[Baphomet]

So I so far I've read that there seems to be a strong connection between Narcissism and INFJ's for two reasons.

The first and most common one is the case that INFJ's seem to be the most likely people to attract narcissists. Two polar opposites, the empath and the anti-empath.

The second one is the more important one. There seems to also be the notion that INFJ's are infact narcissistic? Covert narcissists to be exact. I don't know how it made me feel but I wanted to keep investigating to find out whether I could possibly be a narcissist.

From what I've read the INFJ and the narcissist share a common childhood, that their parents were infact narcissistic. I don't know how common or how true this is for INFJ's but I can atleast say for myself I believed it was true. Perhaps I was too young to really know what a narcissistic parent was. I was around 14 when I sat my mum down and explained to her how I felt about her being narcissistic parent.

As you can see this really took my interest, I wanted to know if I could possibly be a covert narcissist. The covert narcissist can also be known as the introvert narcissist - they differ from the extrovert narcissist in that they don't have the extroverted, aggressive, arrogant, attention seeking qualities that people normally associate with narcissism.

In contrast to the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist,1 the Shy/Covert Narcissist is characterized by vulnerability and sensitivity which manifests itself in defensiveness and hostility. Like the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Shy/Covert Narcissist has grandiose fantasies, feels a sense of entitlement, and is exploitive. However, the Shy/Covert Narcissistic personality is characterized by worry, ineffective functioning, unfulfilled expectations, and vulnerability to stress.
Cooper summarizes the distinguishing features of the Shy/Covert Narcissist as follows:

�Covert narcissistic individuals are those whose fantasies, whether conscious or unconscious, are indeed grandiose, inflated, unrealistic, and self-centered. They may be preoccupied with fantasies of grandiose achievements, imagining themselves as world heroes, centers of attention, and acclaimed by all. However, for one of several dynamic reasons, these fantasies are not expressed in overt behavior and are regarded by the individual consciously as beyond attainment. The grandiose desires are not matched by a conviction of personal efficacy. These individuals are conflicted and guilty over their overweening exhibitionistic, competitive, and aggressive desires, and their defensiveness often leads them to suppress or repress any awareness of the existence of these qualities. Most often, a barrier is imposed by a severe inner conscience that finds these fantasies unacceptable, demanding both that they should be suppressed and that the person should feel guilty for harboring unacceptable wishes. In effect, the superego accurately detects that within these self-inflating ideas lie self-centered, aggrandizing desires to attribute all goodness and power to oneself and relegate all weakness and badness to others, an aspect of the angry envy that probably is involved in the genesis of all narcissistic pathology.

I can definitely relate to this, but to me it seemed asif it's almost natural for a person (especially an introvert) to exhibit this to some extent? so I felt like understanding it wasn't enough to conclude myself as this covert narcissist. Like how would I really know. So I stumbled across the NPA personality theory which sets out to type individuals based on the 3 traits sanguinity(narcissism) (N), perfectionism (P) and aggression (A). I did the test and the results were intersting...

I managed to score very highly on narcissism and highly on perfectionism and very low on other traits, including aggression and temperament. My S score, which is a measure of anxiety, depression or submissiveness in social relations - was 53, which was moderate and apparently that is actually high for an individual but the most common reasons are inhibited aggression or suppressed narcissism and in this case I think it's clearly inhibited aggression.
My type is the Narcissistic-perfectionist type (NP). To be clear here, the measurement of narcissism doesn't necessarily indicate whether or not a person has a narcissistic personality disorder (as they explain it, everyone has each trait to a degree, they are natural traits part of genetic expression) BUT when someone scores very very highly (I'm talking like 100%) and is a dominant type I guess it is an indicator.

This makes me feel that the original conjectures could really be true, atleast for me in this case, but I still need to find out how it relates to INFJs as a whole so I am really curious to see what you guys get in this test, it will help me reach a conclusion about this. I feel like I can't do my work until I nip this itch in the butt.

