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Type 4 - Type 9 : disambiguation

1667 Views 6 Replies 3 Participants Last post by  nicoloco90
Type 4 and type 9 are often confused with each-other. They usually have a negative self-esteem, are withdrawn, depressive and rather self-aware. The purpose of the text is to present the two fixations in a similar way. It is mostly focussed on 4 and 9w1, since type 1 introduces a great similitude between the two types.

The text does not describe the types in a flattering way. It is important before reading it to remember a type is not you. No matter if you are a 4 or a 9, identifying to one of these types would be masochistic. It is only meant to identify the states of "trance" (where the type seems to rule the behaviour and thoughts) and encourage you to get out of it.

Type 4: envy, melancholy, separate identity

The passion of type 4, envy is a painful emotional state, tied to a subjective sense that someone or everyone else enjoys connections, success or pleasures. To a 4, it feels that other’s more worldly or simple nature allows to know happiness, thanks to something he does not have. It leads to an asphyxiating sadness and a painful dislike for what allows others to enjoy the rewards of life. A 4 does not feel less valuable, but envy leads to identify with the originality that defines him (as opposed to others) and he believes he can relate with others and get involved in life through this originality only. A sad and sticky feeling called melancholy invades the chest.

Envy is not a thought, like if you were wondering "are these people happier than me?" or “what do they have I do not have?”. Sometimes you dislike people because they misbehave, you are angry at them because you are in a bad mood, they intrude in your yard or get what you deserve. This is resentment (type 1), not envy. Envy is tied to others having (by their very nature) access to something while you don't, and 4s are stuck in a comparison between what defines their originality, what they have access to, as opposed to what others have in common and have access to. This feeling is made of sadness and shame.

Since originality is the source of a painful identity, a wound that cannot be ignored, it soon appears as a deficiency, not as a disability at anything but as a flaw in one’s innate nature. It is impossible to pinpoint what this deficiency is, and a 4 may only find flaws about himself everyone could have. Since a 4 “knows” he must be different for some reason, he starts digging his feelings, analysing the mysterious source of what makes him different. As it happens, he loses touch with other sides of life (practical, ordinary…) such as responsibilities, relating or taking care of daily needs. Melancholy invades everything and turns into emotional neediness. Shame now has a good reason to exist. In this state, self-indulgence, and self-defeating start to cover the place. Since 4s rarely experience joy, well-being, or even pleasure, it sounds like self-indulgence could be justified.

Note: the previous paragraph is the most likely to be confused with type 9. 9s may have a similar kind of introspection in search for an identity (it is a form of seeking). 9s try successive identifications like if the answer to "who am I ?" was sought out there.

On the positive side, seeing oneself compared to others also means analysing universals such as culture, art, spirituality, or human nature. 4s often experience a tendency to relate this originality to a part of the self of a higher nature. In a way, not only 4s do it, 9s can relate to higher spiritual realities, universals, or aspirations, 7s to elitist cultural elements, 1s to higher standards. But a 4 tends to desire a high ideal of human nature (I am “elite”), that both him and others fail to achieve. It starts to appear as an image projected to the world, and some people are attracted by it (everybody longs to access to something higher). There is always an inner sense that it is threatened to be revealed as inauthentic, as an image and any sense of a personal identity seems to be grounded in this illusion. On the one hand, there is no mystery to 4s that people project a false image, sometimes in a more obvious way. This does not lead to indifference or mistrust, just to emphasize the difference with others. On the other hand, envy leads to a sort of competition. 4s have a vital and slightly vengeful desire to prove that their originality can defeat the ordinary ways of others.

It must be pondered by a few elements:
  • 4s are usually honest and reasonable in speech
  • 4s rarely if ever self-depreciate outwardly
  • beyond self-absorption, 4s are open to others and connect to other's realities
  • identification with originality and believing more originality is the only way out is mostly unconscious, 4s rarely try willingly to be or do something original
  • Seeing melancholy as a useful state for creation is the sign of not being a 4
  • Daily activities, personal interests, the act of creating usually do not rely on the fixation on “identity” or “originality”.
Type 9: sloth, indolence, disillusionment
This describes mostly a 9w1 (elements from the wing may not be well separated).

