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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello again, everyone :happy: Good to be back.

I'm unsatisfied by the descriptions of Ti and Fi that I see around in books or online. While generally the end result is somewhat correct, I know that each function goes deeper than it's external manifestation. I also want to assert that they are much more similar than they appear.

I'm not Ti, so I'm basing this on my interpretations of other people's introspection. Please correct me or elaborate. The more personal observations the better. Also, please correct me on any N bias I may be adding.

Ti is an abstract deductive reasoning process. Would it be correct to say that Ti focuses on stripping away at the superficial side of any given object/situation to find the inner and pure objective information? Ti then goes to define and ultimately fit the piece of information into an internal model of all objective information collected thus far. All done unconsciously for the most part until a particularly complex bit of information cannot fit in which case both the information and the internal construct are called into question until all inconsistencies are worked out and the puzzle is solved. The larger problems require varying amounts of time, energy, and logical processing until everything fits once again. This is how Ti can pinpoint inconsistencies from miles away, the information they received is not the proper shape or not even from the same puzzle as they understand the world to function.

Fi would then be an abstract integration process taking into account pure subjective information or 'feelings'. The internal world model is constructed less of logical systems as Ti. Fi focuses less on defining new information and more on simply understanding and then integrating it to the basic framework already in place. Like conducting and building a song one instrumental piece at a time. Fi is focused on how things work together, and dissonance is readily apparent. A distinction from the inconsistency targeting of Ti where things must fit, Fi can work with small inconsistencies as long as the bigger picture can still function as whole.

Objectivity and subjectivity are a large separation in the functions. Fi types are very close to their inner feelings, understand them, yet the objectivity of language prevents them from expressing this portion of their being. Fi then needs to take subjective viewpoints into account in their internal world model because that is the part world they best understand and they see it to affect their worldview greatly. This is not to say they ignore objectivity, yet a danger zone for Fi (DomFi especially) is to ignore objective truth that doesn't harmonize with their subjective truth resulting in either an overly-emotional or a self-centered person (or both, depending on your perspective). Ti, on the other hand, is either does not understand it like Fi can (much like Fi has a harder time with deductive reasoning of objective qualities), or deems it irrelevant. An unbalanced Ti would be entirely disconnected with the human element leaving their world model incomplete and too rigid for that sort of information. (ironically becoming too subjective in their objectivity)

I view the two functions as then starting from the same point when given piece of information and going opposite directions (not necessarily to opposing conclusions, however). Fi preferring to work outward only going inward when harmony is not achieved, and Ti working inward venturing outward when the pieces do not fit. Thus, they are almost mirror processes, neither being more or less rational than the other; only as rational as the information going in.



It's a work in progress and I may not have organized my thoughts properly. Please tell me for personal view on how you use/experience these functions.
 

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This is not to say they ignore objectivity, yet a danger zone for Fi (DomFi especially) is to ignore objective truth that doesn't harmonize with their subjective truth resulting in either an overly-emotional or a self-centered person (or both, depending on your perspective).
Indeed. To be blind to either objectivity or subjectivity is an issue of perception, not judgment; either by not using it at all or using it only in servitude to the judgement.

Not that you were implying otherwise, but I think it should be mentioned that Fi is concerned with more than just rudimentary emotions. This is a common misconception as Feeling is a misleading term. Holistic Judging is what I would prefer to use.
 

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Nice work. I'm tempted to ask about starting a research team.....we should do it! =P

Kevin could work on the neurology, you and nephilimazrael on the technicalities.....and me on.....well....I dunno....maybe you guys should do it haha.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Indeed. To be blind to either objectivity or subjectivity is an issue of perception, not judgment; either by not using it at all or using it only in servitude to the judgement.

Not that you were implying otherwise, but I think it should be mentioned that Fi is concerned with more than just rudimentary emotions. This is a common misconception as Feeling is a misleading term. Holistic Judging is what I would prefer to use.
True. I tried to steer away from using the term emotion for that reason. I'd like to be able to go more in depth on the topic of feelings versus emotions. I've been thinking on it a bit.

I like the term holistic judging.
 

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Let me just start by saying that I quite enjoyed this article before jumping in. I agree with just about everything not directly addressed below. I especially liked your references to deductive reasoning.

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Given your definitions of objectivity and subjectivity, it's quite clear from your article what you meant when using them. I merely wanted to expand upon and perhaps clarify a few things slightly. There are two different meanings for these terms, and, depending upon the manner in which they're applied, can make a great deal of difference.

