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The Root cause is the theory it'self

3K views 38 replies 18 participants last post by  SiHatley 
#1 ·
It is rooted in how online descriptions depict the MBTI types or cognitive functions, it wont help the person when all IxFP gets in their description just "They are sensitive people, ocean of emotions, prone to oversensitivity and inclined to melancholy" and basicaly giving Fi doms the "Nice guy" treatment in the most patronizing way possible, basicaly "You have ocean of emotions, you are sensitive, but you suck and are a burden with everything else" meanwhile ENTJ's get all the great respect and gets something like "Organised people, ambitious and highly driven, great at logic and thinking, highly pragmatic and assertive, very hardworking, grinds 24/7, the drawback is that they can be rude and blunt", so there is no wonder why so many people are insecure about being a Feeler.

So, out of those, what do you want to choose? I would obviously choose the ENTJ one over the Fi dom one, obviously, nobody does want to associate themselves as someone who is oversensitive and melancholic. The issue is how Fi's actual qualities seem invisible and intangible, and are easily overshadowed by It's negative qualities, meanwhile Te qualities are visible in all It's glory and It's negative sides seem insignificant in comparison.

Community is one thing, but the main issue is rooted within the theory it'self, no matter how much you deny it, the theory it'self is toxic and makes certain types appear either more "Cooler" and/or more powerful than the others (Primarily INTJ's, ExTP's ExTJ's), so there is no wonder why many people want to avoid being an Fi dom and cling to be something like an ENTJ or ENTP, because their qualities appear far more visible and tangible compared to their non-existent weakness, unlike Fi dom types, which has their qualities invisible, intangible and being completely overshadowed by their extremely visible negative qualities.

Many said that people will find their inferior function to be ashamed of it because It's their weakness, but I havent seen a single ENTJ, or ENTP, or ESTP being ashamed of their inferior function, and many of them still eitherway express how dealing with inferior Te person in their lives is the worst.
 
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#22 · (Edited)
I don't think he minds so much because Fi doms aren't the people he cares about. Its other types he looks up to and seeks validation from. He's the really typist guy that loves bitching about typism.
 
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#3 ·
It is rooted in how online descriptions depict the MBTI types or cognitive functions, it wont help the person when all IxFP gets in their description just "They are sensitive people, ocean of emotions, prone to oversensitivity and inclined to melancholy" and basicaly giving Fi doms the "Nice guy" treatment in the most patronizing way possible, basicaly "You have ocean of emotions, you are sensitive, but you suck and are a burden with everything else" meanwhile ENTJ's get all the great respect and gets something like "Organised people, ambitious and highly driven, great at logic and thinking, highly pragmatic and assertive, very hardworking, grinds 24/7, the drawback is that they can be rude and blunt", so there is no wonder why so many people are insecure about being a Feeler.

So, out of those, what do you want to choose? I would obviously choose the ENTJ one over the Fi dom one, obviously, nobody does want to associate themselves as someone who is oversensitive and melancholic. The issue is how Fi's actual qualities seem invisible and intangible, and are easily overshadowed by It's negative qualities, meanwhile Te qualities are visible in all It's glory and It's negative sides seem insignificant in comparison.

Community is one thing, but the main issue is rooted within the theory it'self, no matter how much you deny it, the theory it'self is toxic and makes certain types appear either more "Cooler" and/or more powerful than the others (Primarily INTJ's, ExTP's ExTJ's), so there is no wonder why many people want to avoid being an Fi dom and cling to be something like an ENTJ or ENTP, because their qualities appear far more visible and tangible compared to their non-existent weakness, unlike Fi dom types, which has their qualities invisible, intangible and being completely overshadowed by their extremely visible negative qualities.

Many said that people will find their inferior function to be ashamed of it because It's their weakness, but I haven't seen a single ENTJ, or ENTP, or ESTP being ashamed of their inferior function, and many of them still either way express how dealing with inferior Te person in their lives is the worst.
It is a fact that in order to attract people to yourself, you must outwardly project your most positive qualities.

If you are one of the introverted types, you can do this on an individual, one-on-one basis. You also depend heavily on your circumstances. That is, you need to be out and about in school or in a job where you can potentially interact with various types of people. (Situations that force you to be more extraverted) As an introvert, you go with the flow and take people as they come.

People who cut themselves off from social interaction tend to project more negative qualities. The reason is that as long as you're socially interacting there is always a sense of hope and hope overcomes negativity.

Extraverts are generally better at socializing because they don't invest themselves so heavily in each interaction. They give it just enough of their attention and then move on to the next thing.

