Personality Cafe banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Something I'll always notice with INFPs, and is what makes me grateful with the way INFJs can control this, is how our empathy and compassion can sometimes deny a form of love which disturbs, threatens and hurts someone. Those three things can occur in the very instant of trying to give tough love. The way we process it: it's best to avoid this and go the safer route. We don't deny that tough love is helpful, we just try to avoid it.

Is it wrong? Yes if you are emotionally lead. Sometimes we know the severity of someone's mental, emotional and environmental state so we try to work around to not destroying them - ironically destroying ourselves. It can be unintentional but we carry so much empathy that it's too much on the passive side, the moment when someone needs the nitty gritty of it all we are hesitant.

Tough love really speaks on many lengths in regards to short term and long term answers. The importance of the person will determine if once you give that tough love, how much you are willing to help them in the latter. No matter what your situation is, tough love from any angle is all about the context: because you care.

After all the processing that my Ne+Si has done, my Fi and Te have a discussion. Weigh up all the factors and make a conclusion. The domineering values of Fi and the realistic facts of Te - yikes! Te actually cares as much as Fi but is more accepting of what the situation is (for now).

So many "what ifs" come into play with this when we try decide between tough love or sacrificial love. Tough love is much more meaty and sacrificial is much more watery (in my opinion). Both are strong in value and reason but approaches are different. I prefer sacrificial love just because of it's trust aspect - you show your worth through what you can do with them not needing to understand. This love get's mistreated and manipulated. I'm only starting to consider tough love because it shows your worth through what you can't do with them needing to understand. It's love that get's misunderstood and misplaced.

Ultimately - does tough love need to be about your concerns or can it still be about them, but your acknowledgement to limited help along with their acknowledgement to limited support? Does sacrificial love need to be about them or can it still be about your concerns, but your acknowledgement to them being helpless and you being a potential support.

It's a warzone!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Can you phrase this in a less abstract manner? I am very interested in the INFP/INFJ dynamics, but I don't want to be guessing what you're trying to say.

Послато са SM-J500FN уз помоћ Тапатока
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,860 Posts
Eh--I'm not sure how 'tough love' is defined.

But maybe what you're talking about is the difference of communication style between INFJ and INFP. INFJ are directing, from what I understand, so they tend to try to direct others more often. Whether that's for love or for whatever else, it makes more of a direct influence. It probably makes one type better at 'tough love.'

INFP are more informing, so probably more likely to just wait behind the scenes, viewing the situation, taking in information, and avoiding messing with most situations in a manipulative manner. I imagine when INFP are directing, it's more obvious and comes in more blatent head-on communication that is easier to deflect or analyze than the more indirect forms of directing that Fe probably gets used to using in order to avoid social disharmony.

But yes, INFPs are not supposed to be particularly directing of other adults, from what I've read.

I don't want to give 'tough love' to an adult. I will create boundaries and enforce rules, give punishments to children as they need that for their development. If an adult wanted to agree to a relationship in which I am to give a certain consequence for their behavior, like a punishment, and they openly discuss this with me, I may agree. But generally I tend to try to let people work things out by talking through their issues, understanding their issues better, and then choosing to change their behavior.

I think maybe it's the extroverted judging function. With Fe, even though the behavior itself is directing, the thoughts and intentions behind it aren't always as known, perhaps, but it still puts people at ease or perhaps keeps them unaware of the knitty gritty thinking behind it.

With Te, as in Te dom or aux, I think that the tendency to direct is more obvious, and it takes a more obvious form as the thinking is usually well explained and communication more direct, sometimes at the expense of social harmony. I prefer this kind of directing, because I feel it offers me choices so I feel more compliant and aware of my own behavior, rather than just manipulated into something I'm unaware of. This paragraph is pretty speculative as I've spent limited time around Te dom/aux--I don't have a lot of experience with them as most of the people I've been around for lengthy periods are feelers and not thinkers. I think though that it's a little easier to grasp Te than Ti, as perhaps Ti is more hidden like Fi is. Te is more extroverted of a function.

Or something like that maybe...most of my experience is with Fe dom, and while I think being around a judger is helpful, ultimately I had a very hard time calling that 'tough love' or any kind of love at all. Perhaps INFP are more watery--I can see that. I think both INFJ and INFP grow from developing stronger, clearer boundaries and communicating them better. Jung or someone said that Fi acts in a sort of strange quiet power over the environment, influencing people without saying anything. I think perhaps that's how Fi dispenses 'tough love' maybe unconsciously just by showing or acting out of its values, people may see it and second guess their own behavior or consistency with their values, come into value conflicts with Fi dom, and ultimately end up paying a little more attention to their own core values and refining them a little bit. I don't know if this is through a conscious effort on the Fi dom/aux's part to affect their environment though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Eh--I'm not sure how 'tough love' is defined.

But maybe what you're talking about is the difference of communication style between INFJ and INFP. INFJ are directing, from what I understand, so they tend to try to direct others more often. Whether that's for love or for whatever else, it makes more of a direct influence. It probably makes one type better at 'tough love.'

INFP are more informing, so probably more likely to just wait behind the scenes, viewing the situation, taking in information, and avoiding messing with most situations in a manipulative manner. I imagine when INFP are directing, it's more obvious and comes in more blatent head-on communication that is easier to deflect or analyze than the more indirect forms of directing that Fe probably gets used to using in order to avoid social disharmony.

But yes, INFPs are not supposed to be particularly directing of other adults, from what I've read.

I don't want to give 'tough love' to an adult. I will create boundaries and enforce rules, give punishments to children as they need that for their development. If an adult wanted to agree to a relationship in which I am to give a certain consequence for their behavior, like a punishment, and they openly discuss this with me, I may agree. But generally I tend to try to let people work things out by talking through their issues, understanding their issues better, and then choosing to change their behavior.

I think maybe it's the extroverted judging function. With Fe, even though the behavior itself is directing, the thoughts and intentions behind it aren't always as known, perhaps, but it still puts people at ease or perhaps keeps them unaware of the knitty gritty thinking behind it.

With Te, as in Te dom or aux, I think that the tendency to direct is more obvious, and it takes a more obvious form as the thinking is usually well explained and communication more direct, sometimes at the expense of social harmony. I prefer this kind of directing, because I feel it offers me choices so I feel more compliant and aware of my own behavior, rather than just manipulated into something I'm unaware of. This paragraph is pretty speculative as I've spent limited time around Te dom/aux--I don't have a lot of experience with them as most of the people I've been around for lengthy periods are feelers and not thinkers. I think though that it's a little easier to grasp Te than Ti, as perhaps Ti is more hidden like Fi is. Te is more extroverted of a function.

