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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys. Lately I've been a bit confused about my type (INTP/INFJ). And I was wondering if this could be because I'm having trouble seeing the difference between Ni and Ti. To me, they both seem like a subjective "complete the pattern" function. But I think Ti is much more concerned with reaching a conclusion whereas Ni is more about "seeing" as much as possible. I don't know, it's hard to put into words. Anyway, can you guys explain their major differences?:mellow:
 

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Well Ti isn't really comparable to Ni as they are different kinds of functions. T and F are the decision makers while S and N are about information gathering so in theory an INFJ uses Fe to decide something considering what's best for the group while an INTP uses Ti, deciding subjectively from their mind. The confusion can be increased when an INFJ uses tertiary Ti in place of secondary Fe to make the decision, and this is supposedly more common in males where Fe is seen as "unmanly" by society.

I suggest you try and work out whether you use Ne or Ni (easier said than done, for me at least) to decide whether you're NFJ or NTP and if you decide NTP don't discount being an E - they are very introverted for extroverts and many of them have similar struggles being sociable.

Good luck :happy:
 

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Ni gives me "aha!" moments, intuitive realizations, but doesn't explain how something works. I've read that it is associated with blind belief, believing something is just true without understand how it can be true or how it works, with reaching conclusion without knowing the steps the followed there and I can say this sounds very much true.

Ti to the contrary is very busy figuring how things work. So in my case because I have both my Ti wants to deconstruct these intuitive vibes, pull them apart into pieces, label these pieces and inspect how they relate to each other - it wants to understand how an intuitive vibe generated by Ni works, why is it so, how did Ni reach such-and-such conclusion. I think for INTP his or her Ti will be doing same to Ne-generated ideas and intuitive hunches but achieving much greater inner clarity than tertiary Ti of INFJs or auxiliary Ti of ENTPs. Ni to the contrary doesn't feel clear at all. I also noticed that Ti users may feel a need to make up their mind about something, to form and hold an opinion on things, but Ni just wants to encompass everything, all possibilities, and doesn't care to prioritize some things over others.

Way to distinguish Ne from Ni is that Ni inspects things that have already happened in past, seeing trends and patterns of the past, and then it flips these patterns and trends into the future. So it looks like a future oriented function but in reality it is very much past oriented, but just mirrors past into future. I also think Ni as if subtracts meaning from environment. It is very good at spotting things it deems meaningless. Ne is more about working with what you have in present to model something conceptually new out of it. Ne to the contrary of Ni seems to just pick up things in environment and create meaning for them rather than subtracting meaning. So then if you know which propensities you have in your thinking then you can figure out whether you use Ni or Ne.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for your responses. You guys were quite helpful. And, after doing some research, I've re-re-re-re-confirmed my INTPishness. :proud:
 

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vel said:
I think for INTP his or her Ti will be doing same to Ne-generated ideas and intuitive hunches but achieving much greater inner clarity than tertiary Ti of INFJs or auxiliary Ti of ENTPs. ... I also noticed that Ti users may feel a need to make up their mind about something, to form and hold an opinion on things, but Ni just wants to encompass everything, all possibilities, and doesn't care to prioritize some things over others.
Thanks for that vel - you just put the last nail in my "I" :crazy:
 

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Most INTJs and INFJs are pretty sure of their type from the beginning.

Te and Fe are I suppose a little more decisive by nature.

As stated above Ti and Ni are two very different things.

Ni is like a calculator in that you punch in your variables and the answer comes back pretty quickly.

Ti is like a microscope. It tries to see things up close and gets into the tiny details.

So in short, one tries to predict cause and effect while the other examines it.
 

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Ni gives me "aha!" moments, intuitive realizations, but doesn't explain how something works. I've read that it is associated with blind belief, believing something is just true without understand how it can be true or how it works, with reaching conclusion without knowing the steps the followed there and I can say this sounds very much true.

