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Old Man
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Why does a person seek external validation?

Applying this to an Enneagram type, the 3 stands out most to me:

How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

How easy do you feel your achievements are?



Theorizing about 3s, I don't think they have an internal complimentor. They find their accomplishments easy, because they have done them. The external validation allows them to realize that what they are doing, are actually worth two-shits. They have an internal critic, but not a strong positive force within.

Constantly seeking an identity.

The potential and drive they have, may actually stem from a "hollow" core. Threes accomplish a lot, because they are never satisfied within themselves.

By far, Threes are the most out-of-touch with their emotions in the "heart/feeling/image" triad. If you don't feel you're a solid person, how can that allow one to feel? In the quest for an identity they will compartmentalize emotions for "later", they don't really know themselves yet.

Ironically, emotions get in the way of a three identifying themselves. I find that a 3 takes a long time to mature, they are looking outside when they should be looking inward.

It's rare for someone to feel that they know a 3, always behind a mask.
 

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I've sort of settled on 3 now after weeks of enneagram discussion, but I'm still not necessarily confirmed about it (the other choice is 8 which is ridiculously similar in theory, apparently), so if these answers are what you might consider an anomaly, well, that's why.
Why does a person seek external validation?

Applying this to an Enneagram type, the 3 stands out most to me:

How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?

How important are your achievements to YOU?

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

How easy do you feel your achievements are?[/b]
I can't really think of very much I'm proud of. I mean, if I were to say to someone "I study law" an ordinary person would be impressed; im almost certainly one of the most successful people out of all my friends, but I don't find it a success. My grades were/are a disappointment and I got in by luck, so so far there's not much I have achieved that I'm necessarily proud of; I mean, I conquered self-esteem issues and image issues that I had, but I don't see that as hard... you just do it. People used to be impressed when I told them I travelled alone to a destination 9,000km away when I was 12; well, to me, this wasn't an achievement at all, it was just something that needed to be done (and I still don't see how it is one.)

If I achieve something minor I might think about it for a few days then let go. I don't think I've ever achieved something I considered difficult. However, if people are trying to put down my skills I will always remind them of stuff I've done that's good. I don't feel much pride in my achievements. I have pride in who and what I am.

Theorizing about 3s, I don't think they have an internal complimentor. They find their accomplishments easy, because they have done them. The external validation allows them to realize that what they are doing, are actually worth two-shits. They have an internal critic, but not a strong positive force within.
This is scary, because I often look for external advice because I simply don't know the criteria to which I'm performing. I don't understand how anyone can have an internal complimentor! Surely you must rate your achievements to what is objectively good, not what is subjectively good.

Constantly seeking an identity.
I have an identity... but I also like looking at other identities, identities I find desirable or interesting or novel, and adopting parts of them... actually, I didn't want to be thought of as a 3 for a long time because I don't think its a good image to portray to be without an identity, but then I realised that well, there's no point hiding the truth, and anyway, my reasoning was 3ish in itself... I feel to a large extent my identity is constructed, but I can't even find scraps of any identity below what I've constructed. Does that make me shallow? I hope not. I feel like I have picked and chosen qualities of mine and stuck with them; honesty, generosity, etc etc. Is that part of my identity or is it simply invented? I don't know. I can't really seperate it.

The potential and drive they have, may actually stem from a "hollow" core. Threes accomplish a lot, because they are never satisfied within themselves.
Well I'm never satisfied with my self really... I just also haven't accomplished much yet. I guess this is because enneagram/mbti is designed for adults and I'm still in education.

By far, Threes are the most out-of-touch with their emotions in the "heart/feeling/image" triad. If you don't feel you're a solid person, how can that allow one to feel? In the quest for an identity they will compartmentalize emotions for "later", they don't really know themselves yet.
I don't quite get this.

Ironically, emotions get in the way of a three identifying themselves. I find that a 3 takes a long time to mature, they are looking outside when they should be looking inward.

It's rare for someone to feel that they know a 3, always behind a mask.
I agree.
 

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MOTM July 2010
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How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?
I wish I know how to measure it.

How important are your achievements to YOU?
It shows how much I have improve myself every time. So it is important. Every year I evaluate myself : how many achievements I have done this year?

But I think it is very useful to remind me how worthy I am, that I had give my best contributions to society, that I am NOT nobody. It keeps me confident and proud of myself. It motivate me to continue my success, because they are proofs that everything I did is worthy, and some of them even recognized and validated by society.