Ti attempts to be objective in that it seeks to be impersonal. To naturally exclude 'irrational' human element from its calculations, for lack of a better term. However, it has also been referred to as subjective (by Jung himself, no less) in the sense that it is subject-oriented. That is, oriented around oneself rather than some necessarily external factor(s). It operates on the assumption that past truths were and continue to be true until they prove to be otherwise. Constantly endeavoring to build a sort of empirical house of cards. Immature INTPs and ISTPs (Ti-primary) have a great deal of trouble with not simply disregarding foreign manners of thinking, as well as the ideas resulting from such, as being inherently stupid, nonsensical, and, above all else, illogical.

The other question I have is about the abstractions you mention. I believe that to be primarily caused by our use of intuition. My Ti--and your Fi, for that matter--works along abstract lines because that's the sort of information we take in to be processed with our respective judging functions. Which is to say that STPs are more comfortable working along concrete lines, what with their having a natural proclivity to take in data in such a manner and therefore a great deal more practice with processing it that way. I'd like to see our resident SPs weigh in on the manner in which their internal processes operate. ISTPs and ISFPs especially.
 

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The other question I have is about the abstractions you mention. I believe that to be primarily caused by our use of intuition. My Ti--and your Fi, for that matter--works along abstract lines because that's the sort of information we take in to be processed with our respective judging functions. Which is to say that STPs are more comfortable working along concrete lines, what with their having a natural proclivity to take in data in such a manner and therefore a great deal more practice with processing it that way. I'd like to see our resident SPs weigh in on the manner in which their internal processes operate. ISTPs and ISFPs especially.
I talked a little about this in the "Introverted Feeling" thread in the NF forum. Fi very much relates to how I feel about the world around me. It is activated by sights, sounds, tastes, scents, colour, line, volume, temperature, health, and the expressions, emotions, and even fashions of people around me, just to name a few triggers. It's related to mood, ambience and vibe, and to how I can adapt myself to the environment or the environment to myself. It's less about people, ideals, or ethics than an INFP might feel, although I'm of course not oblivious to any of those things.

I've come to think of Fi as firmly attached to and inseparable from Se.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ti attempts to be objective in that it seeks to be impersonal. To naturally exclude 'irrational' human element from its calculations, for lack of a better term. However, it has also been referred to as subjective (by Jung himself, no less) in the sense that it is subject-oriented. That is, oriented around oneself rather than some necessarily external factor(s). It operates on the assumption that past truths were and continue to be true until they prove to be otherwise. Constantly endeavoring to build a sort of empirical house of cards. Immature INTPs and ISTPs (Ti-primary) have a great deal of trouble with not simply disregarding foreign manners of thinking, as well as the ideas resulting from such, as being inherently stupid, nonsensical, and, above all else, illogical.
Thanks. I'll have to phrase it more clearly, but I think we are on the same page. Ti is a subjective process but it seeks to use objective information, or information that can be quantified and is standard regardless of observer. Fi does not dismiss the idea of perspective and seeks to include the human element with the information it gathers. Both processes are subjective in that they depend on the person involved to interpret the data.

The other question I have is about the abstractions you mention. I believe that to be primarily caused by our use of intuition. My Ti--and your Fi, for that matter--works along abstract lines because that's the sort of information we take in to be processed with our respective judging functions. Which is to say that STPs are more comfortable working along concrete lines, what with their having a natural proclivity to take in data in such a manner and therefore a great deal more practice with processing it that way. I'd like to see our resident SPs weigh in on the manner in which their internal processes operate. ISTPs and ISFPs especially.
As I said, I'm not sure where the intuition plays into this exactly. I was assuming that the information that would be taken with FiSe would be concrete physically, but abstractly stored and used in the mind.

I enjoy the responses I've gotten from our isfp members. Anything that can help me separate Ne/Se from Fi is extremely helpful.
 

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Thanks for posting this, Psilo, it was very interesting!

I think what you talk about is mostly NFs and NTs, since Ss are less prone to building webs of abstractions. I believe Ss work more with patterns, where all the information they store is in the same level and connections are simple, like a quilt made out of patches of concrete facts. Ns, on the other hand, build complex hierarchies full of connections, and disregard the concrete.

Both ways have their pros and cons, but i think you are addressing Ns in your article :)
 

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I have a friend which by internet standards could pass easily as INTP, he by the way, when first presented with the MBTI theory was a self declared INTP because of a internet test he took and because of the few profiles I send him describing INTPs.

Well, I knew he was not a INTP in the first place, and so I did let him reach his conlussion basically knowing that he'd say he was an INTP just to prove something I had hypotesized long before he reached his conclussion.

INFPs like to think they are INTPs.

At least those ones who have intelligence stablished as a high value quality in a person.