Or something like that maybe...most of my experience is with Fe dom, and while I think being around a judger is helpful, ultimately I had a very hard time calling that 'tough love' or any kind of love at all. Perhaps INFP are more watery--I can see that. I think both INFJ and INFP grow from developing stronger, clearer boundaries and communicating them better. Jung or someone said that Fi acts in a sort of strange quiet power over the environment, influencing people without saying anything. I think perhaps that's how Fi dispenses 'tough love' maybe unconsciously just by showing or acting out of its values, people may see it and second guess their own behavior or consistency with their values, come into value conflicts with Fi dom, and ultimately end up paying a little more attention to their own core values and refining them a little bit. I don't know if this is through a conscious effort on the Fi dom/aux's part to affect their environment though.
I think with the Fe and Fi comparison, Fe feels the need to make love and affection harmonious for its own sake? It's why I can imagine INFJ's to be good counsellors - helping those but not letting values determine the reason or be present. In terms of relationships I do believe that an INFJ would have reasons but they wouldn't let the reasons be the forefront of their approach. It's like a natural ability to embrace. If they are paired with an INFP, I suppose the Fi would be able to identify an NFJ's reason and embrace from there.

I am also around a dominant Te and when they are being assertive and direct.. and in my experience they tend to always be right! I find that my Si and Te come alive around them but my Fi just is quite stubborn to 100% agree at first >.> What's nice is if we are talking about a situation that is intense, and my Fi reacts with this and I explain how I feel, they don't react the same at first.. eventually they react the same way after realising (inferior Fi). The same goes with myself and Te)

My experience with an INFJ and their dominant/aux functions being the opposite placement and "vertedness" of an INFP: if we are talking about love, compassion, empathy, helping others etc. I feel like an INFJ's personal experiences (values) show through their conclusiveness and more narrow decisions via Ni. Whereas my personal values are shown through the open and expansive decisions via Ne. They will tell me "don't put your hopes up because..." which I guess is a norm in a discussion. However I end up finding that it interlinks with their own experiences. If I tell them "yes but what if..." but for me personally I cannot say whether this links to my own experiences. Are INFPs more open minded than INFJ in that sense?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Can you phrase this in a less abstract manner? I am very interested in the INFP/INFJ dynamics, but I don't want to be guessing what you're trying to say.

Послато са SM-J500FN уз помоћ Тапатока
Sorry :D I feel that INFPs values based on their Fi come into play much more with how they express love, compared to INFJ who's values based on their Ti may not? I don't really know how the value system of an INFJ works but I think because they are not that grounded in their own values. When I speak to an INFJ they never seem to know how to understand their feelings when something happens.

In the way it's my reason to say why I appreciate INFJ's, if this be the case, values to not be the forefront of how they convey show tough or soft love.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
898 Posts
I don't know... I feel like every type experiences this kind of conflict. Wanting to be there for someone without getting trampled over. I knew an INFJ who really struggled with it, like it was pretty much all he ever talked about with me. It's just that the way every type goes about it is going to differ some... I guess I look at an INFJ and I see someone more proactive than me... I wouldn't call Ni narrow, personally; it's a perceiving function after all. I usually hear it described by Ni users as an idea being channeled into them, like when they're standing in the shower and it just comes through. And they can't help but use Fe to do something to proactively help those they've had this...thought channeled into them regarding. They're just very...receptive. Honestly I'd have thought they'd have more difficulty turning down someone than an INFP, but maybe I'm wrong.

But yeah, I agree, INFP's are very values-oriented. I guess we would have difficulty turning someone down because we value caring and harmony, and we use a perceiving extroverted function (Ne) in order to be as gentle as possible. I have a bad habit of being that way until my shadow Te-side springs out and I just momentarily become this tyrant who's had enough. Whereas INFJ's shadow side is Se so they might momentarily escape through running off on an adventure or being promiscuous. If their temper does flare it's usually about how they're not being given enough freedom or independence to enjoy themselves (Se); they're tired of doing everything for everyone. Whereas I guess Te is more a means of securing Fi values that feel momentarily undermined. Feeling trampled over can feel like a violation of the harmony Fi seeks, even if it's not a super receptive function like dom-Ni.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
I honestly think tough love is just realistic love. The "tough" part can also simply be called boundaries. You can love someone but still expect them to treat you and others right. You can love someone even if you need to end the relationship. Sometimes that is the only loving response... it's just not loving to let someone walk all over you.

With respects to Fe values, I think Fe values honestly just come from what works, in the Fe user's own experiences. Fe values come from Ti. How do other people affect me and how do I affect them? How do I want that balance to be? And the answer to that question is my values.

But yeah, I agree, INFP's are very values-oriented. I guess we would have difficulty turning someone down because we value caring and harmony, and we use a perceiving extroverted function (Ne) in order to be as gentle as possible. I have a bad habit of being that way until my shadow Te-side springs out and I just momentarily become this tyrant who's had enough.
Yeah this is a difficult pattern in the Fi-Fe interplay. Fi doesn't understand that Fe expects it to state its values. Everyone has different values and Fe would accommodate them if Fi would speak up rather than holding onto quiet resentment. This is the issue with being tolerant or "soft love." You are quietly resenting someone even though you won't tell them it bothers you.

I find this really hard with INFPs. I love INFPs and I hate being expected to be a mind reader because even each INFP has unique values. But a lot of the times, you guys won't say what you want or what you expect. You just expect people to know. And even when I do think I know, I find it so much more comfortable to actually get confirmation of what you want.

It's not as fun or exciting to communicate like this, but it is more sustainable and prevents the Te bitchslaps. :( don't bitchslap me plz guys
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
898 Posts
So many "what ifs" come into play with this when we try decide between tough love or sacrificial love. Tough love is much more meaty and sacrificial is much more watery (in my opinion). Both are strong in value and reason but approaches are different. I prefer sacrificial love just because of it's trust aspect - you show your worth through what you can do with them not needing to understand. This love get's mistreated and manipulated. I'm only starting to consider tough love because it shows your worth through what you can't do with them needing to understand. It's love that get's misunderstood and misplaced.

