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I've been pondering this notion that a lot of nuance in thought and perception has been lost due to the information age not just in sociocultural and political but deeper still into how humanity has started conceptualizing its need for companionship and relationships. Mainly as a side effect of the overburdening of processing such a large amount of information.

Going by this article I found(which I shamelessly borrowed the title from) it brings up some interesting and in my view accurate points which I hope can be discussed.

The full article is here https://goodmenproject.com/sex-relationships/the-one-thing-men-want-more-than-sex-wcz/

Here are some excerpts
So, what do men want more than sex? We’ve all heard that women need to feel loved to have sex, but men need to have sex to feel loved. Let’s look more deeply at what it is exactly that men are getting when they get sex. Sure, there is the physical pleasure, but there is a deeper need that is being satisfied. I call it the need for a safe harbor.
It takes a lot of time and maturity for men to admit to themselves that they need a safe harbor where they can be nurtured and embraced by a woman. It takes a lot of courage to let his woman know he may want sex, but more important is his need for security, love, and nurture. It requires a level of wisdom to know that allowing ourselves to be as vulnerable as a child may be the manliest thing a man can do.
 

The world of men is a world of competition. On the most basic level, males compete with other males for access to the most desirable females. Males make the advances and females decide which males they will accept.
By the time we become adults, we’ve already been battered and bruised by the world of competition and rejection. We long for that safe harbor where we don’t have to pretend to be something we’re not in order to be chosen. We long for someone who sees us for who we are and wants us anyway, who can hold us and touch, not just our body, but our hearts and souls.
“Always wanting sex” is part of the male persona we wear to show we’re manly. What we really want is a safe harbor where we can take refuge, relax, and be cared for. In other words, we want the feeling of being nurtured that most of us didn’t get enough of when we were children. But admitting these needs makes us feel like little boys, not big strong men. Better to be manly with our sexual desire and then once we’re inside her body, we can relax, be ourselves, and be infused with love. That’s the hidden desire we have when we have sex.
So for the men out there do you find this accurate? Or do you feel the need to constantly maintain a rigid manly persona and always be treated as such?

Does a desire to be emotionally cared for and have one's emotional vulnerabilities accepted and respected by a partner hold a high place in one's desire? Or does the need to be a strong pillar of support and essentially fully embrace a purely manly persona be what you strive for?


In terms of women in relation to this the article focuses on that as well
Just as it’s difficult for men to ask to be held, nurtured, and touched; it’s often difficult for women to give that kind of intimacy. There are three main reasons,
 

  • First, women have their own conditioning about men being men. If he doesn’t want sex, they worry that they may not be attractive enough.
  • Second, a man wanting to be held and nurtured, triggers feelings that they are dealing with a boy, not a man. I can’t tell you how many clients I have who say things like “It’s like I’ve got three children in the house. There’s our two sons, and then there’s my husband.” Women want a man, but worry they have another little boy.
  • Third, women fear men who don’t feel manly. They know that the most violent men are men who feel weak and powerless. They’ve often had experiences of men allowing themselves to be gentle and vulnerable, only to have them respond with anger and rage later.
 

Personally I find that the perception that emotional vulnerability being tied to volatility is a faulty one. The most violent men I have had the unfortunate luck of coming across are those that contort their vulnerability to garner favor and simultaneously do not express proper emotion and instead become highly volatile and uncontrolled in their emotion when things do not go their way(not unlike a small child) that then leads to the violence.

But it can be understood why that perception forms as a truly vulnerable man who has the capacity to express themselves emotionally while simultaneously having great control over their emotional self is not dissimilar by initial perception to the more volatile types who have poor character traits overall.


For a woman, she must also go beyond her own conditioning and be open to a man who is making himself vulnerable in new ways. She must have a great deal of self-love and self-confidence to accept being a safe harbor. She must also have the strength to protect herself, when his shame at being vulnerable turns to anxiety, anger, or depression. It isn’t easy for men and women to take these kinds of risks, but the payoff is a life-time of deepening love and intimacy.

