Personality Cafe banner
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
@Jawz
Ya, a good plan is required going in. Finding the job that you could have pride in and also be very capable of doing isn't that easy. I struggled with this myself in my early college days and dropped out only to return determined later. What do you want to do in life? What are you capable of doing? What options are available? and so on... A lot of good answers are required for those things.

I'm sorry to hear that this stuff weighs on you so much, and the surgery won't help this issue any. On the bright side, if you put your mind to it and are physically capable of it then you'll do your best and most likely succeed, just gotta find your spot. Perhaps going back to school to help achieve a position which fits you best is required. I would try to be more optimistic about the future.
 
@Jawz

I've been reading through your journals, and I honestly can't tell what your core type is, but the following statement stood out:

Jawz said:
Chaos, love, self-image and self-loathing are four themes that are ever present in my existence - but the pattern has always been that I've always found my self-worth through my doings, being busy ... living up to a high ideal of being the best, having the best, owning the best .. speaking about the best [even if I couldn't financially afford the best]
I think identifying the underlying/ever-present themes in one's life is very important in this process, and what you said above is important. Those themes may suggest 4w3, as someone else here said. Fours value beauty, aesthetics, and image. As for the "keeping busy" part, do you feel that this strategy is, in part, to maintain an image (that's the impression I got, but I don't want to just assume)? That said, the core belief of a 4 is essentially that one must be unique in order to be secure. Have you ever felt different from others? Have you ever had a strong desire to be an individual? How important are emotions to you (for an E4, they are everything)? These questions may help to confirm/eliminate this possibility for you.

As for the suicide attempts, those are a sign of serious depression, and not a reflection of Enneagram type. I don't like the idea of using mental or physical health issues as a means of typing someone, as you yourself are aware of how disabilities of all kinds can skew this process.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
These are really good questions, and some that I was hoping someone would ask me eventually. Kudos!

@Jawz
As for the "keeping busy" part, do you feel that this strategy is, in part, to maintain an image (that's the impression I got, but I don't want to just assume)?
That's very close to it actually. Being busy and pursuing hobbies and interests has always been inherent. As far as I can remember, I was always always a busy little kid --- busy with school projects, extra cirricular activities, making/cementing relationships, playing best friend --- but there came a point [around 14] when I realized that my life is supposed to mean something bigger than what it was turning into. I had a huge view of myself of making big things happen ... being special ... and I set about becoming special. I became everybody's best friend. I became my mother's favourite son. I tried to become my siblings' best brother [but they never really accepted me the way I wanted them to] --- so at around that time, I started consciously over-looking everything else. I became everything - and in the end, today I realize that in doing so I really am everything, but nothing at the same time. So in other words --- yes -- it was a conscious desire to become something that would get me the most success in everything I did. Not just by becoming be absolute best, but finding ways to be perceived in that light.

Example: I went to the #1 Business School not because I wanted to, but because in doing so I would be perceived as the best and my parents would be proud of me. I just didn't fail at it. And that's been the most common theme. I'm just so good at what I do, it seems like that that is what I want to do to everyone else, so they can never quite understand why I'm unhappy inside while doing it. This was exactly how my marriage turned out. It was one of the biggest shocks to everyone in the world when we divorced because on the surface it was the epitome of a perfect marriage.

Have you ever felt different from others?
Yeah .. the difference became extremely obvious around the time I turned 13. I realized that I was feeling things much more strongly than other kids - especially when my pet parrot died and I was ridiculed in public for crying about it. I remember being traumatized by that experience and isolated myself from people for years because of that humiliation. From that time onwards, I became an extremely stoic child and trained myself to control every bit of emotion I felt and wrapped myself in a very protective bubble. I am unique by virtue of being different.

Also, I grew up as an ethnic minority during my teen years. I was horribly ridiculed for my accent, my clothes, the way I walked in my high school. There was a kid in particular who thought he could get under my skin - but I gave the impression that I didn't care. Again --- I had a very "I hate my feelings, but I have to accept that I have them" relationship with my emotions. They never really hindered me to the point of complete incapacity as they have now and I still managed to do the best I could to make my place in the world.