Ultimately - does tough love need to be about your concerns or can it still be about them, but your acknowledgement to limited help along with their acknowledgement to limited support? Does sacrificial love need to be about them or can it still be about your concerns, but your acknowledgement to them being helpless and you being a potential support.
Oh and to answer this, discussion on functions notwithstanding... Personally I just can't stand it when someone tries to come across authoritative when they're rejecting me (or when I witness them rejecting someone else) for whatever reason. Like when they try to rationalize it with, "I have to go to work" and they say it in a condescending tone, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. I much, much prefer it if someone would be up front with their concerns as well as just explaining their circumstances rather than trying to put their foot down about them. Like, "I can see exactly what you're struggling with but I have to get the house clean before I leave later. Can I help you with that tomorrow morning?" - or - "Can you do that yourself, but we'll go get coffee tomorrow morning?" I just want to be made to feel like a person and not a threat, I think everyone does.

Also I think with relationships you just have to risk someone seeing you, flaws and all, and allowing them to interpret you as they will. You can never, ever do so much for someone that they won't be able to see the chinks in their armor.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
898 Posts
Yeah this is a difficult pattern in the Fi-Fe interplay. Fi doesn't understand that Fe expects it to state its values. Everyone has different values and Fe would accommodate them if Fi would speak up rather than holding onto quiet resentment. This is the issue with being tolerant or "soft love." You are quietly resenting someone even though you won't tell them it bothers you.

I find this really hard with INFPs. I love INFPs and I hate being expected to be a mind reader because even each INFP has unique values. But a lot of the times, you guys won't say what you want or what you expect. You just expect people to know. And even when I do think I know, I find it so much more comfortable to actually get confirmation of what you want.

It's not as fun or exciting to communicate like this, but it is more sustainable and prevents the Te bitchslaps. :( don't bitchslap me plz guys
I honestly don't expect people to read my mind, it's just that I'm afraid of asserting myself because I have a harsh superego that tells me I would get shamed if I said what I'm really thinking. I do struggle with resentment but the overriding feeling is shame.
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
I am more of an emotionally raw communicator than most INFJs I've met, also meaning I tolerate messier emotions from others and may be more patient with the process it takes for someone to change. The idea of tough love for INFJs seems to be to nudge people towards the INFJ's ideals under the pretense of being concerned & that these ideals are somehow universal and objectively good. It looks more manipulative and self-serving than tough love to me.

I am generally not a fan of what is often called tough love because most of the time I see it as an excuse to take frustrations out on people or dismiss them as "toxic". A lot of times, it stems from a black and white mentality of "I'm right; you're wrong". I think more in terms of dynamic, and how I need to adjust to inspire a better response from someone. That may include something "tough", like distancing myself from them.

To me, genuine tough love is being firm and knowing where the line is between support/encouragement and codependency. I am okay with that, and I tend to be far more bluntly honest than most FJs. That actually is a problem I have with them.... my expression is much more raw and direct when it does come out, and if I hold back, it is cuz I know people cannot handle such honesty.

I am also not as quick to give up on people as some others seem to be, because of that aforementioned comfort with "messiness", but I don't make excuses for people nor indulge them. I do seek to understand a different perspective and not judge motives or behaviors strictly from a single perspective. I don't think I have a problem being firm or giving discipline nor do I have "excessive empathy" (which I have seen in many ExFPs; I actually think IxFPs are firmer people at core, being dominant rational types). I manage kids pretty well and always place "values" above emotions (theirs or mine). I won't tolerate a violation of some value just to spare feelings. However, I don't see a need to push my preferences as something universal and to make others "fall in line" with a specific vision of mine. I don't care for most rules and prefer an exploratory approach, so why would I seek to push stuff on other people?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
I honestly don't expect people to read my mind, it's just that I'm afraid of asserting myself because I have a harsh superego that tells me I would get shamed if I said what I'm really thinking. I do struggle with resentment but the overriding feeling is shame.
Ah, I get that. Maybe it's resentment in close relationship and shame in more casual ones?

To be fair, sometimes I earned my bitchslaps by trying to make a point. Trying to get the other person to speak up even though it's already obvious what they expect.

I guess it's just like, if the values go unsaid, if I am forced to assume them, then it can feel like there is also some implication that I should agree with them. Which feels minimizing of my own perspective and my own values. This is my own problem but it is a Fe/Ni thing... covert communications demand covert communications in return. And I don't like to play games. So have lost a few relationships by simply refusing to be the crutch in someone's self-esteem. Always makes me really sad though, because I don't want it to go that way.

But I think it's more honest. Easier said than done but, fundamentally you don't deserve to feel ashamed and in an ideal world could live without shame. The ironic thing is that if you don't believe in yourself, you are unable to really come across as believing in your values either... which are a part of you. Hopefully that shame gradually becomes replaced with somewhat more assertive confidence in self and especially in others.

I'm not trying to be critical though. I just think we all can only deal with people who are on our level right now. Tough love welcomes tough love, and soft love can only handle soft love, so at different times there's a purpose for both.
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
I honestly don't expect people to read my mind, it's just that I'm afraid of asserting myself because I have a harsh superego that tells me I would get shamed if I said what I'm really thinking. I do struggle with resentment but the overriding feeling is shame.
Experience has taught me that people cannot handle what is on my mind. They don't really want to know.
I have never been accused of wanting people to read my mind...frankly, I see that much more with my ISFJ mom and FJs in general, as they operate off this assumption that there is some objective value we all are aware of and will adjust to, not realizing this is really a personal concept of theirs. For me, I expect no one to understand me and mainly just want to be left alone, aka not judged or pushed.

I was rereading Proust again and in Swann's Way, the character Swann often has a social mask on in which he avoids giving his true feelings about things, because he likes the people he interacts with (or wants to like them & wants to display appreciation for them), but he doesn't value the same things. They people he socializes with claim to prefer honest, open people, and they come to dislike him because they sense a wall with him, that he is always holding back his real feeling. When he does express his real feeling, they dislike him even more, because it doesn't correspond with their own feelings. This social group is comically hypocritical, and it perfectly illustrates to me the kind of convoluted BS one has to deal with in social groups and with people in general.

This also illustrates the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation INFPs may find themselves in.... in order to get along with people, we cannot express our real feelings as they do not correspond to the feelings of others, and that leaves others feeling a "disharmony" (particularly with Fe types, who seem to want consensus and agreement on everything); yet, by holding back, we seem suspicious to people or leave them feeling on eggshells (not knowing how we feel and therefore how we will respond to anything), which also leads them to dislike us.

