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Discussion Starter #1
Probably it's only me, but i've got the feeling that i am on to something...

So, i think there are great misunderstandings about the two Mbti-personality-systems (because half of all online-sites use one system and disregard the other...but newbies can't easily differ between these systems!)


Here is the deal:
Without functions (1) i am an INFP AND with functions (2) i am an INTP.



How could this be? And what's the explanation of this?


(1) without functions you've got your 4 dichtomies: I/E, N/S, F/T, J/P

If i go only with this interpretation, i am a clear INFP. Because i can't identify with the often seen T-descriptions of cold-blooded, in-your-face-critism and egocentrism. (Yeah, i am exaggerating a little bit... but you probably know, what i mean! ;-) )

My theory is this:
I think the F/T-difference often presented is similar to the two functions Fe/Te. On the one side the "sweet networkmaster", who loves people and on the other side the "in-your-face-thinker", who hates all people and only lives to critisize.

(This system has no differention between Ti and Te! And the functions Fi and Ti are not really implicated...)

I lean more towards the F(e) description. Perhaps, because Fe comes before Te in the stacking in an INTP...

INTP:
1. Ti
2. Ne
3. Si
4. Fe
---
5. Te
6. Ni
7. Se
8. Fi

The function-model (2) is (imho) much more precise, because it's dynamic. Ti (dominant) and Fe (inferior) [in an IXTP] fit together and influence each other. The inferior is something of a wish/goal/attraction point for the Ti... it's not and either/or, but much more complex.

But back to my core-point: I am an INTP, for sure (especially because of the personalityjunkie-description of the INTP). But the interpretation of this system WITHOUT functions and these descriptions did make my self-search very difficult...(INXP's love to doubt, as you may know... :wink: )

The functions have two different T's. One is introverted and often not visible (instead you see the Fe!) and the other is the typical "Thinker"/Te.

So, my problem is solved. I long thought i was an INFP, because of a lot of tests, but i am no Fi-dominant, i am a header (Ti), but the different systems have made my way a long one indeed...perhaps this post helps in making your way a little shorter? :proud:
 

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The function model also has faults. What if the functions you identify most with are Ne and Se? How is this possible, but the dichotomies allow you to see preferences between S/N and T/F. It makes typing easier, but it's less accurate.
 

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Funny because I had the same experience with opposite results. I tested as an INTP if you ignore cognitive functions (or on the shitty tests that don't know how to truly separate F and T with their questions) but if you look at the cognitive functions I'm an INFP. Plus I relate far better to INFP though I can see how I mixed up T and F because I am quite logical and a thinker.
 

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Lotus Jester
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I just took a variation on the MBTI that has me borderline on almost everything except for N/S, although on most MBTI tests, I show a clear preference for I over E. My J/P preference is also confusing because when it comes to myself alone, as well as organization and punctuality; I am a clear P but when it involves making plans in the environment and with others, I am a J.

On a recent cognitive functions test I took; I got: 1) INTP, 2) INFJ and 3) ENTP; which all involve some combination of Ti/Fe, but I think that the OP's analogy makes sense to me. because I am way too logical and analytical to fit the preference of INFP, and far too caring and sensitive to meet the description of INTJ; so if I disregard the entire J/P thing; I fit the profiles of INTP, INFJ (possibly ENTP), the best.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
The function model also has faults. What if the functions you identify most with are Ne and Se? How is this possible, but the dichotomies allow you to see preferences between S/N and T/F. It makes typing easier, but it's less accurate.
Sure, the function model has it faults, nothing is perfect, it's all about approximation to nature. But i think the function model is nearer at "nature", because it's dynamic and no real either/or.

So the danger of prejudice is much lower! The dichotomy-system creates prejudices for example between "touchy networker" (F) and "in-your-face-genius" (T). The functions are much more complex, because everything affects the other.
My T, as an INTP, is introverted/strong and my F is extroverted/weak. But because of my Fe i am no classic-T. I don't like "in-your-face", i love harmony and i will shut my mouths, when its appropiate and i would hurt somebody. But i am no "feeling-dominant", because i live in my head. The functions can explain this, the dichotomies not. Thats the core-asset, i am talking about. :wink:

Funny because I had the same experience with opposite results. I tested as an INTP if you ignore cognitive functions (or on the shitty tests that don't know how to truly separate F and T with their questions) but if you look at the cognitive functions I'm an INFP. Plus I relate far better to INFP though I can see how I mixed up T and F because I am quite logical and a thinker.
I think Ti/Fe is much "softer" on the outside than Fi/Te, so it's very easy to think to be a T, when you truly are a Fi-dominant.

I just took a variation on the MBTI that has me borderline on almost everything except for N/S, although on most MBTI tests, I show a clear preference for I over E. My J/P preference is also confusing because when it comes to myself alone, as well as organization and punctuality; I am a clear P but when it involves making plans in the environment and with others, I am a J.

