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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
@kaleidoscope I have read that variants develop as a result of childhood wounding, and I have also read that there are (non-causal) correlations between childhood wounding and instinctual variants. Just like core type, my conclusion is that, variants too are innate. That correlations between early childhood environment and variant don't imply causation. Early childhood wounding influences the dominant instinct but does not cause it to develop, how I see it.


@aconite That's right. I compiled the credible resources all in one place for ease of access, and I will continue to add to this thread as I chance upon other useful resources. I actually didn't post the entire 16types article, because in portions they had added some baloney about behaviours and mannerisms which was nothing but crude stereotyping, so I edited all of that out. There's a crapload of bad information on instinctual variants and these poor descriptions are dime a dozen, hence the need for a resource thread that actually contains info. worth a damn. Glad you find it of use.


@brainheart You're right. What I am discouraging people against is the same Awakening (EIDB) is talking about. Dominant varian+Core interaction is very crucial to understand in depth. Stacking can be worked after this or alongside, once the dom instinct is correctly typed. But, skipping understanding what each instinct signifies and how it manifests in the dom/sec/blindspot positions (independent of type, just initially) in favour of reading Type+Stack descriptions which are vaguely worded and very general is among the primary causes for mistyping not only the instincts but at times core types.

For example, I've seen people who couldn't correctly answer even the most basic questions about instinctual variants (and don't even know what their core type is with any level of certainty) who will skip over to stack+type descriptions and type themselves based on these like so: Hmm..I could be a 3 or a 6 , and I looked at the stacking descriptions, and I relate more to sx/so 4, therefore that's my type.

OR

Again, keep in mind they have a very poor grasp of instincts and their manifestations in dom/sec/blindspot, but they skip understanding these in depth, and go straight to stacking + type descriptions to figure out their variant. There are many permutations of such flawed reasoning, but these I have encountered often.


@Zweetner Yes, it is the dominant instinct which is considered to be distorted in childhood. Distortion implies compulsiveness which could also manifest as neurotic neglect, not just unhealthy hyperfocusing. So, an sp dominant when healthy will have a balanced approach towards SP matters, but when unhealthy, could become very unmindful of their health-- eating disorders are common in Sp doms. The blindspot is not, theoretically, associated with childhood wounding. The statement about the dominant instinct being non-negotiable is a reference to consciously or rationally negotiating or compromising on your dominant instinct. It's a reference to average-healthy states. So, an sp dom, would consider their concerns with physical safety or even comfort etc., non negotiable as in these needs just have to be met in order for them to feel a sense of overall well-being.

As an individual becomes unhealthy, they become neurotic in the area of their dominant instinct, which implies compulsiveness, neglect. It looks like the point is not clear from that excerpt as the term compulsiveness seems to only conjure hyper-focus to you (and possibly others), I am going to ask an admin to edit that for me. Good point.

I am Sp dominant, and when I am unhealthy, I overeat, undersleep, oversleep, skip meals, ignore my health and comfort. I am, generally, a health conscious person and physical comfort is paramount to me. But, when unhealthy, I can be extremely neglectful of my physical needs. But, So, is still my blindspot. I am deficient in the So sense , but that's just a constant in my life, more or less. It's not something that I experience only when I am unhealthy. So, my tip to people is to note that that the dom instinct can also fall into severe neglect/neurotic hyper focusing in unhealth, so when evaluating instincts, always keep psychological and emotional unhealth/health in mind.
 

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The descriptions of the spoiler are fine for me.

That similarity between sp and 5 is true. When I met the enneagram, 4 and 5 were my options of type. Then I met instinctual stackings and I self-typed like a sp and then sp/sx, but why?

I really never worried about confort or securiy that much. Yes, I think it's desirable, but it never seem to be a priority in my life. What was confusing me? Those key words. Need for self-sufficiency, independence, taking care of myself, being a homebody, looking inward, feeling I'm on my own. But that also sounds like 5. The same goes for so-last. Feeling that connecting will cost, connections will drain, acting as a lone force, feeling I do not need others, fearing of being unable to connect, finding hard to take in others' generousity, social isolation, finding interdependence difficult, developing an impossible false independence that certainly leads me to unnecessary suffering and impoverishment of experience. But that also sounds like 5. Like a 5 that do care, but struggle with it.

