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Discussion Starter #1
I've never been as sure about the instinctual variants as I have been about the enneatypes themselves. I know for sure that I'm a 4w5, but I'm less certain about the Sx/So that I've chosen for myself.

I was just reading this thread, but it just rekindled my uncertainty.

The description of Sp alone seems completely unlike me. I'm bored to tears by the common Sp conversation topics that that thread mentioned (food, money, etc), and one of my biggest (yet rarely-on-my-mind) fears is being unable to look after myself. However, my mind sees it as 'therefore I'll never find a girlfriend!' or 'people will think I'm pathetic!', with 'oh, and I might also starve/die/whatever' as an afterthought. I don't mind being considered 'dependent'; independence isn't something that I find desirable.

I crave deeply meaningful connections with other people, and my favourite topics are things like relationships, personal feelings, opinions, typology, and other 'intense' things like that. My preferences are really strong, too. I also care about my 'place in the world', and I have social anxiety due to my preoccupation with the judgements of others, but that takes a back seat to my desire for intense bonds. During the single relationship that I've ever been in, I was really clingy and got upset when she wouldn't open up to me as much as I did to her. I wanted to spend ALL our time together at the expense of other friends or practicality.

Based on those things, the Sx and So 'pure' descriptions fit, but the Sp one doesn't at all.

However, the description of the type 4 Sx/So sounds completely unlike me. It sounds like some kind of outgoing, risk-taking, aggressive, assertive daredevil who enjoys riling people up and being a rebel, while I'm extremely introverted and completely averse to offending people. It says it's eight-like, even, which is the type I feel is least like me.
I'm a HSP with social anxiety, which is surely a contributing factor here. It means that I don't 'take risks' in that 'outgoing' kind of way, however I do 'take risks' in the sense that, well, for the last few years, I've been hoping that I could make money through my art because it's more meaningful to me and I make an impact on strangers' lives, and have avoided getting a bill-paying job during that time. I suppose that's a huge 'risk' that an Sp type might not take?

Are you a Sx/So type 4? If you are, I'm curious about whether you can relate to the dauntless, aggressive, risk-taking, drug-chugging descriptions of that combination.
 
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I'm sx/so and I actually do relate strongly to that specific description you linked.
I would say that the need for intensity and passion has always been there. I have done reckless things searching for intense experiences too, though I'm not a skydiving, tornado chasing extrovert. ;) they tend to fall more in the realms of interpersonal, psychological, artistic, conceptual and spiritual realms, but there have been pure adventures and spur of the moment drastic measures involved too. And I am pretty rebellious. :) ...and fiery at times.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The description of So/Sx 4 from that thread doesn't seem to fit either though; I've never been a social charmer and I've always struggled to find friends; I can count the number of friends I've ever had on my fingers, and for the last few years I've had exactly zero. Things like mingling and small talk terrify me completely because I find them pointless and tiring, and the idea of having 'acquaintances' literally makes me snarl. To me, social connections are only a way to find the right, Perfect person who I can relate to completely, at which point I'd want to distance myself from the rest of the people in my life in order to focus on that single person and nobody else. One of my biggest fears is finding a partner and wanting her to be my only friend and wanting to do everything with her, but she'd want to introduce me to HER friends and I'd hate that because I don't want to meet people just because, or to have too many in my life.

Normally my thought processes involve thinking "will I get deep meaning and emotional intensity from this?" before considering "how will others feel about me?" or "how does this affect others?". I also thought 'yes yes yes!' when reading about the Sx's favoured conversation topics and biggest fears, but 'eh, I suppose...?' and 'I'd hate to talk about that' when reading about the same things for So. I've no interest in things like politics (I don't even know my 'political affiliation') or 'office politics', for example; I'd rather delve deeply into an individual's mind and heart. To know who, not what they are. Things like patriotism and nationalism bother me too, or people using 'we' when referring to their country or even their favourite sport team or something. I hate working in groups! I don't like it when people define themselves by their occupation either; I'd rather be 'an INFJ' than 'a games developer'.

This from Sx's pure description fits perfectly:
  • primary ambition - looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will complete them, and then obsessing over that completing element
  • primary stresses - lack of intense mental or emotional stimulation, lack of an intense connection or experience
I have a few online connections with people at the moment, but I feel so completely ungrateful of them because none of them Really Deeply Understand Me, I have no Strong Chemistry with any of them, and I end up saying 'I have no friends' (like I did at the top of this post!) because none of them are 'just right'. I obsess ridiculously over the idea of some perfect person who I'd have wonderful chemistry with, and interacting with people I don't have that with is just frustrating and reminds me of what I don't have. I'm probably really rude about it, too, sometimes saying "I don't have any friends" while in a conversation with them! I don't mean it as a dismissal of them; I genuinely feel that way because I lack the kind of 'friendship' I would consider worthy of that word.

This, from So's, barely fits at all (though it fits better than the Sp one):
  • primary ambition - interacting with people in ways that will build their personal value, their sense of accomplishment, and their security of place with others; to touch base with others to feel safe, alive, and energized; may include pursuit of attention, success, fame, recognition, honor, leadership, appreciation, and the security of being a part of something bigger than themselves
  • primary stresses - being able to adjust to others and be acceptable; others' reactions to them, whether they are being accepted or not; may include intimacy, which is tended to be avoided
It'd be nice to 'be someone', but actual fame and responsibility over others scare me, and I'd hate to be part of something that is 'bigger than myself'. I've never had a job because I feel uncomfortable about being part of a group with expectations, rather than doing my own thing.

I also desire intimacy more than anything; I don't fear it in the slightest, and if anything I'm the sort who'd be overbearing in my desire to be deeply close to someone. I blurt out my deepest feelings so often that people have told me how 'brave' I am for not being closed off and such.

