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I had it pointed out to me that I seem to exhibit a push pull reaction to relationships: not just romantic ones, but all relationships.

It's like I always have one foot facing the other way and one side of my heart ready to grow cold at a moments notice. People might attribute it to the "INFJ doorslam", but I'm thinking it's more than that with me. Like, I want people around, and if someone has not done me any wrong, I always go back to them, but then I wanna leave again.

I think with me, part of it, is I don't feel the slightest amount of confidence in social situations, so I"m always thinking I just did some unforgivable gaffe, so I leave before I give people a chance to judge or reject me, because I have a really long history of people doing both.

I think a lot of this started with my brother though. When I was between 7 and 13, my brother abused me both sexually and emotionally and talked to me, often in a way that was completely dehumanizing. I hated him, but I felt like I wasn't allowed to. He was a charming person, so he always had friends and I always grew up with this feeling if he "didn't have his mental illness" he'd be the golden child; my parents would lament about that a lot, about the illness and what a great child he was before it. Except, I'm no longer convinced it was merely schizophrenia, as the psych's diagnosed. My counselor planted the seed in my mind that he might actually be anti-social. It was after that that everything dawned on me, how we would make these grandiose sweeping statements only to state another grandiose sweeping statement that would contradict it soon after. It's like everything he said was, somehow scripted, if it makes sense. I don't recall a time when he elicited a sentiment that was entirely spontanious that didn't display some awkwardness to it. His socialization was made up of "isms" that he would repeat over and over again, or quoting TV shows/movies he liked. The only genuine emotion I ever saw him have was rage/wrath over a slight or wrong to him. Everything else was just so, designed to elicit praise from others.

Anyway, I'm going back to this, because he was charming. Everyone who would meet him would be charmed by him. He's an attractive person, too, which helps. He had friends and a support group, and I always subconsciously believed that if it weren't for what he did--if mom didn't catch it during the act--he'd probably be the favored child. Not saying, he's not a bad person. He's done really good things, and helped us out. But, he also likes looking good to others, so the good things he's done might be sincerely motivated, but I can't really tell; I guess it's pointless to speculate anyway. But my point is, is I felt like I was always in a precarious situation where I would just end up all alone. In school, I would face a lot of rejection from my classmates, and, after 9 years in one school, didn't really make any friends til I was in my last year. Then, when I moved "down the bayou" I would face more judgmental attitudes, particularly from young married ladies, who were well supported financially and could not possibly understand my situation.

The last two paragraphs are just a digression to lay out my background, because I haven't been in many romantic relationships, and haven't had many good friends and even fewer best friends. The rare time I do, I either panic at the slightest provocation or I forget they exist for days at a time. I either resort to the "I'm used to being alone" or sense something and reject people before they have a chance to reject me.

I think this is mostly a vent, but I really want to change this.
 

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understand your attachment style.
do the test here: Attachment Styles and Close Relationships

the door slam and poor attachment style mean that relationships are twice as difficult for some of us

If a person is able, during this long process, to
experience that he was never "loved" as a child for what
he was but for his achievements, success, and good qualities,
and that he sacrificed his childhood for this "love,"
this will shake him very deeply but one day he will feel the
desire to end this courtship. He will discover in himself a
need to live according to his "true self" and no longer be
forced to earn love, a love that at root, still leaves him
empty-handed since it is given to the "false self," which he
has begun to relinquish.
 

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Anyway, I'm going back to this, because he was charming. Everyone who would meet him would be charmed by him. He's an attractive person, too, which helps. He had friends and a support group, and I always subconsciously believed that if it weren't for what he did--if mom didn't catch it during the act--he'd probably be the favored child. Not saying, he's not a bad person. He's done really good things, and helped us out. But, he also likes looking good to others, so the good things he's done might be sincerely motivated, but I can't really tell; I guess it's pointless to speculate anyway. But my point is, is I felt like I was always in a precarious situation where I would just end up all alone. In school, I would face a lot of rejection from my classmates, and, after 9 years in one school, didn't really make any friends til I was in my last year. Then, when I moved "down the bayou" I would face more judgmental attitudes, particularly from young married ladies, who were well supported financially and could not possibly understand my situation.

