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Discussion Starter #1
I heard a rumor we're super rare :cool:, and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?

I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...

Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss :)
Here it is:

458 – The Scholar Archetype

The 845 is the somewhat introverted, intelligent, headstrong, detached, hyper introspective problem solver with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.

*Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)

Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do. This tends to be the darkest of the tritypes because of the intensity of the 3 types (particularly if 4 or 5 is in charge). David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom. She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example)
An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.

874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

‎854 and 862 share the self-possessed confidence with solution mastery. The 854 is the artsy and intellectual 8 -- with a secret self-consciousness. The 862 is the champion rescuer, protector with a great need to help-- more duty.

the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.

‎846 vs 845. These two tritypes are very different. Both take charge and seek solutions. The 846 is one of the most confrontational tritypes. The other is the 836. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust. The 845 is more introverted and introspective. The 854 has 5 as a line of connection as well as in the tritype and makes this 8 more scholarly and focused on depth.

(4)-5-8 - The Power-Seeking 4
4-(5)-8 - The Reactive 5
4-5-(8) - The Withdrawn 8

Impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.

5-8-4: Most Intense Five. Needs creativity. Can be moody and melancholy.

458 is the most tough-minded and opinionated 4.

458 - Knowledgeable and direct 4. Most analytical 4. Craves knowing what makes people tick. Stronger Opinions.

845: Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. Most withdrawn 8, specially if introverted, 9 wing and/or sp.

The 458 is an active archetype...just more withdrawn...not passive like the librarian... more the expert as they gather knowledge but have a very definite point of view like the 478 and 468.

five with an eight fix: least intellectual, though perhaps the most mentally intense. unsettled by occasional fits of temper, sudden outbursts. affixed to notions of power; attitude of resigned realist. quietly guarded and insistent, may put others ill at ease.

eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
and circumstances.

The 458 is more openly emotional and expressive. The 548 is more mental and reserved...like the difference between 4 and 5. Both are intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted. They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something. Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.

A couple of distinctions...The 458 is more emotionally expressive than the 548. The content can be very different. The 458 is more inclined to talk about their feelings about a subject of interest whereas the 548 will be more reserved and speak about tinteresting facts about a subject. The energy of the 458 is focused on the analysis of their feelings first whereas the 548 is focused on the analysis of the information first.

Social increases the need to have the critical information needed to be interesting to others-- to be wise and in the know. Sp increases the focus on the the basics... the resources one must expend to have the information.What will the cost be? All 6 variations of the 458 will avoid being ignorant and speak up for what they believe in. For example, in contrast, the sp548 will be far more reluctant to speak than the sx845 but both fear being inadequate, incompetent and powerless.

The 4-5-8 is the most direct and blunt of all the tritypes, with the exception of perhaps 3-5-8

874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

seeing your place as in the shadows is exactly how the 458 describes themselves. The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 468 is the one that is hyper reactive and still seeks a fair authority. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.

the 548 tritype is the 5 most likely to appear 4-ish.

I think that 458 tritype could be mis-typed as 5, but this is much less likely than a 548 being mis-typed as a 4. It is double reactivity and resultant emotional intensity/volatility of having 4 and 8 together that clashes with the 5, even when 5 is core.

out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.

The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.

The 845 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.

(EIDB 548 tritype discussion thread: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - 5 4 8 Tritype ):

[Intense, especially with sx first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8. "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. Wants to know what makes people tick.

Actually, I think this 5 would be more fantasy oriented than information oriented. This would be the dreamy 5.

What I was criticising was the implication that the unique view a 5-4-8 creates is a monolithic system which doesn't change or adjust due to presumably stasis or narcissism or an inability to take criticism. Dynamism, flux and big intellectual shifts are much more likely.
While a 5-4-8 is likely to be an intellectual narcissist, I think any criticism that they are unable to change or adjust their view is the opposite of the case because there is an intense self-criticism as well. Change and flux are constant.

first, because 5-4-8's are unlikely to think in systems (which you've now agreed with), and second, because of their sensitivity to inconsistency, constant self-criticism and tendency to change positions.
I think there is an element of truth in the description though, in that 5-4-8's can be wilfully perverse and too arrogant to accept criticism from others. But they are likely to outwardly repudiate that criticism, and then later modify their views accordingly rather than stubbornly retain their original position.