I also don't really worry about being 'accepted' by others. Actually, I often say I'm worried about being able to find friends, etc, and people say to me "just be yourself", or "they'll like you, don't worry!", but it makes me frown because that's not what I care about at all; I'm worried about me not liking *them* because they're not 'right' for me or something. I always 'be myself', and hate the idea of putting on some mask to fit in (I've seen this referred to as low self-monitoring). I'd hate to *annoy* people willingly, but I also don't really want to adapt to suit others.

I want a place to belong, but more than that I want a person to belong with. I feel like if I were in a long-term relationship with a 'soul mate', my needs would be met.

Another thing that stood out was when that thread said that people get frustrated when other people don't behave according to their primary variant. In my case, I get annoyed by people who are guarded about their feelings, or who are happy with shallow things and small talk and such. "How can people be satisfied just scraping the surface like that?!", I think, and when I talk to someone who says that they aren't comfortable talking about their inner self, I feel frustrated because talking about my own is basically my favourite thing (hence this lengthy post!!).
I also get deeply annoyed by people who don't care about the feelings of others, but I've been assuming that's because of my Fe.

The *only* bit that doesn't fit about Sx/So is the supposed aggressiveness of it, though; is that a necessary part of it? Or might the tritype be a factor there? I'm open to the idea that I could be So/Sx, but it just seems odd that Sx's basic desires seem to perk me up a whole lot more than So's.
 
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The description of So/Sx 4 from that thread doesn't seem to fit either though; I've never been a social charmer and I've always struggled to find friends; I can count the number of friends I've ever had on my fingers, and for the last few years I've had exactly zero. Things like mingling and small talk terrify me completely because I find them pointless and tiring, and the idea of having 'acquaintances' literally makes me snarl. To me, social connections are only a way to find the right, Perfect person who I can relate to completely, at which point I'd want to distance myself from the rest of the people in my life in order to focus on that single person and nobody else. One of my biggest fears is finding a partner and wanting her to be my only friend and wanting to do everything with her, but she'd want to introduce me to HER friends and I'd hate that because I don't want to meet people just because, or to have too many in my life.

Normally my thought processes involve thinking "will I get deep meaning and emotional intensity from this?" before considering "how will others feel about me?" or "how does this affect others?". I also thought 'yes yes yes!' when reading about the Sx's favoured conversation topics and biggest fears, but 'eh, I suppose...?' and 'I'd hate to talk about that' when reading about the same things for So. I've no interest in things like politics (I don't even know my 'political affiliation') or 'office politics', for example; I'd rather delve deeply into an individual's mind and heart. To know who, not what they are. Things like patriotism and nationalism bother me too, or people using 'we' when referring to their country or even their favourite sport team or something. I hate working in groups! I don't like it when people define themselves by their occupation either; I'd rather be 'an INFJ' than 'a games developer'.

This from Sx's pure description fits perfectly:


I have a few online connections with people at the moment, but I feel so completely ungrateful of them because none of them Really Deeply Understand Me, I have no Strong Chemistry with any of them, and I end up saying 'I have no friends' (like I did at the top of this post!) because none of them are 'just right'. I obsess ridiculously over the idea of some perfect person who I'd have wonderful chemistry with, and interacting with people I don't have that with is just frustrating and reminds me of what I don't have. I'm probably really rude about it, too, sometimes saying "I don't have any friends" while in a conversation with them! I don't mean it as a dismissal of them; I genuinely feel that way because I lack the kind of 'friendship' I would consider worthy of that word.

This, from So's, barely fits at all (though it fits better than the Sp one):


It'd be nice to 'be someone', but actual fame and responsibility over others scare me, and I'd hate to be part of something that is 'bigger than myself'. I've never had a job because I feel uncomfortable about being part of a group with expectations, rather than doing my own thing.

I also desire intimacy more than anything; I don't fear it in the slightest, and if anything I'm the sort who'd be overbearing in my desire to be deeply close to someone. I blurt out my deepest feelings so often that people have told me how 'brave' I am for not being closed off and such.

I also don't really worry about being 'accepted' by others. Actually, I often say I'm worried about being able to find friends, etc, and people say to me "just be yourself", or "they'll like you, don't worry!", but it makes me frown because that's not what I care about at all; I'm worried about me not liking *them* because they're not 'right' for me or something. I always 'be myself', and hate the idea of putting on some mask to fit in (I've seen this referred to as low self-monitoring). I'd hate to *annoy* people willingly, but I also don't really want to adapt to suit others.

I want a place to belong, but more than that I want a person to belong with. I feel like if I were in a long-term relationship with a 'soul mate', my needs would be met.

Another thing that stood out was when that thread said that people get frustrated when other people don't behave according to their primary variant. In my case, I get annoyed by people who are guarded about their feelings, or who are happy with shallow things and small talk and such. "How can people be satisfied just scraping the surface like that?!", I think, and when I talk to someone who says that they aren't comfortable talking about their inner self, I feel frustrated because talking about my own is basically my favourite thing (hence this lengthy post!!).
I also get deeply annoyed by people who don't care about the feelings of others, but I've been assuming that's because of my Fe.