I moved back to Pakistan in 2002 - but by that time, I was a true Canadian/Pakistani hybrid --- which really set me apart. I went through a lot of "Third Culture Kid" problems [you can read up on that if you like]. Long story short ---- I literally became unique to the point where my own boss mocked me with this picture one day [and I felt extremely humiliated when he did]:



This is after the fact that I had proven myself the best member of his team - as acknowledged by his boss. I tried not to believe that it was jealousy at that point, but other people told me that he was jealous of my success and felt threatened by me.

Have you ever had a strong desire to be an individual?
I already am extremely individualistic, unique and separate. I never bothered with trying to be unique - because I was always unique - and knew just how to express myself in a way that I stood out - but not so much like a sore thumb. I go against the grain almost inherently. I am calculated in my rebellions --- E.G. If someone says "I don't like it when you wear black!" --- I'd make sure that I wear nothing by black in front of them kind of rebellious. But never to the point of breaking specific rules and over-looking principles.

How important are emotions to you (for an E4, they are everything)?
I have a very love hate relationship with my own emotions. I explore my feelings in-depth --- but I need to give myself breaks in order to do so. Meaning that when I'm busy and required to do something, I will always over-look my personal feelings and just get it done ... but the nagging strain of having done so is like a stain on my brain and with each new act where I over-look my personal feelings, the stain becomes bigger ---- till I literally crash and say "What the fuck was I doing with my life???" I explore my feelings through my music --- it defines everything about me. It was what helped me survive my near suicidal state all my life. I would play .. and it would comfort me .. I would give my compositions titles like "Bleeding inside", "Tough", "The Innocence Anthem", "Dehumanization", "Losing Control" etc .. which were a direct reflection of my moods and feelings.

But .. usually soon as I was done composing, I would start feeling better and carry on :)

Great questions. Thanks :)
 
@Jawz

Looking over your last reply, I can see how 3 would still fit you well. But I think 4 is a possibility as well. To me, I think it's one of those two (Type 3 or Type 4). If it's 3, I can't figure out your wing. If it's 4, I believe your wing is 3 rather than 5, as your desire for creativity, it seems, is in part, to impress others.

I would say that if one trying to decide between these two types, the question would be, which do you look to more to find security? Achievement, or uniqueness?

PS: Your boss was a real....(fill in the blank as you wish)... for that humiliating gesture. That picture and its accompanying statement are the creation of an ignorant mind.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
I would say that if one trying to decide between these two types, the question would be, which do you look to more to find security? Achievement, or uniqueness?
I think that you're really getting at the core of some of my most well guarded barriers with your questions --- under normal circumstances, I probably would have felt almost a feeling of violation when asked what seem to be relatively simple questions for others.

Security was never a concern for me [period] because I always had it. I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth [my father had hit the peak of his career by the time I entered teenage]. One thing is for certain that I have little regard for my own security, but much more for the security of my parents. Paying them back for all that they have given me is another extremely common theme --- but at the same time, it's also always been reluctantly so on my part. I always made choices based on the following factor: "How is it beneficial for my parents/SO? How is it beneficial for me?" The latter was low on the priority list, the former always #1. In actuality, I perceived myself as a security provider rather than recipient mainly because it was already in place.

I think achievement and excellence was mostly drummed into me by my parents, whereas I was also satisfied in setting achievable goals for myself ... at times consciously telling my parents "Oh ... I really suck at this." and then planning to surprise them with great results for that extra praise / value.

I found myself to be a straggler in my own life. Between age 16-22, I felt like a piece of luggage --- unimportant and insignificant in terms of the structure of my family's life ------- but I found that I had the natural ability to be my parents' moral support and so I used that to the maximum. I made my parents reliant on me for their emotional needs, something that has rewarded me to this day --- but again, it was all reluctant. Everything I've done in life has a sense of reluctance behind it.

When it came to my fiance ---- my goal was to not let it fail under any circumstances --- and here again, my parents were the priority. It so turned out that my fiance was my mother's choice, and her father was my father's best friend and so I decided to stick it out through all the personal abuse in order to ensure that in my failing, they didn't fail as well. So, I consumed all the hurt and abuse unto myself never once complaining to my parents about what I was enduring till the last day.

Same with my accident. I got into the accident because my father couldn't afford a car. I deferred to them for my rehabilitation. The more I think about it, the more I realize that everything I ever did in my life was to please my parents, hoping to pay them back and hoping to earn their love ---- but I managed to cement my own individuality through retreating for long periods .. withdrawing into my comforts, hobbies. I was 2-faced for them. Eternally happy outside, sad inside. Still am actually. But I'm getting better.