The reason is simple, and I'll be using him as an example.

There's a major difference between the 2 of us that simply wouldn't pass scrutiny under anyone decent user of Ti. He's big on arts, while I'm big on sciences. And when I said big, I'm talking about our biggest motivators in life, the part which can be considered the path we will be taking in life and that thing which dominated profusely on our minds almost all the time.

Art is a subjective topic, basically it means there's no logical reason in it, it is ultimately always, without fail, every time, in all topics which concern arts, a matter of personal value.

And there is no place like that for a thing as Ti to thrive because Ti is not only the most impresonal of all the functions, but the most anti-personal of all as it will try to get rid of all that cannot be considerated universal and absolute as logic ultimately is.

Arts is the domain of Fi, as Fi is the most personal of all the functions, it deals with one's value system, that human or abstract qualities which we can define as best or right for us. Creativity, orginality as examples of those.

So there you can actually put Fi and Ti as opposites of one another, one tries to get rid of all personal, relative and subjective values to only leave the absolute and universal while the other tries to put those values in and get rid of that that is absolute and universal, like trying to put flavor in pristine water.

Of course this doesn't mean that INFPs try to put subjetivity and personal values in everything, but just in those areas which can allow it. As INFPs will have a different value system for science, prising those things as rationality and intelligence, and ruthless absolute universal truths too, as those are considered to be "good qualities" to have in science.

The Fi as I said has a value system, which will put different values based on the area ones is talking about, while for the INTP, the logic, is all that matters, in just everything there is. If an area of knowledge is from its nature subjective and personal, we just will not make an effort to contribute in it.

Questions or clarifications, leave your post down here, I'll be sure to reply it.

Hope it helps :bored:
 

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So there you can actually put Fi and Ti as opposites of one another, one tries to get rid of all personal, relative and subjective values to only leave the absolute and universal while the other tries to put those values in and get rid of that that is absolute and universal, like trying to put flavor in pristine water.
I think this is a very good point !

When i was studying in electronics, i hated the raw objective mathematical theory of everything with a passion, especially because indeed i think i couldn't put a part of myself in such abstract and meaningless work.

However, when i was working on a personal project and that i had to use those theories as tools to reach my goal, i suddenly found a fond interest in them.


Art can be something taken very logically though, there is a logic behind why, for example, a picture work and another doesn't. And indeed on that logic structure go the subjective values and motivations of the artist; but they are nothing without that structure.


edit: i also noticed something funny during a discussion with my INTP friend; we were in the car on the highway when i spotted a nice Porsche behind us : " Woaw look at that car, how much could this possibly cost ? must be something like 90 000 euros." my friend : "Goddammit stop doing that, you don't even know how much that car cost, why do you make random guesses like that ?" ; "I don't know, maybe because when i can't have an answer i like to create myself one in the meantime."

:tongue:
 

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Arts is the domain of Fi
Fi is a judging function. Ti is a judging function. What has the judging got to do with art? It is the the perceiving function which drives artistic creation. There is no reason at all why an INTP can't be artistic. Michaelangelo was INTP. He was also artistic.

In the same way INFPs can be technical. Again, it is the capacity to abstract, to intuit and see patterns, derived from the N perceiving function, which enables INFPs to be technical.
 

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Fi is a judging function. Ti is a judging function. What has the judging got to do with art?
Art is a form of self-expression, Ti user don't have anything about themselves to express, literary science or documentary films only, and that kind of thing, if you consider that art anyway. I don't.

It is the the perceiving function which drives artistic creation.
Ne (in my case) drives artistic creation? How is that? I use Ne to gather information, not to do something about it, Ti is the one who will do something about it, don't get your point of Ne having anything to do with artistic creation (perception, I can understand tho).

There is no reason at all why an INTP can't be artistic. Michaelangelo was INTP. He was also artistic.
You can't be typed before MBTI theory, and then claim afterwards you're an artistic INTP, something which from the beginning would have make you a non INTP.

That's how it works, first the personality and then the pigeonholing, not the other way around.

In the same way INFPs can be technical. Again, it is the capacity to abstract, to intuit and see patterns, derived from the N perceiving function, which enables INFPs to be technical.
Yes they can be, but as I said because a system of values will take precedence and determine what's better in this area, it can pass through as "technical", well in fact it is, but the core, the reason behind it all is a system of values that changes according to what is being talked about, not an absolute, all permeating logic, like those of Ti predominant users.
 