For the women do you find this to be true in attraction and relationships? Do you tend to gravitate away from men who showcase emotional vulnerability for fear of having to deal with what is perceived as a childlike manner?

Does a desire to be loved, cared for and supported by a strong and resilient man who is stoic in their manner or at the very least someone who embodies the stereotypical masculine self take precedent?
 

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I feel like every [exaggeration] woman out there who's been in a serious relationship knows that this is true. But maybe it's just me, and how I view life. It just seems obvious to me. I'm not a very social person but the men I've known and been closer to seek that vulnerability with me. And this has happened even when not in a relationship, because generally people open up to me.
But yea I think men tend to hide that need between them and mostly express it to their women. They also tend to hide it from themselves as well, depending on the case.
 

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I think there's a lot of truth here.

I don't believe I was ever actively coached into repressing feelings or hiding vulnerability - the best I can describe it is as instinctual. It just happened. Male pride is very real.

However, there is a warm comfort that *typically* a woman can offer that is deeply soothing to the soul. We're often painted as patriarchal monsters these days but honestly, its a relationship of equals for most of us I'd wager - certainly in my experience. And it's an equal that coaxes parts of you out that you'd never bare to a friend or a colleague.

It's a trust thing I suppose - we feel more comfortable exposing our emotional throats to a lover than to pretty much anyone else. We're rewarded for it whereas instinct or experience tell us we will be punished for doing so elsewhere.

Think of all the stuff we do for attention, all the songs written (mostly about women), all the paintings - it's pretty clear the high value most of us place on our significant others.

While I don't like to place undue pressure on anyone through idealisation nor suggest anyone should be confined a role they don't want - I will confess that this very soothing and feminine kind of comfort - warm, soft skin - nice smell - gentle voice and genuine concern for me and how I'm doing.. and yes, good sex.. that is all priceless to me.

It'll turn a terrible day right around, it'll lift a weight from my shoulders or extinguish some anger I've been carrying around all day over something stupid and insignificant.
 
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The One Thing Men Want More Than Sex
This is a complex topic, it can grow pages and pages. As we grow old sex becomes easier and easier to get, that doesn't mean we are always having sex (that says something), we start liking some special style of sex, like more direct perhaps, or specific expressions of affection, etc, this means wanting or not, some types of sex might not be welcome, our taste becomes more and more specific, some men start talking in bed, some don't.

As we grow old you start hearing more and more concepts like trust, caring and loyalty. Then you see more men become more aware of how unbalanced relationships can be: I hear your problems you don't hear mine, I understand your difficulties you don't understand mine, etc. Sex is good, yes, but sex is not at the top of needs or wants. It's been discussed long enough elsewhere (I haven't seen this type of thread here but anyway) it's been discussed long enough how most women think men always want sex and won't ever reject a woman approaching with free sex, damn, we can reject sex, we can stay away from certain people offering sex, we can even have sex without fully want it.

Besides, the title says "want", but the concept "need" also has a big role here. Many mean in fact walk away from relationships because they don't feel understood, or think the relationship lacks loyalty. Loyalty? I've discussed this term for years with fellow men and women in my region until I got bored, it seems women don't really understand loyalty, instead they hold to "fidelity", while we men understand both, but put more weight on loyalty. In many conversations women even stopped mentioning the term while having the discussion, men on the other side mentioned both concepts, liking or not, but expresses their understanding of both.

The trial of fire is when the man looses his job, vs when the woman does. There you can see a lot of things about loyalty, caring, support, etc. There are men who can have sex with a wooden block, many in fact will tell you openly you can't expect loyalty from a woman because they only care about what they want. I disagree, it's two separate worlds, the men who want a human relationship and the pigs who gave up. At the end of the day, caring, understanding, emotional vulnerability or emotional understanding, security, acceptance, support, etc, are things achieved more and more outside the bed and outside sex.
 

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So for the men out there do you find this accurate? Or do you feel the need to constantly maintain a rigid manly persona and always be treated as such?

Does a desire to be emotionally cared for and have one's emotional vulnerabilities accepted and respected by a partner hold a high place in one's desire? Or does the need to be a strong pillar of support and essentially fully embrace a purely manly persona be what you strive for?
I would agree with the general thesis of the article, not that much with details, but I can believe that the details may be true for the most.

