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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Where do our thoughts originate?

Don't they start as a feeling in a way?


It's not like the words for an idea float into our heads. We translate an idea we have into words. So if it didn't start as words it must be an inclination, or a feeling about knowing something.

The descriptions of Ti say this too. INTPs are known for being able to translate the ideas into a easily understood description with words.


So would you say it's accurate to conclude that our abstract ideas start as a feeling? Unless they are rote data, our ideas start as a feeling. Just like the Ni and Fi descriptions do.

All ideas originate from the internal mind as a concept. Our brains translate them into the language we learned in our country.



Ti tries to fact-check the idea by subtracting the weight of emotion from it in order to avoid bias. This causes a negative bias, but Ti sees it as neutral.

Fi is the same process, but doesn't always subtract the emotion from it, so they end up with a more positive bias, so they look more like idealists and are known to value emotions more.
 

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No... just no.

I hate the word "feeling" whenever there is logic involved.

It would be wiser to say "intuition" which, some would regard as a feeling but I see it as more of an immediate understanding. It's like putting together a puzzle based off of the material we already have. It's like an "aha" moment.

I think Fi is more concerned with obsessing about the details in order to fix an identity for one's self, while Ti is about obsessing about the details in order to figure out how it all fits into the bigger picture.

Both detail oriented. But that's about all they share.
 

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YES! i'm with you on this one, at least the core idea.

We can't 'think like we were when we were kids' but if you could you would know that it is a wash of emotional subjective labeling. Ti is a later process that sorts these labels into circles of reasonableness that give Ti doms our instinct for accuracy. Ti develops in all people but remains subconscious in most.

Think of it from a developmental perspective rather than an exclusively symmetrical system.
 

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Jung uses the description of "primordial images" in Ni, Ti and Fi. I think inspiration comes from feeling, if that is what you are referring to. To say where thoughts originate is a difficult thing to answer. I could imagine that when extremely young there is a whole lot of intuition going on. If you notice, thoughts happen very quickly and it's hard to take in all of the nuance going on, for there are definitely other functions coming into play and contributing.

And I still believe F is related more to N and T is related more to S.
 
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It takes some feelings or emotions, for Ti to conserve itself almost, like you don't want others involved and why can't others just allow you to be. that conserving of sorts, can bring up defensive emotions in me, not so much as to show them as expressively as an F, but these emotions are still there and understandable, and they're genuinely deeper than people would think once they get to know me. I think its a sort of sensitivity to myself, almost. Anyway, feelings of INTPs are not necessarily in the introverted Feeling sense, but I agree that every function has a degree of emotions associated with it. However, introverted feeling, however much, sounding like it has something to do with emotions, is pretty different from what we know as emotions.

to be more direct to your question @ConspiracyTheory what you described sounds a lot like hunches, or at least emotions which lead to hunches, and everyone has hunches or emotions even persons with aspergers who have little understanding of social interaction or facial recognition or other social cues. I think introverted Feeling or Thinking encompass far greater natures and systems within ourselves.

anyway, I think this is supported by CBT where CBT posits that emotions originate from thoughts, and you can change emotions based on changing thoughts, so that's directly contradicting the idea, that thinking or thought processes could come from feeling.

So I think it's more hunches, like those trained physical sensations, intuitions, feelings and basically reactions either internally or externally generated, which leads us to think things in that painstakingly accurate to myself, thought process you described where emotions or emotional intensity varies with the accuracy of an idea. (Good distinguishing there)

sometimes, I will think up something that emotionally is biased in your description, but push it aside for a greater rational process of thinking, which my Ti states otherwise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
No... just no.

I hate the word "feeling" whenever there is logic involved.

It would be wiser to say "intuition" which, some would regard as a feeling but I see it as more of an immediate understanding. It's like putting together a puzzle based off of the material we already have. It's like an "aha" moment.

I think Fi is more concerned with obsessing about the details in order to fix an identity for one's self, while Ti is about obsessing about the details in order to figure out how it all fits into the bigger picture.

Both detail oriented. But that's about all they share.
But feeling really means something more like "subjectivity" or "intuition", "hunches", like you said, which Ti has.

Ti has identity orientation too, wanting to see themselves as competent and knowledgeable, worthy, amiable...these are based on an inner feeling.


Don't we use feelings and hunches to conclude the answer to what is logical? Logical opinions come from inner feeling of right and wrong. It's not like you flip a coin. You have some feeling in the direction you decide... I don't think Ti logic is neutral, I think it's just biased in the opposite direction of Fi.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
YES! i'm with you on this one, at least the core idea.