The passion of type 9 is sloth. Sloth is an inner resistance to be fully present, an indifference and a certain inner haze or confusion. To a 9, nature, people, or achievements appear at times as having magical qualities, as a reminiscence of a blissful mysterious past. But as he needs to awake to a harsh reality, a 9 feels that love does not really exist. Everyone is bound to be ignored, neglected, insignificant in the grand scheme of things, there is a sense that his presence, individuality, desires, and worldview do not really matter. It comes with an anger whose intensity seems hard to face and needs to be shut down, leading to a laid-back attitude. 9s experience a mentally numb and dreamy state known as indolence.

Sloth is not always “not doing much”, a lack of productivity or procrastination. Indolence may sometimes be passivity or sluggishness, but it shows mainly as a tendency to be blind or indifferent to disturbing events. This defence is mostly unconscious. It does not make feelings disappear and 9s are not emotionally flat because anger soon manifests into matters unrelated to the disturbance that caused it, emotions start to appear as unexplained cyclothymia, moods becoming difficult to relate to events. 9s are angrier than the average person, no matter if they notice it or not.

9s start to forget their own agenda and since attention seems incompatible with peace or comfort, they invest their energy and curiosity into secondary matters. Any information remains fuzzy enough to be neglected. The absence of a personal agenda leads to merge with others who provide a sense of focus and purpose. 9s tend to be focused on other’s perspectives: it is easier to use someone else’s perspective as a substitute. At any time, they can assume they misunderstood something: no need to take any information into account. This allows to ignore whatever fact they could have noticed. 9s soon appear to be stubborn and obsessive while indecisive at the same time. While they still have a good nature and appreciate the simple pleasures of life, sloth starts to consume energy, shadows their strongest impulses and they have little energy to do anything.

Their avoidance of clear-cut ideas is in part related to a forgotten connection to spirituality: mystical realities cannot be captured by the rational mind; it requires a kind of openness that a purely intellectual mind cannot reach. Since 9s know how it feels to be nothing, invisible, deprived of attention, they often develop a non-judgmental goodness and friendly ear for the outcasts or people’s unrecognized perspectives. This mimics 4s being attracted by the pain of others. 9s instinctive knowledge that the ego is false allows to keep others more grounded, guilt-free, and modest. Their attitude towards others mixes an avoidance of conflict and a desire to protect people from a sense of inferiority they know too well. But since it is difficult to recognize an innate value to themselves, their gentleness and involvement remains limited. On the other hand, merging with cultural elements allows an unusual access to universal truths or values.

It must be pondered by a few elements:
  • 9s seem to be innocent, good, and truthful but their denial can be felt as manipulative
  • 9 is “the ego of having no ego” but 9s know they have an ego
  • sloth and denial cause 9s to avoid facts but 9s are often the most sensible and realistic persons
  • A sense of nothingness does not prevent access to excellence. In most disciplines where excellence can be measured (sports, hard science, performing classical music, classical dance…) the bests are usually 9s
  • 9s are often opinionated (more than 4s)
  • 9s have the deepest access to truth and humanity.
Common traits

As the root of all fixations, everybody knows sloth and disillusionment. Disillusionment and sloth create sadness, but it comes from the gut while melancholy comes from the chest.

4s and 9s usually appear soft, gentle, and non-assertive. 4s and 9w1s share a connection to type 1. If the sentiments from their 1ness are compatible, they may agree about what is important as opposed to the standards of the society or about the little tyrant they would like to kill. The 1ish vibe and energy involved in it is very similar: standing against the word. They may share a lot of patterns such as moodiness, judgement, dissatisfaction, emotional intensity.... These traits are a mix of type 1 and:
  • 9’s cyclothymic tendencies, disillusionment, and non-conformism (non-conformism is mainly defined as "disagreeing with the world")
  • 4’s focus on feelings and being the contrary of others
Compared to a core 1, a 4 or a 9 appears as self-indulgent, neither aggressively nor abusively. A 4 getting more fixated, indulging in dreams he knows to be unrealistic, in frustration and sadness, leaves his 1ness in a semi-conscious state, and it soon appears as moodiness, intolerance and touchiness about ordinary matters. For 9s, it is harder to explain. A 9 unaware of sloth may at times demand recognition or react unpredictably to criticism. This reaction appears to be related to 9’s blindness and to a personal history of being overlooked.