The last two paragraphs are just a digression to lay out my background, because I haven't been in many romantic relationships, and haven't had many good friends and even fewer best friends. The rare time I do, I either panic at the slightest provocation or I forget they exist for days at a time. I either resort to the "I'm used to being alone" or sense something and reject people before they have a chance to reject me.

It's circumstantial and doesn't always happen naturally, but when the main motivation behind treating others well is out of care about how they look to themselves, given the opportunity when impacting the information they receive about someone they supposedly care about was easier than impacting the well being of that person, they tend to chose the former, preferring to work within a framework of solipsism. Anyone can be a great person in their own mind if they make sure they can't hear how they do wrong, but actually doing right by others is a lot more difficult. I find that distinction to be the most helpful one in determining what relationships are worth investing in, might be useful for your case too.


.
 

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So did you feel devalued?
I mean, did that experience and how your parents attempted to defend him make you feel worth less than him?
 
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Sometimes I pull so hard the other falls over and is injured.
 
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@dulcinea is this why my ship has left me stranded at the port these last few weeks? where you been?
 
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Discussion Starter #8
understand your attachment style.
do the test here: Attachment Styles and Close Relationships

the door slam and poor attachment style mean that relationships are twice as difficult for some of us

If a person is able, during this long process, to
experience that he was never "loved" as a child for what
he was but for his achievements, success, and good qualities,
and that he sacrificed his childhood for this "love,"
this will shake him very deeply but one day he will feel the
desire to end this courtship. He will discover in himself a
need to live according to his "true self" and no longer be
forced to earn love, a love that at root, still leaves him
empty-handed since it is given to the "false self," which he
has begun to relinquish.
I'll look into the attachment styles. I can't say I was never loved. I had a messed up family life, but my parents did try.

It's circumstantial and doesn't always happen naturally, but when the main motivation behind treating others well is out of care about how they look to themselves, given the opportunity when impacting the information they receive about someone they supposedly care about was easier than impacting the well being of that person, they tend to chose the former, preferring to work within a framework of solipsism. Anyone can be a great person in their own mind if they make sure they can't hear how they do wrong, but actually doing right by others is a lot more difficult. I find that distinction to be the most helpful one in determining what relationships are worth investing in, might be useful for your case too.


.
But it's not so much a "i feel better when I'm alone" so much as "I don't think anyone wants me around so I'm going to learn to like being alone and distract"

So did you feel devalued?
I mean, did that experience and how your parents attempted to defend him make you feel worth less than him?
I did feel devalued, but it was an irrational feeling.
 

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I had it pointed out to me that I seem to exhibit a push pull reaction to relationships: not just romantic ones, but all relationships.

It's like I always have one foot facing the other way and one side of my heart ready to grow cold at a moments notice. People might attribute it to the "INFJ doorslam", but I'm thinking it's more than that with me. Like, I want people around, and if someone has not done me any wrong, I always go back to them, but then I wanna leave again.

I think with me, part of it, is I don't feel the slightest amount of confidence in social situations, so I"m always thinking I just did some unforgivable gaffe, so I leave before I give people a chance to judge or reject me, because I have a really long history of people doing both.
INFJs are slow to trust, and it becomes a real issue for them with a turbulent childhood. I have the same tendency of having one foot out the door with anyone. Even in my healthiest moments where I really do feel connected to someone, I'm not all the way in. I only have one relationship, with my boyfriend of 7 years, where I can't help but lose all my footing. With my best friends, I have a measure of faith in them, and I let myself be vulnerable to being disappointed by them. But I'm never really heartbroken when a friend betrays me or leaves. I take on a cynical attitude about how flaky and terrible the world is, and then after a good long brooding session, I conclude that all relationships are fickle but connecting with people is still necessary. So I'll be open for the next person that comes along wanting more from me. Which is another thing. I hardly initiate, and it's always people who see something desirable hidden in me who do. And I let myself like them, it feels good, they may do something disappointing, but I stay reasonable and let things roll off. With INFJs there will always be the trust issue, especially if you had a rough childhood. The key for me was to realize I'm really not that important that I need to hide every part of me as if I'm so holy. It's healthier to get hurt and be open than be totally internally protective and miserably lonely. As far as the push pull aspect, it's a natural behavior of INFJs and victim types in general. Victim - Wikisocion
 

