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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Saw the article linked below earlier today. It's incredibly disturbing. What will be left of our society if these trends continue? What can the Government do to help encourage people to keep getting married?

There's never been a better time to be single - CNN

I think the big key is that we need a significant revision of the tax code. Right now being single and not having kids is far better financially speaking than being married with kids. Taxes on single individuals need to be significantly raised and taxes on married couple with kids significantly lowered. Add to that things like guaranteed maternity leave, government funded preschools and daycare and I think we would see a big step in the right direction. However all any of that does is encourage people who already WANT to get married and have kids; the real issue is that people no longer want these things. The bigger question is how we change their perceptions. I'm not sure I really have an answer. The issues is due to the pervasive erosion of modern morals and not something you can fix easily. It can take decades to change perceptions like this. Perhaps better education on the negative effects to society of staying single would help.
 

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I agree with you up to the point where you propose your tax changes and government funded XYZ.

As you've stated yourself, it would only encourage already traditional people to simply be traditional. Plus, I'd like the government involved in my life as little as possible.

People don't care about society (for better or worse). Sure, telling them the importance of marriage and waiting till marriage for sex, are good, but they don't provide enough answers on an individual level. You can't tell a young person to get married because it's the "right" thing to do. You have to explain WHY marriage is superior and how it benefits them personally.

Marriage is the best model for children to be raised under and is the #1 predictor of happiness for women in general. Very little moms would say that their quality of life decreased when they had kids. If they said their lives actually got worse, then what kind of mother is that?

Anyways, the problem stems further than this. I agree that the morality of modern peoples is not the same as it once was and it's because we are less religious than we once were.

You either worship god, people, or the state and we've seen a consistence move away from god to worshiping people and the state. We need LESS government involvement, LESS bad role models (celebrities) and MORE people that can actually be looked up to (Mothers & Fathers).

Previous generations (obviously) have done a horrible job of instilling their kids with the proper values. If we want to bring our civilization out of the hole it's digging itself into, we need a generation of strong-willed parents to raise a smarter, tougher, and moral generation.

But we don't have to wait for the next generation of kids to save us, we start now. We started years ago. People are waking up to the stupidity, hopefully in the right ways.
 

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I agree with you up to the point where you propose your tax changes and government funded XYZ.

As you've stated yourself, it would only encourage already traditional people to simply be traditional. Plus, I'd like the government involved in my life as little as possible.

People don't care about society (for better or worse). Sure, telling them the importance of marriage and waiting till marriage for sex, are good, but they don't provide enough answers on an individual level. You can't tell a young person to get married because it's the "right" thing to do. You have to explain WHY marriage is superior and how it benefits them personally.

Marriage is the best model for children to be raised under and is the #1 predictor of happiness for women in general. Very little moms would say that their quality of life decreased when they had kids. If they said their lives actually got worse, then what kind of mother is that?

Anyways, the problem stems further than this. I agree that the morality of modern peoples is not the same as it once was and it's because we are less religious than we once were.

You either worship god, people, or the state and we've seen a consistence move away from god to worshiping people and the state. We need LESS government involvement, LESS bad role models (celebrities) and MORE people that can actually be looked up to (Mothers & Fathers).

Previous generations (obviously) have done a horrible job of instilling their kids with the proper values. If we want to bring our civilization out of the hole it's digging itself into, we need a generation of strong-willed parents to raise a smarter, tougher, and moral generation.

But we don't have to wait for the next generation of kids to save us, we start now. We started years ago. People are waking up to the stupidity, hopefully in the right ways.
Bolded.. government does not interfere with your life in this instance. it is called an incentive.. you can take or it leave it. No one will force it upon you if you don't wish to take it lmao.


Marriage is important but it is not the only source of happiness for women and men. We have reached a stage where we can choose.

Money is a big issue when it comes to marriage.. so having enough money is very very critical.
 

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Saw the article linked below earlier today. It's incredibly disturbing. What will be left of our society if these trends continue? What can the Government do to help encourage people to keep getting married?