The 4-letter, MBTI personality typing is just a snapshot of a person's preferred way of functioning. It doesn't dictate how attractive you are. How attractive people are to others is a separate aspect of their personality.

I (as an INFP) have found that knowing extraverts early in life helped me as an introvert to be able to extravert when necessary throughout my life due to having role models and practicing their techniques.
 
#4 ·
Strength in character doesn't come in denying the efficacy of one of your functions. Strength comes from accepting and adapting with the changes, even if they are uncomfortable. Te can't exist without Fi, why is that do you think? and why is someone who is cognitively healthy, able to utilise both of these functions when called for?

You are trying to justify your insecurities by debasing a personality theory that's been constructed by the combined efforts of geniuses we'll never be. Can't you see these labels of 'cool'; 'hot' or 'new' are all meaningless! What matters in the end is how we feel about the world around us and what makes sense to us. I hope you are able to overcome your doubt like i'm trying to do, you don't have to be a slave to your own doubts forever, Charus!
 
#6 ·
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#9 ·
It's trully sad that people prefer to remain ignorant of the issue. It does not matter how much you gaslight others into believing that this is not the issue, the issue will still remain, and that is a fact. Tell me, how it is fair when certain types simply are 'Bigger, better, faster, stronger' in almost every aspect?
 
#11 ·
Life isn't exactly fair now is it?
I mean wealth moves upwards to the 1%, some people get born into wealth while others are born into abject poverty.

The point of MBTI is to twist Jung into a socially acceptable theory from a somewhat behaviorist point of view.
Meaning that all qualities that are subjective and hidden, must take on a decidedly negative quality.
All the obvious and objective extroversion on the other hand will take the front seat as something to be admired.
So yeah the root is the theory, only in Jungian or Socionics theory do you get a somewhat fair representation of the types.

In the end, who cares, if the NPCs of the world want to live in ignorance, then that is their problem at the end of the day.
Cause we in the know can leverage this to our advantage if we wish, or we can fight a losing battle against the tide of ignorance.

To me your ideal of fairness is like the white house in this clip, it newer had a chance.

 
#10 ·
So, out of those, what do you want to choose?
Fortunately it isn't a matter of choice - by the current theory, cognitive functions describe one's cognition, which is inborn.
I know many have already told you this, but why focus on what you lack instead of making the best use of what you are dealt with? You cannot change it either way.

Community is one thing, but the main issue is rooted within the theory it'self, no matter how much you deny it, the theory it'self is toxic and makes certain types appear either more "Cooler" and/or more powerful than the others
That depends on the individual's outlook. If someone values industriousness, certain types will seem cool. If someone values sensitivity, different types will seem cool. I'll commit heresy and say that for this sensitivity-valuing person the most powerful types will be Fi-doms.
Can't you see? The way one interprets a theory is up to the individual. "Coolness" is entirely subjective. I'll go further and say that there is no intrinsic value judgment in the theory, considering it merely lists neutral traits when discussing the types. That judgment will be cast by the consumer.
 
#12 · (Edited)
You could erase MBTI out of existence and nothing would change about this, you'd still have types of people who would be seen as having "cooler" or more "powerful" personalities and traits than others.
If you want to seem cooler and more powerful, learn to accept yourself even if you're not one of these sorts of people. It's cool to chart your own path.
 
#14 ·
Community is one thing, but the main issue is rooted within the theory it'self, no matter how much you deny it, the theory it'self is toxic and makes certain types appear either more "Cooler" and/or more powerful than the others (Primarily INTJ's, ExTP's ExTJ's), so there is no wonder why many people want to avoid being an Fi dom and cling to be something like an ENTJ or ENTP, because their qualities appear far more visible and tangible compared to their non-existent weakness, unlike Fi dom types, which has their qualities invisible, intangible and being completely overshadowed by their extremely visible negative qualities.
What are the writer's motivations, and things happening behind the scenes affecting them when writing something, or choosing the words to describe something?
What are the reader's motivations, and things happening behind the scenes affecting them when interpreting said words?

If I know that I can be oversensitive and melancholic, then these descriptions wouldn't affect me at all. It's just a matter of fact, I have those sides to me, but being like that won't stop me from being many other things as well. Such as being organized, pragmatic, assertive, working hard, even being rude and blunt when needed. I can develop all kinds of skills that can help me accomplish whatever I want.