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?
I don't dwell on it. They are my reminders that I've done a good job and that I'm not a useless person.

How easy do you feel your achievements are?
It's not easy. It's hard. I have to push myself beyond my own limit to achieve what I have now. Some people said I'm hard on them, but I'm actually harder to myself. Failure is unacceptable, low confident is unacceptable, giving up is unacceptable. I'm technically torturing myself all the time.

The funny thing is, the validations of my achievements always come surprisingly. Like I was nominated as Member of The Month, or my editor call me to say that my second novel is going to be publish in other country this year, etc. I don't even EXPECT it. They just came surprisingly.
 

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It is rather weird. Prior to becoming a member and finding out my type etc I had been thinking about a lot of these things in regard to my traits and why I do things, and it feels rather eerie to know that now I am a part of a "type"...

Why does a person seek external validation?
I find that when I achieve some things, just before I complete it, I stop caring. It is over and I did it. Move on. So I find sometimes I do like to seek that external validation every so often because it reminds me that someone actually cares and that I did something that was really quite good, even though I stopped really caring because I completed it.

How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?
I feel a lot of pride in my achievements, but only certain ones. There are only a small handful of things in my life at the moment that I can genuinely say I feel proud about and I value them highly. Other things that I do well but for fun etc but still achieve in, I find I have to just fake and seem overjoyed, just because if you don't, people think you're unhappy with the result. This is not the case. I merely don't care. It is just something I did for fun. Not competitively or for recognition.


Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

How easy do you feel your achievements are?

I dwell on the handful of achievements that I cherish. But with most of my other achievements I find I cast them aside and move on. (This happened the other day *** I am a particularly sporty person and recently graduated...) Someone asked if in my senior year I had won this award, and that medal for various sports... and I actually couldn't remember... and she was somewhat shocked at the fact that I couldn't remember. I find other people seem to remember my achievements more than I do. I only remember the ones I feel are important to me, which they probably think are blah.

I find that my achievements are easy to achieve, afterwards. Sometimes to the extent that I feel like I am being cocky when people ask. But it is genuinely what I feel. Only recently I have started to think of how my life feels like a movie. In general, everything I want to achieve in life I achieve, gotten without breaking a sweat. All the hardships, in hindsight, weren't hard... (kind of thing)

Pretty much, I am a stereotypical three according to the little blurb below the questions.

By far, Threes are the most out-of-touch with their emotions in the "heart/feeling/image" triad. If you don't feel you're a solid person, how can that allow one to feel? In the quest for an identity they will compartmentalize emotions for "later", they don't really know themselves yet.
I do compartmentalise my emotions for "later"... Though I am not too sure on the whole identity part of the statement...

Sometimes when I feel really overwhelmed, I can just get over it, do what I need to do...
I think after a period of that there is a breaking point for a short while and then I go back to "normal". I also don't miss people. If someone leaves, I know (somehow) that if I really want to see you again I will, in the future. I just can't miss people. Sometimes I might have a little twinge. But for the most part I am blank. I didn't even cry at graduation. At a memorial. When my friends leave "forever". hahaha it's so odd. Kind of feel guilty sometimes when they say they miss me.

Ironically, emotions get in the way of a three identifying themselves...
It's rare for someone to feel that they know a 3, always behind a mask.
This is spot on. Although, I find that people think / feel they know me all the time. People have called me their friends/ besties even, when I do not consider them a friend but rather an acquaintance... I have no idea why....

In general, I find it is easier (not necessarily better) to hide behind a "reputation" than it is to express yourself. Which reiterates my nickname of Ninjaaaa. Although, I do express some feelings to 2 mates so I don't go insane... :crazy:

. I find that a 3 takes a long time to mature, they are looking outside when they should be looking inward.
In which way are you referring to?
 

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Why does a person seek external validation?

Applying this to an Enneagram type, the 3 stands out most to me:

How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

How easy do you feel your achievements are?

I don't feel much when I achieve something if it's not something I see as worthwhile. I feel good when others praise me, but if it's something that doesn't deserve/require praise I just do it because it should be done. So, not that important unless it is.

I don't dwell on them unless they were very very hard to achieve, in which case I think about them a bit and can feel satisfied with them.

A real achievement, to me, is never easy. It requires alot of effort and struggling to get there and then it feels like an achievement.
 
