[SweetAsChocolate]

Hello beautiful ISTJs,

I want to get to know the mindset and heart of an ISTJ. Normaly would i watch how he is behaving and reacting to people and situations and especially will i ask a lot of questions so i can have a lot of conversations. ( What i do have, he keeps on talking and listening when i present a new idea or thought) BUT, i tent to ask his opinion about stuff I AM interested in. When i ask, he answers, thats good i guess, But how can i ask so he will speak and speak about things he cares for? And what kind of questions would you prefer to answer? Because as an ENTP do i ask general questions and out of the box thinking and topics. But i dont know which areas ISTJs like and how specific to ask whitout getting an yes/No answer?

I do want to know his heart, and not just love his type (ISTJ), but i do keep on falling back on my extrovertness and keep on talking....

 

[jcal]

Just straight out ask him... What are your interests? What are your hobbies? What do you like to read? What movies do you like? ...etc., etc. We're all different... there is no universal ISTJ likes/cares topic. Chances are the initial answer might be a very short factual response to your inquiry, but if you show further interest he probably will expand on things once he determines your interest is genuine.

You might want to avoid topic introductions that begin with "How do you feel about...?" Maybe it's semantics, but "What do you think about...?" or "What would you do if...?" questions usually sit much better with us.

Regarding your domination of the talking... that's usually OK with us. I never mind when somebody else drives the conversation. Remember, though... periods of silence are not necessarily a bad thing! ISTJs often are quick-minded but slow mouthed... we can tend to take our time formulating and rehearsing our responses (we like to make sure we are saying EXACTLY what we intend to say) rather than answering spontaneously, so being "pressured" to keep up with a "chatterbox" extrovert (or worse, a room full of them) can be quite taxing. By far, it's the part that exhausts me the most in social situations. I can do it for a while but I really hit a hard wall after a while, after which I'll find any/every excuse to get away, even if just temporarily, because my brain gets so fried from it.

 

[Sela]

words

^ Everything he said. I especially like the part about asking about likes/interests. Had an interesting chat with a guy at the pub the other night (not the ESFP that I mentioned in another post). We both like the same type of music and he asked me if I actually played any instruments. I've been formally trained on three, but am self-taught on about a half-dozen more, and our conversation delved into that, reading sheet music vs. playing by ear, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

My ISTJ is know already talking more freely and sharing what he is working at. Thats nice. And when i say: " Sorry for talking to long now with you and taking your time, you can keep working on your project now. i will go" He was today like, no you are not taking/wasting my time.(But i always think he is so polite of course he wont say yes your are waisting my time) But today i got a new question:
How long does it normaly take before you trust a person to open up about your fears and hopes? With other types is it often very easy to get a heart to heart conversation. But with him is it way harder. And i fear to step over his boundaries of privacy. But to connect deeply you have to open up, Yes? And if i cant have a deep level, then i wont go on with this into a romantic level.
Ah How important is humor for you guys? I feel a very different humor coming of of him then mine and that worries me.
oh man i am always worrying so much.

 

[Sela]

words

Take me quite a while to open up to anyone, romantic interest or otherwise. Six months to a year for most things, and to this day there are still things I haven't shared with my best friend (and we've been friends for like five years now). Those things are not relevant - although if that changes, then it's entirely possible that I will share those things if/when that time comes.

Humor is a plus, but most people don't "get" mine. It's usually very dry and goes over most people's heads because they think I'm being serious.

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

words

Could you maybe explain WHY it takes so long for an ISTJ to decide for a serious love relationship. And what would make it easier. Could the other someone do or never do so it is more helpful?

Another question: Do you analyse why you do things? I often ask: Why did you do that, what was your intention? And often do i get the answer: I forgot, i dont know anymore... . is that normal? Because i ALWAYS analyse why i do what i do and what my goal was with that.

 

[jcal]

Could you maybe explain WHY it takes so long for an ISTJ to decide for a serious love relationship. And what would make it easier. Could the other someone do or never do so it is more helpful?

We're absolutely terrible at interpreting subtle cues that others use (that probably don't seem so subtle to the other party). Our inferior Ne often notices *something*, but we have so little trust in our Ne that we refuse to act on it until more substantive corroborating evidence comes our way.

It's not at all uncommon for an ISTJ to "play dumb" and pretend that nothing has happened at all when this occurs. We learn to do this early on after just a few misses in our interpretation of more subtle cues. Better to ignore them than make incorrect assumptions. This process can really slow down relationship building.

The best advice I can give is to be straightforward and direct so there is no doubt in his mind what you mean, because he will act as if nothing is happening without the direct evidence.

