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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
With some women now I have felt like they have a double desire.. a dilemma... sometimes I would call a hidden agenda.
I am thinking of women aged 20-30ish.

Freedom is a big thing, individuality, self-sufficiency and all. But women also know that the biological clock is running if they want children and settle.
It can be taboo or bad thing to directly wish for?, besides being in two minds themselves.


So for example to venture into a long distance relationship or to be with someone who hasn't gotten education yet, or just not proven himself workwise. That doesn't fall into the later un-spoken plans.

And if you should mention any of this.. marriage.. kids.. settle.. will totally freak out.. althought there IS a wish and idea for it to happen sometime.

????

Am I totally off here?.


I mean, I have tried a couple of times now where woman says she would like to settle in some years.. (Sometimes as if something that slips out).. all goes well, but god forbid if you talk anything about it more than once or twice, then you will spook, maybe followed by "I don't want to settle at all.. that life.. just be in kitchen or whatever". As if life suddenly was about to end.
And I didn't mean to rush or anything, just that I like her so much that it could be a dream with her.
 

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Do you have children or have you ever taken care of any for a prolonged period of time?

If you cannot afford nannies, your life as a single person - freedom as it's called - does end with children. Your desires have to be put on hold for their well-being for about two decades. I've known plenty of mothers within that age range who say they regret their choices. The prevalent murmur is 'I love but kids, but if I had to do it all over again...'

And would you blame them? The women I'm talking about aren't pampered, are usually single and if they're married, their husbands can't afford for one of them to stay at home. They work, pick up the kids, come home to more work: cooking, cleaning, helping children with homework and dealing with their spouse's burdens if they aren't tired already.

I've seen this too many times and have helped to raise too many kids to want to walk into that life willingly at my age, if ever.

If the women you date said they'd like to settle down later, then take them at their word. And if you're worried about pushing a new girl away, then don't even mention it until she does. I don't really care for you suggesting that this may be the only reason why these ladies are freaking out around you, but just know that many women in that age range are enjoying the ability to choose their life path that men have enjoyed for millennia. You shouldn't be surprised by young women choosing to remain childless.
 

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I think there are many reasons why people break up. Do you ask them where they see themselves in 5 years?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Do you have children or have you ever taken care of any for a prolonged period of time?

If you cannot afford nannies, your life as a single person - freedom as it's called - does end with children. Your desires have to be put on hold for their well-being for about two decades. I've known plenty of mothers within that age range who say they regret their choices. The prevalent murmur is 'I love but kids, but if I had to do it all over again...'

And would you blame them? The women I'm talking about aren't pampered, are usually single and if they're married, their husbands can't afford for one of them to stay at home. They work, pick up the kids, come home to more work: cooking, cleaning, helping children with homework and dealing with their spouse's burdens if they aren't tired already.

I've seen this too many times and have helped to raise too many kids to want to walk into that life willingly at my age, if ever.

If the women you date said they'd like to settle down later, then take them at their word. And if you're worried about pushing a new girl away, then don't even mention it until she does. I don't really care for you suggesting that this may be the only reason why these ladies are freaking out around you, but just know that many women in that age range are enjoying the ability to choose their life path that men have enjoyed for millennia. You shouldn't be surprised by young women choosing to remain childless.
Didn't say it was only reason.

I actually know or known many single mothers with children, and I can only totally agree, and it's the same I heard them say often. Not something that is nice to hear at all, but in some situations you can understand, it's hardworking as single parent.
But that wasn't really what I was thinking about with my post, I don't plan to leave my woman to raise children alone, of course if she would find me not good and not want me that is other story then, then that is how it would be, but hopefully still help.

I was thinking that out of niceness or the dilemma I talked about, that it will be this way. That it will be this unspoken thing that almost can seem like a secret.


Yes, I think your right.. I should just let her talk about it when she wants. To just know that sometime later will be good enough to know.

And nope, not surprised if many women choose to stay childless, it's a choice. But it also could become "in" again to have family. In my country i heard stories of there being a baby-boom again even thought many have been so worried that everything will collapse.
 

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I read both of your posts in this thread and I'm confused, I don't see a clear point that I can pick todiscuss or to comment on. I'm not sure what you mean...
With some women now I have felt like they have a double desire.. a dilemma... sometimes I would call a hidden agenda.
I am thinking of women aged 20-30ish.
That sounds like something I've seen, a hidden agenda. We can take 100 diff individuals saying want to get married but they are all different with diff goals, and diff ways to live that "relationship", and to many of them... the relationship is only the plate where their truth dreams and agenda is served... is needed but to serve another purpose (sure they don't see it that way and won't say it, but it is that way, and some see it only years later in therapy).