I have never accepted the premises author cites as the starting point. I have not really competed with other man in such a manner. I have never played the manly facade (as I dislike any facade). I do not need woman to care for 'my hurt soul', because I tend to live in harmony with others and the world already. If anything a woman the man loves could have the sharpest dagger to pierce his hearth with.

However I do appreciate a gentle soul anyway, because what I seek is a companionship, mutual understanding and quite frankly a space to employ the gentleness in me. I like when person can be in touch with inner child, because it brings Si-Fe out of me. Usually it is connected with sense of vitality, joy and creativity which is sometimes hard to come by. And also a sense of uncompromising personal ideals without childish attempt to push those on others.

Maybe for some women represent more of a harbor, for some more a lighthouse/bright star if I d'use a naval metaphor.
 

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Maybe, I don't know.

A little encouragement and rationalisation of my thoughts when they're distorted 9oes a lon9 way. That would definitely 9ive me the feels and appreciation towards a partner. I can't stress enou9h how important that is.
 

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I wish sex and lust wouldn't exist.
 

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I wish sex and lust wouldn't exist.
It's complex and troublesome at times but to be fair, we wouldn't be here to have this discussion if it didn't.
 

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This is a complex topic, it can grow pages and pages. As we grow old sex becomes easier and easier to get, that doesn't mean we are always having sex (that says something), we start liking some special style of sex, like more direct perhaps, or specific expressions of affection, etc, this means wanting or not, some types of sex might not be welcome, our taste becomes more and more specific, some men start talking in bed, some don't.

As we grow old you start hearing more and more concepts like trust, caring and loyalty. Then you see more men become more aware of how unbalanced relationships can be: I hear your problems you don't hear mine, I understand your difficulties you don't understand mine, etc. Sex is good, yes, but sex is not at the top of needs or wants. It's been discussed long enough elsewhere (I haven't seen this type of thread here but anyway) it's been discussed long enough how most women think men always want sex and won't ever reject a woman approaching with free sex, damn, we can reject sex, we can stay away from certain people offering sex, we can even have sex without fully want it.

Besides, the title says "want", but the concept "need" also has a big role here. Many mean in fact walk away from relationships because they don't feel understood, or think the relationship lacks loyalty. Loyalty? I've discussed this term for years with fellow men and women in my region until I got bored, it seems women don't really understand loyalty, instead they hold to "fidelity", while we men understand both, but put more weight on loyalty. In many conversations women even stopped mentioning the term while having the discussion, men on the other side mentioned both concepts, liking or not, but expresses their understanding of both.

The trial of fire is when the man looses his job, vs when the woman does. There you can see a lot of things about loyalty, caring, support, etc. There are men who can have sex with a wooden block, many in fact will tell you openly you can't expect loyalty from a woman because they only care about what they want. I disagree, it's two separate worlds, the men who want a human relationship and the pigs who gave up. At the end of the day, caring, understanding, emotional vulnerability or emotional understanding, security, acceptance, support, etc, are things achieved more and more outside the bed and outside sex.
It is interesting, isn't it?

One of the most common dynamics you see - so much of that it's a comedy trope at this point - is that of the woman constantly "reevaluating the relationship" (reevaluating him) and the man constantly looking to meet her expectations so he can be done with her reevaluating to get his peace and quiet.

This is something we take for granted but it isn't naturally obvious, there's no real reason he shouldn't be the one to reevaluate their relationship (reevaluating her), in fact if she does this and shit tests to abusive/destructive extents, the simplest reevaluation would show that most other women would be a better prospect for him, making reevaluation a more reasonable choice. But he isn't looking for that, he is looking for a place to rest from the never ending horse race. And yet, at that point she is no longer his safe harbor, she becomes that which he needs safe harbor from.

I don't think this is true for all women, a lack in a self-aware concept for loyalty, I have the freedom to just stick with men if I am ever convinced it is the case, and I choose not too, but I also recognize that it would be the exception rather than the rule.
 

