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Discussion Starter #1
It's that they can feel very ingenuine. They tend to pander far too much to other people's needs, and when you try to understand them, they always seem to deflect. Maybe that's just an unhealthy ENFJ thing, but it's very frustrating to me. Sometimes I ACTUALLY want to know what their problems are. Plus, I know this ENFJ and he always fake laughs whenever I tell a joke or when I laugh at something in a show or when watching comedy. It's really stressful and feels almost condescending (I know it's not supposed to be), but it makes me feel uncomfortable. I feel so much better if someone laughs, or experiences an emotion because THEY feel it with their Fi, because it means it touched their heart in some way, and they truly related to it.
 

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Hmmm... very fair points. Guilty to a number of them myself.

Well, when it comes to the problem aspect, often times I withdraw from telling someone my problems is cause I believe that from the conversation that would follow after, you are perhaps unlikely to provide information that can help solve my problem. Sometimes the problem is mundane and common, and I already know what you're (and a lot of other people) are going to say.

Me: She made me feel really sad when I told her I liked her and she said she liked someone else instead.
Guy: It's okay bro, there's plenty of fish out in the sea.
A response like that, I'm feeling a little emotional and in desperate need of solid life changing advice. I'm expecting too much and sometimes, some people just don't know what to say. So I just keep my mouth shut.

OR

The problem is too messed up and I think by opening my mouth, I could say something that's just way out of you're normally used to and probably didn't need to hear any of that.

Me: My uncle used to beat me and I was bullied at school and for some odd reason, I've been wanting to watch someone else do my wife. These thoughts been bothering me lately so I've been doing some lines to get out of that headspace.
Guy: What the flying fuckery!?
OR

Some people, not saying you, like to give shitty advice.

Me: Yeah, I've been struggling a bit at college cause of the restraints.
Guy: Dude, you need to tell your dad, straight up to man the fuck up and give you more money!
Seriously, I've experienced all three of these. Especially the third one. Oh God...

As for the last bit about humor and laughing at people's jokes, as you can tell from my post, ENFJs can sometimes have a very dark or at least "distinct" sense of humor. I understand very well and can appreciate conventional humor and Paul Feig films like "Spy" or whatever Marvel pumps out lately - but that's not my thing.

I like trashy and vulgar humor or sometimes dark ones which makes me more inclined to stuff like American Pie, and George Carlin skits of why certain people should commit suicide. That being said, I don't wanna be a sourpuss in the cinema during Frozen or Zootopia just because it's not normally I laugh at so I try to be open minded.

Same thing like the joke. I just try to see the funny side and bring out or be as expressive of my laughter as I can be. That admittedly can seem exaggerated but it's not done out of malice or anything.
 

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... oh, @KC

I love the examples, but to think everyone will dish out platitudes?!? The middle one is genius, you could expand on that and harness it's comedic glory.

The real issue I have with unhealthy Fe types is they often don't respect my boundaries, my own thoughts and values and they pontificate, pontificate and pontificate. [edit: Wait, I just thought that unhealthy Fi types do this too, but it comes from a different place]. They expect that I assume life strategies that are not only impractical but ones that are emotionally taxing and in violation of my own character. Anyway, social cohesion is not my forte.

I have friends and relatives who are very image conscious and perhaps I'm used to other people's inauthenticity. I taught piano and worked retail most of my life: Sometimes diplomacy is called for and I'm fine with being political in a professional relationship. Maybe I've gotten desensitized, I'm usually fine so long as the other person doesn't demand I change who I am and who I want to be.

... anyway, it doesn't mean I can't be won over. Show me why you feel the way you do and give me the personal space to decide on my own.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well, when it comes to the problem aspect, often times I withdraw from telling someone my problems is cause I believe that from the conversation that would follow after, you are perhaps unlikely to provide information that can help solve my problem. Sometimes the problem is mundane and common, and I already know what you're (and a lot of other people) are going to say.
I guess I should be able to relate to that one cause I do the same thing as well xD I've never enjoyed getting advice I don't need. Perhaps for a different reason, but nevertheless, it's the same feeling.



A response like that, I'm feeling a little emotional and in desperate need of solid life changing advice. I'm expecting too much and sometimes, some people just don't know what to say. So I just keep my mouth shut.
That's a really tough part of life that I really wish I could get as well :( I have been severely lacking in the "deep" friends area.