The *only* bit that doesn't fit about Sx/So is the supposed aggressiveness of it, though; is that a necessary part of it? Or might the tritype be a factor there? I'm open to the idea that I could be So/Sx, but it just seems odd that Sx's basic desires seem to perk me up a whole lot more than So's.
I don't think it's even so much aggression as it is about transgression, meaning to explore boundaries and go beyond. Which can be forceful aggression (assertivity, resistance, competition), but might as well be (forceful) attraction and pull, or just breaking a rule or established norm (and in particular the intensity that comes along with it, compare the Shock of the New in art & philosophical discours, or eroticism). The fact that you have social anxiety could be the exact reason for being So first, because it appears to dominate your mind what people think about you, or what you think they expect from you (the dominant instinct isn't neccesarily a pleasant preoccupation). I mean it appears to be stronger than your Sx drive. With regard to a 'person or situation to complete them', this doesn't necessarily have to be one and the same person, but could be anyone you resonate with, and for as long as it lasts. It's more like being in love (with a person, or with art or whatever). Compared with So, which in my perception is more about the romantic bonding, and Sp the security this brings. I also think Sx is spiritual and for that reason essentially individualistic.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't think it's even so much aggression as it is about transgression, meaning to explore boundaries and go beyond. Which can be forceful aggression (assertivity, resistance, competition), but might as well be (forceful) attraction and pull, or just breaking a rule or established norm (and in particular the intensity that comes along with it, compare the Shock of the New in art & philosophical discours, or eroticism). The fact that you have social anxiety could be the exact reason for being So first, because it appears to dominate your mind what people think about you, or what you think they expect from you (the dominant instinct isn't neccesarily a pleasant preoccupation). I mean it appears to be stronger than your Sx drive. With regard to a 'person or situation to complete them', this doesn't necessarily have to be one and the same person, but could be anyone you resonate with, and for as long as it lasts. It's more like being in love (with a person, or with art or whatever). Compared with So, which in my perception is more about the romantic bonding, and Sp the security this brings. I also think Sx is spiritual and for that reason essentially individualistic.
I'm not sure my social anxiety does dominate my mind as much as the desire for a true sense of being 'fully understood' does, though. It certainly gets in the way, but I think a lot of the cause of it is due to circumstance. I lack real social experience due to not really having anywhere that I need to go. As such, much of my fears relate to my own incompetence (probably a 5 thing), or just being too Different to really fit in (a 4 thing).

It could even be said to be Sp-related. Much of my anxiety manifests as a very visceral fear of panic attacks in public places, and the sensations that come with them (such as vomiting). I've also always been a hypochondriac, obsessed with fears about my own health, which have kept me up at night and tormented me for months at a time, but I don't think that I'm an Sp type either. Just highly neurotic and sensitive.

I also wonder whether mental disorders are a result of our types, or whether they emerge somewhat independently despite them. I might start a thread asking people with social anxiety what their instinctual variants are, to see how many choose So as the dominant.

Another sort of strange thing is the fact that I have literally hundreds of fans who follow my game-making work, and I regularly get fan mail from people telling me how amazing they think I am. Surely this is something that a So-dominant person would find highly appealing? I hate it, though; I'm always hoping that every new person will be someone who I have strong chemistry with, but when they're not, I just get frustrated by the idea of interacting with them at all. It's not due to social anxiety or anything; it's just that if I can't have an intimate, 'soul-piercing' conversation with them, I want nothing to do with them. I feel frequently tormented by how many of my fans are these 'undesirable' people, and I've even openly talked about this in a place that they could easily read, which seems like something a So-dominant wouldn't do due to fear of judgement or lack of acceptance or something? I want to attract people to me, but only so then I can hand-pick the few that I actually want to talk to in a meaningful way.

Relationships, too, are something I've seen as an 'all or nothing' kind of thing. I want a 'soul mate' and nothing less, and I hate the idea of people getting partners purely due to social expectation, or as 'arm candy' to show off how successful they are. The only thing that's important to me about a relationship is how deeply we'd be able to connect; how other people feel about my changed status from single to taken is of no interest to me at all.

I see people on forums sometimes saying that they have no friends and how they feel so lonely because of that, but mention their significant other in the same post. This has always seemed bizarre to me, because I feel I could live on the streets without connections to anyone other than someone I was ultra-close to and be happy; having friends and security are desires that always take a back seat, as things that are desirable, *I suppose*, but not 'necessary'. I *need* intense, soul-piercing love to survive, but I don't need friends, status, or physical comfort.

I don't like to rebel or shock or... actually, hmm. I drew this thing recently, which I suppose prioritises my desire to make a point and to question what it is that people accept as normal or fine, and I was fully aware at the time that people might find it uncomfortable, or might argue against it, but I didn't care. I suppose I wanted to 'shake up' how people felt about things, so maybe that's a sign of something.

I'm still drawn to Sx/So over So/Sx, but maybe I just need to see the terms used to describe it from a different angle that fits me better. Or something.
 

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Beatrice Chestnut and other enneagram theorists say Sx four is more aggressive than most eights.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Beatrice Chestnut and other enneagram theorists say Sx four is more aggressive than most eights.
I'd be very interested to see if any Sx 4s would agree with that statement. I personally find type 8 very intimidating because it's so aggressive and I'm not.

Oh, but I suppose 'aggressive' is a subjective term? I HATE THINGS. A lot of things, and I freely talk about what I hate all the time. In another thread a while back, someone said her INFJ friend was 'aggressive' because he did this, but I've never considered myself aggressive for doing this because I regard aggressiveness as more of an in-your-face, obnoxious, rough-and-tumble, forceful way of interacting with others, while my own bitter ranting tends to be much colder and self-contained or something, usually done to people who'll agree with me rather than to the face f someone I hate. I glare at people if they do something I dislike, but I'd never punch or directly insult anyone ever because I hate conflict.

I'd regard 'aggressive' behaviour as a response like "YOU ARE A ****ING **** ****", while my own response to people who annoy me is usually some sarcastic, ridiculous version of what they just did.

So I might be complaining about how people are too insensitive and how hurtful it is to me, for example, to which someone posts telling me to get over myself because I'm such a wimp, etc. I'd regard that as aggressive. I'd probably respond with something like "Oh, this guy is complaining about being hurt! I know! I'll make him feel better by hurting him even more! That's a good idea! I'm glad I'm such a good person!"
Then I'll feel absolutely awful about it and will be scared to read his certainly hurtful reply.
I wonder whether that would be seen as 'aggressive'.
 

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I'm not sure my social anxiety does dominate my mind as much as the desire for a true sense of being 'fully understood' does, though. It certainly gets in the way, but I think a lot of the cause of it is due to circumstance. I lack real social experience due to not really having anywhere that I need to go. As such, much of my fears relate to my own incompetence (probably a 5 thing), or just being too Different to really fit in (a 4 thing).