Ti to the contrary is very busy figuring how things work. So in my case because I have both my Ti wants to deconstruct these intuitive vibes, pull them apart into pieces, label these pieces and inspect how they relate to each other - it wants to understand how an intuitive vibe generated by Ni works, why is it so, how did Ni reach such-and-such conclusion. I think for INTP his or her Ti will be doing same to Ne-generated ideas and intuitive hunches but achieving much greater inner clarity than tertiary Ti of INFJs or auxiliary Ti of ENTPs. Ni to the contrary doesn't feel clear at all. I also noticed that Ti users may feel a need to make up their mind about something, to form and hold an opinion on things, but Ni just wants to encompass everything, all possibilities, and doesn't care to prioritize some things over others.

Way to distinguish Ne from Ni is that Ni inspects things that have already happened in past, seeing trends and patterns of the past, and then it flips these patterns and trends into the future. So it looks like a future oriented function but in reality it is very much past oriented, but just mirrors past into future. I also think Ni as if subtracts meaning from environment. It is very good at spotting things it deems meaningless. Ne is more about working with what you have in present to model something conceptually new out of it. Ne to the contrary of Ni seems to just pick up things in environment and create meaning for them rather than subtracting meaning. So then if you know which propensities you have in your thinking then you can figure out whether you use Ni or Ne.
I am also currently wondering whether I am an INTP or INFJ, and the bolded points resonate very well with me.

What you describe about how your use of Ti and Ni intermingle sounds very, very much something I commonly do. I tend to come up with conclusions much much faster than I can coherently articulate them, but I've never felt comfortable about giving weight to intuitive "hunches" in and of themselves. Most of my understandings have been constructed by way of looking backwards at what previously happened and attempt to see how it all fits together, rather than a forward-moving constructive process from working with what is at hand. I've long rejected the idea being an Ni- "user" based on most descriptions of it I've read, but am realizing (like many people) that my understanding of Ne and Ni is very wonky.

I may be misinterpeting (again) here, but I am also the type who certainly doen't need to make up my mind on something (though I had previously associated this with Ne). I don't have to have clearly defined viewpoint XY or fit category ABC, because to do that would seem to ignore the fact that there is an entire cosmos out there of information that I don't have, and that nobody has, and that what little information that does exist tends to be further diluted by the biases and practical limitations of those finding and dissemninating it.

(Indeed, it's one of the reasons why I reject rigid systems of labeling and categorization. They seem arbitrary, limited by the information that was "gatherable" at that time. I could hold l viewpoint XYZ based on all of what I currently know NOW, but that doesn't mean I won't find something else tomorrow that will challenge what I previously thought was correct. I am less inclined to do such things, knowing in the past that I thought one thing was right based on what was available at the time, then seeing a pattern of that "definite" view changing with availability of information led me to distrust doing such a thing... )
 

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I am also currently wondering whether I am an INTP or INFJ, and the bolded points resonate very well with me.

What you describe about how your use of Ti and Ni intermingle sounds very, very much something I commonly do. I tend to come up with conclusions much much faster than I can coherently articulate them, but I've never felt comfortable about giving weight to intuitive "hunches" in and of themselves. Most of my understandings have been constructed by way of looking backwards at what previously happened and attempt to see how it all fits together, rather than a forward-moving constructive process from working with what is at hand. I've long rejected the idea being an Ni- "user" based on most descriptions of it I've read, but am realizing (like many people) that my understanding of Ne and Ni is very wonky.

I may be misinterpeting (again) here, but I am also the type who certainly doen't need to make up my mind on something (though I had previously associated this with Ne). I don't have to have clearly defined viewpoint XY or fit category ABC, because to do that would seem to ignore the fact that there is an entire cosmos out there of information that I don't have, and that nobody has, and that what little information that does exist tends to be further diluted by the biases and practical limitations of those finding and dissemninating it.

(Indeed, it's one of the reasons why I reject rigid systems of labeling and categorization. They seem arbitrary, limited by the information that was "gatherable" at that time. I could hold l viewpoint XYZ based on all of what I currently know NOW, but that doesn't mean I won't find something else tomorrow that will challenge what I previously thought was correct. I am less inclined to do such things, knowing in the past that I thought one thing was right based on what was available at the time, then seeing a pattern of that "definite" view changing with availability of information led me to distrust doing such a thing... )

I actually relate a lot to your description. I find Dom-Ti actually rather too precise about thought for me. Ni is organised/meaningful chaos, Ti seems organised order, more of a fan of the rigid (perfect!) systems. They also seem to want a more organised mind then me, when I want a more organised outside world - though not perfectly, being N. And I've never felt myself all that future-oriented - more that time was not a relevant reference point. Info all comes from past, though. I don't trust hunches alone either, but I don't so much experience them as hunches or gut feelings, not the way INFJs describe it. It's just...ideas, patterns. Don't know all the details that go into them, but not knowing that doesn't necessarily feel like a hunch.