OR

The problem is too messed up and I think by opening my mouth, I could say something that's just way out of you're normally used to and probably didn't need to hear any of that.
You know what's funny about that? I feel like people get weird about that stuff because they're embarrassed about their own shit. (and I'm sure you've considered options like that as well) I've always found it so silly how people get so upset over things that are pretty much "normal" but not socially accepted.



OR

Some people, not saying you, like to give shitty advice.

Seriously, I've experienced all three of these. Especially the third one. Oh God...
This is not sarcastic, you're the first person I've seen verbally express how irritating shitty advice is. Besides myself lol. Then again, I've had limited experiences with diverse personalities because of my life situation.

As for the last bit about humor and laughing at people's jokes, as you can tell from my post, ENFJs can sometimes have a very dark or at least "distinct" sense of humor. I understand very well and can appreciate conventional humor and Paul Feig films like "Spy" or whatever Marvel pumps out lately - but that's not my thing.

I like trashy and vulgar humor or sometimes dark ones which makes me more inclined to stuff like American Pie, and George Carlin skits of why certain people should commit suicide. That being said, I don't wanna be a sourpuss in the cinema during Frozen or Zootopia just because it's not normally I laugh at so I try to be open minded.

Same thing like the joke. I just try to see the funny side and bring out or be as expressive of my laughter as I can be. That admittedly can seem exaggerated but it's not done out of malice or anything.
You know, I do have to admit, he frequently comments that his favorite humor isn't as funny to everyone else. While his isn't as dark, maybe having misaligned humor is normal for that type. He used to be more like how you described. He would try to at least find the humor in everything, even if he didn't automatically think it was funny. Recently it just seems forced and it can be frustrating.

More often than not I feel really bad that it bothers me because I'm pretty sure he was depressed and is actually just getting out of depression and that's why it's like that. Sometimes it's hard to vent though because I have no one to talk to. Thanks for reading my post and understanding where I was coming from.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
@Doc Dangerstein

You hit the nail on the head when it comes to unhealthy Fe types. Sometimes it's hard to talk about it because Fe types are all about other people, so it seems to be criticizing their core personality, but the key word is definitely "unhealthy". I notice that sort of "life plan" that completely disregards who I am attitude from my dad though. He's an ESFJ. It seems to come from getting stuck in their head from whatever is making their life difficult, but still trying to use their Fe. So it comes out distorted.

I guess that's one really big ENFP thing I have that often comes in conflict with the people in my life, is my insatiable desire to be my own person. Unfortunately, being your own person, and avoiding confrontation do not go well together. It is the bane of an ENFPs existence.
 

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The real issue I have with unhealthy Fe types is they often don't respect my boundaries, my own thoughts and values and they pontificate, pontificate and pontificate. [edit: Wait, I just thought that unhealthy Fi types do this too, but it comes from a different place]. They expect that I assume life strategies that are not only impractical but ones that are emotionally taxing and in violation of my own character. Anyway, social cohesion is not my forte.
Well, I sorta get this part cause for Fe types (especially ESFJs), it's easy to go through life with some sorta plan or as you said, strategy in mind. We're usually types that wants everything to be perfect and we make plans and contingencies for that to happen as opposed to Perceivers that just "wing it".

Unfortunately, it's also easy for us (when we're busy being assholes) to assume that everyone should be like that as well. What happens if your house was on fire? What happens if your bedroom was on fire? What happens if your mum was on fire? We're pretty fucking damn paranoid and it sucks sometimes.... can't imagine how much worse it is for our Si cousins (ESFJs) to go through this.

I have friends and relatives who are very image conscious and perhaps I'm used to other people's inauthenticity. I taught piano and worked retail most of my life: Sometimes diplomacy is called for and I'm fine with being political in a professional relationship. Maybe I've gotten desensitized, I'm usually fine so long as the other person doesn't demand I change who I am and who I want to be.

... anyway, it doesn't mean I can't be won over. Show me why you feel the way you do and give me the personal space to decide on my own.
This is why, for the most part, I am attracted to the ENFP and INFP types cause you're the contrarians to my Fe-Ni bullshit. Workplace diplomacy is one thing but when I'm home, I just want to be myself. Watch TV, porn, play Dota and scream at my computer cause some Filipino kid somewhere plays like horseshit.

I want people to be themselves as well, albeit, more actualized versions of themselves. How we (ENFJs) I believe differ from ESFJs are that we're more flexible in this regard. ESFJs are kinda like Asian parents. They want you to be happy but in order to do so - you need to be a successful doctor, lawyer, architect whereas for me, if being a stripper makes you happy - go out there and be Magic Mike I would say.