Another question: Do you analyse why you do things? I often ask: Why did you do that, what was your intention? And often do i get the answer: I forgot, i dont know anymore... . is that normal? Because i ALWAYS analyse why i do what i do and what my goal was with that.

Yes, I analyze everything I do in great depth... *BEFORE* I do it. Afterwards... not so much (unless something has gone wrong and there's a postmortem lesson to be learned). By the time you ask "Why did you do that?", he's moved on and is probably deeply focused on analyzing his next decision to be made or problem to be solved.

It would not be impossible to reconstruct the details that went into the decision matrix he had previously built, but it would take time to do so and require abandonment of his current focus. If you were to ask me a question like that, at the moment you asked it I truly and honestly would be unable to answer it spontaneously... I literally would not know the answer unless I took the time to reconstruct all of the details.

 

[Sela]

We're absolutely terrible at interpreting subtle cues that others use (that probably don't seem so subtle to the other party). Our inferior Ne often notices *something*, but we have so little trust in our Ne that we refuse to act on it until more substantive corroborating evidence comes our way.

It's not at all uncommon for an ISTJ to "play dumb" and pretend that nothing has happened at all when this occurs. We learn to do this early on after just a few misses in our interpretation of more subtle cues. Better to ignore them than make incorrect assumptions. This process can really slow down relationship building.

The best advice I can give is to be straightforward and direct so there is no doubt in his mind what you mean, because he will act as if nothing is happening without the direct evidence.



Yes, I analyze everything I do in great depth... *BEFORE* I do it. Afterwards... not so much (unless something has gone wrong and there's a postmortem lesson to be learned). By the time you ask "Why did you do that?", he's moved on and is probably deeply focused on analyzing his next decision to be made or problem to be solved.

It would not be impossible to reconstruct the details that went into the decision matrix he had previously built, but it would take time to do so and require abandonment of his current focus. If you were to ask me a question like that, at the moment you asked it I truly and honestly would be unable to answer it spontaneously... I literally would not know the answer unless I took the time to reconstruct all of the details.

^^ This. So many missed opportunities. Can't even begin to say how many times AFTER the fact I was told by friends "they were crazy about you, how could you not have noticed?!" Well... I DID notice something MAY have been different, but I didn't trust it and just chalked it up to friendliness, etc.

 

[jcal]

So many missed opportunities. Can't even begin to say how many times AFTER the fact I was told by friends "they were crazy about you, how could you not have noticed?!" Well... I DID notice something MAY have been different, but I didn't trust it and just chalked it up to friendliness, etc.

The sad story of my high school life... there were several girls that I learned (some directly, some indirectly) about their interest in me only AFTER I was engaged and/or married.

Ah, yes... missed opportunities.:frustrating:

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

words

I for my part feel like i am very obvious. especially when the girls are beginning to ask if i am into him. I am always like a butterfly around him. And i try hard to be not to much near, because he is only reacting not indicating. I do though totally understand your Ne. Everything can mean everything unless it is said and then you REALLY know. And guys i wish so very much to go to him and just tell him, that i like him. BUT: This is the one point where i am old fashioned. For me is it very important that he is indicating the first step. Its important for me to see that i am worth the risk!
When i broke up with my last boyfriend (it was a very very short period, around 2 weeks) was one of the reasons that i realized, that the ISTJ is the one whom i am in love with and that this short relationship was just an escape from my pain. Well when i was talking with my ISTJ about this i was telling him a few reasons why it didnt work out. And one of them is that i really ever have fallen in love with the silent guy more calm guy. He was like: Yeah that makes sense. ( he even said that he knew around what time it must have happened and he was right, i was very surprised that he felt that, because i was more happy about the break up then sad) Am i not being obvious? I know I know the faster way would be to just tell him, but i cant, it would brake something in me.
So do i have options to how make it easier for him to know that i like him, but without pressuring him?

 

[Sela]

how make it easier for him to know that i like him, but without pressuring him?

You: Hey! Let's go get coffee at X place Saturday at 2pm.
Him: /checks calendar, nothing there/ OK, I'll meet you there.
Him: /checks calendar, an event there, but not contingent upon him being there/ OK, I'll meet you there.
Him: /checks calendar, an pre-planned event with relatives and/or friends/ I've already committed to plans. 5pm that same day?

^^ All of these indicate at least some interest on his part.

Him: /doesn't check calendar/ Sorry, I can't. /No explanation, no shifting of plans, no counter-offer = no interest/

Easy and low-pressure on your part.

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

You: Hey! Let's go get coffee at X place Saturday at 2pm.
Him: /checks calendar, nothing there/ OK, I'll meet you there.
Him: /checks calendar, an event there, but not contingent upon him being there/ OK, I'll meet you there.
Him: /checks calendar, an pre-planned event with relatives and/or friends/ I've already committed to plans. 5pm that same day?

