Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Lotus Jester
Joined
·
8,877 Posts
The disintegration point of your disintegration point is your "baffle type."

2 ===> disintegrates to 8 ====> disintegrates to 5

therefore, 2's are baffled by type 5.
So, would that mean that 4s are baffled by 8s and 5s are baffled by 1s and how does this theory work exactly. It sounds fascinating but I've never heard of it before.
 

·
MOTM Jan 2014
Joined
·
11,128 Posts

·
Lotus Jester
Joined
·
8,877 Posts
Some list here,
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/179-Enneagram-Talk-Styles-Essence-Passions-Fixations

You might be able to find out more about it from there. I'm not really sure.
I viewed the page but it doesn't really explain why each E type is baffled by the stress point of their stress point. As a 4, are you really baffled by 8s? Although I did know this 1 who judges himself constantly in a moral framework and I guess it definitely did baffle me, as to why.

For example, if confronted with a homeless person; he would agonize whether he would be helping them in out of compassion or whether or not he could view himself as a "good person" and therefore endlessly tied himself up in knots. To me, you should just do the right thing as you see it and not concern yourself with the "motivations" for doing so.

I don't know if any 1s are reading this post and care to comment?
 

·
MOTM Jan 2014
Joined
·
11,128 Posts
I viewed the page but it doesn't really explain why each E type is baffled by the stress point of their stress point. As a 4, are you really baffled by 8s? Although I did know this 1 who judges himself constantly in a moral framework and I guess it definitely did baffle me, as to why.
I have a strong 8 fix. Ask the other 4s though? I can understand why this would be the case. 4s are baffled by the idea of being closed to your emotions. Even I failed to understand this about type 8 when I mistyped as an 8, despite my strong 8 fix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Some list here,
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/179-Enneagram-Talk-Styles-Essence-Passions-Fixations

You might be able to find out more about it from there. I'm not really sure.
Thanks for the link. I like the myths and facts section:
Type 2 Myth: Twos just give to get and underneath are very needy.
Fact: Twos often give generously and only appear extra-needy because they repress so much need and desire, making them appear extra “thirsty” or needy.

Type 5 Myth: Fives are not giving, truly stingy, and overly reserved.
Fact: Fives are not stingy so much as unwilling to be sharing of self when they experience too many emotional claims or intrusions. Indeed, Fives can be very giving and engaged. They just want to know the extent of the claims on their time and energy, to know the parameters, so to speak.
 

·
MOTM Jan 2014
Joined
·
11,128 Posts
Thanks for the link. I like the myths and facts section:
Type 2 Myth: Twos just give to get and underneath are very needy.
Fact: Twos often give generously and only appear extra-needy because they repress so much need and desire, making them appear extra “thirsty” or needy.

Type 5 Myth: Fives are not giving, truly stingy, and overly reserved.
Fact: Fives are not stingy so much as unwilling to be sharing of self when they experience too many emotional claims or intrusions. Indeed, Fives can be very giving and engaged. They just want to know the extent of the claims on their time and energy, to know the parameters, so to speak.
More myth-busting:

Busting the Myths of the Enneagram People Pleaser: Type 2Wendy Appel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,610 Posts
I have a strong 8 fix. Ask the other 4s though? I can understand why this would be the case. 4s are baffled by the idea of being closed to your emotions. Even I failed to understand this about type 8 when I mistyped as an 8, despite my strong 8 fix.
I haven't really read much on this whole "bafflement" thing, but I can say that Eight certainly baffles me. Perhaps more than any other type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
449 Posts
As a 5, I find 2's to be deceitful. I just don't trust them. I also don't see them having a true self as they become what they think others want. I suppose I just don't respect them much. It's sad to say, but true. I think my gender bias shows up because as a woman, a male 2 is beyond intolerable, but I could probably have tolerance for a woman. Also, I have 2 in my tritype, so I'm aware of the manipulation and deceit to achieve an end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,605 Posts
I'm a 5w6 and I adore 2s. Everyone does something to get something in return. Input x for output y. I find Twos to be more straightforward and easy to understand than others. It seems the Twos' input is to be nice to those around them, but the only output they expect is acknowledgement and reciprocity of this kindness. I cannot help but feel that the world would be a much simpler and gentler place if more people operated on this premise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,712 Posts
Here's a quote from David Daniels website that I agree with:
Over the years I have found that every Two has a “secret” connection to type Five where they pull back, restore, conserve energy, and reflect mentally. And Fives can be giving with heartfelt generosity. They just want to know for how long, essentially that there is a beginning, middle and end to the claims being made upon them.
I think if both types are aware and appreciative of the other's approach to life then it works. If either is intolerant or too fixated then it would be difficult (which can be true of any types).

