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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Many people misunderstand the J and P functions (and many sites miss represent them) and this creates miss conceptions about the differences of the two (J's are clean, P's are not as an example).

Judgers deal with their outside world first, so they can deal with their inside world. Perceivers deal with their inside world first so they can then deal with their outside world.

Example: J's clean a room in order to feel good, P's clean the room when they feel like it.

Thus J's move their decision making (Feeling or Thinking) to the forefront, before they deal with the perception of information, and a P would deal with the perception of the information before making a judgement on it.

ENTJ Extroverted thinker, introverted intuitive
ENTP Extroverted intuitive, introverted thinker
INTJ Introverted intuitive, extroverted thinker
INTP Introverted Thinker, extroverted intuitive

Another miss-understanding is of the extroverted and introverted functions. This is simply where you get your energy, but this flow of energy determines how you express and process your ideas. You can see that the INTP and the ENTP are very similar, save for swapping the dominant function. Since the dominant function of an extrovert is from the outside world, that is where they get their energy from. The energy from an introvert comes from the inside world. Your world is determined by a perception (introverted or sensing) and an action or judging aspect (Feeler or Thinker). Since judgers deal with their outside world first, the judging aspect (F or T) becomes the extroverted object. Perceivers deal with their inside world first so the perceiving aspect(the S or N) becomes their extroverted function.

Under this concept we can say this then:
ENTJ Gets energy from the extroverted judging aspect (Thinking), hence they make decisions very quickly and enjoy doing so.
ENTP Gets energy from the extroverted perceiving aspect (Intuition), hence they get passionate about their ideas and communicating them.
INTJ Gets energy from applying their introverted ideas (Intuition), (remember J's deal with their outside world first) seeing concrete evidence of the idea.
INTP Gets energy from introverting ideas themselves (Thinking), but not the act of actually doing it.

Once you begin to see this through the lens of the flow of energy, you begin to see how the E and I vs J and P really determine where we get energy, and how we expend energy. And what order we do that in. Do we get energy from acting on an idea, or merely the concepts, do we get energy from our emotions, or the sensual experience of it. Do we spend energy toward our passions, or toward creating our ideas. Do we spend energy on creating concepts or interacting tangibly with our world?

I am an ENFP, I get my energy from people and their intuition and ideas. It costs me energy to judge my world, so I expend energy only toward the things I am passionate about (If I lose passion, I stop working, yes it's frustrating). An ENFJ gets energy from emotionally judging (acting on) their world around them, and how people feel about them. It costs them energy to really think about a concept or make a decision for themselves, thus they will spend their energy making people feel good and serving other people, before they deal with their own needs or perceptions.

So an ENFJ will focus on cleaning their room so they can finally sit down and reflect. An ENFP will only clean their room when they are motivated to by their inside world. Hence why I only clean my room when I feel like it.
 

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One way I saw it explained that I liked, that I thought really made sense, was that it's not so much where you get your energy as much as what requires the least amount of energy.

Like, for me, being Ti-dom, that means that Ti is the easiest and most natural function for me to use, so it requires the least amount of energy.

I always got confused when it said introversion/extroversion was where you "get" energy. It makes a lot more sense, I think, that it's just where you don't have to use up energy because it's like your natural state or whatever. Like your default setting. Because like you don't "get" energy from sitting down, you just don't use any, so it gets to recharge.
 

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:D

very informative MBTI wise, and yet also a very persuasive argument for not cleaning one's room.
 

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While I like the explanation, and agree that there's a good deal of misinformation floating about regarding E/I and J/P meanings... I've never been able to really understand anything to do with "energy". I have no sense of it, either 'getting energy' from something or 'recharging', or 'losing energy'... I realize I'm probably being too literal with the way I'm trying to interpret the theme, but I just can't get an internal grasp of what that -means-.

Ask me what my 'Energy Level' is... I don't really know what's being asked. I'm a bit tired, but have whatever 'energy' is needed to do what I need to do, today. Probably too much, all told, as I have problems sleeping. (Again, too literal, but it's all I've got when really trying to -get- the energy thing.)
 