^^ All of these indicate at least some interest on his part.

Him: /doesn't check calendar/ Sorry, I can't. /No explanation, no shifting of plans, no counter-offer = no interest/

Easy and low-pressure on your part.

I asked him to show me some chords on the piano on saturday, and he has time and is willing. Thats good i guess. But i think you guys are so damned polite and helpful, that this doesnt make me feel like i am someone more of his intresst. But well, i guess i will wait some more months and pray to god, that he will move on his own. I am so tired. i will try to be consistent with my moods and friendlyness. And will try very hard to be not offended, by his slow, slow moving. And if all fails, then i may ask his friend to probe a bit and then will it be hopefully over. in one way or another. You guys are so different. My brother an ENTJ knew after 2 weeks the women whom he met will be his wife. And now they are married. My ISFJ brother moves quite fast as well.

Another question: Do people sometimes feel you as an ISTJ are judging them? Do you know what i mean?

 

[Sela]

Another question: Do people sometimes feel you as an ISTJ are judging them? Do you know what i mean?

My former hairdresser (she retired a couple of years back) did my hair for 20 years, but when she initially became my hairdresser, she was apparently afraid of me, and didn't confess this until many years later. She said this was because (according to her; she's an ISFP) I basically blew in there like a storm and told her exactly what I wanted and how I wanted it, and that intimidated her. She obviously found out that I'm not the "meanie" she thought I was after she got to know me - it's just that I know what I want and will communicate it with precision. Ironically, the only thing that I CAN'T communicate with precision is how I feel, especially toward someone I am developing feelings for... it's like kryptonite and/or the universe's most cruel joke I guess. -_-

 

[jcal]

I for my part feel like i am very obvious.

When it comes to reading social cues, what's obvious to you is probably not obvious at all to most ISTJs. It also strikes me that your ISTJ may believe he is being just as obvious about his interest in you and is just as confused and frustrated as you are. Almost every time someone like yourself posts a similar story about their ISTJ, I can't help but say to myself "He/she (the ISTJ) is so obviously interested, what aren't they seeing?"... but then I speak ISTJ, lol.

There's another angle to the glacially slow ISTJ relationship pace that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet (but has been discussed here in the past). We tend to take relationships... especially romantic ones... very seriously and tend to do most of our evaluation of potential partners while still "just friends" rather than doing the "test fit" in the early phases of a romantic relationship. The negative connotation usually associated with being "friend-zoned" seems ridiculous to most ISTJs, because the friend-zone is exactly where we like our romantic partners to come from.

Tying both points above together, the fact that your ISTJ continues to spend quality time with you, building on your friendship, is a sure sign of his interest... at least it is to me.

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

When it comes to reading social cues, what's obvious to you is probably not obvious at all to most ISTJs. It also strikes me that your ISTJ may believe he is being just as obvious about his interest in you and is just as confused and frustrated as you are. Almost every time someone like yourself posts a similar story about their ISTJ, I can't help but say to myself "He/she (the ISTJ) is so obviously interested, what aren't they seeing?"... but then I speak ISTJ, lol.

There's another angle to the glacially slow ISTJ relationship pace that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet (but has been discussed here in the past). We tend to take relationships... especially romantic ones... very seriously and tend to do most of our evaluation of potential partners while still "just friends" rather than doing the "test fit" in the early phases of a romantic relationship. The negative connotation usually associated with being "friend-zoned" seems ridiculous to most ISTJs, because the friend-zone is exactly where we like our romantic partners to come from.

Tying both points above together, the fact that your ISTJ continues to spend quality time with you, building on your friendship, is a sure sign of his interest... at least it is to me.

I totally get that you guys take the relationship serious, and that you like it way more to observe from a "friendship" point of view. But is it really that hard to just ask "How are you" "How was your day" that doesnt come up with me. Yesterday though did he ask what i was reading,while i was sitting at the couch. -I almost dropped my book. He asked me something! Today did he show me some chords on the piano, that was very helpful. but quite soon did he go to his friend. Why would he not want to spend more time with me ? How do you ISTJs behave while being in love? Not i am kinda interested in her . Is there a difference? For me, if a person is in love with another, he wants to be with her, looks at her often, takes any chance to be near her. And today i spoke with other girls about guys in our class who are more silent, and his name popped out of my mouth. But the others where like: Yes one year ago did he speak less but now very much sometimes very much! I was offended and sad, I would have loved to hear his mind ramble Why is he speaking with them a lot but with me is he just answering my questions, and sometimes do i try to be silent, but then is he silent too. Thats confusing. If you like me at least try to indicate some conversation, and if i am boring and annoying than dont help me or be nice. And if i keep already the conversation going, then dont go away because you wanna go to bed. Is your guys schedule so much more important then the person you are interested in?