If people are going to dislike me anyway, then I don't see any reason to lay bare my feelings for them to trample over also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
Experience has taught me that people cannot handle what is on my mind. They don't really want to know.
I have never been accused of wanting people to read my mind...frankly, I see that much more with my ISFJ mom and FJs in general, as they operate off this assumption that there is some objective value we all are aware of and will adjust to, not realizing this is really a personal concept of theirs. For me, I expect no one to understand me and mainly just want to be left alone, aka not judged or pushed.

I was rereading Proust again and in Swann's Way, the character Swann often has a social mask on in which he avoids giving his true feelings about things, because he likes the people he interacts with (or wants to like them & wants to display appreciation for them), but he doesn't value the same things. They people he socializes with claim to prefer honest, open people, and they come to dislike him because they sense a wall with him, that he is always holding back his real feeling. When he does express his real feeling, they dislike him even more, because it doesn't correspond with their own feelings. This social group is comically hypocritical, and it perfectly illustrates to me the kind of convoluted BS one has to deal with in social groups and with people in general.

This also illustrates the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation INFPs may find themselves in.... in order to get along with people, we cannot express our real feelings as they do not correspond to the feelings of others, and that leaves others feeling a "disharmony" (particularly with Fe types, who seem to want consensus and agreement on everything); yet, by holding back, we seem suspicious to people or leave them feeling on eggshells (not knowing how we feel and therefore how we will respond to anything), which also leads them to dislike us.

If people are going to dislike me anyway, then I don't see any reason to lay bare my feelings for them to trample over also.
I really feel bad for INFPs who feel misunderstood and left out and feel like giving up on people. I think the problem is not that people don't share your feelings... but more that they don't have the same feelings about the same things. And part of this is about bridging the gap between those two. Not to be the same as each other or have the same feelings or values necessarily, but to be working together in a mutually beneficial way.

But, please don't give up on people. You have something of value to contribute. And people can be of value to you if you look hard enough.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,860 Posts
I think with the Fe and Fi comparison, Fe feels the need to make love and affection harmonious for its own sake? It's why I can imagine INFJ's to be good counsellors - helping those but not letting values determine the reason or be present. In terms of relationships I do believe that an INFJ would have reasons but they wouldn't let the reasons be the forefront of their approach. It's like a natural ability to embrace. If they are paired with an INFP, I suppose the Fi would be able to identify an NFJ's reason and embrace from there.

I am also around a dominant Te and when they are being assertive and direct.. and in my experience they tend to always be right! I find that my Si and Te come alive around them but my Fi just is quite stubborn to 100% agree at first >.> What's nice is if we are talking about a situation that is intense, and my Fi reacts with this and I explain how I feel, they don't react the same at first.. eventually they react the same way after realising (inferior Fi). The same goes with myself and Te)

My experience with an INFJ and their dominant/aux functions being the opposite placement and "vertedness" of an INFP: if we are talking about love, compassion, empathy, helping others etc. I feel like an INFJ's personal experiences (values) show through their conclusiveness and more narrow decisions via Ni. Whereas my personal values are shown through the open and expansive decisions via Ne. They will tell me "don't put your hopes up because..." which I guess is a norm in a discussion. However I end up finding that it interlinks with their own experiences. If I tell them "yes but what if..." but for me personally I cannot say whether this links to my own experiences. Are INFPs more open minded than INFJ in that sense?
I wrote a couple replies to this but deleted them both. I'll say that I tend to see Fe as kind of skimming the cream off the top of communal feelings. It's sort of like Te and perhaps Ne in that way.

Introverted functions go a bit deeper, and they have all kinds of stuff in them. So like if you're talking about yogurt--introverted feelings is the culture, the ingredients, the ecosystem of the yogurt. It's sour and also sweet, and rich and also astringent. It has to own all the imperfections as well as the 'cream'.

I imagine the extroverted functions are less idiosyncratic, they are more just skimming the tip. I'm not sure how perceiving and judging compare in this analogy, but I've grown to feel this way about them.

That being said, Te is often 'right' just as Fe is also often right. They just tend to focus on what's tried and true, what's a little more pragmatic...what gits'er'done. Ne is similar, and probably Se. They are more git'er'done functions.

Ni compared to Ne is much more...rigid and intricate. It's a framework that may appear more narrow because it is so precise that it is weighing what fits where...does anything really fit properly into the structure? Ne is more like...hey lets just take this apart a little and stick these together and we've got something to work with.

I think it's possible that Fe tends to seek an understanding of consistency between various external groups with the help of Ti. So it's finding some 'reason' to the Fe feeling, which is mostly from external sources. Ti is rather impersonal as well.

Fe tends to get upset when someone challenges one's status, I've found, which seems rather personal even if the Ti/Fe does focus on establishing some universal values by looking outward. Like 'are you insulting me'' Rather than like...'you are a horrible monster' which sounds more idk...objective. But then, I also think it's rather common for Fe to use those 'objective' judgments more casually without much true conviction, while perhaps it's also common for Fi to become 'personally insulted,' or to appear that way, when they're actually reacting to a deeper insult of values that really has very little to do with their own person.

Fi/Te also looks to establish universal values in a way...but they are perhaps using the self as reference and also to apply the values to. So Fi often gets upset at perceiving others as just heinous behavior or people...it's personal, but still universalized--perhaps by Fi that is trying to create a more complete framework or cosmology.

So I think with Fe/Ti the consistency comes from Ti and an attempt to create a logical framework to frame cosmology. With Fi/Te the framework is Fi and the Te is a way to sort of manifest that into the external world or to be able to categorize the external world with it better. idk.

Eh...and that is kind of why I erased the last two posts, because I'm not sure about any of this but it's just something I've been thinking about (Imo Ne--so much more halfhazard than Ni, which is why you don't see Ni brainstorming a bunch...it is carefully trying to piece together and divine where something fits into the bigger picture, which is what makes it appear more 'closed minded' or 'narrow.') Likewise, Fe is also much more 'open minded' about values changing relative to environment, while Fi appears more 'closed minded' because it is mostly carrying the framework with them, though still flexible with Ne or Se.