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While I like the explanation, and agree that there's a good deal of misinformation floating about regarding E/I and J/P meanings... I've never been able to really understand anything to do with "energy". I have no sense of it, either 'getting energy' from something or 'recharging', or 'losing energy'... I realize I'm probably being too literal with the way I'm trying to interpret the theme, but I just can't get an internal grasp of what that -means-.

Ask me what my 'Energy Level' is... I don't really know what's being asked. I'm a bit tired, but have whatever 'energy' is needed to do what I need to do, today. Probably too much, all told, as I have problems sleeping. (Again, too literal, but it's all I've got when really trying to -get- the energy thing.)
It's like when I have to go to class or something, or especially if I end up having to talk to the class, afterward it's just kind of draining. Not that I'm actually physically tired or anything, but just more mentally exhausted, I guess. Like, "Okay, that was enough people for one day!" And then I go home and just don't feel like talking to people, because I've used up all my will to talk to people for right then, so I have to just chill out in front of the TV or something, or maybe I'll grab some food or go on the internet. Just something alone, until I'm ready to talk to people again. I also find that it's a lot less draining to be with other introverts, like my dad, because he doesn't mind talking slowly or quietly, and he doesn't feel the need to fill every moment of silence with talking just for the sake of talking.

It's like, there's physical energy, where if you use up too much in too little time, like if you were running or something, then after you just wanna sit down and not use up a single more ounce of physical energy, and lie on the floor and go "mommy, i'm too weak too move. Can you bring me a cookie?"

With people energy, it's kind of the same. Like, if I'm just with my family or close friends, that doesn't use up much people energy. I can hang out with them all day, just like I can walk for a really long time without running out of physical energy. Being with too many people, though, like at class or at a party, is like using up all my people energy at once. Like if I were to sprint for three miles, it'd use up all my physical energy. So I have to be alone and quiet for a while until I'm not so people-exhausted.

I don't know if that made any sense -__-
 

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I think 'energy' is one of those words that people misinterpret in this context. Jung and Freud spoke of it more in the form of libido, where (to Jung) psychic energy or cognitive thought was neutral and could be directed in a given direction (introversion or extraversion) habitually to form a type.

When people talk about energy in this sense though they are talking about something completely different more like chi or chakras or orgone, more like a life-force kind of thing. That is not really what this is about and so all of the analogies about 'getting' energy or whatever are really coming from a separate point of reference. Often times when people say "I get energy" they are really meaning they have a positive emotional reaction (which can be the result of anything) or that they do not feel any sense of restriction toward that activity (again could be the result of anything). It would be very hard to break this down into relating directly to a given thought process i.e. "because I have an MBTI preference for Sensation, sensory-oriented things enliven me". It is more or less assumed that if you have a preference for a given function over another that it is, in part, because this is a path-of-least-resistance approach for you (regardless of whether you subscribe to Jung's idea that type is habituated or MBTI's idea that type is the result of innate preferences). This does not however always mean that utilization of this function, or set of functions will always produce results that enliven an individual. In fact quite the contrary, as Von Franz writes, a person could easily wear themselves out and become unbalanced. I also suspect environmental and other factors to play a role. i'm not convinced, as Beebe writes about in A Jungian Analyst Talks about Psychological Types that just because your dominant function is x, living your life in accordance with that results in the best overall disposition. A person who is an Intuitive living in a very Sensation-oriented house might have a hellacious time.
 

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So let me make sure I understand this correctly.

-Thinking/Feeling functions are judging functions
-Sensing/Intuition functions are perceiving functions

So with that said I, believing myself to be INFJ, would be a perceiver instead of a judger (despite having a "J" at the end of my type) because the lead function, introverted intuition (Ni), is a perceiving function?
 

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So let me make sure I understand this correctly.