My experience of this type is of course my only experience of any kind, so hard to be 'objective'. But here goes. I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking. Although all generalisations are suspect (including this one), it is particularly hard to generalise about this tritype. This tritype seems peculiarly subject to flux, and thus can vary greatly, or have many different real selves.
However, dark, eccentric, creative, cynical, sensitive, scholarly are not wide of the mark (although tend to create a caricature if taken too seriously). It's true that we tend to be intensely interested in the psychology of other people, if only because we are at an utter loss to figure out ourselves much of the time. In a way, we are natural scholars but too scholarly, polymathic and restless for universities these days, which reward the careerist specialist.
5-4-8's are subject to rapid oscillations of emotion and thought, equally capable of preternatural strength and weakness of mind at any given moment. One minute an angel, the next a cruel tyrant. A lot of love and a lot of hate. Exquisitely sensitive but all too capable of cruelty and callousness to others. One wants to know, in a totalizing and essential fashion, know poetically but know precisely as well, but never quite gets there.

We are paradox-mongers, live in metaphor, and are always trying to find new ways to say and see things (and hence are often pretentious) - i.e. iconoclasts - but can be as pedantic, systematic and anally analytical as anyone - i.e. using our 5-ness to beat others at their own games when they have underestimated us as loose, kooky or not with it.
5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.

I would caution against such a romanticized view of this tritype as it may defeat the value of knowing one’s type. I would disagree with a lot of the first things you said about this combination – “many real selves” and “subject to flux”. I find a kind of coherency in that here you’ve got two reactive types (4,8) two rejection (5,8) two withdrawn (4,5) and three very independent, very resistant to anything that originates outside itself, and not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.

I believe Nietzsche and Gurdjieff were of this tritype, though G may have had 7 instead of 5, but Katherine Fauvre very much agreed with me when I said there was something “Hermetic” about this tri-type. There is a kind of de-construction of present systems and a reconstruction into something that subverts previously-held notions. I like to think of myself as an “ontological terrorist”. Nietzsche is a beautiful illustration of what I see as the gift of this tritype – of staring past the fragility in the conceptions humans, as living and rational beings, hope to cling to and look into something “under”, to poke around in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation], and reveal the beauty within it. Hades operates under a kind of 854 archetypal pattern. There’s the destructive power and energy to produce an impact of 8, along with the “ground-up” construction and innovation of 5 with the creativity and will to rebirth of 4. Of course, that’s only there in the best examples of this tritype, a call the rest of us can only hope to live up to.

There are of course coherent factors - otherwise there wouldn't be a category. However, I still feel that the concept of change over time is very important to 548. I guess this is what I mean by different selves - the many different selves over one's life (which is also true of everyone). That is, think of Heraclitus's saw - you cannot step into the same river twice. Not just because the river has changed, but because you are - that minute to minute one's self is mutating, adapting, contradicting itself. This does not necessarily have to defeat the concept of a core coherent self, but certainly challenges it.

I disagree with your point that 548s are not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. While these three values are pretty hard to attain, and difficult to define, they are pretty important to me, at least some of the time - and especially in any discrete intellectual task I want to complete.

I think our tritype is especially gifted with calling it’s fundamental beliefs into constant question. You’ve got 4’s emphasis on self-creation and thus change, the 5’s emphasis on clear perception, innovation, curiosity, and the 8 that confronts and challenges. There is always a readiness to undermine ourselves with an aim at change, but shows us what crap each construct we hold at every stage of growth really is and there is always the correct suspicion that whatever construct we hold in the present is simply a construction.]

5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts.
typical subtypes: sexual, self-preserving, 5w4
similar tritypes: 5-8-4, 4-5-8
flavours: innovative, temperamental, egocentric and intense

5-8-4: original, rebellious, temperamental and highly individualistic and independent, these Fives are can be extremely self-focused and mostly unconcerned with other people’s feelings and wants. They are often inspired and have great vision which they strive to turn into reality – they have a practical side which helps them. Although brilliant and resourceful, others may find it hard to deal with their self-important, narcissistic behavior and their oversensitivity to frustration – their violent reactions can be scary.
typical subtypes: sexual, 5w4, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)
similar tritypes: 5-4-8, 8-5-4
flavours: resourceful, defiant, visionary and reactive
 

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Go onto Enneagram Institute Discussion Board. You can't throw a rock without hitting one over there.
 

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There are at least 3 more in here.
I used to think I was one as well, but I'm a 748.

Careful with tritype descriptions. They are way too generalized.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Just curious: what do tritypes explain that "normal" types don't?
Just more in depth. My mom is a 4-5-9, I'm a 4-5-8, there are real differences.