There's never been a better time to be single - CNN

I think the big key is that we need a significant revision of the tax code. Right now being single and not having kids is far better financially speaking than being married with kids. Taxes on single individuals need to be significantly raised and taxes on married couple with kids significantly lowered. Add to that things like guaranteed maternity leave, government funded preschools and daycare and I think we would see a big step in the right direction. However all any of that does is encourage people who already WANT to get married and have kids; the real issue is that people no longer want these things. The bigger question is how we change their perceptions. I'm not sure I really have an answer. The issues is due to the pervasive erosion of modern morals and not something you can fix easily. It can take decades to change perceptions like this. Perhaps better education on the negative effects to society of staying single would help.
Marriage, aside from a personal commitment to another person, is also a legal contract entered into with the government. With the divorce rate approaching 50%, what would incentivise someone to take this sort of risk, from a practical perspective? One might as well go throw the deed to their house or half their savings on a blackjack table - with the caveat of there's no chance of winning, only a 50% chance of losing. You might say prenup, but those are often not as tight as one would hope.

As someone who is business minded, I am only interested in good deals. So how is marriage a good deal?
 

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I agree with you up to the point where you propose your tax changes and government funded XYZ.

As you've stated yourself, it would only encourage already traditional people to simply be traditional. Plus, I'd like the government involved in my life as little as possible.

People don't care about society (for better or worse). Sure, telling them the importance of marriage and waiting till marriage for sex, are good, but they don't provide enough answers on an individual level. You can't tell a young person to get married because it's the "right" thing to do. You have to explain WHY marriage is superior and how it benefits them personally.

Marriage is the best model for children to be raised under and is the #1 predictor of happiness for women in general. Very little moms would say that their quality of life decreased when they had kids. If they said their lives actually got worse, then what kind of mother is that?

Anyways, the problem stems further than this. I agree that the morality of modern peoples is not the same as it once was and it's because we are less religious than we once were.

You either worship god, people, or the state and we've seen a consistence move away from god to worshiping people and the state. We need LESS government involvement, LESS bad role models (celebrities) and MORE people that can actually be looked up to (Mothers & Fathers).

Previous generations (obviously) have done a horrible job of instilling their kids with the proper values. If we want to bring our civilization out of the hole it's digging itself into, we need a generation of strong-willed parents to raise a smarter, tougher, and moral generation.

But we don't have to wait for the next generation of kids to save us, we start now. We started years ago. People are waking up to the stupidity, hopefully in the right ways.
We don't actually know what's the best model because we can only compare the recent past and present. But for millennia, families were not nuclear. Our psychosocial evolution was not based on nuclear family units.

"What kind of mother is that" is shame tactics. Not everyone wants to have children or even innately suitable for it, socially pressuring people into having children (or doing anything) is a recipe for unhappiness. Previous generations wanted their children to have choice, to have what they couldn't. Take a look here, for example 100 Women 2016: Parents who regret having children - BBC News
 

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We don't actually know what's the best model because we can only compare the recent past and present. But for millennia, families were not nuclear. Our psychosocial evolution was not based on nuclear family units.

"What kind of mother is that" is shame tactics. Not everyone wants to have children or even innately suitable for it, socially pressuring people into having children (or doing anything) is a recipe for unhappiness. Previous generations wanted their children to have choice, to have what they couldn't. Take a look here, for example 100 Women 2016: Parents who regret having children - BBC News
They should add my dad to that list.
 

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The lower rates of marriage and fertility in many modern countries is a lot more complicated than taxes, though. As someone who really wouldn't mind getting married ((I've dated but haven't found anyone yet who I'd want to marry)), I have to say that a lot of the reasons people in my age group aren't getting married are largely societal problems that perhaps government can't really do anything about whether it wants to or not. I will use my male friends and my female friends as an example...

-Female friends: A crazy high number of them have a very poor impression of men and completely distrust men. Some of them have had bad boyfriends or fathers who have ruined the male image of men to them so they decided to either stop dating or only date other women. One friend who dated men more than anyone else I know told me she gave up dating because she was tired of how men aren't interested in love, so she's just going to move to a new place that will allow her to have a dog since dogs are more reliable for that. Another has a distaste for men because she has seen so many more men cheat on their partners than she has women cheat on their partners. Other female friends have anti-male feminism type perspectives. As much as I'd like to improve the male image to my female friends, it's hard to battle their own personal experiences.

-Male friends: They most definitely like women, but they also idealize women way, way, way too much and are very focused on appearances. Most have never dated before since they are mainly gamers and otaku... so they don't really meet many women in general and spend a bit too much money on their hobbies for my taste ((I will never date a gamer or otaku... these habits are so lol)). I think overall they are more friendly than my female friends ((female friends get angry more often and make more dramaz out of weird stuff than my male friends)) and aren't the type who would ever cheat on a girlfriend or abuse a woman like what my female friends complain about, but my male friends are a bit... shallow, and can be a little more boring to be around. I think a lot of them have more fragile egos than what they'd like to let on and dealing with the hostile social environment that my female friends put up would just be too much for them to handle, in all honesty. A few say that they'd like a girlfriend but they don't do anything more than say that in passing.

