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MOTM June 2010
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am not a golf fan, but we all know Tiger Woods and his personal life being plastered in the media for months now. Although I remain highly suspect of typing others, it has been speculated that Tiger Woods is ISTP, on websites such as this. The theory of what triggers grip episodes remains questionable, but I have always proposed it starts with the user violating a core value of the inferior function (4th). As a result the user goes into a grip and theoretically takes on negative behavior of their shadow function.

If Tiger Woods is ISTP as suggested, Fe would be his inferior function. His having the affairs directly violates the core values of Fe-dom as the guardian of our morals and values toward other people and what is expected as common decency. His performance as a golfer has been at best lackluster, but now is worsening. Tiger Woods was to have said of his poor performance at Bridgestone this week, was due to a lack of practice because he was spending time and more focus on his children and family. This is commendable, but shows a clear priority change for Tiger Woods. Based on his priority, he appears to be focusing on what may be considered ESTJ-ish (or at least SJ) matters. As we know ESTJ is the shadow type of ISTP.

Are we witnessing in Tiger Woods, how an ISTP may behave in a full blown “in the grip” episode? Has anyone witnessed what triggered other types to go into the grip and whether they became bad replicas of their shadow types? I have edited my final statement, but folks we know that his behavior was not conducive to what we expect, so try to refrain from focusing on whether his behavior was inappropriate and more on how this is type related.
 

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I thought ENFJ was the shadow type of an ISTP? If he's supposed to be acting like an ESTJ. an ESTJ doesn't use much Fe? Please explain?

As an ISTJ, I can get in the grip of Ne when I get really stressed out. Ne comes out as me seeing all the possibilities where things can possibly go wrong, and I start catastrophizing and thing nothing is going to work out.. I think the last time I got stressed out really bad for a long period of time, I really started behaving like a really negative form of an ENFP. E came from me complaining about things, I acted more like a P because I kind of started rationalizing not getting my work done, and I was definitely acting like an F and using an insane amoutn of Fi (whether things were inaccordance with my values). I aslo think I was using more N than normal, though I wouldn't know what N would look like.
 

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MOTM June 2010
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Discussion Starter #3
I thought ENFJ was the shadow type of an ISTP? If he's supposed to be acting like an ESTJ. an ESTJ doesn't use much Fe? Please explain?

As an ISTJ, I can get in the grip of Ne when I get really stressed out. Ne comes out as me seeing all the possibilities where things can possibly go wrong, and I start catastrophizing and thing nothing is going to work out.. I think the last time I got stressed out really bad for a long period of time, I really started behaving like a really negative form of an ENFP. E came from me complaining about things, I acted more like a P because I kind of started rationalizing not getting my work done, and I was definitely acting like an F and using an insane amoutn of Fi (whether things were inaccordance with my values). I aslo think I was using more N than normal, though I wouldn't know what N would look like.
ENFJ is the opposite of ISTP (Fe-Ni-Se-Ti and vice-versa). Shadow types are something entirely different based on John Beebe and Linda V. Berens' work, as shown at the bottom of this page. All SJs prize the traditional core values in how we must behave as indicated from the synopsis of that temperament:
The core needs are for group membership and responsibility. They need to know they are doing the responsible thing. They value stability, security, and a sense of community. They trust hierarchy and authority and may be surprised when others go against these social structures. People of this temperament prefer cooperative actions with a focus on standards and norms. Their orientation is to their past experiences, and they like things sequenced and structured. They tend to look for the practical applications of what they are learning.
. Fe rules the moral values, but as Jung explains Te dominant types can just as well focus on things that most believe would be of a Fe quality:
Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking it may equally well be a purely ideal thinking, if, for instance, it can be shown that the ideas with which it is engaged are to a great extent borrowed from without, i.e. are transmitted by tradition and education…..

If tolerance for the sick, the suffering, or the deranged should chance to be an ingredient in the formula, special provisions will be devised for humane societies, hospitals, prisons, colonies, etc., or at least extensive plans for such projects. For the actual execution of these schemes the motives of justice and truth do not, as a rule, suffice; still devolve upon real Christian charity, which “I” do with feeling than with any intellectual 'One really should' or “I” must figure largely in this program. If the formula is wide enough, it may play a very useful rôle in social life, with a reformer or a ventilator of public wrongs or a purifier of the public conscience, or as the propagator of important innovations. But the more rigid the formula, the more, does he develop into a grumbler, a crafty reasoner, and a self-righteous critic, who would like to impress both himself and others into one schema.
Fe however does take others feelings into consideration. In this case, either the media’s disgust triggered the episode or his wife and close family members created the episode. Just my thoughts but it was his violation of that core value which prompted the shadow functions to surface,
 

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Interesting, and the terminology is familiar, as I'm in the middle of reading Was That Really Me? It discusses stress placing us "in the grip" of our inferior function. Anyway, so, one might say, that Tiger was having an "attack of conscience", assuming the sincerity of his actions. I'm curious, what would differentiate an Fe "attack of conscience" from an Fi one? Is it Fe oriented, because he actually adapted his actions (objective, external orientation)? Would someone under the grip of Fi, perhaps, profusely apologize for their "immoral" behaviors, and for hurting another by violating the ethical standards, they were raised with and should have known to hold to?
 