A similitude exists between envy and merging. A 9 may for example get a feeling of wonder at someone else’s perspective, intelligence, or charisma with an impulse to merge. He may remember his own insignificance at the same time. This leads to something like “I wish I was like you”. It often involves resentment (1) and scepticism (9) making it sound like envy. Envy cannot be expressed meaningfully or directly, 4s cannot express anything that sounds like envy, they only feel it and act out of it. The clearest expression of something that sounds like envy is 9’s self-depreciation and idealization of someone else.

When trying to tell 4s from 9s, it must be emphasized that originality is not inferiority. As a 4 perceives what he envies, he does not think he has an absence of qualities, personal value, or capabilities. He just feels ashamed that they are not the same as other’s or not what they should be. Instead type 9 comes with a deep inferiority complex: it is often perceived as an anger against the world for being the cause of his sense of inferiority.

A few resources
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
You should do this for every type, it was really good to look over.
Type 4 and type 9 are often confused with each-other. They usually have a negative self-esteem, are withdrawn, depressive and rather self-aware. The purpose of the text is to present the two fixations in a similar way. It is mostly focussed on 4 and 9w1, since type 1 introduce a great similitude between the two types.

The text does not describe the types in a flattering way. It is important before reading it to remember a type is not you. No matter if you are a 4 or a 9, identifying to one of these types would be masochistic. It is only meant to identify the states of "trance" (where the type seems to rule the behaviour and thoughts) and encourage you to get out of it.

Type 4: envy, melancholy, separate identity

The passion of type 4, envy is a painful emotional state, tied to a subjective sense that someone or everyone else enjoys connections, success or pleasures. To a 4, it feels that other’s more earthy or simple nature allows to know happiness, thanks to abilities he does not have. It leads to an asphyxiating sadness and a painful dislike for what allows others to enjoy the rewards of life. A 4 does not feel less valuable, but envy leads to identify with the originality that defines him (as opposed to others) and he believes he can relate with others and understand himself through this originality only. A sad and sticky feeling called melancholy invades the chest.

Envy is not a thought, like if you were wondering "are these people happier than me?" or “what do they have I do not have?”. Sometimes you dislike people because they misbehave, you are angry at them because you are in a bad mood, they intrude in your yard or get what you deserve. This is resentment (type 1), not envy. Envy is tied to others having (by their very nature) access to something while you don't, and 4s are stuck in a comparison between what defines their originality, what they have access to, as opposed to what others have in common and have access to. This feeling is made of sadness and shame.

Since originality is the source of a painful identity, a wound that cannot be ignored, it soon appears as a deficiency, not as a disability at anything but as a flaw in one’s innate nature. It is impossible to pinpoint what this deficiency is, and a 4 may only find flaws about himself everyone could have. Since a 4 “knows” he must be different for some reason, he starts digging his feelings, analysing the mysterious source of what makes him different. As it happens, he loses touch with other sides of life (practical, ordinary…) such as responsibilities, relating or taking care of daily needs. Melancholy invades everything and turns into emotional neediness. Shame now has a good reason to exist. In this state, self-indulgence, and self-defeating start to cover the place. Since 4s rarely experience joy, well-being, or even pleasure, it sounds like self-indulgence could be justified.

Note: the previous paragraph is the most likely to be confused with type 9. 9s may have a similar kind of introspection in search for an identity (it is a form of seeking).

On the positive side, seeing oneself compared to others also means analysing universals such as culture, art, spirituality, or human nature. 4s often experience a tendency to relate this originality to a part of the self of a higher nature. In a way, not only 4s do it, 9s can relate to higher spiritual realities, universals, or aspirations, 7s to elitist cultural elements, 1s to higher standards. But a 4 tends to desire a high ideal of human nature (I am “elite”), that both him and others fail to achieve. It starts to appear as an image projected to the world, and some people are attracted by it (everybody longs to access to something higher). There is always an inner sense that it is threatened to be revealed as inauthentic, as an image and any sense of a personal identity seems to be grounded in this illusion. On the one hand, there is no mystery to 4s that people project a false image, sometimes in a more obvious way. This does not lead to indifference or mistrust, just to emphasize the difference with others. On the other hand, envy leads to a sort of competition. 4s have a vital and slightly vengeful desire to prove that their originality can defeat the ordinary ways of others.