NPAtest09.xls for PC

NPAtestxx For mobile

Online NPA personality test Information on the theory

http://npatraits.homestead.com/nptype.html Personality types on the left of the page.

The NP description describes me dangerously accurately. There are just certain things about me and I've always wondered why I do it. It's almost asif I really care about you but I also completely don't at the same time. I feel very selfish but everyone will tell me I'm unselfish. When I'm with you, I'm fully with you - but I often choose not to be with you because I'm doing something for myself.

 

[Baphomet]

Fuck I was supposed to do a lecture but I spent 2 hours look at this. (Plus I'm gonna be late for my next one lmao)

 

[Marvin the Dendroid]

Actual confirmed personality disorders are a very different beast from healthy variation within normal personalities.

 

[Baphomet]

Actual confirmed personality disorders are a very different beast from healthy variation within normal personalities.

Interesting.
People throw around the terminology so loosely it get's hard to distinguish but I understand what you mean.
Hmm maybe this isn't what it seems.

 

[Marvin the Dendroid]

Interesting.
People throw around the terminology so loosely it get's hard to distinguish but I understand what you mean.
Hmm maybe this isn't what it seems.

They sure do. For what it's worth, nothing about you online comes across as narcissistic in the least.

Heck, I like attention. I don't often want to ask for it outright. But I sure enjoy it whenever some comes my way, and I've been known to manipulate circumstances to get some. Does that make me a closet narcissist? No. I have plenty of quirks, some of which I want to keep to myself, but none of them would give me any kind of diagnosis in actual psychiatric tests.

 

[Merisela]

I think everyone is somewhat narcissistic, and I definitely relate to the covert narcissism.
Thing is, sometimes I think so highly of myself, then the next moment I do the opposite.
There's a TED talk about psychopathic behavior and it talks about how people are so quick to label someone someway, leaving no room for gray area. You're either a psychopath, or not. You're either narcisissistic (this word is so frustrating to spell lol), or not.
It wouldn't be normal for someone to not be narcisistic at all, I think, and this doesn't just pertain to INFJs. And people could be narcissistic in different ways as well (like you said).
There's a quote that is something like this: if you adopt a dog, you may not change the world, but you are certainly changing the world for that dog.
To a person, their world is centered on them. It would be weird to not be even a bit narcissistic.
It makes sense how introverts are narcissistic differently.. It's like how the different love languages. Different people show/do it in different ways.

 

[Sour Roses]

I have yet to check out these particular links, I will try to come back and do so...

But in the meantime, I read the quoted section, and it doesn't sound much like descriptions of variations in narcissism that I read elsewhere.

I did some research on narcissism a while back, as I was getting frustrated with people over-using the term when narcissism is a serious diagnosis of an extreme personality disorder.

Every girl or guy who posts a picture of her half naked body on social media is not a narcissist, LOL. Some people use the term as if that were the case (not saying you did, just in general this pertains to it's excessive use).

There's a certain DMSO point list that must be checked off to qualify a person as narcissistic.

Among these, whatever the variation of the disorder, is that the person must be "collecting" a circle of power through manipulating people, in order to achieve fulfillment of their ego.

Although it's not very clinical at all and I'm not qualified... I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that my landlord is a narcissist.
It's not because he's an ass, which he is. It's not because he's controlling, which he is. Or that he toots his own horn. Or that he basks in attention. So on & so forth.

It's that he trains people to fulfill himself. He can no more let the people he tries to control go, than they can stand being around him. He feeds on them. He needs them desperately. He needs to push them down lower than him.

He and I do not talk, because the first few times he tried to address my mother negatively in my presence, I came down on him like a ton of bricks. He knows where he stands with me, which is nowhere... as I take nothing he offers, reply in short to-the-point sentences, and give him no attention.


I did read that variations in narcissism exist, but honestly the quote doesn't sound much like what I read before.
The subject of the quote seems like a person battling a very human ego complex. Most of the quote was surrounding that part of it... but many quite mentally healthy people will posses an ego that they don't resist like the subject is described as doing... so it makes me wonder?