I find I do want to make up my mind on things - but it is never that strict a decision. It is more like a foothold, a stopping place for my thought that I can then reevealuate later. It's more that I cannot leave it up in the air, not that I necessarily believe a conclusion - so yes, like you, I hold a viewpoint based on what I currently know, but don't hold it as truth. Without that viewpoint I remember nothing. Ps tend to be a bit mroe anal about defining beliefs and ideas than Js - Js tend to be more anal about the outside world.

So Ni sounds like a possibility. fwiw
 

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I suggest you try and work out whether you use Ne or Ni (easier said than done, for me at least) to decide whether you're NFJ or NTP and if you decide NTP don't discount being an E - they are very introverted for extroverts and many of them have similar struggles being sociable.
I simply don't buy the idea that ENTPs are "introverted extraverts". There's simply no reason for them to be any more introverted than any other extravert. My (anecdotal) experience is that ENTPs generally have a tendency to make new friends quickly and tire of the old ones quickly as well. I think people confuse their lack of desire to have many long-term connections with introversion.
 

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I simply don't buy the idea that ENTPs are "introverted extraverts". There's simply no reason for them to be any more introverted than any other extravert. My (anecdotal) experience is that ENTPs generally have a tendency to make new friends quickly and tire of the old ones quickly as well. I think people confuse their lack of desire to have many long-term connections with introversion.
I've met several ENTPs who claimed this. Also ENFPs. Mostly they just disliked people, or got worn out by negative interactions with them and thought it was the same thing as introversion. Which it isn't. And even their 'introverted' activities like blogging would not only have an audience, usually, but be directed at an audience - even an audience of potential scholars down the line, or whatever. They always needed almost the concept of someone there, watching, connecting, an outward focus - but would sometimes prefer an imaginary one to real people. This does not remotely strike me as introverted, being an actual introvert, but may perhaps seem so to extraverts.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am also currently wondering whether I am an INTP or INFJ, and the bolded points resonate very well with me.

What you describe about how your use of Ti and Ni intermingle sounds very, very much something I commonly do. I tend to come up with conclusions much much faster than I can coherently articulate them, but I've never felt comfortable about giving weight to intuitive "hunches" in and of themselves. Most of my understandings have been constructed by way of looking backwards at what previously happened and attempt to see how it all fits together, rather than a forward-moving constructive process from working with what is at hand. I've long rejected the idea being an Ni- "user" based on most descriptions of it I've read, but am realizing (like many people) that my understanding of Ne and Ni is very wonky.

I may be misinterpeting (again) here, but I am also the type who certainly doen't need to make up my mind on something (though I had previously associated this with Ne). I don't have to have clearly defined viewpoint XY or fit category ABC, because to do that would seem to ignore the fact that there is an entire cosmos out there of information that I don't have, and that nobody has, and that what little information that does exist tends to be further diluted by the biases and practical limitations of those finding and dissemninating it.

(Indeed, it's one of the reasons why I reject rigid systems of labeling and categorization. They seem arbitrary, limited by the information that was "gatherable" at that time. I could hold l viewpoint XYZ based on all of what I currently know NOW, but that doesn't mean I won't find something else tomorrow that will challenge what I previously thought was correct. I am less inclined to do such things, knowing in the past that I thought one thing was right based on what was available at the time, then seeing a pattern of that "definite" view changing with availability of information led me to distrust doing such a thing... )
Yeah this is definitely Ti + Ne. I find that I've been wrong on virtually everything I've ever believed, and my current rigid systems are probably gonna go in the same direction. But I don't think there's anything wrong with having rigid systems and precise categories as long as you remember to actively go about disproving them so that you can build better ones in their place.
 

