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Discussion Starter #1
After reading in to the MBTI cognitive functions, I came across a stumbling block and rather than assuming my assessment is correct, I figured I'd present it to the community for verification. When Ti rules over Se, it's not to say we don't receive, "impulses" or react based upon our environment, we are just more apt to think before acting, correct?

Edit: My confusion lies in thinking before sensing. Surely, in order to draw an accurate conclusion you must first Se, then Ti upon the Se. I'm thinking I misunderstood the MAIN function, to be the FIRST function, as you must first gather information in order to assess it, properly.
 

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After reading in to the MBTI cognitive functions, I came across a stumbling block and rather than assuming my assessment is correct, I figured I'd present it to the community for verification. When Ti rules over Se, it's not to say we don't receive, "impulses" or react based upon our environment, we are just more apt to think before acting, correct?
Correct.
Edit: My confusion lies in thinking before sensing. Surely, in order to draw an accurate conclusion you must first Se, then Ti upon the Se. I'm thinking I misunderstood the MAIN function, to be the FIRST function, as you must first gather information in order to assess it, properly.
I think you're saying it correctly in the end. Ti is barren without Se or Ne since the function cannot take in information on it's own, only assess what is brought in. On the other hand, Se and Ne have no discriminating value in what they bring in so Ti and Fi act like a filter. As a result and in tandem, ISPs wil generally think before leaping and ESPs will generally leap before thinking. But as both types mature, ISPs may be willing to be more impusive and ESPs may tone it down a great deal.
 

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Correct.I think you're saying it correctly in the end. Ti is barren without Se or Ne since the function cannot take in information on it's own, only assess what is brought in. On the other hand, Se and Ne have no discriminating value in what they bring in so Ti and Fi act like a filter. As a result and in tandem, ISPs wil generally think before leaping and ESPs will generally leap before thinking. But as both types mature, ISPs may be willing to be more impusive and ESPs may tone it down a great deal.
Except, be aware that ISPs can be so efficient at sensing, thinking and acting, that it might appear, even to ourselves, that we are acting impulsively.
 
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As a result and in tandem, ISPs wil generally think before leaping and ESPs will generally leap before thinking. But as both types mature, ISPs may be willing to be more impusive and ESPs may tone it down a great deal.
I've noticed this a great deal regarding my maturity, in retrospect. I had an ESTP friend, who would always jump head first into things when we were younger. I.E. "I bet I could jump off the side of this 10 ft. railing and land safely on my couch." I on the other hand, was a lot more apprehensive, not knowing the couches stability or padding(maybe I'd break a spring), wondering if I'd bounce uncontrollably into the glass table 2 feet away, etc.

So knowing he'd plunge right in, I'd typically just sit back and watch. If I saw success, I'd be off. If not, I'd be happy I thought about it first. Now, it seems as though, I've become more so impulsive and open to taking bigger risks. Perhaps, because with experience, I've realized I can get away with a lot more.

"Except, be aware that ISPs can be so efficient at sensing, thinking and acting, that it might appear, even to ourselves, that we are acting impulsively."

I've noticed this, as well. Often times I'll act and then upon reflection, I'll notice DID in fact put thought behind my actions.
 

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When I think of "reacting to the environment" I'm immediately drawn to a martial arts analogy.

In sparring, or actually fighting for that fact, you would want Se to be at the forefront while still working in tandem with Ti and Ni. I don't think about my next move or my opponent's next move, because my next move is entirely dependent on what my opponent shows me. Say their guard drops, *bam*, there comes an instant reverse punch right on the button. Or, say you're having a heated discussion with someone and all of a sudden you see their fist clench up and their shoulder roll forward as their hand comes up their body for an obvious punch. You can stand there and think about that but, you're probably going to get punched by the time you figure out what to do. You would want to react to that stimulus to ensure you remove yourself from danger, then think about your next move. In this situation, you would rely on you reflexes and whatever muscle memory you've developed for an instant reaction because you actually have several different options to choose from. Trying to run through them to find the best will slow you down and take your senses out of the environment.

The same thing can be said for performing on a stage or in a studio. Being completely in-the-moment largely means turning your conscious thinking off.

Now, if you're talking about "I don't know if we should cliff dive from this spot...". Yeah, I'd think before doing that and probably find a good reason not to do it. However, I don't really view that as reacting to the environment.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
When I think of "reacting to the environment" I'm immediately drawn to a martial arts analogy.

