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Every time people try to "debunk" MBTI and dismiss it like it's on the same level as horoscopes, they always say, "ooooo the Forer effect. Like, people just believe mbti is accurate because it uses vague words that apply to everyone."

Forer effect: A common psychological phenomenon whereby individuals give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically to them, yet which are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people.

Anyway, I always think, 'if I typed as anything other than ENTP and then read the description I'd be like, yeah that is definitely not me.' But seriously though, if I even typed as ESTP I'd know somethings up. It would be way off. But if I typed as INFJ?? Or ISTJ?????
Obviously, MBTI doesn't rely on the Forer effect. And OBVIOUSLY not since tests are only indicators and you have to do your own research and judge for yourself.

Okay, that was a long tangent. I'll get to the point. So, I've always wondered what would happen if MBTI indicator tests were programmed to give you the exact opposite result of what you scored. For example, say you scored ENTP. It would take you to the ISFJ description and say you're an ISFJ. (Or if it's opposite cognitive functions it takes you to INTJ). In my opinion, the MBTI-newbie test takers would be very displeased with their results. They would dismiss them and MBTI entirely. Because... MBTI doesn't use the Forer effect. And this would be empirical proof. Wait, the tangent is still going on.

Okay, this time the tangent is ending for real. So my question today is, say you changed your type on your profile to a drastically different type but then acted exactly the same. Do you think people would notice that you obviously are not that type? Would they call you out or something? I just think that would interesting? There's not really a specific question so discuss!
 

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People would notice something, but most of them are busy thinking and learning about themselves. They would probably think that you're an unhealthy or an unusual example of the type you're presenting. Enneagram and other such flavours are present as well. They might just be people letting you mistype yourself in peace or enjoying the dumpster fire you're creating.

When I first got into MBTI 10+ years ago, I was typed as an INFJ. While I was learning more about cognitive functions, I was roaming around online presenting myself as such and nobody questioned it. Not that drastically different from an INFP at first glance, but it should be noticeable to someone more knowledgeable. I was FiNe-ing all over the place. People were more like moths to a flame, being more interested in getting to know an INFJ than actually confirming the type. There's lots of people who don't pay that much attention to functions, or who are visiting forums just for fun entertainment. They're not the ones to call you out. The other ones wouldn't probably care. It's possible I'm mistyping myself now as well.
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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So my question today is, say you changed your type on your profile to a drastically different type but then acted exactly the same. Do you think people would notice that you obviously are not that type? Would they call you out or something? I just think that would interesting? There's not really a specific question so discuss!
This is a really interesting question and one I think @Turi would be the best suited at answering from personal experience (I also tag him because I'm interested in what he'd say, but I don't want to make a habit of bringing him into conversations he may otherwise not be interested in).

I have my own story regarding this, though. I had been creeping this site for about 2 years before I signed up for it, and I only signed up because I wanted to start a thread about what Matt Berninger's type was (never got a consensus heh). Anyway, when I signed up, me and my daughter had just finished watching The Lego Movie and we thought Unikitty was hilarious, so I made a unikitty icon and put my type as INFP (long story short, this was an obvious mistype, but there's a story behind that as well).

I ended up liking it here and posted here regularly enough, and spent a lot of time at the INFP forum. Then, I decided to be a bit more true-to-self and posted my true type by dichotomy which is INTJ and changed my icon to the plague doctor. Some people, to this day, refuse to accept that I'm actually an INTJ. I don't particularly care, but one person actually said to me once (lol) "You can't just change your icon to something dark and say you're an INTJ. That's not how it works."

::shrugs:: I'm an INTJ; it was obvious to some of the INFPs I spent my initial months here with and I haven't felt more included and "at home" anywhere else ever than the INTJ forum here. I greatly prefer Jung which was the initial typing error I made - I knew I was an IN type (Ni) and I figured I was more in-touch with my F than my T (especially compared to my definitely INTP partner at the time). An honest mistake, but one a lot of people cannot even identify with as I first read Jung's Psychological Types before my family even had a computer, let alone the Internet. I didn't have access to the (mis)information posted all over the internet about MBTI and Grant stacks and such. MBTI just seemed like an abridged Jung when I learned about it in High School Psychology.