Edit: "cosmology" probably isn't the best word. I just mean a more complete feeling judgment map regarding one's self, others, one's placement in that map, etc. Just supposed to mean something like a complex system of judgment and values that both Fe and Fi users have...but attempting to view the different ways they get there.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,860 Posts
I really feel bad for INFPs who feel misunderstood and left out and feel like giving up on people. I think the problem is not that people don't share your feelings... but more that they don't have the same feelings about the same things. And part of this is about bridging the gap between those two. Not to be the same as each other or have the same feelings or values necessarily, but to be working together in a mutually beneficial way.

But, please don't give up on people. You have something of value to contribute. And people can be of value to you if you look hard enough.
Having the 'same feelings about the same things' is referring to values. The values we place on things. Not emotions.

So one could argue that 'the feelings about things' is a definition of feelings...not sure how jung defined them, but I think it was supposed to be more complex than emotional reactions, and values could be a good example of a feeling judgement.

If you value something deeply and other people treat it like trash, it makes sense you would keep that to yourself unless you could actively do something to change it. Most of the time you cannot without at least some help from others, so it makes sense to avoid opening up to people who don't share your values because they may just trash them or the things you care about.

I don't think OrangeAppled is describing 'giving up on people' but rather setting boundaries to keep her values and feelings from being trashed or disparaged more than she is willing to tolerate.

IDK though--I can't really speak for her, but I felt that @OrangeAppled described how I sometimes feel very well. It sounds very familiar even if we share different experiences. But yeah--experience has also taught me people often cannot handle, nor do they want to, what is really on my mind. It's always kind of painful to me when someone tells me they really want to know, and then they react like some atom bomb has just been dropped on them, or they just try to shush me. That's basically my whole childhood with my mother. People often comment on how peaceful I am and how patient I am, but then when I open my mouth to speak I often hear that I am 'thinking too much' or that I am too anxious, or have been told I have 'negative energy' by some kind of parasitic con-hippy imo too. So I can relate to feeling misunderstood. I don't think it's unhealthy to accept that some people simply do not share one's values and there is no reason to be too candid or exposed to them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
Having the 'same feelings about the same things' is referring to values. The values we place on things. Not emotions.

So one could argue that 'the feelings about things' is a definition of feelings...not sure how jung defined them, but I think it was supposed to be more complex than emotional reactions, and values could be a good example of a feeling judgement.

If you value something deeply and other people treat it like trash, it makes sense you would keep that to yourself unless you could actively do something to change it. Most of the time you cannot without at least some help from others, so it makes sense to avoid opening up to people who don't share your values because they may just trash them or the things you care about.
I agree, it does make sense. However Te is connected to Fi to help translate your values into something clear that other people, who share or don't share your values, can understand. This is the Achilles' Heel and fundamental struggle of INFPs. How do I share my values in a way that is meaningful and effective to others rather than just creating distance from others and sheltering my values within my own world.

I don't think OrangeAppled is describing 'giving up on people' but rather setting boundaries to keep her values and feelings from being trashed or disparaged more than she is willing to tolerate.

IDK though--I can't really speak for her, but I felt that @OrangeAppled described how I sometimes feel very well. It sounds very familiar even if we share different experiences. But yeah--experience has also taught me people often cannot handle, nor do they want to, what is really on my mind. It's always kind of painful to me when someone tells me they really want to know, and then they react like some atom bomb has just been dropped on them, or they just try to shush me. That's basically my whole childhood with my mother. People often comment on how peaceful I am and how patient I am, but then when I open my mouth to speak I often hear that I am 'thinking too much' or that I am too anxious, or have been told I have 'negative energy' by some kind of parasitic con-hippy imo too. So I can relate to feeling misunderstood. I don't think it's unhealthy to accept that some people simply do not share one's values and there is no reason to be too candid or exposed to them.
Again it makes me sad that this happens to you. I mostly can't imagine reacting this way to someone. Certainly not to an INFP of all people.

Probably the only thing I get frustrated with is when INFPs just give up on the relationship because it's scary. Even really close relationships. Like, they have some conflicting values and then rather than talk it out they just give up. But I've learned to accept that too. I know it's hard. Anyway, I appreciate INFPs a lot but in some cases it feels like they can only tolerate being appreciated from afar. Because I can't pretend I always have the same values. But I also value their values, because I value them as a person and their way of thinking, so communication helps with that.

It's absolutely true though that it's not always healthy to share your values with everyone. Unfortunately it's just reality that a lot of people won't understand. Not everybody wants to understand. And everyone else is also stuck with their own opinions and values. But there are ways to make people understand, and you do that by saying what you want and expect from people.

I think this is the hardest thing for every person. We're all fundamentally alone, everyone feels alone sometimes, and out of that we're forced to develop strength and self-love. To accept that my opinion is right and true, I have a valid perspective and I will believe myself even if nobody else will share that perspective.

It's easy to say and feel like it's just me, I'm the one who's too different. Because you're stuck with the way it feels to be you and to have people not take you seriously.

Well, people can be there for you even if they don't totally understand, but to appreciate that you have to look at the impact of their actions and their commitment, if it exists, rather than your interpretation of their words. This is easier once you know more clearly how you want to translate your values into real-world results. How, specifically, they can be used to better the world around you. And I think that's another struggle for all IP types. Bringing the inner world into alignment with the external world.

Sorry if this comes off as patronizing, I'm not trying to be, also not trying to be invalidating, I just have my opinions.
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
Having the 'same feelings about the same things' is referring to values. The values we place on things. Not emotions.

So one could argue that 'the feelings about things' is a definition of feelings...not sure how jung defined them, but I think it was supposed to be more complex than emotional reactions, and values could be a good example of a feeling judgement.

If you value something deeply and other people treat it like trash, it makes sense you would keep that to yourself unless you could actively do something to change it. Most of the time you cannot without at least some help from others, so it makes sense to avoid opening up to people who don't share your values because they may just trash them or the things you care about.

I don't think OrangeAppled is describing 'giving up on people' but rather setting boundaries to keep her values and feelings from being trashed or disparaged more than she is willing to tolerate.