It's well known for older people that women can have long detailes plans about you (that you don't know) and have a mission for you, a role for you to play. I had heated discussions about this with female friends, they hated my words. But the good thing on us being friends is... AFTER YEARS some of them were able to see my point, how? hearing how most women (their own friends?) talk about their plans and agendas... agendas that they don't discuss with their partners. If such things fail... shit, some people break up and run to some other arms trying to avoid wasting time while attempting those dreams and agenda to come true.
 

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I’m trying to see if I understand you correctly...

You’re dating women in their 20s who state a desire to someday marry and have kids. FYI, college educated women don’t often see that happening until late 20s, earliest, and apparantly their most common age for marriage is in their early 30s. That biological clock stuff is over-exaggerated and often doesn’t kick in until the 30s, even mid 30s. Good news is, that means they’re looking for a good partner they truly love in a romantic relationship, not simply any man to fill the role of husband and father out of desperation.

However, you notice they don’t respond positively to discussion of commitment and marriage early on in dating. This is not at odds with a long term goal. It means the don’t want to get caught up in some fantasy before they know if someone is a good partner, before they decide it could be a lasting love, and certainly not before both or one of you is ready in the practical ways. Comments about not wanting to be tied to the kitchen or whatever is possibly a way of asserting their desires and values - what they want their marriage to be like, the kind of lifestyle they want. Instead of getting caught up in a romantic fantasy, they’re being practical. That actually seems smart to me.

If anything, they’ve been super open with you. They want marriage and kids someday, but not just yet. They’re strongly implying they aren’t traditionalists. Being that honest is rather the opposite of a hidden agenda....
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I’m trying to see if I understand you correctly...

You’re dating women in their 20s who state a desire to someday marry and have kids. FYI, college educated women don’t often see that happening until late 20s, earliest, and apparantly their most common age for marriage is in their early 30s. That biological clock stuff is over-exaggerated and often doesn’t kick in until the 30s, even mid 30s. Good news is, that means they’re looking for a good partner they truly love in a romantic relationship, not simply any man to fill the role of husband and father out of desperation.

However, you notice they don’t respond positively to discussion of commitment and marriage early on in dating. This is not at odds with a long term goal. It means the don’t want to get caught up in some fantasy before they know if someone is a good partner, before they decide it could be a lasting love, and certainly not before both or one of you is ready in the practical ways. Comments about not wanting to be tied to the kitchen or whatever is possibly a way of asserting their desires and values - what they want their marriage to be like, the kind of lifestyle they want. Instead of getting caught up in a romantic fantasy, they’re being practical. That actually seems smart to me.

If anything, they’ve been super open with you. They want marriage and kids someday, but not just yet. They’re strongly implying they aren’t traditionalists. Being that honest is rather the opposite of a hidden agenda....
Thanks. You did understand me, and said some things I been thinking about too.
I agree that the biological clock will begin to felt more past the age of 30, and I also think it is smart to wait until so.



Yes, in 20s you will want more to just live life, all those things don't matter too much about partner being a good husband and such..
But that is just the thing... I feel for example a woman who is 25 will say everything is fine, long distance? ok. Still not educated? ok.
It's about the love and being together.. but then they get practical?, because even thought they are not 30+ yet, then they DO know that in the future they will want to settle and all. And so all the love and everything being OK, doesn't count as much anymore.
So it becomes like a hidden thing, not working out in the practical plan.

Ok, maybe I am just a little sore and insecure about some things. I am 31 and still haven't figured out exactly what I want to educated myself as. I think more about how to be a good husband than my dates think about I think.
I have dated since I was 15, and I know how things move from more relaxed and layed back to more serious. Also how I feel myself becomming more serious and thinking I don't have forever and would want to settle more sometime now in my 30s or start of 40s (But there is big gap between now and realizing that it feels like).

Maybe it is wrong of me to coin this on women. Us men can have this thing just as much.. it can just be like this unspoken thing, that you follow.
 

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Most women and men I know have some idealistic ideas about how their future will go. Sometimes they are right and they "follow" the plan... other times they discover that they make different choices for different reasons. I thought when I was little that I'd have a husband. I do now, though I didn't think I would when I was a teenager. I always thought I'd become a medical doctor, and I'm not - it turns out I don't like pharmacology very much. My best friend thought she'd have kids, but she's realized now that she doesn't want them. I don't think she knew that when she first started dating...

My point is, I think sometimes people's "hidden" agendas are hidden even to themselves. We think we want something, and then we learn something new. A woman in her 20s-30s is often trying to answer the question of if she wants kids - much less how she's going to go about having them if she wants them. Most women now do desire a love-based relationship prior to considering having kids. And they typically want to get education out of the way first. But at the same time - if a woman wants to leave the possibility open for kids - she does have to start thinking about a realistic timeline. You may be seeing some of the clash of the twin waves of the individual, present, real life and the other-oriented, future, potential life breaking up against one another. It's messy, and confusing, and hard enough to navigate alone, much less while in a new relationship.