It must be pondered by a few elements:
  • 4s are usually honest and reasonable in speech
  • 4s rarely if ever self-depreciate outwardly
  • beyond self-absorption, 4s are open to others and connect to other's realities
  • identification with originality and believing more originality is the only way out is mostly unconscious, 4s rarely try willingly to be or do something original
  • Seeing melancholy as a useful state for creation is the sign of not being a 4
  • Daily activities, personal interests, the act of creating usually do not rely on the fixation on “identity” or “originality”.
Type 9: sloth, indolence, disillusionment
This describes mostly a 9w1 (elements from the wing may not be well separated).

The passion of type 9 is sloth. Sloth is an inner resistance to be fully present, an indifference and a certain inner haze or confusion. To a 9, nature, people, or achievements appear at times as having magical qualities, as a reminiscence of a blissful mysterious past. But as he needs to awake to a harsh reality, a 9 feels that love does not really exist. Everyone is bound to be ignored, neglected, insignificant in the grand scheme of things, there is a sense that his presence, individuality, desires, and worldview do not really matter. It comes with an anger whose intensity seems hard to face and needs to be shut down, leading to a laid-back attitude. 9s experience a mentally numb and dreamy state known as indolence.

Sloth is not always “not doing much”, a lack of productivity or procrastination. Indolence may sometimes be passivity or sluggishness, but it shows mainly as a tendency to be blind or indifferent to disturbing facts. This defence is mostly unconscious. It does not make feelings disappear and 9s are not emotionally flat because anger soon manifests into matters unrelated to the disturbance that caused it, emotions start to appear as unexplained cyclothymia, moods becoming difficult to relate to events. 9s are angrier than the average person, no matter if they notice it or not.

9s start to forget their own agenda and since attention seems incompatible with peace or comfort, they invest their energy and curiosity into secondary matters. Any information remains fuzzy enough to be neglected. The absence of a personal agenda leads to merge with others who provide a sense of focus and purpose. 9s tend to be focused on other’s perspectives: it is easier to use someone else’s perspective as a substitute. At any time, they can assume they misunderstood something: no need to take any information into account. This allows to ignore whatever fact they could have noticed. 9s soon appear to be stubborn and obsessive while indecisive at the same time. While they still have a good nature and appreciate the simple pleasures of life, sloth starts to consume energy, shadows their strongest impulses and they have little energy to do anything.

Their avoidance of clear-cut ideas is in part related to a forgotten connection to spirituality: mystical realities cannot be captured by the rational mind; it requires a kind of openness that a purely intellectual mind cannot reach. Since 9s know how it feels to be nothing, invisible, deprived of attention, they often develop a non-judgmental goodness and friendly ear for the outcasts or people’s unrecognized perspectives. This mimics 4s being attracted by the pain of others. 9s instinctive knowledge that the ego is false allows to keep others more grounded, guilt-free, and modest. Their attitude towards others mixes an avoidance of conflict and a desire to protect people from a sense of inferiority they know too well. But since it is difficult to recognize an innate value to themselves, their gentleness and involvement remains limited. On the other hand, merging with cultural elements allows an unusual access to universal truths or values.

It must be pondered by a few elements:
  • 9s seem to be innocent, good, and truthful but their denial can be felt as manipulative
  • 9 is “the ego of having no ego” but 9s know they have an ego
  • sloth and denial cause 9s to avoid facts but 9s are often the most sensible and realistic persons
  • A sense of nothingness does not prevent access to excellence. In most disciplines where excellence can be measured (sports, hard science, performing classical music, classical dance…) the bests are usually 9s
  • 9s are often opinionated (more than 4s)
  • 9s have the deepest access to truth and humanity.
Common traits

As the root of all fixations, everybody knows sloth and disillusionment. Disillusionment and sloth create sadness, but it comes from the gut while melancholy comes from the chest.

4s and 9s usually appear soft, gentle, and non-assertive. 4s and 9w1s share a connection to type 1. If the sentiments from their 1ness are compatible, they may agree about what is important as opposed to the standards of the society or about the little tyrant they would like to kill. The 1ish vibe and energy involved in it is very similar: standing against the word. They may share a lot of patterns such as moodiness, judgement, dissatisfaction, emotional intensity.... These traits are a mix of type 1 and:
  • 9’s cyclotomic tendencies, disillusionment, and non-conformism
  • 4’s focus on feelings and being the contrary of others
Compared to a core 1, a 4 or a 9 appears as self-indulgent, neither aggressively nor abusively. A 4 getting more fixated, indulging in dreams he knows to be unrealistic, in frustration and sadness, leaves his 1ness in a semi-conscious state, and it soon appears as moodiness, intolerance and touchiness about ordinary matters. For 9s, it is harder to explain. A 9 unaware of sloth may at times demand recognition or react unpredictably to criticism. This reaction appears to be related to 9’s blindness and to a personal history of being undermined.