IDK though--I can't really speak for her, but I felt that @OrangeAppled described how I sometimes feel very well. It sounds very familiar even if we share different experiences. But yeah--experience has also taught me people often cannot handle, nor do they want to, what is really on my mind. It's always kind of painful to me when someone tells me they really want to know, and then they react like some atom bomb has just been dropped on them, or they just try to shush me. That's basically my whole childhood with my mother. People often comment on how peaceful I am and how patient I am, but then when I open my mouth to speak I often hear that I am 'thinking too much' or that I am too anxious, or have been told I have 'negative energy' by some kind of parasitic con-hippy imo too. So I can relate to feeling misunderstood. I don't think it's unhealthy to accept that some people simply do not share one's values and there is no reason to be too candid or exposed to them.
This explains it all. The bolded made me laugh because I recall my ESFP e7 older sister painting me as hostile and argumentative, saying I have an "ugly personality", being criticized as "cold", etc, because I analyze things in a way which unsettles her. She is all about being happy, upbeat, hedonistic, etc. Anything which seems to disturb this is criticized by her. So I was treated as someone unpleasant when I was sharing my thoughts.

I still experience people treating me as being disruptive to their sense of reality when I express my thoughts/feelings. I also notice they project their rather infantile Fi onto you, and they degrade your feelings as something childish, because they can only grasp it on that simple level (much as N types around here may degrade S types, or how in real life S types dismiss N perspectives as nonsense). My mother has treated my need for a separate identity this way.

So I am frequently feel like I am in a position of dissent with others if I express myself, and they mark me as difficult for it. If I try to be agreeable, then they rightly sense I am holding back my true feelings.

Again it makes me sad that this happens to you. I mostly can't imagine reacting this way to someone. Certainly not to an INFP of all people.

Probably the only thing I get frustrated with is when INFPs just give up on the relationship because it's scary. Even really close relationships. Like, they have some conflicting values and then rather than talk it out they just give up. But I've learned to accept that too. I know it's hard. Anyway, I appreciate INFPs a lot but in some cases it feels like they can only tolerate being appreciated from afar. Because I can't pretend I always have the same values. But I also value their values, because I value them as a person and their way of thinking, so communication helps with that.

It's absolutely true though that it's not always healthy to share your values with everyone. Unfortunately it's just reality that a lot of people won't understand. Not everybody wants to understand. And everyone else is also stuck with their own opinions and values. But there are ways to make people understand, and you do that by saying what you want and expect from people.
I don't know about the giving up part. People have given up on me....I almost never give up on anyone given they have not actively harmed me. I may pull back a bit, but sometimes that is just introversion. I am not scared of intimacy at all, but I find others overconfident in their ability to be intimate with someone like me. It's always more than they bargain for. I remember reading in Van Der Hoop's Conscious Orientation how Ne types can be very tiring to people, perhaps because of a kind of capriciousness they embody....I think combined with the puzzling aspects of Fi, INFPs may be quite exhausting. We are not easy, simple people, as much as some of us try to present that way or imagine ourselves to be (quite convincingly, given the INFP stereotypes).

It is very exhausting to "make people understand", for them and myself, and as you note, most don't care to, and you really don't know who that is off the bat. It does challenge people's world views, and they will feel defensive as a response. It is because they don't come from a mentality that multiple views are acceptable, so they feel a need to defend a particular one or set it above another.

What's funny is what a terribly ordinary person I am. You'd think I was harboring some shocking secret or lifestyle preference from this post.

What makes things hard is how I don't fit the patterns people have formed for people in their mind. I really think it is the INFP incongruities with the stereotypes people have in their minds that bothers them and leaves them on eggshells. They like people to fit a particular mold (oh the irony of discussing this in terms of type, haha), so they can predict things about them. Then they know how someone will feel, act, etc, and this comforts them. I don't see anyone as being that one-dimensional, so I cannot grasp how this model for reality keeps being used by people.

For example, I am quite religious/spiritual, yet also arty farty and intellectual. For the religious crowds, I am way too, er, free spirited, and they are too prudish for me. For the arty smarty people, I am too religious, too preoccupied with the moral significance of things (what a downer and disappointingly traditional!).

I think this is the hardest thing for every person. We're all fundamentally alone, everyone feels alone sometimes, and out of that we're forced to develop strength and self-love. To accept that my opinion is right and true, I have a valid perspective and I will believe myself even if nobody else will share that perspective.

It's easy to say and feel like it's just me, I'm the one who's too different. Because you're stuck with the way it feels to be you and to have people not take you seriously.
I used to tell myself it was in my head that people treated me differently or belittled my views more, but it's not. The first step towards validating myself was acknowledging that most people DO respond differently to me and DON'T share my perspective (usually, with some exceptions of course). It is not in my head, I am not too sensitive, etc.

Just as people may fundamentally be all alone, I think we all have a need to be connected. I think people have trouble distinguishing acceptance from agreement when it comes to connection. I don't feel agreement is necessary.

Well, people can be there for you even if they don't totally understand, but to appreciate that you have to look at the impact of their actions and their commitment, if it exists, rather than your interpretation of their words. This is easier once you know more clearly how you want to translate your values into real-world results. How, specifically, they can be used to better the world around you. And I think that's another struggle for all IP types. Bringing the inner world into alignment with the external world.
The issue is that my concept of a better world is not what others' concept is, and what makes mine more or less valid? Who gets to decide if you are manifesting your values/principles and "bettering the world"? I don't feel an impetus to better the world anyhow. I find it arrogant to suppose that I know what is best or better even.

I don't need total understanding. As I noted above, I just really want to be left alone, aka, not judged in such a way that it affects me (ie the kind of social ostracizing that can occur) or pushed to conform to what I see as rather arbitrary standards. But in doing that, I really am asking others to see things the way I see it, which is to see many perspectives as valid and just different ways of meeting similar fundamental needs.

It's a weird hypocrisy, because I have a preference to accept the differences in people, to accept they feel differently, to not require consensus, etc; yet, in asking for the same in return, I am asking people to be like me. For me to truly accept them & have consistency within myself, then I have to accept that they can never accept me, because that is precisely how they differ (in the ability to see many different perspectives as valid).

Of course, I understand and greatly appreciate the ENFJ view and desire to harmonize seemingly disparate aspects of reality and people, that if you do enough of a Ni shift in perspective you will spot the center of a Venn Diagram. In this way, ENFJs are like an inverse of INFPs, so it's a comfort to know you exist, but of course, you are far from the majority :) .
 
  • Like
Reactions: wums and WickerDeer

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
This explains it all. The bolded made me laugh because I recall my ESFP e7 older sister painting me as hostile and argumentative, saying I have an "ugly personality", being criticized as "cold", etc, because I analyze things in a way which unsettles her. She is all about being happy, upbeat, hedonistic, etc. Anything which seems to disturb this is criticized by her. So I was treated as someone unpleasant when I was sharing my thoughts.