If these descriptions don't match with who I know I am, then they won't affect me either. I am what I am. People close to me know that, and others don't matter. There are people who judge me negatively without bothering to even talk to me, or figuring out what anything I say or do actually means. Their loss. I already know I can't please everybody, same as not everbody pleases me. That's life.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I don't think the OP understands how the Feeling function works. The Feeling function is actually a very powerful function: It's a leadership function.

To split it up into Fe-Dom vs Fi-Dom:
--Fe Dom is about leadership by consensus.
--Fi Dom is about leadership by morals and values structured into hierarchies and authority.

The main trouble with the Feeling function is that it's about COMMUNITY leadership. It's about HOW PEOPLE RELATE TO EACH OTHER via morals and ethics and all that. And those talents don't usually develop until later in life.

To put it another way: Most Feelers who are into personality typing are young people. And younger adults are usually poor leaders because they are still trying to develop their social and community skills and find their place in society. So most young Feelers in the typology community are still at an "immature" level of Feeling. And the typology descriptions tend to reflect this "immature" level of young Feelers.

Again, to split it up into Fe-Dom vs Fi-Dom:
--Young "immature" Fe-Doms can appear as either people-pleasers or bullies.
--And young "immature" Fi-Doms can appear as either over-sensitive moralists or chilly, aloof, self-involved narcissists.

But once Feelers get older and solidify their position in society, then a more "mature" level of Feeling comes to the forefront. The Fe-Doms and the Fi-Doms get better at asserting themselves and their values. Fe-Doms become natural leaders by virtue of their natural extraversion skills; several US presidents have supposedly been Fe-Doms. And Fi-Doms, with their natural skills in community ethics, morals, hierarchy, structure, etc., become leaders in a broad range fields from psychology to bureaucracy to law, etc.

I myself was a troop handler (Sergeant) in the US Marines for several years, and then went on to become a mid-level executive in a big international bureaucracy. And a friend of mine once met a previous US Commandant of the Marine Corps (the highest rank in the Marine Corps) and found that he was an INFP.

Admittedly, Fi-Doms in particular face some unique difficulties. Feeling is all about COMMUNITY: It's about HOW PEOPLE RELATE TO EACH OTHER via morals and ethics and all that. For Fi-Doms in particular, that's kind of a contradiction in terms: Fi-Doms are introverts with natural skills in COMMUNITY leadership. In other words, if Fi-Doms want to eventually see their natural skills bear fruit, they have to bite the bullet and learn some social skills. Otherwise, if they remain aloof and isolated and go to extremes of introversion, they'll always remain at an "immature" level of Feeling.

By the way, if you want evidence of the natural leadership skills of Feelers, just look at the OP message. In the OP message @Charus is taking a COMMUNITY LEADERSHIP stance by asserting a position of moral judgment over the typology community. The OP is doing this in a rather "immature" Fi-Dom way, that is, by standing apart (Fi-Dom aloofness) and bullying and berating the community. But as the OP grows older and gets more experience of life and learns how to assert himself more effectively, he'll likely begin to gain some genuine leadership skills.

My advice: The OP should look ahead and start reading up on leadership and management skills, and maybe work on his Fe skills a bit. Start getting some experience in people-handling positions in the working world. With more self-confidence and better people-handling skills, he'll eventually blossom into a good leader of one sort or another.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
#20 · (Edited)
By the way, if you want evidence of the natural leadership skills of Feelers, just look at the OP message. In the OP message @Charus is taking a COMMUNITY LEADERSHIP stance by asserting a position of moral judgment over the typology community. The OP is doing this in a rather "immature" Fi-Dom way, that is, by standing apart (Fi-Dom aloofness) and bullying and berating the community. But as the OP grows older and gets more experience of life and learns how to assert himself more effectively, he'll likely begin to gain some genuine leadership skills.
This is a really good point. Sorry if I'm making assumptions, but everytime Charus creates this kind of thread, he always gather a lot of attention. And while most people have criticised him, they end up visiting his threads anyways. I would say that this is a form of unpolished charisma.

And again, sorry if I'm making wild assumptions, but most people here don't really disagree with Charus' views. They disagree with his attitude towards his views. That person includes myself. Dare I say, most likely it's because what Charus says really does resonate with all of us, and we feel that it is indeed a valid point.

We can't deny that society tend to obsess over a single, supposedly superior archetype. Not just in personality typing, but in almost any kinds of setting.

Some cultures obsess over pale skin, and they deem people with pale skin to be superior, and would go through all lengths to avoid the sun. Some cultures believe that people with specific profession have higher status than the rest. Some culture have beauty standards where if you have these specific eye shapes (phoenix, dragon, tiger, duke, etc), then you're automatically good looking even when you've lost all your teeth and have grown a massive pimple on your nose. Some culture believe that people born on a certain year are the "superior, dominant" people, destined to be a "leader". How ridiculous could we get?