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It is interesting, isn't it?

One of the most common dynamics you see - so much of that it's a comedy trope at this point - is that of the woman constantly "reevaluating the relationship" (reevaluating him) and the man constantly looking to meet her expectations so he can be done with her reevaluating to get his peace and quiet.

This is something we take for granted but it isn't naturally obvious, there's no real reason he shouldn't be the one to reevaluate their relationship (reevaluating her), in fact if she does this and shit tests to abusive/destructive extents, the simplest reevaluation would show that most other women would be a better prospect for him, making reevaluation a more reasonable choice. But he isn't looking for that, he is looking for a place to rest from the never ending horse race. And yet, at that point she is no longer his safe harbor, she becomes that which he needs safe harbor from.

I don't think this is true for all women, a lack in a self-aware concept for loyalty, I have the freedom to just stick with men if I am ever convinced it is the case, and I choose not too, but I also recognize that it would be the exception rather than the rule.
That was an excellent choice of words, nice wording.

There is a thread around here (last year perhaps) approaching a bit of emotional understanding/support towards men. The point is, many men in fact show great appreciation towards mafia films, why? "I'm there for you, you there for me, just say the day, the place, I'll be there. It doesn't matter if we disagree on some things, it doesn't matter if I punched you in the face last month or you punched my face, it's not like I owe you something but there is honor, loyalty, a word to be kept". In fact we men can show great respect towards the attitude of enemies among themselves when there is respect, truce, etc.

It's no surprise things can be different depending culture and region, but it's no surprise women approach relationship from the "me" perspective, all for them, in fact... what the fuck from the start the man has to prove worth of her attention or caring, it's a one sided show most times. What does this has to do with the topic? in most cases men choose their partner and LATER expect loyalty or understanding, in fact many don't expect this AT ALL. To me, a social or cultural trend is something, but doesn't mean it's a rule or that we should give up on human stuff, human... stuff.
 

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For the women do you find this to be true in attraction and relationships?
I feel like some of the things said about men can apply to many women as well. Such as this part:

"In other words, we want the feeling of being nurtured that most of us didn’t get enough of when we were children. But admitting these needs makes us feel like little boys, not big strong men. Better to be manly with our sexual desire and then once we’re inside her body, we can relax, be ourselves, and be infused with love. That’s the hidden desire we have when we have sex."

I don't think anyone (male or female) should ever kill their inner child. I for one, regularly embrace mine and it takes vulnerability to expose that side of yourself in a relationship even being a female. Mostly because I'm used to being in control and taking charge. It can be hard for me to let my guard down in that way.

So yeah, I'd say it depends on the individual too but I also recognize that men are socialized differently from women and I wouldn't deny that. I actually related to this part more than the woman's but that's just me:

"but men need to have sex to feel loved."

Maybe it's because physical touch is my secondary love language (though that doesn't just apply to sex, obviously). Physical touch makes me feel especially cherished, loved and desired and just grounded in general as I can be very much inside my own head and forget I have a body lol. It makes me feel alive to touch and be touched. I see sex as being a very spiritual experience though when you do it with someone you love.

Do you tend to gravitate away from men who showcase emotional vulnerability for fear of having to deal with what is perceived as a childlike manner?
When I'm in a bad place myself it is harder for me to handle it for sure so I agree with the article that it takes strength to be able to support someone in that way. But when I'm in a good place, it's just fine. No big deal. Ideally, we take turns. Today you're the strong one and the next day I'm the strong one. I may not always do a great job, but I will work on improving! At least, this is how it works in my marriage.



Does a desire to be loved, cared for and supported by a strong and resilient man who is stoic in their manner or at the very least someone who embodies the stereotypical masculine self take precedent?
I'd be wary of someone who is stoic all the time (what are they hiding?) not to mention that sounds terribly robotic and boring. Give me intensity and passion. Also, I hate how anger is villified so much. It's just an emotion. It's not inherently bad. Someone who isn't afraid to be emotionally expressive and is actually in tune with their emotions is much preferred over someone who buries them but it comes out passive aggressively in other ways because, we're all human and it will come out eventually in one way or another.
 