 
Sorry for pontificating btw...


I guess I should be able to relate to that one cause I do the same thing as well xD I've never enjoyed getting advice I don't need. Perhaps for a different reason, but nevertheless, it's the same feeling.
I don't blame people for giving advice like this. People often feel the need to say something but don't know what to so they just spout cliches. I get the intention, but the content is just lacking.

You know what's funny about that? I feel like people get weird about that stuff because they're embarrassed about their own shit. (and I'm sure you've considered options like that as well) I've always found it so silly how people get so upset over things that are pretty much "normal" but not socially accepted.
Sadly, we live in a world full of bullies and even the most mundane thing can be used again you.

For example, I have a brother, likes older women. Common thing right? Well, even for a stereotypical milf-lover, he gets so much flak from the buddies like it's something unheard of. You would not believe the amount of times friends have pointed out grandmothers to my brothers to try and prod an erection from him.

U LIEK FURROW LINES????

This is why people have secrets.

You know, I do have to admit, he frequently comments that his favorite humor isn't as funny to everyone else. While his isn't as dark, maybe having misaligned humor is normal for that type. He used to be more like how you described. He would try to at least find the humor in everything, even if he didn't automatically think it was funny. Recently it just seems forced and it can be frustrating.

More often than not I feel really bad that it bothers me because I'm pretty sure he was depressed and is actually just getting out of depression and that's why it's like that. Sometimes it's hard to vent though because I have no one to talk to. Thanks for reading my post and understanding where I was coming from.
Well, I don't know your friend personally so I'm not able to tell whether he's depressed or not so I'm not passing judgment on that front.

But for ENFJs, even ESFJs for the matter, we're types that usually "fit in" pretty well but sometimes there are things that we don't "fit in" with like as you said, misaligned humor.

Shit like this -

Then again, I like to hang out with my friends and just cause they're watching Kung Fu Panda, I don't really wanna be left out. Plights of extroversion I suppose.
 

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What is particularly vexing for me is that when an ENFJ lies (or is "ingenuine" as you put it) can't they tell when other intuitive types see right through the bs? And, if so, why continue the charades? It seems like insanity to me.


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It's that they can feel very ingenuine. They tend to pander far too much to other people's needs, and when you try to understand them, they always seem to deflect. Maybe that's just an unhealthy ENFJ thing, but it's very frustrating to me. Sometimes I ACTUALLY want to know what their problems are. Plus, I know this ENFJ and he always fake laughs whenever I tell a joke or when I laugh at something in a show or when watching comedy. It's really stressful and feels almost condescending (I know it's not supposed to be), but it makes me feel uncomfortable. I feel so much better if someone laughs, or experiences an emotion because THEY feel it with their Fi, because it means it touched their heart in some way, and they truly related to it.
Although I am initially attracted to their charisma, the deflection bugs me too. Seems superficial, and obligatory. Makes me question what their true feelings are as they rarely rise to the surface only in sarcasm that's pretty brutal. I have a few ENFJs in my life like that. I relate to INFJs better in that I feel our connection seems a bit deeper and more sincere.

But, ENFJs do have qualities I admire, like their ability to really make an effort to organize everything for everyone. Just on a more personal level... there seems to be a disconnect. Feels like a great divide like I am at times talking to the Berlin wall. Depends on the ENFJ?
 

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Unfortunately, being your own person, and avoiding confrontation do not go well together. It is the bane of an ENFPs existence.
Amen to that. Causing problems is the bane of an ENFP's existence.

I second staying away from underdeveloped Fe. Unfortunately those types are littered all across society. Underdeveloped Fi is pretty bad too. To be honest underdeveloped people in general suck.
 

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It's that they can feel very ingenuine. They tend to pander far too much to other people's needs, and when you try to understand them, they always seem to deflect. Maybe that's just an unhealthy ENFJ thing, but it's very frustrating to me.
Why do you think that this makes ENFJs unhealty?

Sometimes I ACTUALLY want to know what their problems are. Plus, I know this ENFJ and he always fake laughs whenever I tell a joke or when I laugh at something in a show or when watching comedy. It's really stressful and feels almost condescending (I know it's not supposed to be), but it makes me feel uncomfortable. I feel so much better if someone laughs, or experiences an emotion because THEY feel it with their Fi, because it means it touched their heart in some way, and they truly related to it.
I have never ever even think that this could be a problem for ENFJs. I laugh too much just like my friends. I love irony, sarcasm and situational comedy and make people laugh more than any of my friends does. ( I believe that this is why I have also tested as ENFP and ENTP.) Sometimes I laught just because I don't get the joke and that's quite funny too - so of course I have to say it aloud so that my friends can laugh at me too. Me and my XNFPs have same kind of sense of humor.

