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Discussion Starter #1
Generally I've been happy calling myself 6w7. Heavily counterphobic. I do feel counterphobic 6 describes me best -mostly always-.


My struggle is that my "fears", what I react to. What I'm terrified of. Are all 8 related things.

When people go on about "fear" or worry. I'm like yeah. I'm a worrier. But that shit can't and won't define me.

What does scare me shitless is the ability for people to ever get close to me. I hate the vulnerability and I push back. Or fight the urge to push back.

But that urge can make me physically sick when I'm trying to deny it. I have to force my brain to suck it up and deal with it. All counterphobic like, swallowing the bitter pill and sweating through the poison knowing I'll either be stronger or I'll have found a limit.

I don't know why I'm posting this. Probably for some different (over thought out and under qualified?) perspectives.
 

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Generally I've been happy calling myself 6w7. Heavily counterphobic. I do feel counterphobic 6 describes me best -mostly always-.


My struggle is that my "fears", what I react to. What I'm terrified of. Are all 8 related things.

When people go on about "fear" or worry. I'm like yeah. I'm a worrier. But that shit can't and won't define me.

What does scare me shitless is the ability for people to ever get close to me. I hate the vulnerability and I push back. Or fight the urge to push back.

But that urge can make me physically sick when I'm trying to deny it. I have to force my brain to suck it up and deal with it. All counterphobic like, swallowing the bitter pill and sweating through the poison knowing I'll either be stronger or I'll have found a limit.

I don't know why I'm posting this. Probably for some different (over thought out and under qualified?) perspectives.
6s can be afraid of being intimate too because they are afraid of the vulnerability because they too, want to be strong, and a counterphobic disposition may for example think that one ought to be independent and self-reliable in order to be a strong person, so the 6 pushes down their sense of needing to belong and feel connected. Both 6s and 8s may focus on an issue of betrayal, but their idea of how to betray is different because whereas for 8, this kind of disposition is innate and is largely felt in the unconsciousness (they may go on long rants to berate people that are weak for manifesting these traits though, such as here:

)

but for 6s, the idea of how to be strong is more consciously felt and coming directly from the superego; you ought to be a certain way and "I'm weak for feeling this, and I don't want others to see me as weak because if they do they'll take advantage of me".

8s don't have an innate logical reasoning towards thinking others are out to get them because they are intrinsically made inferior like 6s are. Someone posted this video of Jesse Pinkman in the 6 forum and it's a good video because it describes the idea so well:


Like, the entire style of Jesse vs Rust is so different. Jesse definitely has an 8 fix btw, so there's that aspect to him. Yet they conceptualize things so differently.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I have never felt weak or worrying about others seeing me as weak. I do see everyone else as weak and sad and like I need to fix things or take the struggle on for them because they can't stand by themselves or for others.

I wish everyone would see all the things that are around them, the things they're letting pass them by, all the stuff they're afraid of and do *something* to fix it. Stand up and take the hit and see it won't break them, and if it does, who gives a fuck, at least you took it.

But they don't. They sit and they whine and they're worried and afraid. It pisses me off and I have to hide it because if I say it and show it and get in their face they become even weaker. So instead you need to coax them and baby them.

I do not feel any need to belong, I actually prefer being alone because I don't have to worry about everyone bringing me down and having to compensate for their inabilities.

I feel like this is where MBTI factors in. I believe people should stand up and be strong and take the hit for the weak. I can be alone, but if i'm strong, why not be strong and shield someone else? It's selfish to just fuck off.

I am afraid of things (spiders, ocean, outer space, vulnerability) and I do hold my opinions back most of the time while I listen and learn more about the people and situations in front of me. Because acting without assessing the situation correctly would be hot, but stupid. I'd rather live to see the next fight etc. (these are the things I've seen as 6)

When I feel the need to fight or argue a point I don't back down and I don't tap out, you need to break me or win and I don't really care which because if i'm fighting it out it's for a reason.