On a recent cognitive functions test I took; I got: 1) INTP, 2) INFJ and 3) ENTP; which all involve some combination of Ti/Fe, but I think that the OP's analogy makes sense to me. because I am way too logical and analytical to fit the preference of INFP, and far too caring and sensitive to meet the description of INTJ; so if I disregard the entire J/P thing; I fit the profiles of INTP, INFJ (possibly ENTP), the best.
Interesting! I can recommend the "personality-junkie"-site, because this site explains in detail the complex web of functions.
For me your text sounds as Ni/Fe. More or less relaxed observing (Ni) with extroverted, feeling judgment (planning etc.).
 

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Lotus Jester
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Sure, the function model has it faults, nothing is perfect, it's all about approximation to nature. But i think the function model is nearer at "nature", because it's dynamic and no real either/or.

So the danger of prejudice is much lower! The dichotomy-system creates prejudices for example between "touchy networker" (F) and "in-your-face-genius" (T). The functions are much more complex, because everything affects the other.
My T, as an INTP, is introverted/strong and my F is extroverted/weak. But because of my Fe i am no classic-T. I don't like "in-your-face", i love harmony and i will shut my mouths, when its appropiate and i would hurt somebody. But i am no "feeling-dominant", because i live in my head. The functions can explain this, the dichotomies not. Thats the core-asset, i am talking about. :wink:


I think Ti/Fe is much "softer" on the outside than Fi/Te, so it's very easy to think to be a T, when you truly are a Fi-dominant.


Interesting! I can recommend the "personality-junkie"-site, because this site explains in detail the complex web of functions.
For me your text sounds as Ni/Fe. More or less relaxed observing (Ni) with extroverted, feeling judgment (planning etc.).
Interesting, because I can totally relate to how you describe yourself. I also pretty much, for all practical purposes live in my head. I have gotten INFP on some tests but I honestly don't relate to Fi at all; I think, even less than Te. At least I understand what that is. I can always explain my observations using either Ti or Fe logic

So, you think that I am an INFJ - Ni/Fe as opposed to INTP - Ti/Ne or any other combination of XNXX? Can you explain what exactly about my text caused you to arrive at that conclusion?

I have observed the behaviour of INTPs and INFJs both online and IRL and I also know that they both have been mistyped either as each other of as ENTP. I am very concise in my speech - Ti influence - which is how I figured out that I have to have some combination of Ti/Fe. When I read descriptions of Ni/Ne I can relate to both of them, but perhaps Ni a little more? I know that I am not Te/Fi either for not only reasons that I already mentioned above, but when I was in University; the typical comment I would receive on my essay was: "excellent ideas, could be better organized"; so no Te, lol.
 

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Lotus Jester
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Let's just say considering IEI, LII, and being totally Ti-Fe and not Fi-Te is not unfamiliar to me ;)
You should be able to relate to this, then:

PerC Cognitive Function Test
This is the result of my latest test

"Based on your cognitive functions, your type is most likely:

Most Likely: INTP
or Second Possibility: INFJ
or Third Possibility: ENTP
"


Your Cognitive Functions:
Introverted Thinking (Ti) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.99
Introverted Intuition (Ni) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.58
Extroverted Intuition (Ne) ||||||||||||||||||||| 9.73
Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||||||||||| 8.54
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ||||||||||||||| 6.94
Extroverted Feeling (Fe) ||||||||||||||| 6.52
Extroverted Thinking (Te) |||||||||||||| 6.24
Extroverted Sensation (Se) ||||||||| 3.57

Your Introverted Intuition (Ni) is very developed.
Your Introverted Thinking (Ti) is very developed.
Your Extroverted Intuition (Ne) is moderate.
Your Introverted Sensation (Si) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Thinking (Te) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is moderate.
Your Introverted Feeling (Fi) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Sensation (Se) is poorly developed.


Your cognitive functions are, in order of development:
Ti - Ni - Ne - Si - Fi - Fe - Te - Se

Here are some quick descriptions of your functions, in order of preference:

The Introverted Thinking (Ti) function is used when an individual analyzes something, breaks it apart, and categorizes and defines its elements. This is the foundation of logical thinking. Ti is crucial in identifying logical inconsistencies and putting together logical arguments. Those with strong Ti usually have an ability to remain objective even when it may bother others.

The Introverted Intuition (Ni) function implicitly recognizes that one term can have multiple meanings, and allows the individual to disconnect themselves from the concept of 'objective truth'. This allows those with strong Ni to 'rewire' the connections that form a concept and test it from new and unique angles. This is why the Ni dominant types are often called analysts: they can pull apart an idea and test each individual piece to see how it changes the whole.