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That was an excellent choice of words, nice wording.

There is a thread around here (last year perhaps) approaching a bit of emotional understanding/support towards men. The point is, many men in fact show great appreciation towards mafia films, why? "I'm there for you, you there for me, just say the day, the place, I'll be there. It doesn't matter if we disagree on some things, it doesn't matter if I punched you in the face last month or you punched my face, it's not like I owe you something but there is honor, loyalty, a word to be kept". In fact we men can show great respect towards the attitude of enemies among themselves when there is respect, truce, etc.

It's no surprise things can be different depending culture and region, but it's no surprise women approach relationship from the "me" perspective, all for them, in fact... what the fuck from the start the man has to prove worth of her attention or caring, it's a one sided show most times. What does this has to do with the topic? in most cases men choose their partner and LATER expect loyalty or understanding, in fact many don't expect this AT ALL. To me, a social or cultural trend is something, but doesn't mean it's a rule or that we should give up on human stuff, human... stuff.
I feel like what you say directly contradicts the notion that "women don't know what they want" and the fairly common experience of young girls (usually teens) giving all they can to their boyfriends to the point of hurt. On the other hand maybe those bad early experiences become what you see in older women as selfishness. From my memories, teen boys are generally perceived by teen girls as very selfish and wanting nothing but sex, which naturally creates the need to have them prove themselves as not being that.
 

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That was an excellent choice of words, nice wording.

There is a thread around here (last year perhaps) approaching a bit of emotional understanding/support towards men. The point is, many men in fact show great appreciation towards mafia films, why? "I'm there for you, you there for me, just say the day, the place, I'll be there. It doesn't matter if we disagree on some things, it doesn't matter if I punched you in the face last month or you punched my face, it's not like I owe you something but there is honor, loyalty, a word to be kept". In fact we men can show great respect towards the attitude of enemies among themselves when there is respect, truce, etc.
There is truth in that - the Godfather is very much an idealization of the male inter-group hierarchy.

It's no surprise things can be different depending culture and region, but it's no surprise women approach relationship from the "me" perspective, all for them, in fact... what the fuck from the start the man has to prove worth of her attention or caring, it's a one sided show most times. What does this has to do with the topic? in most cases men choose their partner and LATER expect loyalty or understanding, in fact many don't expect this AT ALL. To me, a social or cultural trend is something, but doesn't mean it's a rule or that we should give up on human stuff, human... stuff.
I think this is to some extent an extension of modern life, which in itself is positive, but it's has consequences ,and this is a consequence we haven't really learned how to deal this with. In a more natural state, there is an exchange in the infantile aspects of our being - men act as children in looking for safe harbor, women act as children in looking for protection, we both in some ways become the other's parent. When we empowered the state to be main defender from violence, we also empowered the state to be the main defender of women. It did a good job - violence has being reduced over the years by significant amount and most of the people alive today can thank society for doing just that - but we need to learn what it means to us on an instinctive level, and how do we deal with the consequences of that.

My feelings are that MGTOW and sexbots and Japanese anime girlfriends, are not a good answer to that.
 

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For the women do you find this to be true in attraction and relationships? Do you tend to gravitate away from men who showcase emotional vulnerability for fear of having to deal with what is perceived as a childlike manner?
Having to feel loved before sex? - yes. I wouldn't unless I wanted a relationship with them. I don't understand one night stands or hooking up with someone you just met. It's quite bizarre that people do this tbh!

There's nothing wrong with showing emotional vulnerability, because this suggests a more open and communicative relationship. I can see the appeal in a stoic person, but if lack of expression and not knowing what is on his mind would put me off.

A person with a childlike manner doesn't seem attractive. I tend to be interested in people who are older than me for some reason.

Does a desire to be loved, cared for and supported by a strong and resilient man who is stoic in their manner or at the very least someone who embodies the stereotypical masculine self take precedent?
Yes (because i'm needy :D), but I wouldn't want it to be one sided. In relationships I also want to support them in return. Stereo typically masculine - maybe, because this means they will be willing to initiate (which is a typically male thing). I like guys who show confidence and decisiveness, probably because these are traits I'm lacking in.
 