I also relate strongly with sx as blind spot. Being dispassionate and condemning passion or exaggerations as dangerous for objectivity and neutrality, procrastination, postponing my interests, fear of being boring, of being flat, with no juice or spice as I'm used to say, feeling flattered when someone wants to spend time with me, lack of charisma, and disappointingly but truly, feeling inferior because there's certain undevelopment of certain forms of self-awareness.

So, thanks for the resources. I feel everything narrowed down.
 

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What do you think about typewatch stacking descriptions?

Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Instincts
Some other reason behind my mistyping:
sp/sx: *Comes out as somewhat heavy and gloomy, or cool and detached. Often gives out a suffocating and insular vibe, as if their internal world is wrapped around by an impermeable membrane.* Strong sensory impressions designed to awake sexuality. *Makes one want to linger on one or two lines forever.*
But,
soc/sp: *Tangential. Lots of details and analysis. Very in-their-head and intellectual*, and lacks sensuality. *Comes across as level-headed and unspontaneous*, but also with personal warmth. *Their written works often require a great deal of mental concentration from the readers*.
and that's mainly why I spend too much time editing my final messages. :D

And some other information about ranges (I understand it's weighting of the instincts in your stacking). I just skimmed through it, so I don't know how useful it is. Enjoy, I guess.
Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Instinct Ranges
 

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Discussion Starter #45
@NingenExp

I don't pay attention to their Stacking descriptions. The dark side, light side, ascetic bullshit is just frills. And, they type via people's writing style and 'vibe' which is again nonsense. So, I didn't post their descriptions. They're interesting in places, but can be very misleading especially for Enneagram beginners who really need to understand the basics. Their type descriptions are good, however.
 

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I don't pay attention to their Stacking descriptions. The dark side, light side, ascetic bullshit is just frills. And, they type via people's writing style and 'vibe' which is again nonsense. So, I didn't post their descriptions. They're interesting in places, but can be very misleading especially for Enneagram beginners who really need to understand the basics. Their type descriptions are good, however.
I like the stack range descriptions, though I agree they shouldn't be used by uber-beginners. I really see myself as an "ascetic"--or, put simply, sp/sx with lower sx than usual. I think there's a bit more to it than what they say, and I don't think they're 100% right, but then who is on the internet, eh?
 

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@Boss
great articles
reading about the Social instinct almost feels like reading about a Jungian Cognitive Function I don't use. there's a simultaneous response of "how could someone actually enjoy that? it sounds dreadful" and at the same time "how the hell are they doing that?" it seems largely like an orientation/world view, like they view reality through a lens. most of the more mature So doms I've met have a sort of earthy humility to them, like they are aware of the relationship between themselves and the world and just accept it. Sp/Sx on the other hand can resemble 5s in that there can appear to be castle walls between themselves and the rest of the world.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
The following are from RH's Wisdom of the Enneagram. There will be repetitions from previously shared material. Some of you might find these more clear-cut and helpful.

The Self-Preservation Variant

Most people can easily identify this Instinctual Variant. Self Preservation types are preoccupied with getting and maintaining physical safety and comfort, which often translates into concerns about food, clothing, money, housing, and physical health, These issues are their main priority, and in pursuing them, other areas of their lives may suffer.

For example, we might identify this Instinctual Variant in ourselves or others by observing what a person would first notice on entering a room. Self Preservation types tend to focus on the comfort of the environment. Does the environment support their sense of well being? They are quick to notice and respond to poor lighting, or uncomfortable chairs, or to be dissatisfied with the room temperature, and they are constantly adjusting these things. They may wonder when their next meal or coffee break will come, worry if there will be enough food, or if it will be the kind they like, or if it will meet their dietary requirements.

When this instinct is functioning harmoniously with the personality type, these people can be earthy and practical. They apply their energies to taking care of basic life necessities- creating a secure environment, shopping, maintaining the home and workplace, paying bills, and acquiring useful skills so that the orderly flow of life will not be interrupted. When the personality becomes unhealthy, however, it distorts the instinct, causing these people to take poor care of themselves, possibly developing eating and sleeping disorders. They may stock up on too many things, overbuy, overeat, and overpurge themselves of unnecessary "baggage" of all sorts.