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INFJ - The Protectors
All good then

You're looking for a particular kind of trust that you haven't found yet, no more no less. Now which kind of ? that's another question entirely

I too got deluded into thinking I was really liking x or y person, until finding out it was more about the games than the intricate synergy of actually being a couple. Few women I've met had actually that mindset, and even fewer were able to simply be. Without the mask that is. Which always let room for doubt to take place.
 

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I had it pointed out to me that I seem to exhibit a push pull reaction to relationships: not just romantic ones, but all relationships.

It's like I always have one foot facing the other way and one side of my heart ready to grow cold at a moments notice. People might attribute it to the "INFJ doorslam", but I'm thinking it's more than that with me. Like, I want people around, and if someone has not done me any wrong, I always go back to them, but then I wanna leave again.

I think with me, part of it, is I don't feel the slightest amount of confidence in social situations, so I"m always thinking I just did some unforgivable gaffe, so I leave before I give people a chance to judge or reject me, because I have a really long history of people doing both.

I think a lot of this started with my brother though. When I was between 7 and 13, my brother abused me both sexually and emotionally and talked to me, often in a way that was completely dehumanizing. I hated him, but I felt like I wasn't allowed to. He was a charming person, so he always had friends and I always grew up with this feeling if he "didn't have his mental illness" he'd be the golden child; my parents would lament about that a lot, about the illness and what a great child he was before it. Except, I'm no longer convinced it was merely schizophrenia, as the psych's diagnosed. My counselor planted the seed in my mind that he might actually be anti-social. It was after that that everything dawned on me, how we would make these grandiose sweeping statements only to state another grandiose sweeping statement that would contradict it soon after. It's like everything he said was, somehow scripted, if it makes sense. I don't recall a time when he elicited a sentiment that was entirely spontanious that didn't display some awkwardness to it. His socialization was made up of "isms" that he would repeat over and over again, or quoting TV shows/movies he liked. The only genuine emotion I ever saw him have was rage/wrath over a slight or wrong to him. Everything else was just so, designed to elicit praise from others.

Anyway, I'm going back to this, because he was charming. Everyone who would meet him would be charmed by him. He's an attractive person, too, which helps. He had friends and a support group, and I always subconsciously believed that if it weren't for what he did--if mom didn't catch it during the act--he'd probably be the favored child. Not saying, he's not a bad person. He's done really good things, and helped us out. But, he also likes looking good to others, so the good things he's done might be sincerely motivated, but I can't really tell; I guess it's pointless to speculate anyway. But my point is, is I felt like I was always in a precarious situation where I would just end up all alone. In school, I would face a lot of rejection from my classmates, and, after 9 years in one school, didn't really make any friends til I was in my last year. Then, when I moved "down the bayou" I would face more judgmental attitudes, particularly from young married ladies, who were well supported financially and could not possibly understand my situation.

The last two paragraphs are just a digression to lay out my background, because I haven't been in many romantic relationships, and haven't had many good friends and even fewer best friends. The rare time I do, I either panic at the slightest provocation or I forget they exist for days at a time. I either resort to the "I'm used to being alone" or sense something and reject people before they have a chance to reject me.

I think this is mostly a vent, but I really want to change this.
I see several things that I would like to approach, separately, because that's the impression I get from your words but I can't afford writing too long, because I just can't right now and mostly because I don't want to bore you so excuse me for cutting some stuff and going straight to some other.