But being honest I have never agreed with this "If you have fi it comes from your heart". I was bullied for more than 9 years, I was described as "HSP" already when I was I kid, I was highly talented with music, writing, arts, theather, animals and I have always had strong opinions and morals. And then people keep saying that Fi makes you an authentic and deep person. Those things has nothing to do with your congnitive functions - I see this argument as shallow simplification which people use to boost their ego. I don't meant to be rude but I think that there is no function which guarantee any specifics skills for you for free. Te doesn't make you smart, Fe doesn't make you good, Ne doesn't make you a understanding person... Congnitive functions tells how we work not who we are.

Sorry, I just feel like ranting today ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Why do you think that this makes ENFJs unhealty?



I have never ever even think that this could be a problem for ENFJs. I laugh too much just like my friends. I love irony, sarcasm and situational comedy and make people laugh more than any of my friends does. ( I believe that this is why I have also tested as ENFP and ENTP.) Sometimes I laught just because I don't get the joke and that's quite funny too - so of course I have to say it aloud so that my friends can laugh at me too. Me and my XNFPs have same kind of sense of humor.

But being honest I have never agreed with this "If you have fi it comes from your heart". I was bullied for more than 9 years, I was described as "HSP" already when I was I kid, I was highly talented with music, writing, arts, theather, animals and I have always had strong opinions and morals. And then people keep saying that Fi makes you an authentic and deep person. Those things has nothing to do with your congnitive functions - I see this argument as shallow simplification which people use to boost their ego. I don't meant to be rude but I think that there is no function which guarantee any specifics skills for you for free. Te doesn't make you smart, Fe doesn't make you good, Ne doesn't make you a understanding person... Congnitive functions tells how we work not who we are.

Sorry, I just feel like ranting today ;)
I think to sum up what you asked and what I'm saying is, I have a problem with someone who is concerned about how other people feel, but is detached from the people themselves. As in, having an underdeveloped Fe. Because yeah, an ENFJ how you described would be perfectly enjoyable. Although, you did bring up a good point. It isn't smart to use a blanket statement that implies Fe = Not emotionally independent. Because that concern for other people does come from their own emotions.
 

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I am not sure about the "ingenuine" part. Like, if you value something - even if it's different from what others value, isn't it "coming from your heart"? I am trying my best to understand Fe here. I have a had a hard time interacting with my ESFJ mother, who feels anxious and impinges on my boundaries when she feels I am not "being a part of family." She has done some things that have really hurt me. But finally taking the time to say "that's enough" and reflect on my wounds regardless of what other people want from me - I feel more healed, and am able to see how much this hurts her too, because she really, genuinely cares about these things.
 

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Hmmm... very fair points. Guilty to a number of them myself.

Well, when it comes to the problem aspect, often times I withdraw from telling someone my problems is cause I believe that from the conversation that would follow after, you are perhaps unlikely to provide information that can help solve my problem. Sometimes the problem is mundane and common, and I already know what you're (and a lot of other people) are going to say.



A response like that, I'm feeling a little emotional and in desperate need of solid life changing advice. I'm expecting too much and sometimes, some people just don't know what to say. So I just keep my mouth shut.

OR

The problem is too messed up and I think by opening my mouth, I could say something that's just way out of you're normally used to and probably didn't need to hear any of that.



OR

Some people, not saying you, like to give shitty advice.



Seriously, I've experienced all three of these. Especially the third one. Oh God...

[...]
I would absolutely love for you to say those things, especially the middle one. Not only do I always feel privileged to be trusted with such thoughts someone is burdened with, it also is always a positive challenge for me to NOT give those standard meaningless responses of which I know you probably already heard them before all too often. I understand that this hypothetically made you hide those thoughts and feels in the first place.

I believe ENFP's are also very well able to pull of just the exact same thing (provide more non-standard deeper responses) :)

-------

As for the OP, this would make me feel very uncomfortable as well and I could probably feel that happening almost instantly. I'm not sure about ENFJ's particularly in this case, barely know any, if at all?
 
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Knowing two ENFJs I do agree that they can seem ingenuine, almost like a photoshopped photo. They are very nice and always love to help you out with your problems, but sometimes I want to know about their problems too, and I want to know their true self
 
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