Hope this helps your information gathering and also, I'm interested in what Turi says. Again, I'm not going to start tagging you everywhere, Turi ... just thought you might have some interesting points to make from your unique standpoint.

edit to add: I don't think Plague Doctors are dark harbringers of death, though ... I must explain that I quite admire their ability to run straight into danger at the cost of their life to ease a little pain of the dying. That's why the icon plus I'm sorta obsessed with Y. Pestis.
 

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The big counterargument is to make someone (say, an ISTP) read the exact opposite type description (ENFJ) - and they'll go, How the hell do people live like this?
Well, if it's Forer, then (1) no ENFJ could possibly exist, (2) it couldn't be that ENFJs have exactly the same reaction to the ISTP profile.

That said, MBTI and typology in general = largely speculative, many limitations, but yes good fun and not even a bad attempt at measuring something insanely difficult and diverse.
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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That said, MBTI and typology in general = largely speculative, many limitations, but yes good fun and not even a bad attempt at measuring something insanely difficult and diverse.
Curious, do you find Jungian's typology in Psychological Types speculative?
 

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Curious, do you find Jungian's typology in Psychological Types speculative?
Hm-hu, good point. Much like what horoscopes are to actual astrology, MBTI seems like an twisted spin-off of much more legitimate truths.
I haven't actually read about the functions etc. directly from Jung - though, synchronicity has it... I'm currently halfway through his Memories, Dreams, Reflections. It's a start. And there are many many interesting references to his work, that one being one of them.

I'm guessing you have, and the answer to the question = a convincing No?
 

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Every time people try to "debunk" MBTI and dismiss it like it's on the same level as horoscopes, they always say, "ooooo the Forer effect. Like, people just believe mbti is accurate because it uses vague words that apply to everyone."
Anyone that makes these claims doesn't understand the MBTI literally has 60+ years of research behind it - the MBTI, if we're speaking from a pure dichotomy perspective, has more than enough evidence to support it's existence - to support the idea of there being 16 different types of people. There's issues with the methodology, for instance it uses false dichotomies and assumes too many things - but, it still has over half a decade of research and peer-reviewed studies.

People claiming that it's on the same level as horoscopes, while understandable in their intent - aren't actually correct from a more objective perspective.

It's also a little nonsensical, because the MBTI doesn't give everyone the exact same type descriptor - each of the 16 types has it's own unique descriptor - it's not the same as that personality test Derren Brown did where he gave everyone the same thing - that's closer to a horoscope. That's how a lot of people see the MBTI, sure, but they're wrong.

So, I've always wondered what would happen if MBTI indicator tests were programmed to give you the exact opposite result of what you scored. For example, say you scored ENTP. It would take you to the ISFJ description and say you're an ISFJ.
My perspective here is this would produce a more realistic type for most people. Most people don't see who they are. They see who they want to be.
Providing the complete opposite type to people, would probably produce more types that OTHER PEOPLE would agree with - because they see these things in us, they see our shadows with much more clarity than we see it ourselves.

I would LOVE a test that did this. I think that at least following my understandings of Jung - a test revolved around the shadow, or our inferior aspects, would be way, way more practical and infinitely more realistic than the completely subjective rose-tinted versions we have floating about now, including the actual MBTI itself.

Take your own type - you've got ENTP - if you were given an ISFJ result - instead of just saying "that's not me", why not get into WHY it's not you?
What's wrong with it? Which parts of it are incorrect?

What I imagine would happen, is if you dig deep enough, you'll come to find insecurities, you'll come to find projections, you'll come to find a persons true self, and you'll come to find people don't want to accept that. They don't want to see who they truly are. Who they truly are is much darker than they'd like to believe. People would think the opposite type disgusts them, but it's because it'd be exposing inner-world realities, it'd be exposing biases, things they're anxious about, things they project onto others - it'd start getting into their unconscious side - and our unconscious mind is infinitely larger than our conscious mind.

So who are we, really?
Hypothetically - would you be the ENTP, because you nod your head and agree with what you read in a type descriptor - or could you possibly be the ISFJ, because it represents everything you think you're not - it's representative of your shadow, and your shadow makes up a much larger piece of who you are than you'd like to believe. You can't even see it. You're unaware of how much the shadow is you.

I'm not claiming any absolute truth here, just something to think about.
I think tests coming at it from the opposite angle would be far more realistic than how they're currently devised. It's all a little too "feel good", in my opinion, when that's not what any of this is supposed to be about.