For the first 2 decades of my life I was living in abuse, then for a decade I was isolated, now I've started a new job and the guys I work with are the people most people are afraid of. I clean and I cook and I learn (apprentice = slave labour yo.). What I didn't expect was how I could be acting so domestic and how afraid these guys are of me. I mean... I'm nice, open, listen to them about their problems when they're alone.

In the shop, it makes sense that they think I'm tougher and stronger than them, they've seen what I can do without me talking about it. But when I go to the bars with them to drive them home, I'm just standing there waiting. Guys hit on me, and other guys I've never met laugh and tell them not to mess with fighters.

I'm no delicate flower but I always imagine myself giving off soccer mom vibes. Not the kind of person that would intimidate a gun dealer or anything. (I don't work with any gun dealers or anything, ex-cons mostly, but they socialize).


This is how I see myself:
Her eye excelled in brightness, that of any other animal, and that she has no eye-lids—She may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.—She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage.—As if anxious to prevent all pretensions of quarrelling with her, the weapons with which nature has furnished her, she conceals in the roof of her mouth, so that, to those who are unacquainted with her, she appears to be a most defenceless animal; and even when those weapons are shown and extended for her defence, they appear weak and contemptible; but their wounds however small, are decisive and fatal.


-Ben Franklin’s thoughts on the rattlesnake as a symbol of America: ‘Don’t tread on me’
Edit: I didn't understand the blowfish thing. This is supposed to be a 6? I always imagined 8s as people with a lot of bark and no bite. People who want to seem tough but are mostly soft and squishy and weak. That they also don't like to hear it because it makes them act out, all angry and hurt inside. I've never imagined anyone is "out to get me", because life is life and people are all in it for themselves and they will screw anyone over to survive, but it's not *directed* at me (or anyone else - *generally* (Sometimes it is ./lol)). Thinking people are out to get you specifically is paranoia and rather self centered.
 

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@Gilly what you write doesn't sound very 6 to me and if you don't understand the analogy of Jesse being a blowfish (which is more akin to actual counterphobia btw), I think you already answered your own question when you wrote;

My struggle is that my "fears", what I react to. What I'm terrified of. Are all 8 related things.
 

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I have never felt weak or worrying about others seeing me as weak. I do see everyone else as weak and sad and like I need to fix things or take the struggle on for them because they can't stand by themselves or for others.

I wish everyone would see all the things that are around them, the things they're letting pass them by, all the stuff they're afraid of and do *something* to fix it. Stand up and take the hit and see it won't break them, and if it does, who gives a fuck, at least you took it.

But they don't. They sit and they whine and they're worried and afraid. It pisses me off and I have to hide it because if I say it and show it and get in their face they become even weaker. So instead you need to coax them and baby them.

I do not feel any need to belong, I actually prefer being alone because I don't have to worry about everyone bringing me down and having to compensate for their inabilities
Definitely type 8 and not 6. A lot of this reminds me of interactions with my type 8 sister and father; they interpret my desire for support as weakness and I get annoyed by the way that they always have to be the competent one, always the one on top somehow by the end of the argument. I would find it kind of bizzare to see a 6 who rarely feels weak or unprepared, but it's the overarching vibe for 8s.

My vision of a stereotypical 8 is less the pissed off kid who wants to fight everyone and more of the jaded adult who thinks those kids are idiots and is tired of having to stroke everyone's damn egos. It's not even physical half the time. An intellectual 8 is the man who knows he's the smartest person in the room. He just knows. See, he'll only start getting reactive if you start challenging him, telling him he's got things mixed up and that you understand it soooo much better than him. Then the 8 will push out a bit of force. Like a tiger calmly stamping its foot down on the tail of a mouse. You thought you could win that fight. Hm. Look at your position. Look at me. Wanna continue?

This can annoy non-8s because, like, who appointed you king of the jungle? But for 8, they just feel as though they're the strongest person there and there's not a lot they can do about it. They often have a desire to help people who they see as truly helpless; children are a commonly cited example. Integration to 2 furthers this sense of magnanimity, and healthy type 8s use their position as "the strong one" to support their family and friends.