It could even be said to be Sp-related. Much of my anxiety manifests as a very visceral fear of panic attacks in public places, and the sensations that come with them (such as vomiting). I've also always been a hypochondriac, obsessed with fears about my own health, which have kept me up at night and tormented me for months at a time, but I don't think that I'm an Sp type either. Just highly neurotic and sensitive.

I also wonder whether mental disorders are a result of our types, or whether they emerge somewhat independently despite them. I might start a thread asking people with social anxiety what their instinctual variants are, to see how many choose So as the dominant.

Another sort of strange thing is the fact that I have literally hundreds of fans who follow my game-making work, and I regularly get fan mail from people telling me how amazing they think I am. Surely this is something that a So-dominant person would find highly appealing? I hate it, though; I'm always hoping that every new person will be someone who I have strong chemistry with, but when they're not, I just get frustrated by the idea of interacting with them at all. It's not due to social anxiety or anything; it's just that if I can't have an intimate, 'soul-piercing' conversation with them, I want nothing to do with them. I feel frequently tormented by how many of my fans are these 'undesirable' people, and I've even openly talked about this in a place that they could easily read, which seems like something a So-dominant wouldn't do due to fear of judgement or lack of acceptance or something? I want to attract people to me, but only so then I can hand-pick the few that I actually want to talk to in a meaningful way.

Relationships, too, are something I've seen as an 'all or nothing' kind of thing. I want a 'soul mate' and nothing less, and I hate the idea of people getting partners purely due to social expectation, or as 'arm candy' to show off how successful they are. The only thing that's important to me about a relationship is how deeply we'd be able to connect; how other people feel about my changed status from single to taken is of no interest to me at all.

I see people on forums sometimes saying that they have no friends and how they feel so lonely because of that, but mention their significant other in the same post. This has always seemed bizarre to me, because I feel I could live on the streets without connections to anyone other than someone I was ultra-close to and be happy; having friends and security are desires that always take a back seat, as things that are desirable, *I suppose*, but not 'necessary'. I *need* intense, soul-piercing love to survive, but I don't need friends, status, or physical comfort.

I don't like to rebel or shock or... actually, hmm. I drew this thing recently, which I suppose prioritises my desire to make a point and to question what it is that people accept as normal or fine, and I was fully aware at the time that people might find it uncomfortable, or might argue against it, but I didn't care. I suppose I wanted to 'shake up' how people felt about things, so maybe that's a sign of something.

I'm still drawn to Sx/So over So/Sx, but maybe I just need to see the terms used to describe it from a different angle that fits me better. Or something.
The fact that you desire a one-on-one connection, or the fact that you cannot connect with most people doesn't make you Sx first, just as much as we all need food to survive. Most of us need people too, we are a social animal and therefore we have social instincts.

Intimacy is also crossing boundaries, like being naked, or reveal things and share with someone. Sx is risk taking, sticking your neck out, expose yourself, and maybe even somewhat reckless as mentioned before. I think your boundaries are more your own boundaries, that you have set with Sp /So instinct (which I believe is more oriented on determining boundaries, where So negotiates (interpersonal) boundaries). So we all have those instincts. I can imagine you would rather not have those boundaries, but you don't make the move yourself, for instance with your fans. You are sort of hoping for someone else to come and break that boundary. I was with one of my all time favorite djs a few weeks ago and he establishes an intimate connection, one-on-one both as a whole, with the audience, through music. We even had a nice chat afterwards, and I don't think we need to discuss intimate details to establish such a connection. We already connected during the 4 hour set.


Anyway, this is also why 4Sx is said to be counter-envious and counter-shame, or 'in denial' of it. This doesn't mean 4sx doesn't have any shame or can't be shy, but it is focused on exploring, transgressing or even shifting /expanding those boundaries.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The fact that you desire a one-on-one connection, or the fact that you cannot connect with most people doesn't make you Sx first, just as much as we all need food to survive. Most of us need people too, we are a social animal and therefore we have social instincts.

Intimacy is also crossing boundaries, like being naked, or reveal things and share with someone. It is risk taking, sticking your neck out, expose yourself, and maybe even somewhat reckless as mentioned before. I think your boundaries are more your own boundaries, that you have set with Sp /So instinct (which I believe is more oriented on determining boundaries, where So negotiates (interpersonal) boundaries). So we all have those instincts. I can imagine you would rather not have those boundaries, but you don't make the move yourself, for instance with your fans. You are sort of hoping for someone else to come and break that boundary. I was with one of my all time favorite djs a few weeks ago and he establishes an intimate connection, one-on-one both as a whole, with the audience, through music. We even had a nice chat afterwards, and I don't think we need to discuss intimate details to establish such a connection. We already connected during the 4 hour set.
One of the things that I do most often - and get frustrated that other people don't do - is write at length about my innermost feelings in rather public places. Many people wish to have a 'thick skin' or a shell, which they hide within, showing their inner parts only to those they trust. Or they'll say it's proper or normal to keep your feelings inside, and that those who don't are weird. This is strange and frustrating to me, because I write about myself so freely; people have called me 'brave' and 'courageous' and said they 'admire' me for doing what they couldn't in this way. I have no thick skin or shell; I bare my underbelly for all to see.

I write those things as a sort of lure in the hopes that people will come to me and say "I can really relate to that!" and we could be best buddies and everything, but I rarely approach people directly because I'm worried about getting involved with someone I don't like, and since I dive in so deeply from the very start, I'll have formed what to them might be a really surprisingly close bond, which I'll want to get rid of because they're not perfectly right for me... and my dislike for them would end up being as intense as whatever made me dive in in the first place. I hesitate because of that.