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Yeah this is definitely Ti + Ne. I find that I've been wrong on virtually everything I've ever believed, and my current rigid systems are probably gonna go in the same direction. But I don't think there's anything wrong with having rigid systems and precise categories as long as you remember to actively go about disproving them so that you can build better ones in their place.
If that was Ti Ne than I must be an INTP because the way he describe that was spot on for me.
 

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Possibly the easiest thing to do is try differentiating Ni from Ne. In general, extraverted perception (Ne) will observe a situation and move the person to take part in the situation or use the situation to move closer to other people. Introverted perception will move a person to differentiate themselves from the situation or other people.

Lenore Thomson gives a pretty good example. I'll paraphrase (and include S functions as well just for comparison):

Let's say we are going to the beach. Here's how the 4 different perceiving functions would handle the situation:

  • Se would enjoy the sun, the sand, and would play in the water.
  • Si would bring along a favorite book and a watch to make sure you get home on time.
  • Ne would try to fit the current context into the larger context. You might notice that someone is playing music we really like. Hey, that reminds you... maybe you should go to a bar after this. You're sure there are plenty around. Let's go find someone to ask!
  • Someone using Ni might wonder why people make so much effort to get tans. Before the Industrial Revolution, tans signified someone was lower class. But afterwards, lower class people worked in factories and pale skin came to mean that you were lower class. Neither of those are relevant today, so why do people like tanning? You dare not discuss this with your friends because they'd just think you're weird.
If I were to add Ti to the list (even though it isn't a Perceiving function), it might be something like this:

  • So if the beach closes at 7 PM, what time does the beach officially become closed? We know that at 6:59 PM the beach is open and that at 7:01 PM the beach is closed. But what about 7:00 PM itself? Is that considered open time or closed time? It's probably that the beach is open at 7:00:00 PM and closed at 7:00:01 PM. If you think about it, "closing" isn't really an action that takes time. It's an arbitrary point in time. In fact, you could probably break it down into milli or nanoseconds if you wanted to. Just like with Ni, you don't discuss this with your friends because they'll think you're weird. That should go without saying.
So if I were to summarize the difference, I'd say that Ni tends to detach itself while observing and Ti tends to detach itself while analyzing.
 

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@vel

I was agreeing with you in everything you said until up to this point:

Way to distinguish Ne from Ni is that Ni inspects things that have already happened in past, seeing trends and patterns of the past, and then it flips these patterns and trends into the future. So it looks like a future oriented function but in reality it is very much past oriented, but just mirrors past into future.
What do you mean that Ni inspects things from the past and then flips it into the future? I'll be honest, I'm usually oblivious to any past trends or patterns which seems more of the realm of Si rather than Ni.

Could you elaborate this detail further?

Thanks
 

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@vel

I was agreeing with you in everything you said until up to this point:



What do you mean that Ni inspects things from the past and then flips it into the future? I'll be honest, I'm usually oblivious to any past trends or patterns which seems more of the realm of Si rather than Ni.

Could you elaborate this detail further?

Thanks
From what I've seen, Ni does the same thing while being much less concrete about it. It tends to think in terms of grand, established institutions like religion or education or government rather than specific sensations.

I have an INTJ friend who spent maybe 30 minutes explaining how school's purpose is indoctrinate people and socialize them. I've heard this many, many times from ITPs with the implication being "this needs to change!" But with this INTJ, it was different. It was almost like he was sharing some new discovery he had just made rather than being a call to action. It's like how I might say "Did you know that 98% of the earth's water is salt water? Isn't that crazy?!" Whereas he was saying "Did you know that school is an institution designed to indoctrinate and socialize people? Isn't that crazy?!"
 

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From what I've seen, Ni does the same thing while being much less concrete about it. It tends to think in terms of grand, established institutions like religion or education or government rather than specific sensations.