A similitude exists between envy and merging. A 9 may for example get a feeling of wonder at someone else’s perspective, intelligence, or charisma with an impulse to merge. He may remember his own insignificance at the same time. This leads to something like “I wish I was like you”. It often involves resentment (1) and scepticism (9) making it sound like envy. Envy cannot be expressed meaningfully or directly, 4s cannot express anything that sounds like envy, they only feel it and act out of it. The clearest expression of something that sounds like envy is 9’s self-depreciation and idealization of someone else.

When trying to tell 4s from 9s, it must be emphasized that originality is not inferiority. As a 4 perceives what he envies, he does not think he has an absence of qualities, personal value, or capabilities. He just feels ashamed that they are not the same as other’s or not what they should be. Instead type 9 comes with a deep inferiority complex: it is often perceived as an anger against the world for being the cause of his sense of inferiority.

A few resources
  • Like
Reactions: skyboy
Thanks !

I did it for type 1 : Type 1 and connection to type 1

I don't think I would be able to describe any other type this way. I have the (partial) inner perspective for 4 and 1, have collected a lot of insights from 9s over the years (who did or did not know they were 9s). No other type have such an access to their "unspeakable" inner reality without massive reframing (except maybe 5). Maybe I'll come with a description of type 7 one day, but it will be more from an external eye.

Anyway, I decided to leave for a while.
You should do this for every type, it was really good to look over.
  • Like
Reactions: Angry-Spaghetti
Awesome, you can do it mate. :)
Thanks !

I did it for type 1 : Type 1 and connection to type 1

I don't think I would be able to describe any other type this way. I have the (partial) inner perspective for 4 and 1, have collected a lot of insights from 9s over the years (who did or did not know they were 9s). No other type have such an access to their "unspeakable" inner reality without massive reframing (except maybe 5). Maybe I'll come with a description of type 7 one day, but it will be more from an external eye.

Anyway, I decided to leave for a while.
I am hoping to ask you a few questions about 9 and if others in your experience have had similar situations.

I currently feel like time is going on in my mind at a very high speed but the world around me is separate. It can feel like I've gained familiarity with something that is only a few days old but it feels like it's been years for me. I constantly feel that I have already lived 60 + years in my own mind, and its not until I look back that I see that I'm only 22. All my memories seem like they're just put there as a part of a fabrication of some sorts. I know I will have more perspective as I age in real life but it's just trippy to have already been through life.
Thanks !

I did it for type 1 : Type 1 and connection to type 1

I don't think I would be able to describe any other type this way. I have the (partial) inner perspective for 4 and 1, have collected a lot of insights from 9s over the years (who did or did not know they were 9s). No other type have such an access to their "unspeakable" inner reality without massive reframing (except maybe 5). Maybe I'll come with a description of type 7 one day, but it will be more from an external eye.

Anyway, I decided to leave for a while.
If I understand you well, you consider the possibility of being a 9 and wonder if this could be consistent with a sense of high speed mind, feeling your mind works faster than the external world (while 9s are often described as sluggish or slow). And since you mentioned 7w8 recently, I guess you also wonder if this "manic" state (it may not be really manic but you see what I mean) could be type 7, because type 7 is the manic type by excellence.

Is it ok if I rephrase your question like this ?

(I know I don't exactly say what you explain, it's just to relate it to the Enneagram, your inner experience can never be fully captured by a type, the type is only the ego)
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Reactions: Angry-Spaghetti
@skyboy well put.

As a enneagram type 4, I can say that most of it was very relateable and ... at thus times ... painfully confrontational to read (which means the text is accurate with respects to the known theories ... I suppose).

Envy is a very strange phenomenon. Like the text laid out, I am not jealous at what other people have intrinsically, but I definitely envy the way it makes them feel fulfilled. Of course, this is only my own perception and that may very well be untrue. But i dont know,.... I mean, I honestly can't remember my last moment I laughed so hard that I peed my pants a little. Nor do i remember the last time that I felt almost entirely at peace with my overall current state of life experience. That must be ages ago. And I know how it feels, but most of the time it is just not there.

Typical 4 stuff. Just gotta ride those waves and process them =p
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