So my question today is, say you changed your type on your profile to a drastically different type but then acted exactly the same. Do you think people would notice that you obviously are not that type? Would they call you out or something?
Depends on the person. Some people like to run around accusing others of not being certain types - it's usually Sensors that think they're Intuitives that do this, as it's them projecting their own inferiorities onto others, at least as far as I've observed.

For the most part, I don't think most people would really notice. The ones that do, I doubt the majority would say anything. The ones that do say something, most of them I'd imagine are likely projecting their own insecurities onto the recipient.

I'd like to believe most people understand MBTI types are just a preference, and that everyone can do everything, and they do do everything every other type does on a daily basis - I'd like to think this is common knowledge. To that end, I'd then like to believe that there wouldn't really be such a thing as acting outside of how a type should act - because how a type should act shouldn't really exist - if you understand that it's just based on subjective preferences and not at all in relation to what can be proven.

Turi ... just thought you might have some interesting points to make from your unique standpoint.
I don't really understand what this means but maybe I've covered it. Lol.

That said, MBTI and typology in general = largely speculative
This isn't quite right, is it?
The MBTI has 60+ years of research and peer-reviewed studies behind it - it's hardly "speculative" at this point.
It's not the hardest science of all time, but I think credit where credit's due - the MBTI - insofar as we're talking about the dichotomy, exclusively, isn't speculative at all.

Well, I guess it depends on your own understanding of the MBTI's validity - in this instance, your response would be speculative as it's based on conjecture and not knowledge.
So sure, the MBTI can be largely speculative - to you. :)
 

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Plague Doctor
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I don't really understand what this means but maybe I've covered it. Lol.
Oh sorry lol, I think I got you confused with a hot mistyped ISTP a while back who couldn't seem to convince anyone he really wasn't an ISTP.
 

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So my question today is, say you changed your type on your profile to a drastically different type but then acted exactly the same. Do you think people would notice that you obviously are not that type?
Depends on where one posts, what one posts about, and how often one posts. The people that rarely post here and/or post mostly in non-typology forums (especially Spam or Games/Entertainment), there would not be enough evidence to notice that they're mistyped. People who say bland and uncontroversial things probably have few people even paying attention to them or their type. The Feeler forums seem like hug-boxes where people are more likely to be too "polite"/conflict-averse to call somebody out and more likely to be interested in more pro-social discussions than accurate typings.

The Enneagram forum (maybe Socionics?) seems to attract the more knowledgeable posters, so that's probably the best place to get noticed for being mistyped. There's even a thread there for mistypes. But it's for Enneagram, not Myers-Briggs, so maybe people wouldn't bother unless it's obvious.


Would they call you out or something?
Well there's a rule against disruptive/abusive questioning of other people's types here, although it's perhaps no longer very well-known given that infractions aren't publically visible anymore. In the 8 years I've been a PerC member, I've only ever noticed very active and loud posters have their MB type questioned, and that hasn't happened many times. Maybe I missed the quiet and polite discussions about a mistyped user, though.
 

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This isn't quite right, is it?
The MBTI has 60+ years of research and peer-reviewed studies behind it - it's hardly "speculative" at this point.
It's not the hardest science of all time, but I think credit where credit's due - the MBTI - insofar as we're talking about the dichotomy, exclusively, isn't speculative at all.

Well, I guess it depends on your own understanding of the MBTI's validity - in this instance, your response would be speculative as it's based on conjecture and not knowledge.
So sure, the MBTI can be largely speculative - to you. :)
But what does it say really? Sure, it groups together certain behaviors*, calls them preferences, and is not speculative insofar as there seems to be a consistency there: the pattern repeats itself, thus proving that it must be true.
But what does it say really? Is there anything that is TRUE, 100%, for all people within a certain type, in areas other than the things it measures? Well - emotionally, professionally, morally, genetically, ... I doubt it. You tell me (not rhetorical - you tell me)?

You see that I can muster up a foolproof theory about, say, how people perceive colors and call them Retina Groups of whatever. Let's say I get it 100% right; doctors confirm these distinctions are true, and any eye falls under one of my categories (to do with light and blabla). But what does it say really? What do we learn about the human eye, really? What's the correlation with things like eye color, cataract, blinking habits, dilation of the pupil, etc. Speculation at best. It's a very very slim truth that my theory measures. And I feel like the interpretation of MBTI can easily slip off track like that.

To be clear: I'm not against MBTI. I know my type with 100% certainty and acknowledge it. Just want to warn against taking it further than its sphere of impact.
 