 

[Troispoint]

I think having a dominant Ni leads some people to overrate their own intelligence. Having a strong inner world like we have can lead to intense contradictions between what we believe to be so and the exterior world. So I imagine when your subjectivity as an INFJ gets confronted with reality, or contradicting perspectives, it can create a shock that would lead some to cope through narcissism. That's my hypothesis anyway. Narcissism is a defense mechanism, I know that because my father has deep-seeded insecurities that fuels his narcissism. I'm reflective about how that may lead me toward a similar path. The best solution to prevent your own narcissism that I can come up with is being open with perspectives that contradicts yours. And not be too worried about what others thinks.

 

[lavendersnow]

I do think INFJs can be prone to narcissistic traits and I also think we're likely to attract narcissistic people - they leach off those with a lot of empathy, and we have it bucket-loads.

You might find it interesting to consider how people live vicariously through each other. A narcissistic person is likely attracted to an empathetic person because through them, they can get to experience (as close as is possible) what it is like to have a lot of empathy. Granted this might be manifested through tormenting the empathetic person or pushing their buttons to see what kind of reactions they will have - but it's all about complimentary relationships - "I've got what you don't and you want what I have."

Similarly, a meek, quiet or simply reserved INFJ can be attracted to people who are the very opposite of them - loud, confident, assertive and maybe even narcissistic because it's a trait that on the inside they wish they could express within themselves - but perhaps for their Ni-Fe, many would not knowing how socially egregious it would be to air thoughts they already have. So through their partner, they can vicariously experience narcissism.

This is why people tend to be attracted to their opposites in all sorts of things and put up with things from people that they would never do themselves. I think Freud would call it a narcissistic-object choice.

 

[FoggyEyes]

I am familiar with this theory, scored as submissive (read depressive or introverted) NA.
From my observation narcissism is not type related, anyone can be a narcissist.

There is one thing I noticed about Ni doms tho, they tend to be prone to ultimate doubting and self questioning, their self-esteem is very fluctuating.
So without being overt narcissists they are bouncing from total depression to ultimate royally narcissistic outbursts.

Also people misuse it all the way to excuse their own misery like "I am unhappy because I had narcissistic parents or partner".
Hence any individual becomes a narcissist in our eyes at one point of time.

The main target is actually to work our confidence out without emotional swings and validation.

 

[another number]

You sure you didn't misread INTJ?
Jokes aside, NPD is sadistic. INFJs may be somewhat elitist, but our empathic/serving nature gives NPD a resounding disqualification. In my humble (superior) opinion.

 

[master of time and space]

This is so me.

focus: F score 62
Aggression A score16 very low
temperament: T score 14 low
sanguinity / narcissism: N score 47
submissiveness, anxiety, depression S score 88 high
consistency of response to questions: R score 96 excellent
extroversion E score 11 low
statistical consistency C score 87 good

 

[umop 3pisdn]

While I wouldn't say that my personal fantasies are absent grandiosity, I think that actually trying to work in the world and develop my passions and interests, and encountering my limitations in that way, has made my self-concept relatively consistent and grounded.

Hegel has something called the master-slave dialectic, which involves essentially power dynamics, between self-assertion and the preservation of one's life, in a burgeoning self-consciousness. In this abstracted relationship, masters eventually undo themselves through perpetual self-assertion. That is, since slaves simply obey to protect their lives, as the 'other' that stands in relation to the master, they cannot confirm or deny any value in the master's self-assertion. Basically, it's empty obedience, and as a consequence, eventually the master wakes up in a world that is no longer theirs. Slaves, in contrast, end up getting the upper hand, because since their powers are constantly checked, they're motivated to find a sense of value in self-assertion that is more realistic or consistent. Basically, the fact that their powers are restricted, means they tend to eventually ask themselves the question, "what do I really want?"