We can't 'think like we were when we were kids' but if you could you would know that it is a wash of emotional subjective labeling. Ti is a later process that sorts these labels into circles of reasonableness that give Ti doms our instinct for accuracy. Ti develops in all people but remains subconscious in most.

Think of it from a developmental perspective rather than an exclusively symmetrical system.
Yea I think I know what you're saying. If we strip all of our ego and look at ourselves wihout the learned identity, then we can see where our thoughts originate. They are primitive. Before they are translated into words and weighed against society, they are just hunches and subjectivity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Jung uses the description of "primordial images" in Ni, Ti and Fi. I think inspiration comes from feeling, if that is what you are referring to. To say where thoughts originate is a difficult thing to answer. I could imagine that when extremely young there is a whole lot of intuition going on. If you notice, thoughts happen very quickly and it's hard to take in all of the nuance going on, for there are definitely other functions coming into play and contributing.

And I still believe F is related more to N and T is related more to S.
So do Ti and Fi experience that same inspiration, and thinking refers to deleting emotional value from it and feeling refers to considering emotional value from it?
 

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Where do our thoughts originate?

Don't they start as a feeling in a way?


It's not like the words for an idea float into our heads. We translate an idea we have into words. So if it didn't start as words it must be an inclination, or a feeling about knowing something.

The descriptions of Ti say this too. INTPs are known for being able to translate the ideas into a easily understood description with words.


So would you say it's accurate to conclude that our abstract ideas start as a feeling? Unless they are rote data, our ideas start as a feeling. Just like the Ni and Fi descriptions do.

All ideas originate from the internal mind as a concept. Our brains translate them into the language we learned in our country.



Ti tries to fact-check the idea by subtracting the weight of emotion from it in order to avoid bias. This causes a negative bias, but Ti sees it as neutral.

Fi is the same process, but doesn't always subtract the emotion from it, so they end up with a more positive bias, so they look more like idealists and are known to value emotions more.
You're describing Ti and Fi in cooperation with other functions. For the things I have a strong opinion about, I know it starts really early as Fe. Then, I take this as an accepted and reasonable parameter, and then Ti leads with logic, including this parameter. The process starts as a feeling, yes, but then it's not Ti. Ti is the function that hears "yes" on the right, and sees "no" on the left, and sees that there is a conflict. Or hears "yes" and hears "no". It's a filter for information. The Ti process alone is devoid of feeling, and the Fi process alone is devoid of logic. If Ti includes feelings, then there is some F at work somewhere ; same for Fi, if it includes logic, then there is some T at work somewhere.

It's not a negative bias. It's a preferred bias. See it like that : our Ti is dominant, so when pondering a decision, the only parameter heavier than the others, is logic, you could see it as a bowling bowl. All other parameters, including the feeling of the user (Fi) and the feeling of other people (Fe), have the same weight. You can see them as tennis balls. They are considered, they are taken in account. They just don't decide most of the time, because the bowling bowl is so heavy.

Fi is a preferred bias, too. The bowling bowl is the feeling of the user ; the rest, including logic and the feeling of other people, is a bunch of tennis balls. To say it's positive, well. No.

However, I think my process, at least, is shaped by my Fe. It's not always visible, most of the time it's buried really fucking deep, but my Fe is lurking, always, and it shapes my process, my thinking, how I receive information. It has a much stronger influence than just outbursts of anger. But Ti, in itself, just listens to, and processes the information its being fed. Sometimes the information is a feeling, coming from another function.
 

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So do Ti and Fi experience that same inspiration, and thinking refers to deleting emotional value from it and feeling refers to considering emotional value from it?
The subjective nature of thinking makes me want to resist the idea that value is altogether deleted. But when I arrive at the "essence" of something, it's almost like I turn it into stand alone... things... (I don't know if object is the right word) where in some sense I will regard it as something that can or cannot resemble other "things" (I use the term thing very liberally). I think Fi doesn't create this separation, or will at least resist it. Instead, the thing will forever be tied to themselves. I think Ti and Fi can experience the same inspiration, but their desires that derive from what I just described tend to be different. Fi will want to connect something that adds another interesting emotional dimension to their overall scheme, and Ti will want to bring further clarity to what they have mentally collected.
 

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Ti is about impersonal internal consistency. Fi is about ethical internal consistency.

That being said, Ti cannot function strictly independently of Fe, just like Fi cannot function without Te. The functions work in tandem, even if one must be repressed in favor of the other.
 
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