Less healthy Self Preservation types let themselves go physically, or they become obsessive about health and food matters, or both. Further, their normal practicality and financial sense may become distorted, resulting in problems with money and organizing their affairs. If the Self Preservation instinct becomes completely overwhelmed by personality issues, individuals may engage in deliberately self-destructive behavior, in which the instinct has the effect of turning against itself.

When the other two instincts dominate in an individual and the Self Preservation instinct is the least developed, attending to the basics of life does not come naturally. It will not always occur to such individuals that they need to eat or sleep properly. Environmental factors will be relatively insignificant, and they will tend to lack the drive to accumulate wealth or property, or to even care about such matters. Time and resource management will typically be neglected, often with seriously detrimental effects on their own careers, social life, and material well being.

The Social Variant

Most of us are aware that we have a social component, but we tend to see it as our desire to socialize, to attend parties, meetings, belong to groups, and so fourth. The Social instinct, however, is actually something much more fundamental. It is a powerful desire, found in all human beings, to be ilked, approved of, and to feel safe with others. On our own, we are rather weak and vulnerable and can easily fall prey to a hostile environment. We lack the claws, fangs, and fur of other animals, and if we did not band together and cooperate with each other, it is unlikely that our species, or we as individuals, would be able to survive. Being able to adjust ourselves to others and be acceptable is a fundamental, survival based human instinct.

People who have a dominant Social instinct are preoccupied with being accepted and necessary in their world. They are concerned with maintaining the sense of value they get from participating in activities with others, be they family, group, community, national, or global activities. Social types liike to feel involved, and they enjoy interacting with others for common purposes.

On entering a room, Social types would be immediately aware of the power structures and subtle "politics" between the different people and groups. They are subconsciously focused on others' reactions to them- particularly on whether they are being accepted or not. They are attuned to the notion of "place" within a hierarchical social structure, in regard both to themselves and to others. This can manifest in many ways, such as the pursuit of attention, success, fame, recognition, honor, leadership, and appreciation, as well as the security of being part of something larger than themselves. Of all the instinctual variants, Social types like to know what is going on in their world; they need to "touch base" with others to feel safe, alive, and energized. This can range from an interest in office politics or neighborhood gossip to world news and international diplomacy. We could say that the Social instinct is a kind of contextual intelligence: it gives us the ability to see our efforts and their effects in a broader context.

In general, social types enjoy interacting with people, although ironically, they tend to avoid intimacy. As with all of the instincts, if the person becomes unhealthy, the instinct manifests as its opposite. Unhealthy Social types can become extremely antisocial, detesting people and resenting society, and as a result, they may have poorly developed social skills. They fear and distrust others and cannot get along with people, while at the same time they are unable to disengage from their social connections. In brief, Social types focus on interacting with people in ways that will build their personal value, their sense of accomplishment, and their security of place with others.

When the other two instincts dominate in an individual and the Social instinct is least developed, attending to social endeavors and commitments does not come naturally. Such individuals have difficulty seeing the point of creating and sustaining social connections, often disregarding the impact of the opinions of others. Their sense of involvement with their community, at any scale, may be minimal. They often have little connection with people, feeling that they do not need others and that others do not need them. Thus, there may be frequent misunderstandings with allies and supporters as well as friends and family members.

The Sexual Variant

Many people initially want to identify themselves as this Variant, perhaps because they believe that this would mean that they are sexy or because they enjoy sex. Of course, sexiness is highly subjective, and there are "sexy" people in all three of the instinctual variants. If we wish to be one Variant rather than another, it is good to remember that the personality tends to interfere with and distort the dominant instinct. Thus, people of the Sexual Variant tend to have recurrent problems in the areas of intimate relationships. As with the other Variants, we need to see the way that the instinct plays out more broadly.

In the Sexual types, there is a constant search for connection and an attraction to intense experiences- not only sexual experiences but any situation that promises a similar charge. In all things, Sexual types seek intense contact. They may find intensity in a ski jump, a deep conversation, or an exciting movie. They tend to follow their attractions. (By contrast, Social types notice who is talking with the host, who has power, prestige, or who might be able to help them. Self Preservation types will note the temperature of the room, where the refreshments are, and what might be a comfortable place to sit.) Sexual types gravitate toward people they feel magnetized by, regardless of the person's potential for helping them or their social standing. It is as if they were asking, "Where is the juice in this room? Whose energy is the most intense?"