I think the biggest problem in the end is that there isn't much communication between the sexes these days or something. Other than a pair of lesbians, all my friends and social acquaintances are single. The females are too negative about males while the males are too escapist and I don't think either group wants to change much. Something would have to motivate that change to happen and I don't know what that would be. Saying it's "for the good of society" won't work since both male and female Millennials show anger at the current state of government/society and have a great distaste for it so they aren't going to care about society as a whole. There are a lot of factors creating this problem and it's going to be difficult to address them all...

It'll take more than tax incentives and education, I guarantee that. No matter what, marriage is about two individuals who have to see eye-to-eye and it's hard to find people you can have that sort of relationship with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Raising taxes to encourage marriage and child-rearing?


Fuck that nonsense.
People who get married and have kids provide a huge benefit to society, it's only right that they be fairly compensated for it. Or if you want to think about it the more traditional way, single people (and married without kids) on average are leeching off of society and this externality needs to be accounted for with additional taxes just like we have taxes on all sorts of other things that harm society like cigarettes and pollution.

The lower rates of marriage and fertility in many modern countries is a lot more complicated than taxes, though. As someone who really wouldn't mind getting married ((I've dated but haven't found anyone yet who I'd want to marry)), I have to say that a lot of the reasons people in my age group aren't getting married are largely societal problems that perhaps government can't really do anything about whether it wants to or not. I will use my male friends and my female friends as an example...

-Female friends: A crazy high number of them have a very poor impression of men and completely distrust men. Some of them have had bad boyfriends or fathers who have ruined the male image of men to them so they decided to either stop dating or only date other women. One friend who dated men more than anyone else I know told me she gave up dating because she was tired of how men aren't interested in love, so she's just going to move to a new place that will allow her to have a dog since dogs are more reliable for that. Another has a distaste for men because she has seen so many more men cheat on their partners than she has women cheat on their partners. Other female friends have anti-male feminism type perspectives. As much as I'd like to improve the male image to my female friends, it's hard to battle their own personal experiences.

-Male friends: They most definitely like women, but they also idealize women way, way, way too much and are very focused on appearances. Most have never dated before since they are mainly gamers and otaku... so they don't really meet many women in general and spend a bit too much money on their hobbies for my taste ((I will never date a gamer or otaku... these habits are so lol)). I think overall they are more friendly than my female friends ((female friends get angry more often and make more dramaz out of weird stuff than my male friends)) and aren't the type who would ever cheat on a girlfriend or abuse a woman like what my female friends complain about, but my male friends are a bit... shallow, and can be a little more boring to be around. I think a lot of them have more fragile egos than what they'd like to let on and dealing with the hostile social environment that my female friends put up would just be too much for them to handle, in all honesty. A few say that they'd like a girlfriend but they don't do anything more than say that in passing.

I think the biggest problem in the end is that there isn't much communication between the sexes these days or something. Other than a pair of lesbians, all my friends and social acquaintances are single. The females are too negative about males while the males are too escapist and I don't think either group wants to change much. Something would have to motivate that change to happen and I don't know what that would be. Saying it's "for the good of society" won't work since both male and female Millennials show anger at the current state of government/society and have a great distaste for it so they aren't going to care about society as a whole. There are a lot of factors creating this problem and it's going to be difficult to address them all...

It'll take more than tax incentives and education, I guarantee that. No matter what, marriage is about two individuals who have to see eye-to-eye and it's hard to find people you can have that sort of relationship with.
Yeah, the male/female dynamic now is very bad. Lots of distrust. But the distrust makes sense because being loyal or chaste is no longer something which is praised. Why NOT behave poorly when you can so easily get away with it?
 

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Marriage just seems like an outdated tradition given how far we've come in western society. Women can work and provide for themselves without having to rely on a man. There's a real sense of pride in financial independence women embraced in the last couple of decades and for good reason. Marriage, for a good part of history, was about money and security. Women had little to no means or freedom to provide for themselves. They had to find or be matched with a man if they wanted to survive. But this isn't the case anymore. Women can own property, go to school, have a career, own a business, invest, etc. Why get hitched if you can make a good living by yourself?