INFJs, I think, might fall into a weird category in this sort of dialectic. In terms of our internal thinking processes, we're inclined more towards a kind of 'self-assertion', or exerting a kind of mastery over concepts. In the world, we're relatively unequipped to exert any sort of power, we're vulnerable to the world, but instead of accepting that vulnerability, I think we're more inclined to 'opt out', or remain in a more withdrawn attitude, where nothing really exists to 'check' our power. The result of this sort of unchecked self-assertion in our internal space, and an unwillingness to really stake anything in 'external' space, can only be a kind of stultified self-consciousness.

So basically the way out is to go out on a limb, risk and experience inevitable failure, and encounter meaningful opposition or resistance that we don't just navigate around, and thus come to a nuanced understanding of our limitations. It's understandable that we, or anyone, might be hesitant to do that, but Hegel's solution to this power dynamic is basically that we all have to learn to be comfortable being both masters and slaves. In effect, that means being bold enough to identify principles or causes that are meaningful to us, and being humble enough to subjugate ourselves to these principles or causes that are effectively bigger than us, and that involves risk and going outside our Ni-Ti bubble.

 

[with water]

The narcissism you refer may just be a preoccupation with one's Ni.

 

[Baphomet]

Thanks alot for the replies everyone, like really.

The narcissism you refer may just be a preoccupation with one's Ni.

Could you elaborate abit more?

 

[with water]

Thanks alot for the replies everyone, like really.



Could you elaborate abit more?

The compelling nature of Ni is going to give someone an inflated reliance on one's own subjective experience. If one wholeheartedly leans on one's subjective experience first, it could give the impression of narcissism.

Ni is like a well of compelling truities.

 

[Ohndot]

While I wouldn't say that my personal fantasies are absent grandiosity, I think that actually trying to work in the world and develop my passions and interests, and encountering my limitations in that way, has made my self-concept relatively consistent and grounded.

Hegel has something called the master-slave dialectic, which involves essentially power dynamics, between self-assertion and the preservation of one's life, in a burgeoning self-consciousness. In this abstracted relationship, masters eventually undo themselves through perpetual self-assertion. That is, since slaves simply obey to protect their lives, as the 'other' that stands in relation to the master, they cannot confirm or deny any value in the master's self-assertion. Basically, it's empty obedience, and as a consequence, eventually the master wakes up in a world that is no longer theirs. Slaves, in contrast, end up getting the upper hand, because since their powers are constantly checked, they're motivated to find a sense of value in self-assertion that is more realistic or consistent. Basically, the fact that their powers are restricted, means they tend to eventually ask themselves the question, "what do I really want?"

INFJs, I think, might fall into a weird category in this sort of dialectic. In terms of our internal thinking processes, we're inclined more towards a kind of 'self-assertion', or exerting a kind of mastery over concepts. In the world, we're relatively unequipped to exert any sort of power, we're vulnerable to the world, but instead of accepting that vulnerability, I think we're more inclined to 'opt out', or remain in a more withdrawn attitude, where nothing really exists to 'check' our power. The result of this sort of unchecked self-assertion in our internal space, and an unwillingness to really stake anything in 'external' space, can only be a kind of stultified self-consciousness.

So basically the way out is to go out on a limb, risk and experience inevitable failure, and encounter meaningful opposition or resistance that we don't just navigate around, and thus come to a nuanced understanding of our limitations. It's understandable that we, or anyone, might be hesitant to do that, but Hegel's solution to this power dynamic is basically that we all have to learn to be comfortable being both masters and slaves. In effect, that means being bold enough to identify principles or causes that are meaningful to us, and being humble enough to subjugate ourselves to these principles or causes that are effectively bigger than us, and that involves risk and going outside our Ni-Ti bubble.

I can relate to this dynamic happening in my life before, in the form of being the 'newbie' at something. That phase where everyone else is an expert (and may playfully rub it in) and there is more failure than success at something. As the 'slaves' on that side of the dynamic eventually can develop a more developed self-assertion, newbies have an opportunity to develop more discernment in their skill or interest when they recognize just how formative this phase is.