The Extroverted Intuition (Ne) function is oriented toward generating new possibilities. Ne is all about brainstorming - imagining a variety of possible outcomes and considering them all to be possibly true. Ne is associated with new ideas and innovative breakthroughs.

The Introverted Sensation (Si) function compares past events with current events. Si is associated with vivid memory recall and a reliance on experiential learning. Those with strong Si often prefer to take a 'hands on approach'. On the other hand, those with weak Si often do not benefit from interacting in that way.

The Introverted Feeling (Fi) function attempts to find meaning in the world. In this sense, 'feeling' doesn't necessarily mean 'emotions' - it refers to the subjective and subtle sense of value within a situation. It is often associated with gut reactions about the fairness or goodness of an interaction. Those with strong Fi usually care less about objective facts and more about what's fair or right.

The Extroverted Feeling (Fe) function is used when an individual acts in a considerate way to the feelings and beliefs of the people around them. Those with strong Fe can easily empathize with other people and is the most likely to be a 'people person.' Those with weak Fe may find themselves offending people unintentionally.

The Extroverted Thinking (Te) function imposes our own order on the world around us. Te structures the world in logical ways, ranging from the physical world (your desk, your office, etc) to concepts (creating 'flow charts' of ideas in your mind.)

The Extroverted Sensation (Se) function is associated with a vivid perception of the world, taking into account details that others may miss. Se is about being closely tuned to the world around you, and that usually translates into following 'gut impulses' and taking great pleasure in physical action. Those with weak Se may sometimes feel 'disconnected' from the world around them.
 

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Lotus Jester
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@TreasureTower

Yeah I tend to score high on both the N's and T, and for F and S it really depends on the day and what I choose to emphasize if you know what I mean.
I really don't know what I'm feeling more than half of the time; I'm a 5w4 BTW. I also have great difficulty with organization but I can do it, if I absolutely have to. I am very aware of social mores but in group situations; I always feel extremely awkward and out of place.

In watching various type videos on YouTube; I have noticed that both INTPs and INFJs tend to be both concise and easy to follow in their thought progression; where as INFPs tend to be a bit scattered and INTJs, can be a bit monotonous.
 