The style on your post, yes I get the background story, but the style... it sounds like being more easy for you to talk about other stuff and other people than yourself and your want/needs. I've seen and hear people who in similar positions include something more clear, more descriptive and specific than "I really want to change this". Please don't misunderstand my words, what I mean by this is the structure of your post can have many things, but the part where you descrive what you want is too small, not even 1%, you might want to build something there, focus on yourself, enjoy, explore, that's what I mean. Other than that yes, help, therapy would be great, sometimes long talks about the past can help by itself. The other part is, well I don't get any info on the rejection you get at school, why, sounds to me like you don't exactly feel comfortable with yourself. I don't know.

For what I do know is (and I'm no expert), traumas or bad experiences that affect us in general, in terms to "all people" have their roots in disappointment and deception coming from our parents (yes I get the story about your brother but there is more... I believe). I had the chance to know some people who described something like you did and still they are good, fun to have around, etc, but it's them (in the cases I'm describing here now), they feel weird and avoid people despite anyone telling them how fun they are and normal.

I strongly believe you need help by a professional. Not beause you sound terrible, bad, critical problem, nope, I mean we can't do anything but guess, and still there is a very close limit for what we could do here, a pro can check some points and explore from there, you sound cool so yes, why not, be happy, in the end perhaps you avoid people just because you want to (and that's ok too). But you need some more expert light on this. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I see several things that I would like to approach, separately, because that's the impression I get from your words but I can't afford writing too long, because I just can't right now and mostly because I don't want to bore you so excuse me for cutting some stuff and going straight to some other.

The style on your post, yes I get the background story, but the style... it sounds like being more easy for you to talk about other stuff and other people than yourself and your want/needs. I've seen and hear people who in similar positions include something more clear, more descriptive and specific than "I really want to change this". Please don't misunderstand my words, what I mean by this is the structure of your post can have many things, but the part where you descrive what you want is too small, not even 1%, you might want to build something there, focus on yourself, enjoy, explore, that's what I mean. Other than that yes, help, therapy would be great, sometimes long talks about the past can help by itself. The other part is, well I don't get any info on the rejection you get at school, why, sounds to me like you don't exactly feel comfortable with yourself. I don't know.

For what I do know is (and I'm no expert), traumas or bad experiences that affect us in general, in terms to "all people" have their roots in disappointment and deception coming from our parents (yes I get the story about your brother but there is more... I believe). I had the chance to know some people who described something like you did and still they are good, fun to have around, etc, but it's them (in the cases I'm describing here now), they feel weird and avoid people despite anyone telling them how fun they are and normal.

I strongly believe you need help by a professional. Not beause you sound terrible, bad, critical problem, nope, I mean we can't do anything but guess, and still there is a very close limit for what we could do here, a pro can check some points and explore from there, you sound cool so yes, why not, be happy, in the end perhaps you avoid people just because you want to (and that's ok too). But you need some more expert light on this. Good luck.
No you're pretty right actually.
A big thing with me along the lines of the OP is I don't really want people to get to know me too well. I'll let people get to know me some, and then stop at a barrier, because I'm afraid if people get to know me better, then I'll just be a huge disappointment and they won't really want to know me anymore. I do feel uncomfortable, then, focusing on myself. I feel like, right now, too, that a lot of people do a lot for me, since I've fallen on hard times, so I don't like focusing on me, because it seems narcissistic under the circumstances. Right now, I'm mostly focused on trying to find a way to make a living, so I can support myself better, then maybe I can feel less guilty about focusing more on myself.
 