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ISFJ is not even an opposite of ENTP. Sure, the functions are reverse (Ne-Ti-Fe-Si vs Si-Fe-Ti-Ne) but they stay the same. I was reading the ISFJ description during my research and I can see the type in myself. It doesn't come out often and isn't healthy nor successful but it pops up every now and then. I didn't get a "it's definitely not me" impression. It was more "yeah, I am like that sometimes".

I could definitely pull it off and people wouldn't realize. They might only assume I am unhealthy.

It would be different matter if I tried pretending to be a type with totally different functions, particularly Se-Fi-Te-Ni (ESFP) which is the real opposite type. I can't even imagine how to pretend to be one despite being surrounded by ESFPs (my mother and my boss) and seeing them daily. They are sooo different. Well. We are similar in the P aspect at least so the spontaneity stays there but thats all.
 

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I think it depends a lot on the person and the reasons. If someone was pretending to be a type and trying to fit their behaviour to how they think the type would be, it might be hard to detect unless they slip up.
On the other hand, if a test was engineered to give people the wrong type, it might be a good way to reveal how they actually are.

For now though... the tests are hardly good enough to give people a reasonable type, let alone give people an opposite type. It's interesting from a scientific perspective to do an experiment like this and see what the process would be for those people to figure out their actual type, but the tests are currently so unreliable that it's just not feasible to try something like this.

Finally: I see time and again that age, intelligence and emotional maturity are giant factors in how a type manifests. An older ISTP might act similar to an INFJ in some cases, while their type hasn't changed. Giving them an ENFJ typing might convince them that MBTI is just about behaviour and that their type has changed over time, rather than showing them how they have developed themselves over their lifetime.

So while I think the idea is really interesting in a perfect world, under the current system I can't imagine it helping us do anything. It will just give more people the idea that MBTI is rubbish and unreliable.
 

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Plague Doctor
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@Astrida88

Are you of the mindset that the opposite of ENTP is INTJ? Or ... ? Also, regardless of how one calculates one's "opposite type", do you feel this opposite type would be an accurate representation of The Shadow Self?

I think if one sees MBTI as a dichotomy only situation and ignores the Grant Stack (which wasn't part of the original), it's fair to say my opposite type is ESFP. However, I have issues connecting with ENTPs as well. Either way, I think the shadow is more complicated than functions. I think functions can point to the shadow, but aren't really the shadow self. The most one can learn from their opposite type is, maybe deficits and such.

Wondering what your thoughts are on it because it interests me to get other people's ideas.
 

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@Astrida88

Are you of the mindset that the opposite of ENTP is INTJ? Or ... ? Also, regardless of how one calculates one's "opposite type", do you feel this opposite type would be an accurate representation of The Shadow Self?

I think if one sees MBTI as a dichotomy only situation and ignores the Grant Stack (which wasn't part of the original), it's fair to say my opposite type is ESFP. However, I have issues connecting with ENTPs as well. Either way, I think the shadow is more complicated than functions. I think functions can point to the shadow, but aren't really the shadow self. The most one can learn from their opposite type is, maybe deficits and such.

Wondering what your thoughts are on it because it interests me to get other people's ideas.
They are not exact opposites either. They don't share any functions but they share the function order (Ne-Ti-Fe-Si vs Ni-Te-Fi-Se). Both are intuition-doms, sensing-inferiors and share the struggles related to that.

I can follow INTJ worldview even if I don't agree with it, and I spent some time trying on the INTJ mask because I am never sure if I am really ENTP and periodically end up playing with another type to see how natural it feels due to the doubts (I went through INTP, ISTP, ISFJ, INTJ and even ISTJ). It didn't feel right so I returned to my random, childish self but living as INTJ make-believe was within my abilities. I just decided not to because I realized it leads nowhere. I might be able to gain stuff I didn't even care about such as status and respect (Te+Se values) but at the cost of what actually I care about, which is spontaneity and being liked (Ne+Fe values). From my point of view INTJ lead objectively "successful" but lonely and rigid lifes.

I never went deep enough in the shadow functions theory to have my own opinion about that. But now as I read it I can see the "shadow" comes out sometimes, indeed. I always thought it's a Si grip though because I obsess about a single detail, a single problem. It feels like I am trapped. Usually I generate possibilities like crazy but when the grip/shadow happens people are the ones giving me possibilities which I shrug off and mull over in depressive thoughts trying to solve something I can't solve.
 
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