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Old Man
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Discussion Starter #6
Quote:
I find that a 3 takes a long time to mature, they are looking outside when they should be looking inward.

In which way are you referring to?
Part of a 3's "growing up" is a true authenticity, and rather than searching for just an external -immediate- gratification; A 3 should be seeking something within themselves to re-position their authenticity.

Seeking external measures to become authentic can be useful though, as they can help bring out your real self. A problem is ONLY focusing on the outs.



There have been a lot of points in my hobbies, where I will just plateau out . I can see others hopping past these hurdles, because they put something behind it.

A possible reason why 3's fail to acknowledge their accomplishments could be: A 3 never goes in "balls deep" into something, to fully put one's self out there allows for failure, and vulnerability. A 3 likes to sell parts, not the whole.


By far, Threes are the most out-of-touch with their emotions in the "heart/feeling/image" triad. If you don't feel you're a solid person, how can that allow one to feel? In the quest for an identity they will compartmentalize emotions for "later", they don't really know themselves yet.
Having a hollow core (identity issues) associated with being a 3, make's one feel that they are not a complete person. The can't "feel" because they aren't a full person, they are only half, a prototype. They don't think they are ready to have (normal) emotions.

Feelings also just get in the way.
 

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Old Man
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Discussion Starter #7
Updates...


-To be something, you must be nothing.

I don't know if the 3w4 is looking to be more true to themselves, I find that it's an ideal; perhaps they see it more clearly than the 3w2. The less haughty 3w4 is somewhat miss-leading, they have that 4's desire to be set apart.

3w2s want to be the best of pack, they don't really separate themselves from the pack. Whereas the 3w4 inherently knows they are not part of the pack, they show off to the "lessers" re-establish their known superiority. They are haughty in the sense that they already know, the 3w2 is less in-touch with themselves.

I know they say the 3w2 is the more artificial of the 3's, but I suggest it might be the 3w4. The w2 still needs people, they matter at least in some way, the w4 uses them as a sun-roof; not necessary, but provide more light.

-Often, you'll see 3 descriptions (sp mainly), taking pride in materialism.

It ties into "the vanity in no vanity" for me; I don't hoard or keep anything, and at any given time everything I need will fit into a backpack. I could leave the rest with no qualms.

I do enjoy nice things, not because I find them necessary to my being, but because they show something. They are an accessible sign of achievement, and confidence.

I don't know if many 3's actually care about the items they surround themselves in, all they want in the item is the image they provide. Physical objects are just that, it's what they represent.


As these are just collected thought, they aren't really replies to anything.
 

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How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?
My achievements are enormously important, but I self-sabotage because I always end up feeling like I didn't realy achieve them; it was dumb luck, and any moment now someone will notice just what a huge, bleeding fraud I am. See next question for more.

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?
Because I feel like I didn't actually achieve my achievements--I was just very lucky--they become bland and empty to me, which I absolutely hate. I should be proud of the things I've done, but I just can't be. Not only do I not have an internal complimentor, I have an internal voice of crippling self-doubt instead.

How easy do you feel your achievements are?
As I'm working on them? From tricky to easy. Once I've accomplished them? Ridiculously easy, because I had help/I was able to con my through them/I was lucky etc. etc. Nothing I ever accomplish is something I really accomplish.

It's a very distorted perception of personal ability and worth, and I can't decide if it's exacerbated by the lack of an internal validator, or of the lack of internal validator arose because I started buying into these misperceptions. I'm guessing it's a little bit of both, a machine that feeds on itself. And now not only do I have no internal validator, but its shadow has taken over and grown enormously powerful.

I fear failure deeply. So you know what happens? I don't even try anymore. Because if I don't actually try something, I obviously can't fail at it.

Anyone have any pointers on how to cultivate an internal validator? I've found that Mahayana Buddhist philosophies are helpful, but I've been backsliding of late and have been suffering greater anxiety in everything because of it.
 
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How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?
Achievements are the reason to do things. If I don't think I'll succeed and that there's no way to succeed, I'd rather not waste time putting the effort into something. I take great pride in my achievements, but I then instantly think of others who have accomplished even more, and then I'm off to conquer even bigger things.

I think I feel more pride in my achievements when I'm able to accomplish something that others can't, or even when I just do better than others. For example, if I bring my company 5 new clients a month, I'm only happy with myself if all my co-workers brought in much fewer. I like to be distinguished.