So, in the end, everything has revolved around my parents and still does --- but I never let them take the decisions for me. The thing is, every time I was faced with a choice, I would initially listen to them --- but then start feeling fractured and put my foot on the ground and scream out that "No, I want to do what I want to do .. stop pushing me." I did what I wanted to do, but I made sure it was something that would make my parents / wife happy as well and not just me, or them. In the end however, in doing so, I made a series of bad choices where even though I was able to fake happiness [and really believe it for a while], I was eternally unhappy.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
@LittleB81 ---- Is it just me, or are my answers beginning to sound very super-egoish --- almost 1-ish.
@Wake --- please give me your feedback based on my last post. Not that I'm questioning my type at this point, but I would like to know your take on Parental Orientation of 1's .. are 1's so likely to live by their parent's expectations or not. I have to admit that I haven't yet seriously considered 1 fix for myself.
 
@LittleB81 ---- Is it just me, or are my answers beginning to sound very super-egoish --- almost 1-ish.
@Wake --- please give me your feedback based on my last post. Not that I'm questioning my type at this point, but I would like to know your take on Parental Orientation of 1's .. are 1's so likely to live by their parent's expectations or not. I have to admit that I haven't yet seriously considered 1 fix for myself.
Not sure about 1-ish, but 2-ish, yes. It sounds like you really want to help your parents. It sounds like there is a pervasive theme of indebtedness in your last post. Is there anyone else in your life that you've wanted to help? Have you felt compelled to assist others? I am not good at typing 2s, but being unhappy after attending to others' needs is something that a 2 might struggle with, certainly.

ETA: It also sounds like you are very loyal to loved ones. Core 6 may still be a possibility as well. 6s need support and guidance, and the basic fear of a 6 is to lose that support and guidance. They view the world as a dangerous, unsafe place.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Not sure about 1-ish, but 2-ish, yes. It sounds like you really want to help your parents. It sounds like there is a pervasive theme of indebtedness in your last post. Is there anyone else in your life that you've wanted to help? Have you felt compelled to assist others? I am not good at typing 2s, but being unhappy after attending to others' needs is something that a 2 might struggle with, certainly.
I just read the parental orientation of 1's, and nope. I couldn't relate. The thing is that the obligation has almost always felt forced. My mother raised me with promises like "Don't ever leave me." --- "If you ever leave me, I won't have anyone else left in the world." At one point I internalized it as an obligation and built my life around it ---- but it was almost strained. At times it even felt like emotional manipulation, but she seemed like she was alone in the world [she and my dad didn't have the best relationship nor did she have a good one with her own siblings] so I stuck it out with her. However, the motivations are as follows:

1. Obligation to myself and to my mom - which meant that when faced with choices like "Psychology at out of town university vs Sociology at university in town", I decided to pick Sociology while staying with my mom. Same with my MBA university. I had the choice to return to Canada and do my Master's in Sociology or stay in Pakistan and do my MBA .. I picked the latter because a) It was the best university, b) It gave me a chance to fulfil my obligation to my mom, c) Allowed me to court my fiance. It's always been a couple of selfish motives but one selfless motive thrown in ... all centred around fulfilling mine and her expectations.
 
@Jawz

I've been doing some thinking, and from what I can see, there are 4 possibilities that seem to make the most sense with what you have written here: Types 2, 3, 4, and 6. The others I can't see as your core type, but you can always correct me if I'm wrong. Are there any E-types you have already eliminated for yourself? That can be a good start- eliminating the ones that make no sense for you.
 
@LittleB81 I don't really see a 2 core in him, but probably a fix/wing. He wants to please his parents, but if I understand correctly it's more that he wants to repay them for what they've done for him, he's not doing it to earn their love, nor does he ask for anything back. If I understand 2s correctly, those would be pretty common themes in his actions/motivations.

I think @Jawz's core is either 3 or 4, either 4w3 2w3 6w? or 3w2 4w3 6w?. I can't really make a conclusion though, because your obligation to his parents don't really speak to a need for achievement or for uniqueness. Maybe a little towards security/want from/for uniqueness because you felt that your obligation to your mom was forced. What made you feel it was forced? Was it because you had your own goals to pursue, or because you couldn't develop yourself in a unique way because you had to fulfill your debt to your parents?

Not sure about the 6 core, but definitely a fix.
 