Stand up and take the hit and see it won't break them, and if it does, who gives a fuck, at least you took it.
That thing about taking a hit, by the way, is something that the head triad in general has trouble with. 7s might say that they've got no issues taking hits, but that's because they usually imagine themselves dodging whatever imagined consequence rather than actually sitting through it :tongue:.

I'm no delicate flower but I always imagine myself giving off soccer mom vibes. Not the kind of person that would intimidate a gun dealer or anything. (I don't work with any gun dealers or anything, ex-cons mostly, but they socialize).
I've seen this comment from some 8s, ha. You guys come on stronger than you realize.

Her eye excelled in brightness, that of any other animal, and that she has no eye-lids—She may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.—She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage.—As if anxious to prevent all pretensions of quarrelling with her, the weapons with which nature has furnished her, she conceals in the roof of her mouth, so that, to those who are unacquainted with her, she appears to be a most defenceless animal; and even when those weapons are shown and extended for her defence, they appear weak and contemptible; but their wounds however small, are decisive and fatal.

-Ben Franklin’s thoughts on the rattlesnake as a symbol of America: ‘Don’t tread on me’
Sounds about right for 8 with the judicious use of force and power without exaggeration.

I've never imagined anyone is "out to get me", because life is life and people are all in it for themselves and they will screw anyone over to survive, but it's not *directed* at me (or anyone else - *generally* (Sometimes it is ./lol)). Thinking people are out to get you specifically is paranoia and rather self centered.
Agree with this completely by the way.

@Entropic's blowfish clip is pretty accurate though. For 6, outward confidence is often about charades. They'll be unsettled on a certain level, but in order to deal with things competently you sometimes just gotta act like you're more solid than you are. 6 has a connection to type 3 and when they're stressed they will resort to a "fake it till you make it" strategy. Since that doesn't resolve the type's fundamental anxiety, 6s will typically be unhappy about that sort of trickery. They want their actions to match their conscience.

Edit: Although 6s can also take a perverse sort of pleasure in "cheating the system" by putting on a big show when they're nervous, especially 6w7s.
 

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I'm no delicate flower but I always imagine myself giving off soccer mom vibes.
Same. Just for the record.


I always imagined 8s as people with a lot of bark and no bite. People who want to seem tough but are mostly soft and squishy and weak. That they also don't like to hear it because it makes them act out, all angry and hurt inside. I've never imagined anyone is "out to get me", because life is life and people are all in it for themselves and they will screw anyone over to survive, but it's not *directed* at me (or anyone else - *generally* (Sometimes it is ./lol)). Thinking people are out to get you specifically is paranoia and rather self centered.
Same thing again. I've always felt that way about the 8 archetype, even before learning the enneagram. "I'm not one of those tough guys that's all weak inside". It irritated me! I guess if enneagram had been properly introduced to me, I would have actually gotten that famed "bad reaction" to it.

Take it into account; I dunno what your type is. Why did you go with 6 in the first place?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Same. Just for the record.



Same thing again. I've always felt that way about the 8 archetype, even before learning the enneagram. "I'm not one of those tough guys that's all weak inside". It irritated me! I guess if enneagram had been properly introduced to me, I would have actually gotten that famed "bad reaction" to it.

Take it into account; I dunno what your type is. Why did you go with 6 in the first place?
I had gone with 6 because I think a lot and watch people, I don't always act, I wait for the correct time to present itself. I often have patience when I'm not certain I can win.

Yet I'm also aware I'm highly confrontational in my day to day life. I don't feel confrontational because the things I say and do aren't meant offensively. They're meant to show other people what my observations are so they can counter act them if I misinterpreted.
I felt this was a 6 thing.

I felt the fact that I see all the ways things can go wrong and the possibilities was very 6 like. I've never been really afraid of these possibilities, just that one should know them while they are acting. Ignore it, but be ready if one of those things comes into play.