But I think the most pride comes from when I do something that people can only envy. Not to sound like a jerkoff, but it's just human nature.

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?
I use the positive energy from my achievements to really fuel my drive. "Success breeds success" is such a truism for me. It kind of "proves" to me that I AM capable. For example, I found out that I scored a 1500/1610 on the GRE...without studying at all. I actually forgot about the exam until an hour prior to it taking place. I'm still happy about it, because it's a pretty major thing.

How easy do you feel your achievements are?
I won't lie. I tend to strive for things that command respect, prestige, and admiration. So by definition, those "achievements" won't be easy, at least for the average person. And yeah, it can be tempting to feel "elite" just because of something you were born with, such as a high IQ or good looks, etc. But that's just luck. However, people admire it all the same, so I can't help but be pleased when someone genuinely compliments something that's even a natural trait of mine.

In fact, I think in some ways it's better, because you can be rest assured that you'll ALWAYS be among the top because nature has seen to it.

OK ok, I sound like an asshole, but whatever. It's my honest truth.
 

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How much pride do you actually feel your achievements? How important are your achievements to YOU?

Tons and none at all at once. I have that core need for them, but at the same time they are never enough. I need more and more, because after a while I fear I have lost my abilities and need to have others validate it again.


Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

Depends on the sort. When it comes to things I know I can do well, I (like you say) think very little of them because of how easy they came to me and need others to remind me (or show me, in some cases) I am talented/competent/capable, or whatever. I am generally seen as a talented pianist, and, terrified of losing this prestige, I could move my audience to tears and still only see the mistakes, however minor, if I was not told my playing was appreciated. When it comes to things I feel I don't have a natural talent for but are dear to my heart, I experience terrible cognitive dissonance. As an NT and a 3, I sort of live to be good at things and accomplish things...even if I am doing something primarily for pleasure, this external success sort of has to be a side effect. So if I even have one or two triumphs in these fields, I tend to relive them a lot (As a kid, however, I did have a tendency to "bask in glory" for a very long time and...well, let's face it, I'm still kind of a ham:tongue:).

How easy do you feel your achievements are?

Depends on the field, but really it isn't the thing that matters. If I am being honest, what matters to me is being recognized for my achievements, whether they came easily to me or not, whether they were natural talents or not.

Theorizing about 3s, I don't think they have an internal complimentor. They find their accomplishments easy, because they have done them. The external validation allows them to realize that what they are doing, are actually worth two-shits. They have an internal critic, but not a strong positive force within.

Like I said above, I definitely agree with this one. Oddly enough, it is harmful in two ways. It causes me to think nothing of my accomplishments even if I have truly done something great, and everything of something mediocre if other people think highly of it.

Constantly seeking an identity.

Yes, this is huge.

The potential and drive they have, may actually stem from a "hollow" core. Threes accomplish a lot, because they are never satisfied within themselves.

To a degree, yes. But I do think there is a bit of active desire to "be something more" in my case at least.

By far, Threes are the most out-of-touch with their emotions in the "heart/feeling/image" triad. If you don't feel you're a solid person, how can that allow one to feel? In the quest for an identity they will compartmentalize emotions for "later", they don't really know themselves yet.

Makes sense that I'm a Thinker in the Jungian system then!:tongue:

Ironically, emotions get in the way of a three identifying themselves. I find that a 3 takes a long time to mature, they are looking outside when they should be looking inward.

Oh, yes...that's been a major learning experience for myself lately.

It's rare for someone to feel that they know a 3, always behind a mask.

Interesting. I have always considered getting to know others a massive accomplishment. Not that is in in everyone's case, I have this preconception that everyone is like me and is always trying to hide their "true selves" (or whatever you want to call it).
 

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I'm a 4w3, but this interested me.

How much pride do you actually feel your achievements?/How important are your achievements to YOU?

I tend to feel a lot of pride in my achievements when others seem impressed by them -- otherwise it doesn't feel like enough and I could always be doing better.

Do you dwell on your achievements, or do you cast them aside and move on?

I kind of cast aside my achievements and move on to the next goals. Sometimes I do remind myself of my achievements to feel a little better about myself.

How easy do you feel your achievements are?

I'm not sure... Kind of in the middle, I guess? Things other people can also achieve, though not always easily. Some of my more personal achievements, though, might be easy for most people, but are personally difficult for me (due to my autism, mental illness, sensory integration issues, etc.)
 
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