In sparring, or actually fighting for that fact, you would want Se to be at the forefront while still working in tandem with Ti and Ni. I don't think about my next move or my opponent's next move, because my next move is entirely dependent on what my opponent shows me. Say their guard drops, *bam*, there comes an instant reverse punch right on the button. Or, say you're having a heated discussion with someone and all of a sudden you see their fist clench up and their shoulder roll forward as their hand comes up their body for an obvious punch. You can stand there and think about that but, you're probably going to get punched by the time you figure out what to do. You would want to react to that stimulus to ensure you remove yourself from danger, then think about your next move. In this situation, you would rely on you reflexes and whatever muscle memory you've developed for an instant reaction because you actually have several different options to choose from. Trying to run through them to find the best will slow you down and take your senses out of the environment.

The same thing can be said for performing on a stage or in a studio. Being completely in-the-moment largely means turning your conscious thinking off.

Now, if you're talking about "I don't know if we should cliff dive from this spot...". Yeah, I'd think before doing that and probably find a good reason not to do it. However, I don't really view that as reacting to the environment.
Basically, when given the opportunity to think, ISTP's do. Just because Ti is our primary function, that doesn't mean we are putting a conscious thought behind everything, because certain circumstances don't provide that option.

My problem was understanding primary and secondary cognitive functions. The concept think first THEN sense, didn't make any sense to me. I see now that primary doesn't necessarily mean first. Just a slight mix up.
 

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Except, be aware that ISPs can be so efficient at sensing, thinking and acting, that it might appear, even to ourselves, that we are acting impulsively.
I figured someone would comment on this. Words such as impulsive and hedonistic have been removed from Berens and Nardi’s descriptions of SP because they imply some form of acting with no forethought. I am reminded of the ISTP description of ISTP
Like their fellow SPs, ISTPs are fundamentally Performers, but unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. On the contrary, they may lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it. The apparently frenzied state that inevitably ensues is actually much more controlled than it appears--ISTPs always seem to know what they're doing when it comes to physical or mechanical obstacles--but the whole chain of events presents a confusing and paradoxical picture to an outsider.
ISPs will always be in control of their activities, but to on-lookers it may appear we’re not. When you look at the definition of impulsive…..
im·pul·sive ( m-p l s v)
adj.
1. Inclined to act on impulse rather than thought.
2. Motivated by or resulting from impulse: such impulsive acts as hugging strangers; impulsive generosity. See Synonyms at spontaneous.
3. Having force or power to impel or incite; forceful.
4. Physics Acting within brief time intervals. Used especially of a force.
…. This should make it quite apparent that our Ti will not allow us to be impulsive. Although we do use Ti-Se in combination, we are still first and foremost thinking types and our Se at best will be inferior to the Ti.

But impulsive is relative since compared to the average extraverting type, we may appear cautious. However I can’t think of any introverting type that would equal ISTP (even INTP) in appearing impulsive. But again the word is relative since being reactionary is not necessarily considered being impulsive especially the more experience we have in a given situation. Where SPs in general may appear impulsive is in us never learning from our mistakes.
 

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I've noticed this, as well. Often times I'll act and then upon reflection, I'll notice DID in fact put thought behind my actions.
YES! It kinda sucks because I do something genius, and people ask me how I arrived at my decision, and I couldn't tell them.
 

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I find in sports (and probably everything else), practice and repetition greatly reduce dependence on Ti. Everything becomes second nature and it's no longer necessary to play out scenarios in your head before acting. Probably one of the big reasons why many of us value such practice and experience.
 

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I've noticed this a great deal regarding my maturity, in retrospect. I had an ESTP friend, who would always jump head first into things when we were younger. I.E. "I bet I could jump off the side of this 10 ft. railing and land safely on my couch." I on the other hand, was a lot more apprehensive, not knowing the couches stability or padding(maybe I'd break a spring), wondering if I'd bounce uncontrollably into the glass table 2 feet away, etc..
Exactly, all of us had experiences in considering leaping off the roof of houses. The point is we consider then do, ESTPs may only start just considering it after a few broken bones. The quintessential ESTP in my opinion could be Evil Knevil....
 

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I am greatly worried that my youngest boy might be some SP, just because of the number of bones he's already broken acting like Evil Knevil.

That and his penchant for doing fist bumps in the air and shouting "let's get this party staaaart-ed!"

I was never like that -- I was always thinking of all the bad shit that would probably happen to my limbs if I jumped off of the roof.

Now in situations where i must react instantly, I'm not sure what happens. One time I was driving the family car back from a vacation on the highway, and I was only 16. So my dad was letting me drive through a flat part of the country so he could rest. A fog rolled in, and I couldn't see too far ahead of me. All of the sudden a giant tool box appeared in the road in front of me (it must have fallen off a pickup truck, it was one of those huge ones that span the truckbed behind the cab)
I had literally 1 second to decide what to do. Now if it had been empty, i could have just hit it. If it was full of something heavy though, that was going to be devastating. I couldn't slam on the brakes because there was traffic behind me. So I just barely eased up on the gas, and swerved off onto the shoulder going 70. as soon as i passed the toolbox i swerved back onto the road, and then hit the gas again so I wouldn't get hit from behind in case things went bad. (this whole event only lasted about 5 seconds total)

My dad woke up in a terror and freaked out, wanting to know why i didn't SLOW DOWN! (ISTJ) :laughing:

I was calm, I felt like I'd handled it right and we were good to go.
 