Ah right, sex and romance. Let me ask this question: what does marriage add to a relationship that already has those thing besides the chance of a messy divorce?
 

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Bolded.. government does not interfere with your life in this instance. it is called an incentive.. you can take or it leave it. No one will force it upon you if you don't wish to take it lmao.


Marriage is important but it is not the only source of happiness for women and men. We have reached a stage where we can choose.

Money is a big issue when it comes to marriage.. so having enough money is very very critical.
As much as I agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's the government's job to tell us what we should/shouldn't do. That should be the people's job. I'd much rather have a cultural revolution than a government funded campaign to change people's mind due to money incentives.
 

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We don't actually know what's the best model because we can only compare the recent past and present. But for millennia, families were not nuclear. Our psychosocial evolution was not based on nuclear family units.

"What kind of mother is that" is shame tactics. Not everyone wants to have children or even innately suitable for it, socially pressuring people into having children (or doing anything) is a recipe for unhappiness. Previous generations wanted their children to have choice, to have what they couldn't. Take a look here, for example 100 Women 2016: Parents who regret having children - BBC News
Women who regret having children aren't good mothers.

Yeah, you're totally right, we should go back to the times when men just raped women whenever they wanted and women just stayed and gathered berries. I mean it's what we we were meant to do due to evolution.

I'm not pressuring people to have children. But what we are doing in society now is just the opposite. We are convincing people NOT to have kids.
 

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People who get married and have kids provide a huge benefit to society, it's only right that they be fairly compensated for it. Or if you want to think about it the more traditional way, single people (and married without kids) on average are leeching off of society and this externality needs to be accounted for with additional taxes just like we have taxes on all sorts of other things that harm society like cigarettes and pollution.
You can provide an incentive for some without punishing others. If the ultimate objective in your mind is marrying off society, I only see this backfiring anyway. If someone is leery of marriage and children due to financial concerns, adding difficulty to their financial situation isn't going to help anything if they'd prefer to have their ducks in a row first. Your solutions surrounding daycare, maternity leave, etc - these rewards require children to begin with. Children who come at a significant expense aside from these things, not just in dollars but in time and energy. Lessening a bit of that burden isn't going to be more appealing than the option of sidestepping it altogether for some.

For a lot of people I think the greatest incentive for getting married would be simply finding the right person - which is no guarantee. Imo, the more outside influences that meddle in this process, the more likely the person is to be potentially led down paths they may not have otherwise chosen, increasing their bad experiences, putting a sour taste in their mouth and maybe making them give up on the idea of "finding love" (in a committed monogamous sense) completely. I fail to see what's "moral" about chaining yourself to an institution that's become associated with love in recent years when and if it's absent.
 

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Women who regret having children aren't good mothers.

Yeah, you're totally right, we should go back to the times when men just raped women whenever they wanted and women just stayed and gathered berries. I mean it's what we we were meant to do due to evolution.

I'm not pressuring people to have children. But what we are doing in society now is just the opposite. We are convincing people NOT to have kids.
How can you know if they are? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, maybe they give their all when they would rather not to.
Most people want to have kids because it is a biological imperative and because of its existential worth. If there is one thing that's keeping people from having children is the economy and the financial burden of it. Very few people end up without children, it's just those who do are having less than in the past, because it is financially not feasible to have more. I think the economic structure of society will fall apart because of that, it's a vicious cycle because we reached the point we are now coming from the past where it was far cheaper and easier to have children, and now it's not sustainable anymore. People of both genders have to study for many years and build careers to be able to create a family and have to keep working for them. Most people can't support more than 1-2 children.
And also, you are pressuring if you don't accept that people should have a choice.

What you're saying about rape and such is a strawman. Extended families and other larger family structures have been the backbone of humanity for millenia up until less than 100 years ago, with a few countries like England as exceptions. There's no good reason that tight nuclear families should be the no 1 thing to aspire to, aside from romanticizing it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Marriage just seems like an outdated tradition given how far we've come in western society. Women can work and provide for themselves without having to rely on a man. There's a real sense of pride in financial independence women embraced in the last couple of decades and for good reason.

Marriage, for a good part of history, was about money and security. Women had little to no means or freedom to provide for themselves. They had to find or be matched with a man if they wanted to survive. But this isn't the case anymore. Women can own property, go to school, have a career, own a business, invest, etc. Why get hitched if you can make a good living by yourself?
A woman cannot simultaneously work a full time job and effectively raise 2-3 kids. There are absolute mountains of evidence showing that kids raised by single mothers are much worse off. If the woman were independently wealthy than maybe, but there aren't enough hours in a day to both work and raise children. That's the point of marriage; to share the load between two people. It's not about money, it's about what is best for your children.