Type 2 - subjective, focuses on emotional states, connections with others
Type 5 - objective, focuses on facts and information, pulls back to analyze

I feel I move to type 2 often. If the type 2 can easily move to type 5 then we can connect both in the head and the heart centers. If the type 2 can't move to type 5 then it feels like a lopsided relationship.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
The disintegration point of your disintegration point is your "baffle type."

2 ===> disintegrates to 8 ====> disintegrates to 5

therefore, 2's are baffled by type 5.
This is hilarious: every type in my tritype is baffled by another type in my tritype: 5 by 1, 1 by 2, 2 by 5. I baffle myself. :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,961 Posts
It's similar to supervision relations in socionics, where one type admires the other, but the later feels themselves in more dominant position. In this case 5 is in role of supervisee/admiree and 2 is in role of supervisor. Often the 2 comes to dominate the 5. If the 2 is a woman and the 5 is a man, and their marriage isn't going great, it turns into a typical case of hen-pecked husband.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,961 Posts
I viewed the page but it doesn't really explain why each E type is baffled by the stress point of their stress point. As a 4, are you really baffled by 8s? Although I did know this 1 who judges himself constantly in a moral framework and I guess it definitely did baffle me, as to why.
"Baffled" doesn't explain the entirety of it, I agree, but there aren't many sources that explain all the nuances of this strange attraction, yet many have noticed it to exist. From what I've observed and experienced myself, the relations between double-integration types are alike socionics supervision.

For example, if confronted with a homeless person; he would agonize whether he would be helping them in out of compassion or whether or not he could view himself as a "good person" and therefore endlessly tied himself up in knots. To me, you should just do the right thing as you see it and not concern yourself with the "motivations" for doing so.

I don't know if any 1s are reading this post and care to comment?
That's Fi. Your friend is likely EII. That's the kind of nerve wrecking character self analysis loops that they get into (recall Dostoevsky's novels).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
Actually, @Animal (and anybody else), I was thinking about the bafflement thing more, and realized that 369 would all be baffled by their own integration point! How does this play out? Do they find integration harder than other types, or perhaps more mystifying? or are they baffled by true 3s/6s/9s, but not at all baffled by their own 3/6/9 integration tendencies? Or what? I do have a type 6 friend who seems, yes, very baffled by 9s. He tends to write them off and be very angered by them. I always thought that it was weird he should hate his integration point more than any other type.
 

·
Lotus Jester
Joined
·
8,877 Posts
cyamitide said:
That's Fi. Your friend is likely EII. That's the kind of nerve wrecking character self analysis loops that they get into (recall Dostoevsky's novels).
Hmmm, interesting; he tested as an INTP. I know that he judges and morally beats himself up relentlessly. He is an Sp 1 and is extremely anxious about doing the right thing.

Actually, @Animal (and anybody else), I was thinking about the bafflement thing more, and realized that 369 would all be baffled by their own integration point! How does this play out? Do they find integration harder than other types, or perhaps more mystifying? or are they baffled by true 3s/6s/9s, but not at all baffled by their own 3/6/9 integration tendencies? Or what? I do have a type 6 friend who seems, yes, very baffled by 9s. He tends to write them off and be very angered by them. I always thought that it was weird he should hate his integration point more than any other type.
In The Enneagram Movie and Video Guide; there is a analysis of Anne Rice's Interview With a Vampire - the movie version of it. Thomas Condon's conclusion is that Rice, a 4w3; is at war with her 3 wing and the entire story seems to be about a 4's conflict with a 3.

I actually relate to that as well; the negative aspects of my 4 wing; drive me bonkers.
 