I search around for other people to talk to, but feel very annoyed by how other people *don't* write about their deep innermost feelings. I crave to find other people who open up as I do, who I can latch onto and deeply relate to, but mostly what I see are people talking about shallow events or being really vague and melodramatic about things that happened to them, so I'm reluctant to take the gamble, or I find them really infuriatingly bland and hardly worth approaching at all.

So I don't know about boundaries... Rather, I consider myself extremely open, and I get frustrated when other people aren't open as much as I am.

I wrote many deeply personal posts on my website that my fans read, actually, but eventually had to stop doing it because of how many of them would just attack me or criticise me (they were mostly INTJs who didn't understand the point of emotional venting and expected me to 'toughen up'). I kept going through years of criticism, though, before I got fed up. Lots of drama there!!

Also, there's this site about Sx 4 which I think describes me rather well. Especially these bits:
Fours in general believe that love is by far the most important thing in their lives and the sexual subtype in particular believes that when, and only when, they find the perfect love will they be happy.
The romantic tendency of the Fours comes out when the intimate subtype not only wants to be the person the mate loves the most, but what would make it perfect would be if they were the only person the mate ever loved.
(The thought that any hypothetical girlfriend I might have would have had boyfriends before me torments me a whole lot.)
But when the obstacle is taken away, then the habit of comparing reality to the ideal (which worked fine when I idealized her as she lived in San Francisco) sets in, and I begin to notice that she has shoddy taste in Impressionism, actually listens to Metallica and may have voted for George Bush. How can I possibly live with such a creature? The comparative thinking leads to fault finding as it compares a real person to an ideal.
Interestingly, that same site describes the Sp 4 as the one that's aggressive, so maybe it's just completely wrong!
 

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Also, there's this site about Sx 4 which I think describes me rather well. Especially these bits:

(The thought that any hypothetical girlfriend I might have would have had boyfriends before me torments me a whole lot.)
Well like I said it is not necessarily aggressive in a violent way, but can be. And Sp can be dauntless too yes.

Personally I don't think that romantic hope (for a savior) is particularly 4Sx ish but is something all 4s have (or most had at least for some part of their life). It has more to do with significance. It's the expectation of finding significance through someone else. Not so much for your own intrinsic qualities but in comparison /relation with another. It torments you because you are afraid the other is more significant than you, to the hypothetical boyfriend. Of course not all Fours have this, and it's I think related to 2 more than it is to 1. But I can also imagine a Don Juan type 4sx narcissist.

Again it's not so much about being jealous or not, because people can be So-ish jealous or Sp-ish jealous. (just a sidenote:Sexual jealousy in humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). And I'm Sx and not jealous at all (although I admit that I used to be very much so).
 

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Well like I said it is not necessarily aggressive in a violent way, but can be. And Sp can be dauntless too yes.

Personally I don't think that romantic hope (for a savior) is particularly 4Sx ish but is something all 4s have (or most had at least for some part of their life). It has more to do with significance. It's the expectation of finding significance through someone else. Not so much for your own intrinsic qualities but in comparison /relation with another. It torments you because you are afraid the other is more significant than you, to the hypothetical boyfriend. Of course not all Fours have this, and it's I think related to 2 more than it is to 1. But I can also imagine a Don Juan type 4sx narcissist.

Again it's not so much about being jealous or not, because people can be So-ish jealous or Sp-ish jealous. (just a sidenote:Sexual jealousy in humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). And I'm Sx and not jealous at all (although I admit that I used to be very much so).
I know that many people get jealous for different reasons, but my own reason is because I'd be focusing all of my attention on her like a laser beam, and I'd feel upset and jealous if she was sharing her energy with others rather than giving it all to me. The idea of her having fun with some other guy would make me feel hurt because *I* wanted that experience, not for it to be given to someone else. Like her smiles are currency for which I'm absolutely greedy. It wouldn't feel right or fair if I were pouring all of my energy on her, but she wasn't doing the same to me. Something like that... I'd rather we were laser-beaming eachother, ignoring everything and everyone else.

I know that this is neither good nor healthy, and it's something I intend to tame rather than embrace, but that's the form my jealousy takes. And if you used to be jealous but aren't anymore, maybe one day I'll be the same!

With my first and only girlfriend, I wasn't her first boyfriend. I wasn't worried about her liking him more than me - she actually really hated him and complained viciously about how she wished she'd never met him and actually wished he was dead - but I WAS torn up over the fact that she'd given him her first kiss, because *I* wanted that. The fact that we couldn't have our First Kiss together was really, really hard to bear.

I hear 'clinginess' described as a negative trait a lot, but the idea of having a clingy partner who wants to spend 100% of her time with me actually excites me, because every smile she had would be shared with me. That's what I want when I say 'intensity'. Is this still something that could be described as So/Sx?
 

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One of the things that I do most often - and get frustrated that other people don't do - is write at length about my innermost feelings in rather public places. Many people wish to have a 'thick skin' or a shell, which they hide within, showing their inner parts only to those they trust. Or they'll say it's proper or normal to keep your feelings inside, and that those who don't are weird. This is strange and frustrating to me, because I write about myself so freely; people have called me 'brave' and 'courageous' and said they 'admire' me for doing what they couldn't in this way. I have no thick skin or shell; I bare my underbelly for all to see.

I write those things as a sort of lure in the hopes that people will come to me and say "I can really relate to that!" and we could be best buddies and everything, but I rarely approach people directly because I'm worried about getting involved with someone I don't like, and since I dive in so deeply from the very start, I'll have formed what to them might be a really surprisingly close bond, which I'll want to get rid of because they're not perfectly right for me... and my dislike for them would end up being as intense as whatever made me dive in in the first place. I hesitate because of that.

I search around for other people to talk to, but feel very annoyed by how other people *don't* write about their deep innermost feelings. I crave to find other people who open up as I do, who I can latch onto and deeply relate to, but mostly what I see are people talking about shallow events or being really vague and melodramatic about things that happened to them, so I'm reluctant to take the gamble, or I find them really infuriatingly bland and hardly worth approaching at all.