Mirkwood said:
I am 31 and still haven't figured out exactly what I want to educated myself as. I think more about how to be a good husband than my dates think about I think.
I wonder if your dates may be concerned about you talking about marriage/kids while not having figured out the direction of your education because they realize that, should you decide to pursue education in the next decade or so, they might end up stuck at home with kids full-time, or both trying to work and raise the kids while you are in school. I think OA already hinted at this, but what I pick up a bit on is sort of a "reversed" timeline on your part, as opposed to I think what is generally expected. I think a lot of women in their 20s/30s are thinking about getting school/personal life in order first, then focusing on marriage/kids. If you're bringing up marriage/kids first, and aren't really decided in terms of school/personal life yet, that may be making your dates uncomfortable... feeling like you're overly invested in becoming tied down before you're clearly able to create a stable, supportive lifestyle with them.
 
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Most women and men I know have some idealistic ideas about how their future will go. Sometimes they are right and they "follow" the plan... other times they discover that they make different choices for different reasons. I thought when I was little that I'd have a husband. I do now, though I didn't think I would when I was a teenager. I always thought I'd become a medical doctor, and I'm not - it turns out I don't like pharmacology very much. My best friend thought she'd have kids, but she's realized now that she doesn't want them. I don't think she knew that when she first started dating...

My point is, I think sometimes people's "hidden" agendas are hidden even to themselves. We think we want something, and then we learn something new. A woman in her 20s-30s is often trying to answer the question of if she wants kids - much less how she's going to go about having them if she wants them. Most women now do desire a love-based relationship prior to considering having kids. And they typically want to get education out of the way first. But at the same time - if a woman wants to leave the possibility open for kids - she does have to start thinking about a realistic timeline. You may be seeing some of the clash of the twin waves of the individual, present, real life and the other-oriented, future, potential life breaking up against one another. It's messy, and confusing, and hard enough to navigate alone, much less while in a new relationship.



I wonder if your dates may be concerned about you talking about marriage/kids while not having figured out the direction of your education because they realize that, should you decide to pursue education in the next decade or so, they might end up stuck at home with kids full-time, or both trying to work and raise the kids while you are in school. I think OA already hinted at this, but what I pick up a bit on is sort of a "reversed" timeline on your part, as opposed to I think what is generally expected. I think a lot of women in their 20s/30s are thinking about getting school/personal life in order first, then focusing on marriage/kids. If you're bringing up marriage/kids first, and aren't really decided in terms of school/personal life yet, that may be making your dates uncomfortable... feeling like you're overly invested in becoming tied down before you're clearly able to create a stable, supportive lifestyle with them.
I think you are really on to something there :) For my self I want to finish any kind of education before I wanna even think about wheter I want kids or not. I broke up with my ex partly because I coundn't see a future for us. And now when I'm dating I still make decisions based on if I see a future or not. I was seeing this guy but he lived very far away and in the country. I live in a big city and I came to the conclusion that if we ended up together then one of us would have to move. I don't wanna move and he said he didn't wanna live in the city. I don't wanna live anywhere else, and so.. I told him I couldn't see a future and we should just stop it. I don't want to be dating someone if I can't see it turning into something with time. Yes I could have dated him but that would only make it harder breaking up when none of us wanted to move. And if one of us eventually agreed to move then it would be a compromise / sacrifice for one of us. And the blame/guilt would be there.

And I'm sorry @Mirkwood but when I look at a potentiel partner, I look at if he has a good job, that he is happy about and a steady income. Because if I'm gonna be in a relationship then I would like them to be kind of ready to have kids. Maybe not now but a few years from now, and like @angelfish says if you aren't really decided in terms of school/personal life yet, then that can be a reason for being put in the ''no'' categori because it kind of signals unstability and unsertenties.

I also had this guy who wrote me asking when I wanted kids and how many. He didn't even know my name. That for me, was to soon to be asking all of that. I mean what does it mean if we want the same ammount of kids if I'm not attracted to him? Or we have nothing in common? For me it is about getting to know each other, seeing if there is something there to build on and than we can talk about marrige. I mean most girls - I assume wants to get married and have kids at some point - so what are the odds that I would be the one girl who didn't want that and therefore he had to make sure before even asking me name? Sometimes I really don't get some peoples logic...
 
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Women often leave men if they feel the man wants the relationship way more than them. Women dont like the idea of having a desperate man. Its all due to people not marrying anymore, that women feel much more wanted than men today. About every woman I met felt like she had plenty of options. Most men I know suck at dating. Women getting so much attention is blown up by some guys making many moves. Usually horny ones.
 
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