I have an INTJ friend who spent maybe 30 minutes explaining how school's purpose is indoctrinate people and socialize them. I've heard this many, many times from ITPs with the implication being "this needs to change!" But with this INTJ, it was different. It was almost like he was sharing some new discovery he had just made rather than being a call to action. It's like how I might say "Did you know that 98% of the earth's water is salt water? Isn't that crazy?!" Whereas he was saying "Did you know that school is an institution designed to indoctrinate and socialize people? Isn't that crazy?!"
I'm still not seeing how Ni is past-oriented. In my experience my intuition just pops out of nowhere with no link to the past or the future. It's an instant realization of the underlying meanings of the unobserved or the untold. It's like you say "I'm happy" and I hear that as "I'm miserable". My mind begins creating various perspectives of what's readily apparent in the surface. It's a transcendence of perception sort to speak. But I still don't rely on any past reference of where I got my information, it just...happens lol
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is beginning to sound more like Ne than Ni...
You're not wrong, that statement could also apply to Ne or even Se as well. It just depends on how you're getting your information. Ne would look at the context of the situation and get clues from the external environment to conclude that the person is not really "happy" but "miserable.

For the sake of the argument, lets assume that the person who said "I'm happy" looks happy and nothing in the immediate context implies otherwise. In this situation to say that the person is feeling "miserable" when he just said that he is happy would be a bit of a leap of logic. Ni is all about leaps of logic since it's getting its information from some unconscious region of the brain where its user has no idea of where that realization came from, but yet, that feeling is there that he is not really happy.

How did he come to that realization? Who knows. That's when you need a judging function to figure out the rest.
 

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I'm still not seeing how Ni is past-oriented. In my experience my intuition just pops out of nowhere with no link to the past or the future.
It doesn't pop up out of nowhere. It uses all the information you have observed in the past to come up with the conclusion i.e. it references memory of the past.

It's an instant realization of the underlying meanings of the unobserved or the untold. It's like you say "I'm happy" and I hear that as "I'm miserable". My mind begins creating various perspectives of what's readily apparent in the surface. It's a transcendence of perception sort to speak. But I still don't rely on any past reference of where I got my information, it just...happens lol
You're describing an instance of a new event here. So in this case saying "I'm happy" is a new event you have not encountered before. So it flips perspectives to allow to maximum amount of connections from this event to several others. Hypothetical scenario: at the same time that I said this, you might see me flipping a pencil in my hand as I am telling you this, and you notice that I am wearing a scarf which you know isn't typical for me. Then the next time same scenario happens you will "just know" that I am unhappy without me telling you this if you notice same 'set' of events - pencil + skarf - and it will click in your mind that something is wrong. To be able to relate a maximum amount of such seemingly unrelated things your mind cannot make a internal judgement on which perspective is best, but instead it needs to perceive the whole picture where everything is taken to be interconnected with everything else and all perspectives are possible.

You might also find yourself spending a good deal of time ruminating over the things that have happened, going about them in your head as you are daydreaming. The key here being "have happened" so it is things from past. From my interaction with Ne and Se dominant personalities I see that they actually don't engage in such prolonged ruminations of what has occurred and what they have observed. To the contrary most of their mind's time and energy is turned to the present moment and possibilities of the present moment - what can be created out of it or what course of action can be taken. In this sense I feel that they are always trying to live as if ahead of themselves.

As far as what Ni has to do with the past I have come to see it as basically something that has heavy influence on what sort of memories you will store, as it is a perceiving introverted function. It acts like a filter to what you will retain and remember after observing new events happen or may be even occasionaly participating in them (Se). Then when you see something similar occur your mind will put forward that memory that really consists of a very extensive spiderweb of connections. So you observe one thing and then the connection is made to something you remember from past, you remember how it was and that's when the "aha" moment hits. And that is how you "just know" what is going to happen, because you have actually observed something similar in past and your mind instantly drew the connections to those memories. It gets more complicated than that actually - it also synthesizes several of these memories together such that it may actually reference several different past scenarios and pull piece from those.

That's at least how I sense it working in myself. I had a sense that perceiving functions are somehow related to our perception of time and then I realized that Ni function working inside my head is actually feeding into what sort of memories I store. Then I realized that Ni is actually tied to my perception of the past.
 

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Ni does use the past to make predictions. If it didn't, it would have horrible accuracy. It actually seems not all that different from what I understand Si to be, maybe a bit more generalized. I think a lot of misunderstanding of introverted intuition comes from comparing too closely to extraverted intuition. Both introverted perceiving functions are more like each other, and the same goes for the extraverted perceiving functions. I think that's mostly true for the judging functions as well, but that's another topic.

As far as Ti goes, I don't really know, I'm all Te. Whatever I know of Ti is mostly from research and not my own usage.
 
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