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Hi Tlatoani

I think what I'm trying to say is that when I look into my own self and try to monitor the creative process, it seems to me that artistic creation starts with perception. Until a person has perceived something, they can't draw it, or carve it, or sing it, or act it, or dance it. First there is the perception, then there follows the artistic rendering of that perception. Judging doesn't come into it, not until the artist has to make a decision about their art. Do I like this? Is it good? That's when the judging functions kick in. It just isn't the case that Fi is arty and Ti isn't. Again, look at Michaelangelo, one of the greatest genius ever to live. He was a mechanic, an engineer, a visionary, an architect, a mathematician and an artist of amazing skill. Because he was an INTP he was able to use his art to support intuitive leaps, to design and draw things that didn't actually exist in his 'real world'. Like helicopters, and submarines, and flying machines. S artists rarely draw things that don't exist. They draw you beautiful, photographically accurate renditions of things you can see and touch in the real world. How can they not? Thaty is the world they perceive. Why would they depict something else?

Look at the Artisans, an entire temperament of types - the SPs. What unites the artisan types is their extraverted Sensing perception, whether in dominant or secondary place. The work of S artists is usually closer to reality, in look, or feel, or form. They enjoy using tools. They will sculpt and carve and cut cloth, they manipulate things they can interact with through their extraverted sensing. N artists on the other hand tend to produce abstract art. How can they not? All they can know of the world is what they get through their perception. Judging makes decisions, it doesn't capture information. Judging processes the data presented by Perception, that's why I think it has to drive the art style. Without perception to provide the raw imagery, the raw symbology, the raw data, art can't happen. Blind people don't paint.

INTP artists - INTP Forum
 

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I think this is a very good point !

When i was studying in electronics, i hated the raw objective mathematical theory of everything with a passion, especially because indeed i think i couldn't put a part of myself in such abstract and meaningless work.

However, when i was working on a personal project and that i had to use those theories as tools to reach my goal, i suddenly found a fond interest in them.
I think the same sort of thing happened with me and my science background. I've always enjoyed the broader understanding of the world from science, especially all the weirder stuff and astronomical stuff that seems more metaphysical or fantastical than real, but have had trouble connecting with the math and grittier details of the theory, especially for basic mechanics and whatnot. Then, once I finally had some research to work on on my own, I finally was able to begin to care about some of it. The fact that I can do and actively enjoy some parts of science has made me wonder if I might be an intp instead, but then I remember that I hate proofs and can barely follow other people's math or logic. Once I have the conclusions, though, I can use those larger ideas to try to pull everything together. Thank god for mathematica...

Probably doesn't hurt that my research involves basically making small bolts of lightning. Kind of hits on the inner "oooh...pretty..." vibe.
 

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]Thanks Psilo, I was about to paste Jung's recap of the introverted rational functions, but your descriptions seem better. Several things that I appreciate and agree on is although they are both subjective, Ti deludes itself into believing they are objective. Also that is a great comparison that Ti being deductive and Fi integrative. I must disagree on principal that contrary to MBTI, Ti both start from the same pont because they are introverted judging functions. I would argue that contrary to MBTI Ti unbalanced does not disconnected with the human element, with it's own internal moral code and values. This could lead to a disconnect with the human element but that would lead to going external. Many times even those closest to Ti dominant types are unaware they are going through an unbalanced phase. That tells me the unbalanced or shadow of ITPs is not Fe, but instead Fi, in particularly since if you truly think about it one can Ti-Fe although it would appear awkward, but one cannot Ti-Fi since we can only introvert and/or extravert one function at a time. Again a great thread.
 

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Tis generally wonder "why?" and "how?" while Fis typically wonder "what if?"scenarios, which is why Tis generally make good problem solvers and Fis good artists.
There are Ts who are excellent artists as well, but I can see where being an "F" would give one an advantage for the abstract representation of "feelings" whereas the T artist would probably give a more abstract representation of concepts or ideas.
 

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I would have to disagree with the statement that the major difference between Ti and Fi is the arts and science. I am a dominant Ti, and I have always enjoyed and been skilled at both the arts and science. I think that the arts appealed to my Se and the sciences to my Ti.

S artists rarely draw things that don't exist. They draw you beautiful, photographically accurate renditions of things you can see and touch in the real world. How can they not? That is the world they perceive. Why would they depict something else?....What unites the artisan types is their extraverted Sensing perception, whether in dominant or secondary place. The work of S artists is usually closer to reality, in look, or feel, or form. They enjoy using tools. They will sculpt and carve and cut cloth, they manipulate things they can interact with through their extraverted sensing.
I definitely identify with this! My drawings are usually of the natural world...mostly landscapes. Within that medium, I can do a little inventing; but I need that foundation, that connection with the concrete world.
 
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