Sexual types tend to have difficulty pursuing their own projects or taking adequate care of themselves, because on a subconscious level, they are always looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will complete them. They are like a plug looking for a socket and can become obsessed with another if they feel they have the right person for them. They may neglect important obligations, or even their own basic necessities, if they are swept up in someone or something that has captivated them.

When they are unhealthy, Sexual types can experience a scattering of their attention and a profound lack of focus. They may act out in sexual promiscuity or become trapped in a fearful, dysfunctions attitude toward sex and intimacy. When the latter becomes their orientation, they will be equally intense about their avoidances.

When the other two instincts dominate in an individual and the Sexual instinct is least developed, attending to matters of intimacy and stimulation- mental or emotional- does not come naturally. They know what they like, but often find it difficult to get deeply excited or enthusiastic about anything. Such individuals also tend to have difficulty being intimate with others and may even avoid it altogether. They also tend to fall into routines, feeling uncomfortable if there is too much that is unfamiliar in their lives. They may feel social involved with people but strangely disconnected even from spouses, friends, and family members.

Source
 

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Boss said:
When the other two instincts dominate in an individual and the Social instinct is least developed, attending to social endeavors and commitments does not come naturally. Such individuals have difficulty seeing the point of creating and sustaining social connections, often disregarding the impact of the opinions of others. Their sense of involvement with their community, at any scale, may be minimal. They often have little connection with people, feeling that they do not need others and that others do not need them. Thus, there may be frequent misunderstandings with allies and supporters as well as friends and family members.
Ha, this is so me. Though, I kinda wonder if the 3 wing (or core in your case, Boss) kind of dampens the effect of having soc as the least developed instinct. There's still an awareness of others and their opinions of you, even if you indeed don't see the value in connections. One of the biggest difficulties I have is sustaining connections just for the sake of having friends. I'd much rather be on my own.
 

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What do you make of

-excel spreadsheet test (which had some weird unrelated questions, but if we could modify it?)
-the party game I keep promoting as a dumbed down version, which is hard for people who hate parties.
 
When introducing the sub-types to my friends, I often use the analogy of attending a party. I present the three different orientations, as an individual attending a party. The self preservation subtype might concern himself with figuring out his ride to and from the party, what food is being provided and where it is, and his finances for the evening. He might also become anxious if one of these survival issues is not being met, for example if his ride home suddenly decides to drink and stay the night which interferes with his plans of getting home.

The social subtype individual might enter the party with a pretty accurate idea of who will be there and might be scanning the crowd, introducing herself to any newcomers and making sure everyone is doing well. She might also experience anxiety if there is tension in the room between two different groups of people, for example if there has been a break up between a couple and both individuals are attending. The social subtype might be hyper vigilant about this situation and how it could affect the dynamics of the evening.

Lastly, a sexual subtype individual might go into the party looking to find the most interesting and attractive person in the room, he might be focused on one individual all night long or trying to get attention by dancing or doing a stand-up routine for a small audience in the corner. He also might experience anxiety if the person he has set sights on, is not responding to him and is flirting with someone else, or if he isn�t receiving the attention or connection he wants from anyone in the room. He might become bored very easily if there is no one in particular at the party with whom he feels a connection.

from Exploring the Instinctual Subtypes with Young Adults - International Enneagram Association
 

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What do you make of
-excel spreadsheet test (which had some weird unrelated questions, but if we could modify it?)
-the party game I keep promoting as a dumbed down version, which is hard for people who hate parties.
 