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I am greatly worried that my youngest boy might be some SP, just because of the number of bones he's already broken acting like Evil Knevil.

That and his penchant for doing fist bumps in the air and shouting "let's get this party staaaart-ed!"

I was never like that -- I was always thinking of all the bad shit that would probably happen to my limbs if I jumped off of the roof.
I guarantee you I am an ISTP, and I broke several dozen bones as a kid.

Some ISTPs like adventurous activities. I expect boys especially so.

So I wouldn't let this alone worry you. Most of us survive. We mostly only take calculated risks, where we have a good idea of the outcome... for good or bad.

I always think of the consequences if something goes wrong, and try to mitigate them.
 

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I broke several bones, too. Oddly, very few of them where while I was actually doing something dangerous. Most where while I just wasn't paying attention while being too comfortable.

About jumping off the roof. My friends literally did that, into a four foot deep above ground pool. Here's the catch, they had to jump 3=4 feet out from the house and over a power line! I told them there were stupid and that someone was going to get hurt. About two months later, someone's foot hit the powerline and he ended up landing with his back across the edge of the pool. Thankfully he didn't break it but, I laughed at all of them when the pool got drained for the rest of the summer.
 

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Nice driving! Ever wonder if the next car behind you was as fortunate or if they hit the toolbox?
I've had to swerve a number of times too. Like this time a ladder ended up on the freeway just in front of me. Several other times cars in the lane next to me didn't even bother to look before changing lanes.
My most memorable one was changing lanes before I cleared an intersection. Up ahead was a car slowing down getting ready to pull into a shopping center/parking lot. I anticipated the car in front of me slowing so I changed lanes so that I wouldn't have to slow down. Right behind me was a tailgater going as fast as I was. He never saw what was up ahead and plowed right into the back of the other car! I heard the squeal of brakes and the crunch of metal and broken glass as I drove off into the sunset.

I am greatly worried that my youngest boy might be some SP, just because of the number of bones he's already broken acting like Evil Knevil.

That and his penchant for doing fist bumps in the air and shouting "let's get this party staaaart-ed!"

I was never like that -- I was always thinking of all the bad shit that would probably happen to my limbs if I jumped off of the roof.

Now in situations where i must react instantly, I'm not sure what happens. One time I was driving the family car back from a vacation on the highway, and I was only 16. So my dad was letting me drive through a flat part of the country so he could rest. A fog rolled in, and I couldn't see too far ahead of me. All of the sudden a giant tool box appeared in the road in front of me (it must have fallen off a pickup truck, it was one of those huge ones that span the truckbed behind the cab)
I had literally 1 second to decide what to do. Now if it had been empty, i could have just hit it. If it was full of something heavy though, that was going to be devastating. I couldn't slam on the brakes because there was traffic behind me. So I just barely eased up on the gas, and swerved off onto the shoulder going 70. as soon as i passed the toolbox i swerved back onto the road, and then hit the gas again so I wouldn't get hit from behind in case things went bad. (this whole event only lasted about 5 seconds total)

My dad woke up in a terror and freaked out, wanting to know why i didn't SLOW DOWN! (ISTJ) :laughing:

I was calm, I felt like I'd handled it right and we were good to go.
 

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Nice driving! Ever wonder if the next car behind you was as fortunate or if they hit the toolbox?
....
I heard the squeal of brakes and the crunch of metal and broken glass as I drove off into the sunset.
Yeah I worried about the people behind me, but there wasn't anything I could do about it.. and for some reason that story made me laugh. I would have been like "oooooh, should have been looking ahead dummy!" But then I have a tendency to yell while I'm driving...
 

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He could be an INXJ if he continues breaking that many bones until his teens when he finally gives up and receeds into the shadows and gets fat. The road is looking good.
 

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But then I have a tendency to yell while I'm driving...
Me too. It is by far my favorite pastime. My preferred expletive at the moment is "good going, you moron."

I'm also a fan of the thumbs-up instead of flipping someone off; there's something innately sarcastic about the thumbs-up that appeals to me.
 

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I'm also a fan of the thumbs-up instead of flipping someone off; there's something innately sarcastic about the thumbs-up that appeals to me.
LOL I'm going to have to use that, because I wouldn't flip anyone off (kids in the car, you know!) -- that is perfect :crazy:
Lately it's been a lot of "Nice, gramps."
 
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