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MOTM June 2010
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Discussion Starter #5
Interesting, and the terminology is familiar, as I'm in the middle of reading Was That Really Me? It discusses stress placing us "in the grip" of our inferior function. Anyway, so, one might say, that Tiger was having an "attack of conscience", assuming the sincerity of his actions. I'm curious, what would differentiate an Fe "attack of conscience" from an Fi one? Is it Fe oriented, because he actually adapted his actions (objective, external orientation)?
Good points Wolf. Remember this is just my opinion and thought, but what triggered Tiger’s grip episode was because he failed to consider others (namely his wife and kids) including his loyal followers that unfortunately had put him on a pedestal. His behavior contradicted acceptable social behavior that is key for Fe users. Granted all Ti dominant types can and do consider the needs of others, but where we misjudged is in knowing or forgetting what is important to himself. This may have been the fact that he allowed the need of his affairs to dictate what was important to him. The question has to be whether it would have affected him had the media not found out about the matter.
Would someone under the grip of Fi, perhaps, profusely apologize for their "immoral" behaviors, and for hurting another by violating the ethical standards, they were raised with and should have known to hold to?
Where ITPs fail to follow the principles of good behavior dictated by society, ETJs then may forget to evaluate importance and maintaining congruence. Instead of an external trigger, ETJs may have a grip experience from comprising their existing values, i.e. allowing people to be affected by the consequences of their actions like the oil spill episode. For all Fi users, actions often speak louder than words. Actions taken that conflict with internal values may result in ETJs going into the grip and behaving like their ITP shadow types.
 

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Good points Wolf. Remember this is just my opinion and thought, but what triggered Tiger’s grip episode was because he failed to consider others (namely his wife and kids) including his loyal followers that unfortunately had put him on a pedestal. His behavior contradicted acceptable social behavior that is key for Fe users. Granted all Ti dominant types can and do consider the needs of others, but where we misjudged is in knowing or forgetting what is important to himself. This may have been the fact that he allowed the need of his affairs to dictate what was important to him. The question has to be whether it would have affected him had the media not found out about the matter.
True, and I do wonder if he would have altered his behaviors, had they only came to the attention of his family. Then again, with him being a celebrity, it almost just stands to reason, that, if he did alter his behavior, the media would have considered something fishy and would have went snooping and found out what was up, anyway. So, either way, I suppose it's commendable, no matter what the catalyst for change, so long as the change, itself, is sincere.

Where ITPs fail to follow the principles of good behavior dictated by society, ETJs then may forget to evaluate importance and maintaining congruence. Instead of an external trigger, ETJs may have a grip experience from comprising their existing values, i.e. allowing people to be affected by the consequences of their actions like the oil spill episode. For all Fi users, actions often speak louder than words. Actions taken that conflict with internal values may result in ETJs going into the grip and behaving like their ITP shadow types.
Hmmm... Well, I've worked out a few things, since last we talked. For one, I'm most definitively a thinker type. All thinker types have their ethical function in the inferior. The question becomes, oddly enough, IxTP or ExTJ. Your example using Tiger, strikes a chord with me. I just remain uncertain, whether I sink into the grip of Fe or Fi.

I can think of a few instances, where I was almost assuredly "in the grip". My actions caused a riff in a relationship, that was very special to me. Thing was, I was blissfully unaware of this, until I realized, that she was making a conscious effort to ignore me. When I discovered, that she was upset with me, I would "lose it" or go "into the grip". I handled it by having an "attack of conscience", like Tiger, here. However, my actions were a bit different from his. Firstly, the conditions/terms of extreme stress, were clearly visible. Until she would talk to me, I would not/could not sleep or eat. All I did was walk around, smoking three packs a day, and crying like a two year old. I became an overly emotional mess. Very untypical behavior, for me, as I'm normally very controlled and inexpressive. Next, I would apologize to her, profusely and repetitively, seeking to restore harmony and put us back on good grounds. I would really, really go overboard with it, though. I would look back on our entire relationship, and be completely overcome with guilt, grief, and shame, for the consequences of my actions, those on our relationship and those on her life. I would look back on advice I had given her, that had gotten her in trouble or instances where I condoned her "unethical" behavior, which, in that situation, I considered to be playing a part in her coming to harm. I would not quit apologizing, beating myself up, or feeling absolutely horrid, until she would talk to me, again. When she would come back around, she would laugh, wonder what the hell had come over me, and even get a bit frustrated with me. She would say something like, "I know you're sorry! Quit apologizing! I heard you the first time. If not, I surely heard you the thousandth! We're good. I promise! Let it go! Quit beating yourself up!" However, unlike Tiger, I never altered the behaviors. I internalized the blame. I took it out on myself. And I never made it past the apologizing, emotional state. I was upset over violating my own ethical standards. And I sought out to restore harmony and balance, but only through apologizing, talking it out, and earning forgiveness, with the sincerity of my emotional expression. The focus was very subjective. What I had done wrong. How I considered my actions wrong, no matter who else thought they were. Even when she would say, that I was being irrational and I hadn't done "wrong", in that sense, I wouldn't listen or let go of it. How I needed to restore balance and harmony and make amends. My focus was not actually on changing my behaviors, but rather on showing her, through the sincerity and depth of my emotional expression, that I was truly, "from the bottom of my heart" sorry. I only cared, that she knew I was sorry for doing her (what I considered) "wrong". Am I being incorrect, in my thinking, that my actions were more indicative of Fi, here?

It would be very odd, to think of myself, being an ExTJ. Then again, I suppose it would make more logical sense, that an ExTJ would be driven to neurosis by a life of solitude and submission.
 
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