When introducing the sub-types to my friends, I often use the analogy of attending a party. I present the three different orientations, as an individual attending a party. The self preservation subtype might concern himself with figuring out his ride to and from the party, what food is being provided and where it is, and his finances for the evening. He might also become anxious if one of these survival issues is not being met, for example if his ride home suddenly decides to drink and stay the night which interferes with his plans of getting home.
The social subtype individual might enter the party with a pretty accurate idea of who will be there and might be scanning the crowd, introducing herself to any newcomers and making sure everyone is doing well. She might also experience anxiety if there is tension in the room between two different groups of people, for example if there has been a break up between a couple and both individuals are attending. The social subtype might be hyper vigilant about this situation and how it could affect the dynamics of the evening.
Lastly, a sexual subtype individual might go into the party looking to find the most interesting and attractive person in the room, he might be focused on one individual all night long or trying to get attention by dancing or doing a stand-up routine for a small audience in the corner. He also might experience anxiety if the person he has set sights on, is not responding to him and is flirting with someone else, or if he isn�t receiving the attention or connection he wants from anyone in the room. He might become bored very easily if there is no one in particular at the party with whom he feels a connection.
from Exploring the Instinctual Subtypes with Young Adults - International Enneagram Association
this makes me sound Sx dom. when I go to a party, an interest group/hobby or any sort of gathering, my top priority is potentially finding an attractive person who I click well with and could possibly date. that said, that just might be me being a rake-ish 7 and have little to do with Sx. normally, I go in, survey the area, decide "bo-ring! I don't like anyone here" and leave
 

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this makes me sound Sx dom. when I go to a party, an interest group/hobby or any sort of gathering, my top priority is potentially finding an attractive person who I click well with and could possibly date. that said, that just might be me being a rake-ish 7 and have little to do with Sx. normally, I go in, survey the area, decide "bo-ring! I don't like anyone here" and leave
I see who I can flirt with/seduce/fantasize about even though I'm happily married. Saying that makes it sound conscious when it's not. It's just this natural pull that happens. I have to essentially reprimand myself to cut it out or physically leave, because it makes me feel so damn good at the time, I kind of forget of the negative consequences or the commitments I have to others. If there's a bunch of people having fun and I'm not part of the group and there's no one I feel attracted to I just sit around and brood and wonder why I'm such a weirdo who doesn't have fun when other people do and I'll drink a lot to try and get over it. Meanwhile I'll watch the social interaction that's going on and study it/criticize it, that is if I'm not in the bathroom crying because I just can't fit in anywhere.
 

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I see who I can flirt with/seduce/fantasize about even though I'm happily married. Saying that makes it sound conscious when it's not. It's just this natural pull that happens. I have to essentially reprimand myself to cut it out or physically leave, because it makes me feel so damn good at the time, I kind of forget of the negative consequences or the commitments I have to others. If there's a bunch of people having fun and I'm not part of the group and there's no one I feel attracted to I just sit around and brood and wonder why I'm such a weirdo who doesn't have fun when other people do and I'll drink a lot to try and get over it. Meanwhile I'll watch the social interaction that's going on and study it/criticize it, that is if I'm not in the bathroom crying because I just can't fit in anywhere.
if I were in a relationship and felt this kind of conflict at a party, I would drag my boyfriend home and be like "I'm lonely, play with me" (this could involve anything from watching a movie together cuddled together to sex to a pillow fight)
 

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if I were in a relationship and felt this kind of conflict at a party, I would drag my boyfriend home and be like "I'm lonely, play with me" (this could involve anything from watching a movie together cuddled together to sex to a pillow fight)
And therein lies self preservation seven in action...

I like the conflict/intense feelings it provokes (I am a four, after all). But I most decidedly don't want to hurt my husband's feelings so that keeps it in check- now, anyway. In the past it caused some big problems that I don't want to repeat.
 

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And therein lies self preservation seven in action...
really? I thought anyone would respond like this :laughing:

I like the conflict/intense feelings it provokes (I am a four, after all). But I most decidedly don't want to hurt my husband's feelings so that keeps it in check- now, anyway. In the past it caused some big problems that I don't want to repeat.
I like it for awhile, but after awhile, my thoughts go to "I need reciprocation". I love being able to cut my sexuality loose and indulge the other person, but I'm not about to do this all the way until I know it's safe (I do slip on occasion though. recently I fell head over heels for a guy I'd only known for 3 days online and for a few days was determined to save up enough money to fly out and see him. then it sunk in "this is not going to fucking work!!!" and I was all emotionally shredded up and withdrawn for about a week. 98% of the time though, I don't let this happen)
 
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