-Thinking/Feeling functions are judging functions
-Sensing/Intuition functions are perceiving functions

So with that said I, believing myself to be INFJ, would be a perceiver instead of a judger (despite having a "J" at the end of my type) because the lead function, introverted intuition (Ni), is a perceiving function?
No, whether you're a P or a J is dependent on whether your Judging or Perceiving function is Extraverted.
INFJ would equal: Introverted Intuition, Extraverted Feeling. Even though as an introvert your N is dominant, your F is the one that's extraverted. An INFP would be Introverted Feeling, Extraverted Intuition and thus a perceiver. :)
 
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No, whether you're a P or a J is dependent on whether your Judging or Perceiving function is Extraverted.
INFJ would equal: Introverted Intuition, Extraverted Feeling. Even though as an introvert your N is dominant, your F is the one that's extraverted. An INFP would be Introverted Feeling, Extraverted Intuition and thus a perceiver. :)
Just as I walked away from my computer it made sense!!!XD
Thanks for clarifying it for me lol
 

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Many people misunderstand the J and P functions (and many sites miss represent them) and this creates miss conceptions about the differences of the two (J's are clean, P's are not as an example).
Could you please provide examples of the misconceptions people make about J and P functions? I'd like to have a reference to know whats what, because I liked your article.
 

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In extroverts, it's pretty much regular.
The flipping around on introverts seems arbitrary but at least it makes for quick abbreviations.
It seems like it kind of does away with classical type dynamics.

That said, online tests on that dichotomy are particularly abysmal. It doesn't say in Gifts Differing that one is about missing appointments while the other is about being stingy over such a thing.
 

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The one, slight problem I have with this is that the degree of energy I get from an act really does fluctuate, depending on my physical health, previous interactions with people, etc. Does this system take that into account?
 

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INFPs are a good example of how 'perceivers' can be tidy people. The first thing they do is make a value "judgement" of the idea of uncleanliness (because of dominant Fi). Then, the act of cleaning and organizing make them feel better. Their secondary Ne drives them to make changes in the real world. The fact that their extroverted function is perceiving makes them a perceiver because that's how it's defined. And you could argue that they perceived uncleanliness before they judged the idea, but then you could argue that they decided to perceive it because they first judged it.

Which comes first doesn't matter. Does the INTJ perceive a body of facts and then logically judge/analyze the world? Or does the INTJ perceive facts BECAUSE they judged the world?

Also, I've seen messy STJs and SFJs. I'm pretty sure general messiness has more to do with the sensing function.
 

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INFPs are a good example of how 'perceivers' can be tidy people. The first thing they do is make a value "judgement" of the idea of uncleanliness (because of dominant Fi). Then, the act of cleaning and organizing make them feel better. Their secondary Ne drives them to make changes in the real world. The fact that their extroverted function is perceiving makes them a perceiver because that's how it's defined. And you could argue that they perceived uncleanliness before they judged the idea, but then you could argue that they decided to perceive it because they first judged it.

Which comes first doesn't matter. Does the INTJ perceive a body of facts and then logically judge/analyze the world? Or does the INTJ perceive facts BECAUSE they judged the world?

Also, I've seen messy STJs and SFJs. I'm pretty sure general messiness has more to do with the sensing function.
This reminds me of two MBTI videos.
(first 25 seconds)

(EN*P with a clean room in the background)
 

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Also, I've seen messy STJs and SFJs. I'm pretty sure general messiness has more to do with the sensing function.
You think S types are more likely to be messy than N types? Any particular reason?
 

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INFPs are a good example of how 'perceivers' can be tidy people. The first thing they do is make a value "judgement" of the idea of uncleanliness (because of dominant Fi). Then, the act of cleaning and organizing make them feel better. Their secondary Ne drives them to make changes in the real world. The fact that their extroverted function is perceiving makes them a perceiver because that's how it's defined. And you could argue that they perceived uncleanliness before they judged the idea, but then you could argue that they decided to perceive it because they first judged it.

Which comes first doesn't matter. Does the INTJ perceive a body of facts and then logically judge/analyze the world? Or does the INTJ perceive facts BECAUSE they judged the world?

Also, I've seen messy STJs and SFJs. I'm pretty sure general messiness has more to do with the sensing function.
Try again. I'm a slob. My ISTJ ex was the neat freak.
 
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