·
MOTM Jan 2014
Joined
·
11,128 Posts
Actually, @Animal (and anybody else), I was thinking about the bafflement thing more, and realized that 369 would all be baffled by their own integration point! How does this play out?.
I am not totally sure how the bafflement thing plays out. @SharkT00th ?? Any idea? I remember you mentioning this at some point.

I used to have ideas about it - I had a brief theory but it got debunked internally by later realizations.

In The Enneagram Movie and Video Guide; there is a analysis of Anne Rice's Interview With a Vampire - the movie version of it. Thomas Condon's conclusion is that Rice, a 4w3; is at war with her 3 wing and the entire story seems to be about a 4's conflict with a 3.
Lol. I have internal conflicts with aspects of myself that could potentially be associated with both 3 and 5. The whole "authentic self vs. selling self to world" is a classic 4w3/3w4 inner dilemma. Although I would not phrase my own dilemmas quite as such.

My 3 wing plays with my authentic self-expression very nicely. :) Art is a mirror after all. The music & art I love most are pieces in which I can see myself mirrored. The singer isn't singing of his own pain alone; he's singing of MINE. So, I have no problem with the idea of expressing a very honest sentiment and presenting it clearly so that someone else can relate to it and see herself in it. Art is communication. If your art doesn't mean anything to anyone, you're a shitty artist. It's not that they 'aren't elite enough to understand you' - it's that your ass isn't intelligent or talented enough to communicate something that other people can understand. Why? We are all human, and if you're being honest about what you feel, and presenting it honestly, other people should be able to relate to it. It's not any less honest just because it's marketable. In fact, I take issue with people who try their best to make something 'obscure' or hard to understand. They're no longer expressing something honest and human. They are instead trying to do something selfish; distinguish self, rather than merge with the cosmos by expressing sentiments that are human. That whole '4 elitist' thing is such a crock of bullshit. I've been in bands with 4w5s who don't want to use a certain chord change because it's "too catchy" or they don't want to sing about love because it's "too cliche." FUCK that. If something sticks in my head, it will stick in someone else's head. If I feel something, someone else has felt it before. What makes my music unique is that it's ME, bare. I don't comply or rebel. I simply express. Compliance with the norm and rebellion against the norm are BOTH letting 'the norm' control you and dictate your actions. I refuse to be controlled, my music is mine. It is human, and because it is human, it is universal. Alone, we are all one. ;D

So yeah, my 3 and 4 play well together. It's the 5 alien shadow that annoys me. I don't want to analyze and dissect (I hate this about myself) and figure out "what am I" and think about particles and death. I want to feel, I want to bleed, I want to express, I want to be. Actions speak louder than words. "Who I am" is, to some degree, who I choose to be. I choose to be honest, but I also choose to communicate certain things and not others. I don't think that's dishonest. It's not the world's business to know everything about me at all times. If I were my ideal self, I would never explain anything and all of my sentiments would be communicated through actions. The idea of doing away with language altogether, and simply communicating in art, poetry, writing, music, dance, motion, love-making… is very appealing to me. Raw, animalistic. Do away with this advanced crap. We are all animals. Why don't I do this?? I have lost my voice so I speak in a whisper, and it might make sense for me to stop speaking. Stop typing too. Save it all for art. But I would feel too disconnected. It would be forced. Clearly… I am not my ideal self.
 

·
Lotus Jester
Joined
·
8,877 Posts
Lol. I have internal conflicts with aspects of myself that could very easily be associated with both 3 and 5. The whole "authentic self vs. selling self to world" is a classic 4w3/3w4 inner dilemma. Although I would not phrase my own dilemmas quite as such.
Yeah, I think that sort of what happens but it's also a spiritual vs. a more materialistic orientation that is battled about in the story.

My conflict is that I want to be authentic but I don't want to feel my emotions; also, intense emotions interfere with my desire to stay detached. I often experience a push-pull between wanting to stay detached and wanting intensity and if I get too much of it; then I will remain in "hibernation" for a long time. It's the same way with people. I intensely value my alone time but I also frequently crave contact with other people but I need to space it out; otherwise, I can get too drained by it.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top