Sorry guys that i keep asking the same again and again, i will soon stop.

 

[Sela]

Not sure. He could be on the fence. For me, it's so difficult to initiate conversation. On the other hand, my body language is usually the "tell". If I'm interested, I'll be watching them - a LOT. Of course, I try to do this on the sly. I also try to be sneaky and try to snag a seat next to them in a group. (This actually worked some time back, FWIW.) I make an effort to not cross my arms around them, and deliberately modify my body language to appear more "inviting". For me, that's huge, but my guess is that most people it flies right over their heads.

An absolute tell (at least for me) is if I'm touched. No recoil = you're golden.

 

[SweetAsChocolate]

Not sure. He could be on the fence. For me, it's so difficult to initiate conversation. On the other hand, my body language is usually the "tell". If I'm interested, I'll be watching them - a LOT. Of course, I try to do this on the sly. I also try to be sneaky and try to snag a seat next to them in a group. (This actually worked some time back, FWIW.) I make an effort to not cross my arms around them, and deliberately modify my body language to appear more "inviting". For me, that's huge, but my guess is that most people it flies right over their heads.

An absolute tell (at least for me) is if I'm touched. No recoil = you're golden.

Do you start to open up your body language/ trying to sit near after you decide to go for the relationship, or before in the friendship zone?

When i touch him casually like "oh your hands a very cold how can you play the piano?" or i grab his shoulder and press down and say "does that hurt?" he is then ok i guess. But 2 days ago, we studied and he had his ear phones on. And so to get his attention -> i stroked with one finger over his hand. And he suddenly got very stiff, looked just ahead. his reaction took me by surprise. I was not intending to provoke him. I overplayed it fast with my question and was not showing any signs of seeing his reaction. But i didnt know where i went wrong, or if he hates it or if it was just to much for him.

 

[jcal]

But 2 days ago, we studied and he had his ear phones on. And so to get his attention -> i
stroked with one finger over his hand. And he suddenly got very stiff, looked just ahead. his reaction took me by surprise. I was not intending to provoke him. I overplayed it fast with my question and was not showing any signs of seeing his reaction. But i didnt know where i went wrong, or if he hates it or if it was just to much for him.

You're over-analyzing... looking for something that isn't there!

I really don't think that you "provoked" him, or that his reaction was in any way personally directed at you. All that happened was that you surprised him while he was concentrating on something else. Our concentration levels tend to be very high and quite narrowly focused, and it usually takes a while to break that focus when something/someone attempts to interrupt it. For me, it's like waking up and not having a clue where you are, how you got there or what's going on around you. His reaction is EXACTLY what you would have gotten from me if I was concentrating on something like he was and you did that to me. The (lack of) reaction has nothing to do with whether the interruption ultimately was a welcomed one... it just takes a finite amount of time to re-acclimate and "load the right database" for the new situation.

If there's one thing I really dislike about myself, it's this inability to instantaneously "switch gears". The time required to refocus is not often very long, but it's enough to create awkward moments in both social and work situations. I think that most introverts "suffer" from this to some extent, but ISTJs (and me in particular) seem to be worse in this regard.

 

[Sela]

Do you start to open up your body language/ trying to sit near after you decide to go for the relationship, or before in the friendship zone?

It would be after. The friendship zone is just that, unless I've known you like... forever. There's one ESFP in particular that I practically grew up with; we almost had a thing going, and I got friendzoned. It didn't work out for him, but after we got past the awkwardness of me being friendzoned, we've become close again. Just friends now, but we're comfortable touching each other (but then again, we've known each other 35 years or so). We do "couple" type things at the rink (moves that require two people) for instance.. that may require holding hands or something similar. It's not an issue because we've known each other forever.

HOWEVER... "regular" friends that I've known for less time? Nope. If you're really lucky and I've known you between 1-5 years and initiate a hug or something like that, I'll reciprocate without recoiling, but I never initiate.

The "go for it" stage is a little different; I've been known to initiate a slight touch to the arm, etc. to "make a point" or "get their attention", but even then that's about as far as it goes until/unless I see that it's going somewhere, which is almost always never ;-)

 

[Yardiff Bey]

An absolute tell (at least for me) is if I'm touched. No recoil = you're golden.

^^ We definitely do not like being touched out of the blue, especially by people we don't know or have only just met.

Anecdote from tonight at the grocery store: A girl reached out to sorta-touch me, kind of to slap my arm or the like. Sorta friendly-like, as some girls will do. I twitched and stepped away before she got close enough.

Just a note regarding asking him questions: try not to sound like a job interview. Very off-putting.