So I don't know about boundaries... Rather, I consider myself extremely open, and I get frustrated when other people aren't open as much as I am.

I wrote many deeply personal posts on my website that my fans read, actually, but eventually had to stop doing it because of how many of them would just attack me or criticise me (they were mostly INTJs who didn't understand the point of emotional venting and expected me to 'toughen up'). I kept going through years of criticism, though, before I got fed up. Lots of drama there!!

Also, there's this site about Sx 4 which I think describes me rather well. Especially these bits:


(The thought that any hypothetical girlfriend I might have would have had boyfriends before me torments me a whole lot.)


Interestingly, that same site describes the Sp 4 as the one that's aggressive, so maybe it's just completely wrong!
In general I'd say, if you think you are 4sx you are 4sx. It's not about what you are but about what makes you tick. You show 2 sides. On the one hand you sort of look down on people, in the way you criticize them and high expectations. But underneath that you harbor a lot of fear (or shame). Is it really their fault that you cannot connect, or is there anything you can do about it? When I was young, I didn't need enneagram theory to tell me I was jealous, because I could be so jealous I could smash my head against the wall if it would make it stop controlling my mind. So for me the issue at hand was more making sure I wouldn't do it. It didn't make a difference what instinct was relevant here, but what was relevant was that it screwed up my life and it controlled me. So I needed to go deep inside myself to find out what it was that I was so afraid of. And deal with it.
 

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I know that many people get jealous for different reasons, but my own reason is because I'd be focusing all of my attention on her like a laser beam, and I'd feel upset and jealous if she was sharing her energy with others rather than giving it all to me.
You said, 'before' you, which is not 'sharing' energy, or do you mean you want a virgin who never had anyone else?

And what do you mean with 'sharing energy'? You mean attention? Is she allowed to have a hobby, or do sports? Watch TV?
 

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With my first and only girlfriend, I wasn't her first boyfriend. I wasn't worried about her liking him more than me - she actually really hated him and complained viciously about how she wished she'd never met him and actually wished he was dead - but I WAS torn up over the fact that she'd given him her first kiss, because *I* wanted that. The fact that we couldn't have our First Kiss together was really, really hard to bear.
This is more related to 'significance'. It's not so much about being the best or the prettiest (which is more status oriented) but the special meaning it has. It's close, but different.

There was a discussion before recently about 4sx on this thread. I could link to my post, but I suggest you read the different opinions about this issue. I don't claim to know the truth, but that's my view on it.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...an-8-what-about-8s-being-more-4-than-4-a.html
 

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I hear 'clinginess' described as a negative trait a lot, but the idea of having a clingy partner who wants to spend 100% of her time with me actually excites me, because every smile she had would be shared with me. That's what I want when I say 'intensity'. Is this still something that could be described as So/Sx?
I'd say clinginess is more of a strategy of insecure (preoccupied) attachment. What you also sort of say is that she is 100% responsible for you feeling significant, and there are many reasons why it's not a bad idea to avoid this. It can lead to emotional dependency, addiction/ preoccupation, and even junkie behavior. Whenever supply is in danger, becoming truly all-or-nothing issues. I've been there. That was before I wanted to smash my head against the wall, lol. But to be honest, it was both Love and War. Yes pretty intense. In that sense both passion and aggression (jealousy) is the same (sx) energy, just a different polarity.
 

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This is more related to 'significance'. It's not so much about being the best or the prettiest (which is more status oriented) but the special meaning it has. It's close, but different.

There was a discussion before recently about 4sx on this thread. I could link to my post, but I suggest you read the different opinions about this issue. I don't claim to know the truth, but that's my view on it.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...an-8-what-about-8s-being-more-4-than-4-a.html
I've read through some of the posts in that thread, and I can relate very strongly to the post by kaleidoscope on the first page. She quoted something and bolded parts of it that fit her strongly; I'll do the same:

Infatuation. In the average range, Sexual Fours most exemplify the romanticism, intensity, and longing for a rescuer that characterize this type. They can be sweetly vulnerable and impressionable, but also aggressive and dynamic, especially in their self-expression*. There is an assertive, seemingly extroverted component to Sexual Fours, and unlike the other two variants, they are unlikely to let their romantic fantasies remain fantasies for long. Often turbulent and stormy, their emotional lives revolve around the person they are attracted to. Intense feelings of admiration, longing, and hatred for the object of desire can all coexist. Sensual and seductive, they can also be jealous and possessive like Twos, and they want to be the only person that matters in the other's life. Sexual Fours often have severe doubts about their own desirability, so they strive for accomplishments that will make them acceptable to the other - being a great artist or star - while being resentful of those who achieve those things.

Idealizing the other can quickly shift to rejecting them for their slightest flaws. At the same time, Sexual Fours are often attracted to people who are, for one reason or another, unavailable. They may spend a great deal of time longing to have the desirable other to themselves and detesting anyone who has the other's attention.
I imagine that personal quirks and experiences are a huge factor with things like this, and I'd bet that a 4w3 Sx and a 4w5 Sx would have big differences, particularly regarding how extroverted and showy about it they are (since 3 tends towards displays while 5 is very introverted, right?). I also imagine that an ENFJ Sx 4 would be more likely to flirt with someone to 'make their fantasies real' than a shy INFJ would.

chimeric, whose signature says So/Sx, couldn't relate to that post at all, and says she was driven bonkers by that kind of behaviour.

I only take issue with the aggressive/assertive bit, because of how I perceive those words. chimeric also said type 8 is the least like her, which I also feel. I 'come on strong', but I don't associate at all with the forceful, choleric confidence that type 8 makes me think of.