Ah right, sex and romance. Let me ask this question: what does marriage add to a relationship that already has those thing besides the chance of a messy divorce?
It proves you're actually committed to the relationship in the long term and not just until things get a little bumpy. Sure, today people forget that and just get divorced at the drop of a hat, but that's not a reason to discourage marriage, it's a reason to discourage divorce.

As much as I agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's the government's job to tell us what we should/shouldn't do. That should be the people's job. I'd much rather have a cultural revolution than a government funded campaign to change people's mind due to money incentives.
1. That's literally all the Government does. What do you think laws are for if not to tell you what you can and cannot do?

2. It's not, "The Government" telling you what to do in a Democracy, it's the people voting on what is and isn't beneficial to society. You have as much of a vote as anyone else.

You can provide an incentive for some without punishing others.
Not really. If you're going to cut taxes on someone you have to raise them on someone else to make up the difference.

If the ultimate objective in your mind is marrying off society, I only see this backfiring anyway. If someone is leery of marriage and children due to financial concerns, adding difficulty to their financial situation isn't going to help anything if they'd prefer to have their ducks in a row first. Your solutions surrounding daycare, maternity leave, etc - these rewards require children to begin with. Children who come at a significant expense aside from these things, not just in dollars but in time and energy. Lessening a bit of that burden isn't going to be more appealing than the option of sidestepping it altogether for some.
Yes, if you see children as a huge, terrible burden then you likely will never have them no matter what the Government says and that's a GOOD thing. But you should still have to pay for them because you're choosing not to have kids means another couple now has to have 4 kids to make up for it and you should be forced to pay for those kids whether you have them or not. The thing is for people these days the idea that they owe something to society is entirely alien. All people in the modern world are capable of thinking about our themselves. When you tell them that they have a DUTY to the future of humanity to raise children they are shocked. They always thought that they were all that mattered and that the whole world should work to make them happy, not that they should ever have to work to make others happy. It's pathetic.

For a lot of people I think the greatest incentive for getting married would be simply finding the right person - which is no guarantee. Imo, the more outside influences that meddle in this process, the more likely the person is to be potentially led down paths they may not have otherwise chosen, increasing their bad experiences, putting a sour taste in their mouth and maybe making them give up on the idea of "finding love" (in a committed monogamous sense) completely. I fail to see what's "moral" about chaining yourself to an institution that's become associated with love in recent years when and if it's absent.[/QUOTE]
Part of the problem is that your idea of love and the idea of love that is needed to keep a marriage going are totally different. In a marriage you need to find someone who is like a best friend who you could get along with and work with no matter what. However in our current Tinder dating society what people look for is just excitement and sex and obviously these are not things a stable relationship can be built on.
 

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Mr. Anderson said:
Yes, if you see children as a huge, terrible burden then you likely will never have them no matter what the Government says and that's a GOOD thing. But you should still have to pay for them because you're choosing not to have kids means another couple now has to have 4 kids to make up for it and you should be forced to pay for those kids whether you have them or not. The thing is for people these days the idea that they owe something to society is entirely alien. All people in the modern world are capable of thinking about our themselves. When you tell them that they have a DUTY to the future of humanity to raise children they are shocked. They always thought that they were all that mattered and that the whole world should work to make them happy, not that they should ever have to work to make others happy. It's pathetic.
You know there are other ways to give back to society without devoting your life to raising kids right? I guess childless teachers, firefighters, scientists are the selfish scumbags for not doing their DUTY.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
You know there are other ways to give back to society without devoting your life to raising kids right? I guess childless teachers, firefighters, scientists are the selfish scumbags for not doing their DUTY.
I see you have listed 3 jobs here. What makes you think these 3 are so important and not other ones? The world needs teachers, firefighters and scientists for sure, but it also needs banker, lawyers and used car salesmen. There's nothing inherently more moral about being a teacher than being a banker. I can assure you that there are a lot of very shitty teachers out there.
 

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Of course there are other important jobs-- just too many to list that's all.

And like there are terrible teachers, there are terrible parents married or not.

I guess I'm failing to see how the lack of marriages and births in the modern world is a negative. There's simply more to do in life besides have kids and die. If you guys wish to carry on with this way of life great. More power to you. Just don't force it onto others.
 
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