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I feel like what you say directly contradicts the notion that "women don't know what they want" and the fairly common experience of young girls (usually teens) giving all they can to their boyfriends to the point of hurt. On the other hand maybe those bad early experiences become what you see in older women as selfishness. From my memories, teen boys are generally perceived by teen girls as very selfish and wanting nothing but sex, which naturally creates the need to have them prove themselves as not being that.
I'm in a hurry right now, didn't quite get what you mean, I'm confused. Sure have a tendency to believe women are not 100% sure of what they want and I have many reasons to believe so, nobody is 100% sure of what they are doing or want, there are good films about that thing of "careful what you want etc" but this is different, there are many approaches to test it out, regarding women in particular... all it takes is giving them what they want, then you learn a few consequences. Related or not, I opened a thread on another forum ending in some kind of war... are women actually capable of being happy? wow, that was amazing, many in diff countries will protest on anything even if they get it, even some women said that was a good discussion point, and many others came in flames, I remember posting something like "why so mad if you are so happy" and they got even worse.

As for proving yourself worth of a woman, it's well known in diff cultures and countries. I like the tribes that apply the same to both, the wife and husband, that's fair, it's not about just one person. In some regions is only about the woman.

About the centra point of discussion I've been refering to this as chapters in life. Example many friends got the wife they wanted, only to find out they are no good for certain important chapters of life and NOW they know how important loyalty is. There are cases where divorce happened and the woman, helped by the local law, took every thing from home (even not really needing it), the reasons for divorce are not exactly important (is easy to spread the words: the man did something wrong), I had difficulties discussing this but over the years, the same woman who fought it evolved on being a bit more objective (one exGF, one woman I dated and a long time friend, all women, all lawyers-attorneys, now aware women are not always victims, now aware many, most... turn divorce into a punishment game).

In my country regarding getting married there is a saying: you kill yourself with your own hand, meaning you choose your own solution of problem. I believe many men slowly evolve to see beyond beauty, looks, at the end the worst feeling of loneliness if not having a meaningful connection and we all are vulnerable to that. Sorry I'm in a hurry perhaps I didn't use the best words.
 

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sex drive is a primitive instinct to ensure the survival of the species
modern society plus the constant bombardment of electronic media/ print have made sex easier to obtain
and is used as a consumer tool
the only thing this INTJ xy chromosome wants more than sex is intellectual conversation and books
 

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'Safe harbor' is not something I seek from a woman nor is it a role I would want to impose on a woman. I would want her to be that for our children but I don't feel like there's anything in me which would want her to be that for me.

I don't see it as particularly 'courageous' or 'mature' or 'wise' or 'the manliest thing a man can do' to seek safe harbor from a woman.

Generally I see that kind of attitude as regressive. Nostalgia for the mother, infantile longing for unconsciousness and self-dissolution, longing to be free of the burdens and difficult tasks of life, etc... I can understand how a man might find himself in that position but I don't see that as a developmental end-point or the height of manliness.

It's totally understandable to me why a woman might be put off by such an attitude. "Let me crawl back up inside your womb and die." I don't think she's mistaken in recognizing such an attitude as belonging to a boy and not to a man.
 

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Feist's cover of 'Inside and Out' popped into my head while reading this:

Too many lovers in one lifetime
Ain't good for you
You treat me like a vision in the night
Someone there to stand behind you
When your world ain't working right

I ain't no vision, I am the girl
Who loves you inside and out
There's your "safe harbor," but I don't see the self-confidence. The set-up the author created seems like a repeat of women being the receiver but trying to buff it up by claiming it's a courageous act to be someone's emotional crutch.

I like men that feel comfortable with their emotions enough to display them. That being said, I'm not into coddling men. The line between vulnerability and childishness isn't that thin. Feeling like someone's mother is not sexy, which makes the difference very clear.
 

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'Safe harbor' is not something I seek from a woman nor is it a role I would want to impose on a woman. I would want her to be that for our children but I don't feel like there's anything in me which would want her to be that for me.