When I was with my girlfriend, I didn't know about Myers-Briggs or the enneagram or any of this, but I really, really wish I had, because I used to obsess over our differences (I'm INFJ and she was INFP, though I didn't know that then), and my intense and emotional reactions to her doing things I wouldn't have done myself could probably be described as 'turbulent and stormy'. I loved and hated her with equal intensity, and my 'moodiness' was one of the reasons that I now speak of her in the past tense. We were together for five or six years, though, and it was much, much worse at the start; I got better with it over time, as I grew and got used to being in a relationship. Ultimately it ended due to being long-long-distance and impractical to maintain.

I think a whole lot about how jealous I was, though, and learning about things like typology really helps me to understand the reasons, and hopefully to avoid behaving as stormily in future.

You said, 'before' you, which is not 'sharing' energy, or do you mean you want a virgin who never had anyone else?

And what do you mean with 'sharing energy'? You mean attention? Is she allowed to have a hobby, or do sports? Watch TV?
kaleidoscope said in her post:

It seems to me like SX 4s have a stronger line to type 2 (or at least that's my experience). If I had a say in this, I wouldn't want my SO to have loved anyone but me.. ever. I have to stop myself from thinking about their past, the people they were with before me, while at the same time needing to know that I'm the best they've ever had. The internal comparison in that sense can be downright obsessive, almost a compulsion.
It's the same for me... Or it was when I was in a relationship, anyway. I can relate to that VERY strongly. In fact, it's weird and sort of relieving seeing someone else voice something that's been such a powerful part of my own mind.

Much of this line of thinking/feeling is internal; I wouldn't be completely domineering over any hypothetical girlfriend I might end up having. She wouldn't be 'allowed' to have hobbies because I don't feel I'd be in charge of her; she could do what she liked. However, I'd feel less close to her the more things she did that I couldn't relate to or share with her. I'd want to do EVERYTHING with her, and I'd love it if she'd want - and I mean genuinely *want* rather than 'agree' - to do everything with me. I hate and avoid sport of all kinds, for example, so if she was into that, I'd feel like we were 'COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE!!!' and would be tormented by it. This was touched on by the bolded bit above, too; rejecting them for minor faults.

Oh, and I certainly have the preoccupied attachment style (which I've known about for a while, and which explains a lot too). It seems like something that would improve through experience; my jealousy with that girlfriend was really intense because she had a bunch of guy friends but I had zero friends in total (due to moving country and a bunch of other stuff). If I had a balanced social life, I feel that my own 'clinginess' would subside at least somewhat. Knowing that she was off giggling with and hugging other guys while I sat on the other side of the planet, waiting months for physical contact with her and with no friends of my own, certainly intensified the jealousy.

But even so, I do love the idealised thought of sharing every experience with someone who *also* wants to do the same. I hate the idea of forcing someone into it and suffocating them, but I like the thought of making someone genuinely happy by being that close to them, if that's what they want too. I know that's an idealised fantasy though; it's not a realistic expectation that I'd force someone to fit themselves into at the expense of their own emotional wellbeing.

ANYWAY. I think I'm fairly sure I'm Sx/So now, though I still take issue with the idea of them being aggressive and eightish!
 

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I've read through some of the posts in that thread, and I can relate very strongly to the post by kaleidoscope on the first page. She quoted something and bolded parts of it that fit her strongly; I'll do the same:



I imagine that personal quirks and experiences are a huge factor with things like this, and I'd bet that a 4w3 Sx and a 4w5 Sx would have big differences, particularly regarding how extroverted and showy about it they are (since 3 tends towards displays while 5 is very introverted, right?). I also imagine that an ENFJ Sx 4 would be more likely to flirt with someone to 'make their fantasies real' than a shy INFJ would.

chimeric, whose signature says So/Sx, couldn't relate to that post at all, and says she was driven bonkers by that kind of behaviour.

I only take issue with the aggressive/assertive bit, because of how I perceive those words. chimeric also said type 8 is the least like her, which I also feel. I 'come on strong', but I don't associate at all with the forceful, choleric confidence that type 8 makes me think of.

When I was with my girlfriend, I didn't know about Myers-Briggs or the enneagram or any of this, but I really, really wish I had, because I used to obsess over our differences (I'm INFJ and she was INFP, though I didn't know that then), and my intense and emotional reactions to her doing things I wouldn't have done myself could probably be described as 'turbulent and stormy'. I loved and hated her with equal intensity, and my 'moodiness' was one of the reasons that I now speak of her in the past tense. We were together for five or six years, though, and it was much, much worse at the start; I got better with it over time, as I grew and got used to being in a relationship. Ultimately it ended due to being long-long-distance and impractical to maintain.

I think a whole lot about how jealous I was, though, and learning about things like typology really helps me to understand the reasons, and hopefully to avoid behaving as stormily in future.



kaleidoscope said in her post:



It's the same for me... Or it was when I was in a relationship, anyway. I can relate to that VERY strongly. In fact, it's weird and sort of relieving seeing someone else voice something that's been such a powerful part of my own mind.

Much of this line of thinking/feeling is internal; I wouldn't be completely domineering over any hypothetical girlfriend I might end up having. She wouldn't be 'allowed' to have hobbies because I don't feel I'd be in charge of her; she could do what she liked. However, I'd feel less close to her the more things she did that I couldn't relate to or share with her. I'd want to do EVERYTHING with her, and I'd love it if she'd want - and I mean genuinely *want* rather than 'agree' - to do everything with me. I hate and avoid sport of all kinds, for example, so if she was into that, I'd feel like we were 'COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE!!!' and would be tormented by it. This was touched on by the bolded bit above, too; rejecting them for minor faults.

Oh, and I certainly have the preoccupied attachment style (which I've known about for a while, and which explains a lot too). It seems like something that would improve through experience; my jealousy with that girlfriend was really intense because she had a bunch of guy friends but I had zero friends in total (due to moving country and a bunch of other stuff). If I had a balanced social life, I feel that my own 'clinginess' would subside at least somewhat. Knowing that she was off giggling with and hugging other guys while I sat on the other side of the planet, waiting months for physical contact with her and with no friends of my own, certainly intensified the jealousy.