 

[INFJerk]

So I so far I've read that there seems to be a strong connection between Narcissism and INFJ's for two reasons.

The first and most common one is the case that INFJ's seem to be the most likely people to attract narcissists. Two polar opposites, the empath and the anti-empath.

The second one is the more important one. There seems to also be the notion that INFJ's are infact narcissistic? Covert narcissists to be exact. I don't know how it made me feel but I wanted to keep investigating to find out whether I could possibly be a narcissist.

From what I've read the INFJ and the narcissist share a common childhood, that their parents were infact narcissistic. I don't know how common or how true this is for INFJ's but I can atleast say for myself I believed it was true. Perhaps I was too young to really know what a narcissistic parent was. I was around 14 when I sat my mum down and explained to her how I felt about her being narcissistic parent.

As you can see this really took my interest, I wanted to know if I could possibly be a covert narcissist. The covert narcissist can also be known as the introvert narcissist - they differ from the extrovert narcissist in that they don't have the extroverted, aggressive, arrogant, attention seeking qualities that people normally associate with narcissism.



I can definitely relate to this, but to me it seemed asif it's almost natural for a person (especially an introvert) to exhibit this to some extent? so I felt like understanding it wasn't enough to conclude myself as this covert narcissist. Like how would I really know. So I stumbled across the NPA personality theory which sets out to type individuals based on the 3 traits sanguinity(narcissism) (N), perfectionism (P) and aggression (A). I did the test and the results were intersting...

I managed to score very highly on narcissism and highly on perfectionism and very low on other traits, including aggression and temperament. My S score, which is a measure of anxiety, depression or submissiveness in social relations - was 53, which was moderate and apparently that is actually high for an individual but the most common reasons are inhibited aggression or suppressed narcissism and in this case I think it's clearly inhibited aggression.
My type is the Narcissistic-perfectionist type (NP). To be clear here, the measurement of narcissism doesn't necessarily indicate whether or not a person has a narcissistic personality disorder (as they explain it, everyone has each trait to a degree, they are natural traits part of genetic expression) BUT when someone scores very very highly (I'm talking like 100%) and is a dominant type I guess it is an indicator.

This makes me feel that the original conjectures could really be true, atleast for me in this case, but I still need to find out how it relates to INFJs as a whole so I am really curious to see what you guys get in this test, it will help me reach a conclusion about this. I feel like I can't do my work until I nip this itch in the butt.

NPAtest09.xls for PC

NPAtestxx For mobile

Online NPA personality test Information on the theory

Narcissistic-perfectionist personality type Personality types on the left of the page.

The NP description describes me dangerously accurately. There are just certain things about me and I've always wondered why I do it. It's almost asif I really care about you but I also completely don't at the same time. I feel very selfish but everyone will tell me I'm unselfish. When I'm with you, I'm fully with you - but I often choose not to be with you because I'm doing something for myself.
[/QUOTE

So I so far I've read that there seems to be a strong connection between Narcissism and INFJ's for two reasons.

The first and most common one is the case that INFJ's seem to be the most likely people to attract narcissists. Two polar opposites, the empath and the anti-empath.

The second one is the more important one. There seems to also be the notion that INFJ's are infact narcissistic? Covert narcissists to be exact. I don't know how it made me feel but I wanted to keep investigating to find out whether I could possibly be a narcissist.

From what I've read the INFJ and the narcissist share a common childhood, that their parents were infact narcissistic. I don't know how common or how true this is for INFJ's but I can atleast say for myself I believed it was true. Perhaps I was too young to really know what a narcissistic parent was. I was around 14 when I sat my mum down and explained to her how I felt about her being narcissistic parent.

As you can see this really took my interest, I wanted to know if I could possibly be a covert narcissist. The covert narcissist can also be known as the introvert narcissist - they differ from the extrovert narcissist in that they don't have the extroverted, aggressive, arrogant, attention seeking qualities that people normally associate with narcissism.