I don't see it as particularly 'courageous' or 'mature' or 'wise' or 'the manliest thing a man can do' to seek safe harbor from a woman.

Generally I see that kind of attitude as regressive. Nostalgia for the mother, infantile longing for unconsciousness and self-dissolution, longing to be free of the burdens and difficult tasks of life, etc... I can understand how a man might find himself in that position but I don't see that as a developmental end-point or the height of manliness.

It's totally understandable to me why a woman might be put off by such an attitude. "Let me crawl back up inside your womb and die." I don't think she's mistaken in recognizing such an attitude as belonging to a boy and not to a man.
I strongly disagree. Perhaps I'm lost in translation because English is not my first language, and I know "safe harbor" can mean something different to people in specific areas, of what it means to me from a direct translation, why? certain words and phrases have cultural meaning too, so I'm open to this as what could be the key factor on not agreeing.

Manly... I already lost count of the men (friends, family or just people I know) who talk about "manly" attitudes or manliness, but that I can see with my own eyes their families make them eat shit , they treat them like shit!!!. It's difficult not to see the trend, the numbers, the coincidences. I have so... so many stories, testimonials of people I know from close distance, this is so much that me, someone who comes from a military style school and a martial arts background, couldn't help at one point or another to say "STOP, you are a fucking looser and you keep talking to me about mainly things?" I mean I now them, and your post reminds me of them (not saying you are one of those cases, just that I take the chance to make something clear).

What? yes, denial and compensation. Your wife treats you like shit? sure, shit I mean noooo she doesn't treat me like shit I'm man, man enough to go on and carry on, not to care about it, we men, real men react to this becoming more manly, more strong, you know. No, if someone owes you respect is your own family (and I'm not talking about owing as something they have to pay you just because, I mean nobody should disrespect you at your own home).

"Fuck you", is what I started to say already. My uncle is a big preacher of this and my last conversation with him was about giving away his 2 guns because anyway his wife treats him like fucking shit, so much for his fucking talks about being a man, never in my life I've seen him or others in that group behave like a man, it's just words. And I added: it takes a lot of courage to recognize and accept that your family treats you like shit. That's manly, talking about reality and calling things by their name.

Safe harbor? to my perspective, again non English native, is something two persons can do for each other, no shame in it, it's basic stuff, nobody owns nobody anything, but it's loyalty, it's the right thing to do, it's a manly thing to do... because not asking something from your wife... (and leaving it be) that's what someone full of fear does regardless of being a man or a woman, genderless, it's the human thing. I've said this to my uncle and other "so mother fucking manly guys" armed with fucking guns and they couldn't do anything else but lower their fucking head.

Again, this is not addressed to you, or that you are this type of person, and I don't know you, but the wording reminded me of people who at the end of the month (not even the end of the day) won't do anything they say to be manly. I know many mean talk about manly things in relationships as the fact of being neglected and not complaining about it, yes that's what they call manly!!!. To them aldready said: you better buy some bullets of I will buy them for you so you can put the gun at your head... otherwise your gun is useless.

The thing is, words are easy to say as long as people don't know the details of your life.

As for wanting safe harbor for your children only, that's denying yourself the right to something you you should get too, and in terms of relationships, giving up on something is not a good idea, that's in fact the beginning of a loosing spiral.

As for children... and harbor... damn my uncle talks the same!! then on other conversations he complains about his wife having entirely domination of the children education (he is like 75 years old today), so, he is fine with giving his wife enough space and then complains about the results, complains? no, as soon as you let him know there is something wrong, he changes the subject and says is not an accident, is in fact "just the way it suppose to be, it's the way I want it to be".

At the end of those conversations only one thing is clear: he will jump from concept to concept (even if those concepts don't make any sense) only trying to talk about manly things, he is just focused on appearing manly, and he repeats the word again and again, that... to me... that is a regression, to a state of a child that wants to appear as a man, but doesn't act accordingly. Is not just about my uncle, this attitude is well described, well shaped, very clear in many men I know.
 
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