I still experience people treating me as being disruptive to their sense of reality when I express my thoughts/feelings. I also notice they project their rather infantile Fi onto you, and they degrade your feelings as something childish, because they can only grasp it on that simple level (much as N types around here may degrade S types, or how in real life S types dismiss N perspectives as nonsense). My mother has treated my need for a separate identity this way.

So I am frequently feel like I am in a position of dissent with others if I express myself, and they mark me as difficult for it. If I try to be agreeable, then they rightly sense I am holding back my true feelings.
Yeah... :frustrating: this part is really difficult. Like maybe those just aren't the right conversations given where they lead to, but obviously if you're around the people who want to have those conversations you get hemmed into a corner anyway. Like you mentioned about them claiming that they want to understand but then this happens.

Personally I generally take the path of least resistance with these situations. Let people just assume I am the same, which is what they'll do in the absence of opinionated feedback. If I'm relatively certain they won't understand the things I'll end up saying, then no point wasting my breath on it. I know what to expect from those types by now and I've made peace with what they have to offer in spite of what they can't. It's lonely but not as lonely as I expected it to be. As long as I do have someone in my life to actually connect to at the time.

I don't know about the giving up part. People have given up on me....I almost never give up on anyone given they have not actively harmed me. I may pull back a bit, but sometimes that is just introversion. I am not scared of intimacy at all, but I find others overconfident in their ability to be intimate with someone like me. It's always more than they bargain for. I remember reading in Van Der Hoop's Conscious Orientation how Ne types can be very tiring to people, perhaps because of a kind of capriciousness they embody....I think combined with the puzzling aspects of Fi, INFPs may be quite exhausting. We are not easy, simple people, as much as some of us try to present that way or imagine ourselves to be (quite convincingly, given the INFP stereotypes).
Just speaking for myself, I don't find INFPs exhausting at all, actually really energizing, but intimidating? Conflicted and contradictory? Simultaneously the easiest and most impossible of all the personalities to satisfy? Yeah all of the above, yet I never stop trying. And I think you're totally onto something in that presenting oneself as a simple person can sometimes be half the problem. However, that said, you also can easily overcomplicate yourself. INFP 9s are closer, at least to the observer, to what one thinks of as "simple people." Probably a a large portion of them would get mistyped ISFJ. So INFP 4s by contrast are, perhaps, "simple" people who also just happen to not entirely inhabit this mortal realm. Maybe it's not about being complicated people but more about having a complicated investment in things unseen. A seemingly arbitrary assortment of things, to anyone else.

It is very exhausting to "make people understand", for them and myself, and as you note, most don't care to, and you really don't know who that is off the bat. It does challenge people's world views, and they will feel defensive as a response. It is because they don't come from a mentality that multiple views are acceptable, so they feel a need to defend a particular one or set it above another.

What's funny is what a terribly ordinary person I am. You'd think I was harboring some shocking secret or lifestyle preference from this post.
Exactly. Individual Si users feel like they are actually different from one another because of these differences. And I mean they are, of course. Yet in practice, are generally not living particularly different sorts of lives. On a different time table, with different or different amounts of people? Yes, but moving in the same direction in the same kind of way. So at least, having Se, all Si users seems like variations on a theme to me. And that, at least is some kind of real connection between them.

You know, Se being all about action, to Se, the question is, why understand/be understood? What are you going to do with it?

So maybe I focus too much on actions in this reply when I talk about making people understand. I think the Si equivalent is having common interests. But in both cases the bottom line is having something concrete and stable outside the self to bridge the gap between two people. You mentioned religion below, but think about why religion is so successful. Like it or not, people need that kind of thing.

What makes things hard is how I don't fit the patterns people have formed for people in their mind. I really think it is the INFP incongruities with the stereotypes people have in their minds that bothers them and leaves them on eggshells. They like people to fit a particular mold (oh the irony of discussing this in terms of type, haha), so they can predict things about them. Then they know how someone will feel, act, etc, and this comforts them. I don't see anyone as being that one-dimensional, so I cannot grasp how this model for reality keeps being used by people.
It's just a property of the Ne-Si axis that Ne is the essential connective element. Without Ne, two conflicting pieces of Si can't be reconciled. Can't even be compared. It may be exhausting to translate your values, but if it is exhausting, maybe it's because you're working too hard or in the wrong place, because fundamentally it should just come natural to you as a Ne aux. Maybe you're over-understanding. Or at least over-considering.

It's not that they reject your differing view, it's that they don't understand that multiple views exist. You have to be careful with projection in this kind of territory.

The problem is not that they don't accept you, it's that they accept you into a schema that you don't fit into. To S types, my experiences = reality. People who don't share my experiences = a) deliberately opposing what is "obviously" true or b) simply not real. Until they develop their intuition they don't even know how to process the concept that you just work differently than them. So when you're different, they think it's because you're deliberately trying to make some kind of point.

Let's think of it like this, right? We have two pieces of info and a connection:

Si------Ne-----Si

But consider this intead:


Si(1)----Ne(1)-----Si(1)


Si(2)------Ne(2)-----Si(2)

How can Si(1) compare itself to Si(2)?

It can't. There's no perceivable link between them. So if you only know Si(1), you actually have no frame of reference to even begin processing Si(2). It might as well exist in another dimension.


Let's say it looks like this instead:

Bob's brain: cars-----are------fast

Gemma's brain: apples-----are-----sweet

Bob starts talking to Gemma about cars. He's like, yeah man, they're so fast!!! Really speedy.

And Gemma goes, what? Cars? What's that? Are you saying apples aren't sweet....? I don't understand... Look Bob, Apples are sweet. Okay? So just stop.

What Gemma is not saying is, oh, you like cars huh? Ugh, what a waste of my time. I don't have time for car people, I don't like cars, they're not sweet.

Gemma doesn't even know what a car is until someone relates it to an apple or to sweetness. She has no metric for anything other than apples, or sweetness.

So getting back to the point... your job as the Ne user is to drive around in cars while eating an apple. It's... art? Anyway, then Gemma's gonna be like, "woah, you can eat apples in cars!" And Bob will go "yeah man, apples! Just discovered them. Turns out they're totally great for when you're going fast!"

You are a nexus of diverse fields of interest and experiences.