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No you're pretty right actually.
A big thing with me along the lines of the OP is I don't really want people to get to know me too well. I'll let people get to know me some, and then stop at a barrier, because I'm afraid if people get to know me better, then I'll just be a huge disappointment and they won't really want to know me anymore. I do feel uncomfortable, then, focusing on myself. I feel like, right now, too, that a lot of people do a lot for me, since I've fallen on hard times, so I don't like focusing on me, because it seems narcissistic under the circumstances. Right now, I'm mostly focused on trying to find a way to make a living, so I can support myself better, then maybe I can feel less guilty about focusing more on myself.
I really insist on getting pro help, not because you have "pro problems" but because there is a lot to discuss and explore. Your description here could be just social anxiety, or that you don't think to live to your own standards, or that you want to please people just a bit too much (leaving yourself behind), you might even be some type of narcissistic person not yet complete because of the lines "people won't really want to know me anymore" as if that's the core of any social interaction. I mean, you and me could talk having some coffee and there could be times where you don't like my opinions just like I might not like yours, and there could be times where I don't like you at all, or you don't like me at all... but that doesn't mean is the end of the interaction, or that we can't get a hold of liking each other ahead. What I'm telling you here is very similar to young relationships where people think an argument or discussion is the end of the world or that "we should break up". (Im going bit by bit from your quote, I won't multi quote to save space).

So, what I fyou are such a big disappointment? I mean if that's the biggest fear? then what? at least you are being yourself and that kind of rejection helps anyone to self calibrate, but honestly it's difficult to have social interactions being too focused on being accepted, in fact in most cases we are all just being "kinda nice" until we actually accept the person, and if not well, nothing happens. I don't know how old you are but that could be a factor here too.


Focusing too much on yourself? well it depends. I mentioned narcissism above but just about being too focused on being accepted because "you have to be accepted and people have no other option because you are so cool, right?" it's the same with sex, we all can have sex and no, in no way that means "that sex is the best of the other persons life" pretty sure is good but not the best, I used to tell this to my ex-GF-narcissistic who wanted that all the interactions with her left a strong footprint in my life, like for good, like all the sex should be (to me) out of this world, well... it was good but... please, I don't even expect to leave that impression on nobody, so give me a break. Back to narcissism, because you mention it, what you describe is usually the consequence of growing up with a narcissistic person... that you can't talk about yourself because "ohhh it's all about you" when actually is all about them, and they want no competition.

I don't know how deep this goes, or how painful it is, but we all need a bit of rejection, yes we all hate it, and just like DATA on Star Trek when he got some implant to experience emotions there was a time when he tasted some licor and hated it, and he actually said "terrible blah blah... more!!!" there is also some joy on being rejected, we hate it, yes, it's... complex. Perhaps you are being just too sensitive (and you would have to research about this) because in no way in any part of my comment Im taking away your right to feel that way or saying that you are wrong at any time.

Oh, wait a minute... guilt, you mention it, well that's another thing narcissistic parents inflict on their children. Why would you feel guilty about? did you steal the computer you are using to write this post? I don't think so. Guilt is not natural (nor shame) is inflicted, it's learned. You sound pretty normal and ok to me, just too worried. I bet you could use some long talk on a trip where nobody can get off the car and then afford saying you like to lick your feet and facing how others make funny faces... but the trip doesn't stop. I mean the treasure of friendship were we learn what it means to be accepted, and that can also mean we accepting ourselves because others have no problem with it.


Over the years I got to know a lot of people that are actually... big idiots and hey, they feeel happy and confident on their stupidity, in fact they teach you life lessons (wrong) like they were Budda or some enlightened saint, what I mean is... if they can feel confident in social interactions... why don't we? as some wise friend of mine said "idiots can be overly confident you know, and smart people can be insecure many times".

Good luck, hope things get better.
 

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All things can be condensed [down] to the high-functioning human-primate biological reproductive system -- 'relationships' (either platonic or otherwise), are merely a flaccid phallus, with the potentiality to get harder and harder with every stroke of [conflict]. Many specimens are not prepared, nor ready for such hardships -- and thus, are not ready for the thick load that can [unexpectedly] blow-up in their faces at any time during the, rather pleasurable, ride.
 
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