I can definitely relate to this, but to me it seemed asif it's almost natural for a person (especially an introvert) to exhibit this to some extent? so I felt like understanding it wasn't enough to conclude myself as this covert narcissist. Like how would I really know. So I stumbled across the NPA personality theory which sets out to type individuals based on the 3 traits sanguinity(narcissism) (N), perfectionism (P) and aggression (A). I did the test and the results were intersting...

I managed to score very highly on narcissism and highly on perfectionism and very low on other traits, including aggression and temperament. My S score, which is a measure of anxiety, depression or submissiveness in social relations - was 53, which was moderate and apparently that is actually high for an individual but the most common reasons are inhibited aggression or suppressed narcissism and in this case I think it's clearly inhibited aggression.
My type is the Narcissistic-perfectionist type (NP). To be clear here, the measurement of narcissism doesn't necessarily indicate whether or not a person has a narcissistic personality disorder (as they explain it, everyone has each trait to a degree, they are natural traits part of genetic expression) BUT when someone scores very very highly (I'm talking like 100%) and is a dominant type I guess it is an indicator.

This makes me feel that the original conjectures could really be true, atleast for me in this case, but I still need to find out how it relates to INFJs as a whole so I am really curious to see what you guys get in this test, it will help me reach a conclusion about this. I feel like I can't do my work until I nip this itch in the butt.

NPAtest09.xls for PC

NPAtestxx For mobile

Online NPA personality test Information on the theory

Narcissistic-perfectionist personality type Personality types on the left of the page.

The NP description describes me dangerously accurately. There are just certain things about me and I've always wondered why I do it. It's almost asif I really care about you but I also completely don't at the same time. I feel very selfish but everyone will tell me I'm unselfish. When I'm with you, I'm fully with you - but I often choose not to be with you because I'm doing something for myself.

wow. I feel exactly like that. I am a female and I test INFJ every time. I’ve gotten very honest with myself about who I am, unflattering aspects especially. I suspected myself to be confused about the real source of my ‘sensitivities”. It seems like we’ve conflated the empath with the INFJ, and some seem shocked that we have narcissistic traits, but I’m starting to realize many of us do. I took the test. NP as well, and like you, it’s starling how accurate the NP description is relative to my personality. I know exactly what you mean when you describe caring deeply yet not caring at all.

 

[Kelly Kapowski]

wow. I feel exactly like that. I am a female and I test INFJ every time. I’ve gotten very honest with myself about who I am, unflattering aspects especially. I suspected myself to be confused about the real source of my ‘sensitivities”. It seems like we’ve conflated the empath with the INFJ, and some seem shocked that we have narcissistic traits, but I’m starting to realize many of us do. I took the test. NP as well, and like you, it’s starling how accurate the NP description is relative to my personality. I know exactly what you mean when you describe caring deeply yet not caring at all.

Interesting. I took the quiz & tested as NP as well. Haven’t read through the description much yet, but I do relate to this👇from Baphmet’s post as well. Also FYI, this post is from 2017, so you prob won’t get a response from Baphomet. But maybe! Maybe they will get a notif & shall be summoned back to PerC P O S T H A S T E. 😊 I joined in 2018, and the name is unfamiliar to me. ALSO ALSO welcome to PerC!


It's almost asif I really care about you but I also completely don't at the same time. I feel very selfish but everyone will tell me I'm unselfish. When I'm with you, I'm fully with you - but I often choose not to be with you because I'm doing something for myself.

 

[Faery]

I think narcissists and INFJs have the same core wound. The INFJ can understand and see the inner self that has been rejected and denied, and ultimately they can destroy themselves trying to awaken the soul in the narcissist. I think narcissists are attracted to INFJs and empathetic/vulnerable people because what they are on the outside is exactly what the narcissist is on the inside (vulnerable, sensitive, hurt). The way each goes about handling their vulnerability is the opposite. It's true a part of me admires narcissists for their ability to detach and sustain an inner cold to avoid pain. It's self-preservation taken to the extreme. I've wished for this invulnerability and have tried to attain it in some of my darkest moments.