You can't force them to make the right connections though. They just might not have the right memory structures to be able to do so. The data in your brain is a lot less detailed and a lot more connected. But for sensors it's more like, a lot of details that branch off into isolated like clusters. It's not all interconnected. They are not capable of these complex cross-contextual interpretations that you are and don't have the internal resources to grasp them.

Maybe this way of thinking is uncomfortable, and I've had people react to me like a freak for thinking this way too, but it's the truth, and the truth is lonely but it will set you free from the frustration of wanting someone to understand you who is genuinely incapable of doing so. If you want to fit in, then you become more of a sensor. Develop a routine, be more consistent in your interests, pay more attention to details, live more of an average lifestyle, and you will gradually become better understood by more people (and understand them better too.)

Thing is, the brain is fluid. In this way, you have a choice. The more you let go of the things that keep you separate, the more you will belong. If that's what you really want to do. Sensors don't understand intuitives because they just don't need to. In their lives it has no purpose to them, so in reality it's just as invalidating to expect them to.

The question becomes, what purpose is your Ne serving for you? What are you doing with it and what is it doing for your life? Again, how can you make your values connect more deeply out in the "real" world?

On the topic of the thread--I will tell you that you don't do it by putting up with people and overlooking differences. If people are treating you like crap, it's because they genuinely don't have a way to understand, or care, what they're putting you through, and you need to be there for yourself first, as the person who does understand you and should care. That, IMO, is tough love.

Sorry that got maybe a little overly deep. :bored:


For example, I am quite religious/spiritual, yet also arty farty and intellectual. For the religious crowds, I am way too, er, free spirited, and they are too prudish for me. For the arty smarty people, I am too religious, too preoccupied with the moral significance of things (what a downer and disappointingly traditional!)
And to both, you could bring aspects of the other, as long as you don't need them to grasp the total picture.

I'm just pointing out how it can be a strength and give you value to people. Where there is real value in the connections, then you have value to share with the people who are not connected, if you find the right way to share it.

Just as people may fundamentally be all alone, I think we all have a need to be connected. I think people have trouble distinguishing acceptance from agreement when it comes to connection. I don't feel agreement is necessary.
Absolutely. And what creates the sense of connection? People also accept you as they interpret you, not as you truly are. The easiest way to connect is if people know what to expect from you. Actions are consistent and much more reliable than a collection of personal thoughts and values which may not translate at all correctly between two brains. I'm not saying actions always speak louder than words, but they definitely speak far more universally.

The issue is that my concept of a better world is not what others' concept is, and what makes mine more or less valid? Who gets to decide if you are manifesting your values/principles and "bettering the world"? I don't feel an impetus to better the world anyhow. I find it arrogant to suppose that I know what is best or better even.
Interesting, because I find it arrogant to suppose that you can save anyone from your opinions anyway. :wink:

As someone who's been devastated by an INFP's misguided humility. :crying: You know, good intentions...

This is a vice though. It may feel, being an introvert, like you can just withdraw and not intervene, as opposed to risking some kind of harmful intervention. But neither is fundamentally more or less harmful. You do harm by reaching and harm by running away--by disconnecting.

I actually don't like this stereotype that INFPs are gentle creatures who wouldn't hurt a fly. You do hurt and help people equally as much as any type hurts or helps people. Only by a different mechanism.

I don't need total understanding. As I noted above, I just really want to be left alone, aka, not judged in such a way that it affects me (ie the kind of social ostracizing that can occur) or pushed to conform to what I see as rather arbitrary standards. But in doing that, I really am asking others to see things the way I see it, which is to see many perspectives as valid and just different ways of meeting similar fundamental needs.

It's a weird hypocrisy, because I have a preference to accept the differences in people, to accept they feel differently, to not require consensus, etc; yet, in asking for the same in return, I am asking people to be like me. For me to truly accept them & have consistency within myself, then I have to accept that they can never accept me, because that is precisely how they differ (in the ability to see many different perspectives as valid).
I guess we're already on the same page with a lot of this! I feel like I'm maybe just echoing the spirit of what you said here anyway. I think Te is the thing that will solve the ostracizing problem.

(I struggle with this too with Ti, I have a poorly integrated Ti and I get left out just by not having enough of my own priorities. Not anchoring myself down to my life, or knowing what my priorities would be if I did have them. I'm kind of always wishing other people could give me a sense of meaning, or that other people could be my purpose, and then having to accept again that I have to provide that for myself. Connecting too indiscriminately to other people always sets me up for disappointment because people simply don't understand how connected I actually feel and can't process why someone would feel that way. So my Fe gets under-utilized and is not able to be appreciated either.)

But it's just the mirror image of what we're talking about for you. If Te is neglected, if you solve these problems by becoming withdrawn, then Fi is ineffective and your deep values are unfortunately just like a tree falling in a forest. In the other direction, you become more blatantly self-interested. More involved with people and more assertive because again, you can go in either direction, but if the reason you go there is to protect yourself, you do equal amounts of harm to the overall world. Everyone is always self-interested, but self-interest can be expressed in a pro- or antisocial way.

Of course, I understand and greatly appreciate the ENFJ view and desire to harmonize seemingly disparate aspects of reality and people, that if you do enough of a Ni shift in perspective you will spot the center of a Venn Diagram. In this way, ENFJs are like an inverse of INFPs, so it's a comfort to know you exist, but of course, you are far from the majority :) .
This venn diagram example is perfect and I thought of it many times while writing this post. Really spot on with regards to the way I'm seeing these things.

The temptation for me can be to focus only on the middle part and ignore everything else. I just want to clarify that I see the things that don't overlap, too. I (knock on wood) understand how you feel and what you're expressing. I have this problem. I'm so hopelessly aware of what and how people actually feel, but Ni devalues the specific circumstances in which they feel it as being unimportant. Knowing the feeling is enough to me to feel connected. So I'm still aware of the feelings, still think they are so important, but I stopped making them the focus, in favor of what to actually do about them. So don't take my post as being a counterpoint to the way it feels just because I'm giving advice too. Believe it or not, my intention is just to be useful here. I never know if it really helps to share my Ni, but I like to think it does.

Anyhow, we intuitives, we're all weird ones, we're all used to not fitting in and fortunately our intuition gives us extra skills to cope with that.

... I will say, oh my god, look how long this reply got. This is sloppy boundaries and I know it :frustrating: freaking sx first!! Freaking 9w1 too. I just wanted to be the one who understands ;_;
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top