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Interesting, because I can totally relate to how you describe yourself. I also pretty much, for all practical purposes live in my head. I have gotten INFP on some tests but I honestly don't relate to Fi at all; I think, even less than Te. At least I understand what that is. I can always explain my observations using either Ti or Fe logic
Yeah, my core-problem with the INFP-stacking was, that it said Thinking (Te) was my last function! There was no real explanation for why i feel living in my head! And for the fact, that i have no real clue how i feel about things...(which would be easier for a Fi-dominant, i think.) But it was possible. Why? I have an attraction to "thinking" in general and problems with "feeling" ("feeling", for me, means dramatical outbursts!). After all the "Te-Inferior-Attraction-Point" would have made sense and i considered it, because of the INFP(dichotomy)-test-results i got and i try very hard not to fool myself! It would be a disaster for me, when i would get something of a proof that i ignorantly lied to myself...about how i see myself! So, i thought: "Yeah, maybe you are not the great thinker, you wish to be. You would like, yes, so you can be inferior-Te and dominant Fi. Don't fool yourself!" And because i am not much into math, informatics, abstract linguistics etc. (which i thought to be Ti-interests and core-competences!), INFP made sense (and perhaps in half a year will, again, make sense -.-", because of Ne-doubt-issues). But for now, the dynamics of the Ti/Fe are much more fitting for me and explain a lot of my behaviour.
So, you think that I am an INFJ - Ni/Fe as opposed to INTP - Ti/Ne or any other combination of XNXX? Can you explain what exactly about my text caused you to arrive at that conclusion?
Yeah, i can try. ;-) BUT: You can find/analyse a lot and find every function in every text. It's a matter of how you look at it. And i have my unique function-lenses who see, what others may see different. So, be cautious with my interpretation! ;-) On the other hand (for now ^^) i think it's essential to have somebody as a mirror to find your own personality (especially the shadow-sites of yourself!), because it's really difficult to see oneself clear and truthful. I asked a friend about my INXP-Problem. And for him, it was pretty clear, that i am no INFP at all! And his explanation made a lot of sense! One example: I thought i would be a Fi-dom, because i don't like seeing somebody in distress. At a party, for example, when a girl sits there alone. In 50 of 100 cases i go there, because i feel pity for her. And my friend knows that i am this kind of guy. But he put it that way: I would not be the person, who really "feels" with the lone-party-girl, but i would sit there and let him/her talk. I would know, that it would be more helpful when i get there and hug him/her or something like that. But i could and would NEVER do that! It feels very...odd to only think about it! I could give rationalisation en masse...but i can't give emotional "niceties". Even, if a know, it's appropriate! But enough of me! ;-)
I just took a variation on the MBTI that has me borderline on almost everything except for N/S, although on most MBTI tests, I show a clear preference for I over E.
When N/S i so clear, as you say, it sounds like N-dom and inferior-S. That's easy. :-D (Although you have to keep in mind that you could fool yourself :-D )
My J/P preference is also confusing because when it comes to myself alone, as well as organization and punctuality; I am a clear P but when it involves making plans in the environment and with others, I am a J.
That sounds like the crux of Ni-dom and the extroverted-judging-auxiliary accompaining it. ;-) Ni is playful, relaxed, about ideas, speculating and PERCEIVING! INNER PERCEIVING! So it would be logical, that you are relaxed when it comes to yourself alone. But about others your second function comes in to play (INFJ = Fe, INTJ = Te) and it's extroverted judgment. It helps making plans and to communicate judgements to the outside world. An INTP is much more judging at first, but it's INNER judging (Ti), which nobody can see so easily. The extroverted judging is much lower in the function stack (Fe-Inferior), so INTP have problems in communicating "hard" topics, because they think/feel like a child because of their inferior-Fe. Also their playful side comes with their auxiliary-Ne. First they judge (they make INNER plans), than secondly they perceive (Ne) and often loose their INNER plans and get distracted easily. So, INTP's are inner-rulemakers and INXJ are outer-rulemakers. So the P/J-thing can be very confusing, eh? ;-)
On a recent cognitive functions test I took; I got: 1) INTP, 2) INFJ and 3) ENTP; which all involve some combination of Ti/Fe, but I think that the OP's analogy makes sense to me. because I am way too logical and analytical to fit the preference of INFP, and far too caring and sensitive to meet the description of INTJ; so if I disregard the entire J/P thing; I fit the profiles of INTP, INFJ (possibly ENTP), the best.
It's all quite possible. You have to find your inner-drama. Is it a Ti/Fe-Drama, a Ni/Se-Drama or a Ne/Si-Drama? (Everybody has two dramas inside, but one is very dominant and i think the dominant drama is the one, we are much more blind to!) For me it was really clear that i have some Intution in me (and a lot less sensing!). That was quite clear. But the tricky part was my F/T. The INTP has a love-hate-relationship with Fe, which makes this all very difficult to see! I don't have a love-/hate relationship with Si, so i am no ENXP, i think (i favor Ne, and don't like/use Si very much). I could have been a love-hate-relationship with Te, but i can't identify with Fi, so INFP doesn't make sense. Clear?! :p Typing imho is much easier when you have function-pairs like dom/inferior or dom/auxiliary. Which muster makes the most sense for you?
I know that I am not Te/Fi either for not only reasons that I already mentioned above, but when I was in University; the typical comment I would receive on my essay was: "excellent ideas, could be better organized"; so no Te, lol.
Hmm...my first thought was: Ti is also about organisation, to make things "clear", give structure. But its something of a personal, not an objective structure! Ni is about ideas and not about presentation of ideas! ;-) For that you need an extroverted function like Te or Fe. So i think your essay-example speaks an intuitive language, Ne or Ni, i can't tell. :)
 
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I score super high on Ti and Fi. Socionics seems to reconcile that problem - LII has both high up in stack.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I score super high on Ti and Fi. Socionics seems to reconcile that problem - LII has both high up in stack.
Hmm..okay, i am not much into socionics, but in the Jungian-Function-Model Ti and Fi are like fire and water or hero and devil. Two similar lense, which view in opposite directions... How does Socionics solve this problem?
 

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Hmm..okay, i am not much into socionics, but in the Jungian-Function-Model Ti and Fi are like fire and water or hero and devil. Two similar lense, which view in opposite directions... How does Socionics solve this problem?
Kinda the same way. For an LII Fi is the role function, which basically counters the lead function (Ti). It's like an on-off valve for one or the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Kinda the same way. For an LII Fi is the role function, which basically counters the lead function (Ti). It's like an on-off valve for one or the other.
So in socionics Fi = Fe? When the INTP struggles with the Ti/Fe-Conflict, the LII struggles with the Ti/Fi-Conflict?
 

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So in socionics Fi = Fe? When the INTP struggles with the Ti/Fe-Conflict, the LII struggles with the Ti/Fi-Conflict?
In socionics Fi seems to be about humanity, one's humanitarian sensibility. Fe in socionics might be raw emotional expression.

In MBTI, Fe is something like group ethics and Fi is something like individual values.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
In socionics Fi seems to be about humanity, one's humanitarian sensibility. Fe in socionics might be raw emotional expression. In MBTI, Fe is something like group ethics and Fi is something like individual values.
Ok, thx! :) One question though: So the LII is the "INTP" in socionics (high Fi / high Ti?)? Or what?
 
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