But even so, I do love the idealised thought of sharing every experience with someone who *also* wants to do the same. I hate the idea of forcing someone into it and suffocating them, but I like the thought of making someone genuinely happy by being that close to them, if that's what they want too. I know that's an idealised fantasy though; it's not a realistic expectation that I'd force someone to fit themselves into at the expense of their own emotional wellbeing.

ANYWAY. I think I'm fairly sure I'm Sx/So now, though I still take issue with the idea of them being aggressive and eightish!
Well, I thought you would which is why I directed you to the OP. And I'm not saying I can't relate to it, because like I said I have had my episodes of clinginess and jealousy, and even looked out for a savior. I mean I wrote songs about it, not even knowing about the enneagram. For many people here the challenge is to find out 'what they are' where for me it's perfectly clear it was who I used to be. And I can tell you I wasn't even aware of my aggression and attempt to control half of the time. It also simply didn't fit my self-image. Aggression, that's what hooligans do right? But aggression is also saying 'if you do that you don't really love me' or 'if you really loved me you would...' Putting the other under emotional pressure, to get what you want. And I've spend almost half of my life with a 4 who wouldn't see herself as an aggressive person. She collects elephants and dolphins and hates doing sports and competition, but nevertheless is very competitive, can be very fierce and will do what she can to get what she wants. Validating yourself by devalidating others is also aggression or violence, in a way. In terms of 'Significance' it is, for sure. You don't want to be the invalidated person, because you would feel 'attacked'. Then there is social aggression, like excluding people or speaking badly about someone, or trying making the other jealous, which was something the other 4 ex loved to do (to see if she was still significant to me). I read somewhere this is not unfamiliar to 4s.
 

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Well, I thought you would which is why I directed you to the OP. And I'm not saying I can't relate to it, because like I said I have had my episodes of clinginess and jealousy, and even looked out for a savior. I mean I wrote songs about it, not even knowing about the enneagram. For many people here the challenge is to find out 'what they are' where for me it's perfectly clear it was who I used to be. And I can tell you I wasn't even aware of my aggression and attempt to control half of the time. It also simply didn't fit my self-image. Aggression, that's what hooligans do right? But aggression is also saying 'if you do that you don't really love me' or 'if you really loved me you would...' Putting the other under emotional pressure. And I've spend almost half of my life with a 4 who wouldn't see herself as an aggressive person. She collects elephants and dolphins and hates doing sports and competition, but nevertheless is very competitive, can be very fierce and will do what she can to get what she wants. Validating yourself by devalidating others is also aggression or violence, in a way. In terms of 'Significance' it is, for sure. You don't want to be the invalidated person, because you would feel 'attacked'.
I suppose I just wish there was a different word for that kind of thing, because 'aggression' does come with all the baggage, all the connotations of meatheaded thugs beating people up, or obnoxious bully types smashing things and shouting at people. I can't even raise my voice, and I literally don't swear! I've never shied away from calling myself 'jealous' or 'clingy', though, and I suppose I used those words to mean what 'aggression' is being used to mean here. If I were to describe myself as 'aggressive', a casual listener would get entirely the wrong impression, I think. Oh, the limitations of language!

From this and a few other threads I've been reading, though, it seems that INFJs and type 4s like to consider themselves 'submissive' and 'gentle' and 'inoffensive' and things like that... even when their actual behaviour is much firmer. I suppose I'm one of those. I've never considered it a lack of self-awareness; rather, I suppose it's more like choosing nuanced definitions for certain terms while rejecting others. I suppose it's why one person would describe their INFJ friend as 'aggressive' for doing something he himself would never use that word for.

I wonder whether other Sx 4s embrace the idea of being 'aggressive', though!
 
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I suppose I just wish there was a different word for that kind of thing, because 'aggression' does come with all the baggage, all the connotations of meatheaded thugs beating people up, or obnoxious bully types smashing things and shouting at people. I can't even raise my voice, and I literally don't swear! I've never shied away from calling myself 'jealous' or 'clingy', though, and I suppose I used those words to mean what 'aggression' is being used to mean here. If I were to describe myself as 'aggressive', a casual listener would get entirely the wrong impression, I think. Oh, the limitations of language!

From this and a few other threads I've been reading, though, it seems that INFJs and type 4s like to consider themselves 'submissive' and 'gentle' and 'inoffensive' and things like that... even when their actual behaviour is much firmer. I suppose I'm one of those. I've never considered it a lack of self-awareness; rather, I suppose it's more like choosing nuanced definitions for certain terms while rejecting others. I suppose it's why one person would describe their INFJ friend as 'aggressive' for doing something he himself would never use that word for. But aggression is transgression of boundaries, in a negative way. And people who are self-absorbed are often not aware of other people's boundaries, because they are too much focused on themselves.

I wonder whether other Sx 4s embrace the idea of being 'aggressive', though!
It depends. In my case I didn't see it as aggression or dominance but rather self-defense sort of (like defensive people can act very aggressive, and often you need to make them aware of them doing it, or they don't mean to -as if good intentions is all that matters). Also one may start with a feeling of inferiority whether it is hidden, or in denial or not. Although disturbed or perceived threatened self-esteem is often related to (physical) violence. So at the time I wouldn't have been fond to admit it. But bottom line aggression is transgression of (other people's) boundaries in a negative sense, and people who are self-absorbed are often not much aware of other people's boundaries, because they are too much occupied by themselves. For sure it wasn't fun becoming aware of it!

I wouldn't underestimate psychological aggression, though. I've known someone who was very dominant in the way she could guilt trip others, while playing the victim. Even done it myself, actually. It's unfair as a fight, because few people want to attack a victim.

Edit: I also like to stress this is not about 4 or Sx or 4sx being either good or bad. I don't think you can say that about any type or instinct.
 
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