In Harari's book Deus, he mentioned about data religion, which implies that collectively, humankind is basically a perfection-seeking organism, where each of its cell obsess over what's the "best" and being the "best", even when it means we stop being human. And it couldn't be further from the truth. Everywhere I go, I see people coming up with tier lists. I'm afraid that at this point, we should just come up with the "superior" dish and have a diet that consists solely of that dish. Every single other dishes ever invented are inferior and it's blasphemy to even think of eating them.

I believe that if one day, hypothetically speaking, robots really do end up replacing humans, it's due to our own faulty views. If we insist on behaving like we're running optimization algorithm all the time, then of course we can find someone who's better than us in doing that: robots and AI.

And to reply to the thread title, the root cause is not the theory itself. The root cause is, unfortunately, humans.
 
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#24 · (Edited)
I don't think either that some types are cooler and some not - but certain proffessions and other actions might be suitable more to some types than to others. Some natural abilities do support what we do, if we choose right things to do where to apply those abilities.

Someone above mentioned that there's always an opposing power to your dom - yea that's true. Lose contact to your inferior and you become a hellish nightmare, upside down unbalanced person.

But still, lets keep open mind and not attack any persons who share their opinion and respond to the question. Same applies to OP as well ofc :) We should focus on challenging the question not the persons behind them.

Regarding the theory - theory is okay but what I do think is that it makes harder to detect your real type by not too clearly telling it's about what drives you the most. May leave impression that funcs are equal, some just are stronger than others in our minds but it's not about their "strenght", it's more about your main focus / motivator. For example, person for whom X is dom and Y is aux, is pretty different from that one for whom Y is dom and X is aux - not bc of the strength of those but the main motive is in pretty different place. But maybe it's just me who sees things this way.
 
#25 ·
Guess what? People have different strengths. An INFP has a much easier time developing deep relationships than INTJ or even ENTJ, who tend to have many but shallow interactions.

Low Fi can make you chase meaningless rewards. Many NTJ's have stellar work ethics just to realise that they spend their entire life postponing happiness until they got that old and sick that they could never reap the benefits of their hard work... something that would never happen to an NFP. There are downsides, they just aren't obvious.
 
#28 · (Edited)
To develop some of the themes I mentioned yesterday:

Difference between T and F
It's difficult to distinguish between T and F when manifested in individual people. That's because T and F are both judging functions or "rational" functions (using Jung's terminology). Everyone has both of those functions in their top four stack, and everyone has different levels of comfort using them depending on their maturity, age, and level of personal development.

Typology descriptions reflect those problems: They have to focus on how T and F manifest themselves in individuals, and particularly in younger individuals: Because these days typology communities are largely composed of young people just discovering the typology field. So typology descriptions have to focus on just the most personal and salient points: Thinkers are logical and emotionless, while Feelers are illogical and emotional.

However, if you really want to see how T and F operate, the best approach is to look at an analog in society. T and F both get manifested in the larger world and the way the world runs itself. If you can spot that, then you'll have a better, broader grasp of their true nature.

So here is a simple metaphor (a "social analog") that shows how the two functions work and why there is so much tension between them: Feeling = Community leadership, while Thinking = Laws at the national level.

F = Community leadership
In a large, diverse nation such as the US, there are many different kinds of communities:
--Urban communities, suburban communities, rural communities, retirement communities, communities that are good for young parents, industrial communities, white-collar communities, etc.
--Sports communities, fitness communities, vacationing communities, on-line communities, communities based around issues like school boards, communities based around issues like political activism, etc.;
--Black communities, white communities, Italian communities, Hispanic communities, Chinese communities, and so on;
--Ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, Muslim communities, Christian communities, Fundamentalist communities, Wiccan communities, Atheist communities, and so on;
--Gay communities, conservative communities, progressive/woke communities, hippie communes, libertarian communities, etc;
--Pro-gun communities, anti-gun communities, pro-choice communities, pro-life communities, and so on;
--You get the picture...

Leaders at the community level tend to need good people-handling skills, in other words, Feeler skills. For example, if you're a pastor leading a church community, you probably don't need great legal skills. Instead you need to act as a pastoral counselor and help people work out moral and ethical disputes and calm down tensions between competing factions within the church.