I feel most at peace when I'm by myself but also crave social interaction. I go overboard. It's too easy for me to infiltrate a group and end up near the top when I never meant to. Then I become self conscious that I've overexposed myself to different people and that I can't control how so many people see me at once and traditionally I've disappeared. Never seeing or speaking to them again. I still like them and care about them but more people can always be found and opportunities are everywhere.

I've been learning to fight the feeling to flee for years but it's hard. I've been pushing against it hard these last couple months and also been talking to someone I thought was type 8 with a 6 in his tritype. We both had very bad childhoods filled with abuse and lack of control. Yet when I'm out with him he's afraid of things. People. Attack. I'm telling him it doesn't matter because who ever would be stupid enough to try would lose. And even if they didn't lose. It doesn't matter. Who cares that those possibilities exist we can't let that control how we act or live. But he's actually terrified and I actually can not understand it on any level.

I felt 6s with 9 in their tritype were more prone to fear and cowardice the way the stereotype portrays and that 6 with 8 made for a more counterphobic less afraid type.

I think my real issue was in my view of 8s for main type. Most type 8s I'd known were stps and action oriented over speech. When they did talk it sounded like how I think but they never thought the long game out. Usually coming out on top but still seemed foolish to me when there's another way.


Possible triggers ahead. I also want to delete all this shit. But yeah.

Whatever.

 

In my childhood, I had bitten myself before I could speak and then morphed into self flagellation and then cutting and burning myself. I listened to everything and watched and I gave all the correct kind responses people needed to hear. But I was angry inside and myself for being so weak and not being able to control my evil hurtful thoughts. I was angry at others for standing by and being hurt and watching others get hurt and I was angry at my mother for doing it all while she blamed everyone but herself.

I stood by being quiet trying to gain as much of my mothers favour. She always said I was slow and stupid and I couldn't hurt a fly so she didn't pay attention to me. When I'd throw myself over my sister during a beating to shield her it was because I "didn't have the sense to see she'd beat me harder for it" so she let me off with a warning. But I was afraid of her and what she could do. Killing the animals because she knew you cared. Snapping a neck or shooting it. Hang it from a rafter and let you find it.

I was the one who took care of all the animals. One day when I was 15 she brought three puppies inside they were almost dead they were so cold and she put them in the oven on low. I tried to reason with her that was the stupidest thing in the world, she told me that I wasn't allowed to touch them or disobey her. It wasn't a request. I kept begging her while I smelled them cooking and completely broke down. I was weak and I was angry because I should have acted instead of talking and I was afraid of what she'd do to me so I let three innocent puppies cook to death.

I snapped. I disconnected from all the animals and my sisters started to take care of them. I did whatever I had to do to get out and when I saw my sisters let her tell them not to do something (like sitting up with a dying dog) I'd rage at them for letting her control them when all that mattered was that dog dying in the next 24 hours and that you could never go back for it. I was covered from toe to neck in wounds constantly (during the worst time,last 6 months at home, I was cutting myself one hundred times per day, when I ran out of skin to slice I burned it and then I beat it. I was super fucked in the head).

My twin left home when she saw my skin (at 16) and was angry when I wouldn't go with her, but she'd never bothered to share her plans, she thought I'd not be smart enough to be quiet.

She was trying to save me when I didn't need saving.


Everyone always assumed things about me without ever taking the time to ask what was in my head. Everyone is always so busy assuming they know things when we all know nothing.

I guess the answer is I think like a 6? There are always many sides. I hate people and they disgust me. I disgust me. Because we're all weak. And worthless. Yet. I also believe that we can all overcome that fact and always become more. Stronger and harder. Everyone is afraid of something but no one ever needs to be controlled by fear.

So am I 6 because I can acknowledge fear and the aim to overcome it. Or am I 8 because I have a physical reaction (deep disgust) for people who are passive and imobalised/frozen in inaction.

If I ever try to say these things one on one to someone I either have to think about it like I'm telling a story from a book (I'm doing this now basically) or I need to hide under covers. The last one is ridiculous but true. A dark room and under blankets (other person is under them too) allows me to eventually say the things.


Talk about an overshare.

Can we discuss that it is also impossible to be type 8 and enfj.
 
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