I mean, the tri-type is basically the type you use in each center, "heart", "head", or "gut".

to @Spades, curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?

Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...
 

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Just curious: what do tritypes explain that "normal" types don't?
Good question. I see tritypes as supplementary. The core type is what is really important and vital to self-growth, but the tritype just adds subtypes into the system. It's based on the theory that despite having a core type in one of the centers/triads [center being the anger center (8, 9, 1), the shame center (2, 3, 4), and the fear center (5, 6, 7)], everyone has access to the other two centers as well. So the other two types are secondary, and it is used to explain how that person deals with that particular center. You can't integrate or disintegrate from the secondary types, and the motivations of those types are dominated by the motivations of the core type.
 

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Ace of Spades
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to @Spades , curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?

Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...
Nope, I never said I had any doubt. Just to watch out for the tritype descriptions as they are essentially inductive and one should focus on the individual types inside. Also, 4 and 5 are the rarest types, and have the most mistypes. I wouldn't count 6 out, but I'm not arguing your type at all =)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Nope, I never said I had any doubt. Just to watch out for the tritype descriptions as they are essentially inductive and one should focus on the individual types inside. Also, 4 and 5 are the rarest types, and have the most mistypes. I wouldn't count 6 out, but I'm not arguing your type at all =)
Yeah, and 8 is pretty rare too, which makes me wonder if I'm kidding myself haha, oh well time will tell...

I could even be 4-5-1......?
maybe I am not even a four.......
I hate picking accurate constructs ITS NOT EVEN REAL ANYWAYS
 

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Just more in depth. My mom is a 4-5-9, I'm a 4-5-8, there are real differences.

I mean, the tri-type is basically the type you use in each center, "heart", "head", or "gut".

to @Spades, curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?

Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...
You're definitely not a 469 nor a 451.
478 sounds right.
Your posts are so energetic and excited. I resonate with what you write so much.
I, personally oscillate between 648 and 748. I've decided there's no need to decide which. ;)
I think 478 sounds right for your general energy.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You're definitely not a 469 nor a 451.
478 sounds right.
Your posts are so energetic and excited. I resonate with what you write so much.
I, personally oscillate between 648 and 748. I've decided there's no need to decide which. ;)
I think 478 sounds right for your general energy.
Hmmm I'll look into it, I always explained that energy with the so/sx instinct, the so called "lightest-four", but there may be something to that!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Seven vs. four is pretty easy to tell, in my experience. How do you tend to think of yourself?
Oh, I KNOW my core type is four. The tri-type is potentially up for grabs though... How do I tend to think of myself??

Um there's several different elements but I guess in-between someone puncturing my ego and someone proving me wrong in my self image I think I am

-real
-honest
-adventerous
-intelligent
-insightful
-analytical
-understanding
-two selves- the self I show to the world that lets things slide for everyone, graceful, tactful, can be funny but also distant, cannot stay with peopel too long because she runs out of material, gives people the benefit of the doubt, does not reveal about herself, goes with the flow, has energy, "likes" everyone but does not mean anything, and then the inner island self, few make it in, I truly reveal myself here and want people that make it in to stay and I will be loyal to them, I am willing to fight for and with these people because with them the truth matters and others are just passing by.
 

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Oh, I KNOW my core type is four. The tri-type is potentially up for grabs though... How do I tend to think of myself??

Um there's several different elements but I guess in-between someone puncturing my ego and someone proving me wrong in my self image I think I am

-real
-honest
-adventerous
-intelligent
-insightful
-analytical
-understanding
-two selves- the self I show to the world that lets things slide for everyone, graceful, tactful, can be funny but also distant, cannot stay with peopel too long because she runs out of material, gives people the benefit of the doubt, does not reveal about herself, goes with the flow, has energy, "likes" everyone but does not mean anything, and then the inner island self, few make it in, I truly reveal myself here and want people that make it in to stay and I will be loyal to them, I am willing to fight for and with these people because with them the truth matters and others are just passing by.
For some reason, this post makes me think 478... if I knew why, I'd tell you.
 

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Hmmm I'll look into it, I always explained that energy with the so/sx instinct, the so called "lightest-four", but there may be something to that!
All I'm saying is you're definitely not a 9 or 1 for your instinct.
478 tritype really does seem to be very similar to your energy. But, of course, it's ultimately up to what you think describes you best. After all, you're the one who knows yourself the best.
 
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