To sum up: At the social level, Feelings are all about morals, ethics, building consensus, virtue, rewarding community spirit, altruism, etc. Communities play that role by providing the ethical and moral frameworks that make up day-to-day life. (Of course, Feelings can also be about the reverse of those things; Feelings can also be about things like fighting, punishing people you don't like, patriotism and going to war, etc.)

T = Legal system
When you look at that big list of communities that I provided above in the Feeler section, one word jumps out at you: Diversity. Communities = diversity, and diversity is good. But if all those different communities are going to coexist in a single nation, you need a single system of uniform laws that applies to all of them. The legal system is the opposite of diversity. The legal system = uniformity.

So when designing the legal system, law-makers need to come up with uniform laws that apply to all communities equally and promote equity between the communities. But they also don't want the laws to be oppressive and force everyone to live exactly the same way, because that would kill off the diversity of the communities. So the legal system has to walk a fine line between being light enough to let all the different communities live their own way but also being heavy enough to enforce some basic rights and make sure one community doesn't oppress other communities. That kind of law-making need a very fine, logical touch. It needs logic and a non-emotional approach.

This sort of work tends to be handled by law-makers, national-level "think tanks," philosophers, politicians, political pundits, lawyers and legal systems, etc.

To sum up: At the social level, Thinking is all about weighing competing needs, coming up with legal compromises that everyone can live with, working out legally fair systems when it comes to taxing people and creating social safety nets for the vulnerable, etc. It requires a lot of logic and development of legal and philosophical systems to ensure equity and fairness. (Of course, Thinking can also be about things like building dictatorships and exploiting other countries around you...)

Community versus Legal system (F vs T)
Communities and legal systems tend to be at odds. Any one community generally doesn't want the national legal system to be so oppressive that it kills off the distinctive features of their own community. But at the same time, that same community often wants to enshrine their own values in the law, to the point of forcing other communities to live according to their rules. Example: Conservatives don't want to have to live by liberals' rules, but they're perfectly happy to make laws that will force liberals to live by conservative rules. And vice versa.

So the communities tend to be like emotional kids, trying to push their own values and morals on others. And law-makers are like the logical parents, trying to come up with a set of uniform, logical rules that enable everyone to live together equitably, fairly, and without favoring any one community over another.

To sum up: Thinkers and Feelers have to work together. People need communities in order to provide the ethical and moral frameworks that make up day-to-day life. But they also need the logic of an equitable legal system that balances the needs of different communities and doesn't allow any one community to get too powerful and wipe out the rest.

Conclusion
So that's the "social analog" for Feeling vs Thinking.

Feelers tend to be your community leaders, working out the ethical and moral frameworks that make up day-to-day life.
--Fe-Doms do this directly within the community, leading by social consensus;
--Fi-Doms tend to come up with more structured systems of morals, ethics, hierarchies, pecking orders, and so on for guiding the community at times of internal conflict.

Thinkers tend to work better at the national level working out philosophical and legal systems for running the nation as a whole and sorting out the competing needs of all the different communities.
--Te-Doms do this directly at the national level by working out the rules for the so-called "social contract." That is, working out the day-to-day rules for interaction at the national level. See that term in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract
--Ti-Doms tend to work out the philosophical systems that underlie the legal system: What are "human rights"? What happens when certain human rights conflict? What's an equitable level of taxation (taking money from one community and giving it away free to another community)? And so on. You get the picture.
 
#30 ·
Okay, it appears me being an INTJ is a mistype, I am actualy an INFJ as I relate much more to the problems that Fe-Ti people experience over Te-Fi (I've read it on MBTI Notes), however if Feelers have good people-handling skills, then why do I suck at it so much? I'm always taking an detached, aloof stance, even if I want to start to socialise with people, I just get overwhelmed with the work needed to be put in order to initialise a conversation with people, and honestly I've never been a leader, I was always more of a lone-wolf person for most of my life.
 
#37 ·
@Internal tf you are celebrating his posts? This individual tries too hard to manipulate others into making me look like I am a terrible person, there is nothing to celebrate in him responding to me with hostility.
 
#39 ·
I could have told you that you weren't INTJ. Actually, I did but that's by the by.

When you are looking at your type you need to understand that none of them are lesser or greater in their abilities. They are just the way information is processed. Everyone has someone say something shitty and stereotyped about their type and we could talk about Ni doms have an irrational first function and yet for some reason get called robots or serial killers or edgelords.

Instead of trying to change your type to one you think is more acceptable perhaps try with the one that actually matches you (INFP) and throw it into the same basket of other things you don't like about yourself like height, hair, thighs etc. It's all part of the same issue.
 
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