Wake --- please give me your feedback based on my last post. Not that I'm questioning my type at this point, but I would like to know your take on Parental Orientation of 1's .. are 1's so likely to live by their parent's expectations or not. I have to admit that I haven't yet seriously considered 1 fix for myself.
This matter is sketchy with 1s. Many speak of becoming a young adult and taking on too much responsibility early in their life. I think this is supposed to make them emphasize responsibility and continue to hold themselves to a higher standard, looking down at others who don't.

Personally, I was raised Catholic by my parents, seen people who were mostly CP6s being immoral, creating a sense of individualism through ideology and idealism, throwing out Christianity against my parents will because I didn't care what others thought, and replaced them with my own beliefs of moral and immoral and thinking for myself outside of that regarding issues and application to current society. Strong sense of individualism, my own belief in how I should fit into the world, objectivity and detachment to try to understand how things should be to work best. Parents are divorced and my separation from Christianity was a symbol of me going my own way.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
@Jawz

I've been doing some thinking, and from what I can see, there are 4 possibilities that seem to make the most sense with what you have written here: Types 2, 3, 4, and 6. The others I can't see as your core type, but you can always correct me if I'm wrong. Are there any E-types you have already eliminated for yourself? That can be a good start- eliminating the ones that make no sense for you.
Well, considering that when I've been at my "best" [which has been in very short durations due to life circumstances], I've always felt like the world is my playground and I can mould it to my will is something that speaks volumes to me about my faith in my own abilities. When I'm "on", I can reach the top very quickly, very efficiently --- even without having to break any rules, or taking any short-cuts. I am methodical, driven, ambitious ---- but humble at the same time.

My humility comes from my 361 dad. And also my mom's teachings. I'm pretty sure if I was born to different parents, I would've turned out differently. The reason why I didn't break any rules was because breaking rules would've disappointed my parents. My brother was the sort to break rules and disregard them completely for his personal gain. It took a huge crash for him [a hole he dug for himself where he attempted suicide to escape the consequences] to make him appreciate rules. The reason why I did so was because my brother didn't. It was another way I competed with him. Slowly, the rules became a part of my life --- but the fact is that my rules are as flexible as I am. I can bend them to serve my needs and the needs of my immediates.

Anyways ... the types I've eliminated are Type 1, 5, 7 and 8. Which leaves 2, 3, 4, 6 and 9. Given how closely others and I see type 2, 4 and 3 is a crude implication that perhaps 3 is the core because of 2 and 4 being its adjacent. If I could relate strongly to 1 [the only thing I don't relate to at all is perfection --- I'm not a perfectionist in anything except when it's required to achieve success in something I'm striving for -- and even then, I would prefer to take short-cuts if they presented themselves], then perhaps that would've suggested 1w2 and 1w9 --- I believe it's also one of my masks that I put on. The idealism isn't inherent, the giving isn't inherent [nor is it a need] --- both of them are flexible goals for myself where I see that indulging in such would endear me, or make me become a better person overall.

Yes, when it comes to the poor and needy, I am beyond charitable and selflessly so.

Lastly, I recently came across these variant stackings of the 3 which resonate extremely deeply with me.

I relate to both so/sx and sx/sp heavily ... but I am really deviating towards the sx/sp at this point based on this one description.

Social/Sexual

This stacking will cause most of the social variant issues described for the social/self-pres to manifest. The primary differences will be in the arena of interpersonal relationships. Because this is still a social subtype, this Three will strive for the accumulation of wealth in cultures where there is social validation for wealth. The motivation for attainment of material wealth will be derived less out of need for stability and more purely from the desire for social admiration. As with all self-preservation last types, this Three will find it difficult to expend sufficient energy in practical matters, except where there is social pressure to do so. Therefore, just as with the social/self-pres Three; this Three will have an desirable home; but most likely it will fall into disarray when visitors are not expected. With the social/self-pres stacking, there is more internal motivation (stemming from the self- preservation instinct in the secondary position) to maintain order and stability for themselves. With this soc/sexual subtype the motivation to keep up appearances is more purely external.


This type can still be materially successful, but they will not be as directly focused on this goal as the social/self-pres Three. There will be many occasions where the lure of enjoyment (even excess) will take precedence over the need to stay on the "straight and narrow." Focus on interpersonal relationships, as well as longing for intensity of experience is far more pronounced in this type of Three than in the social/self-pres. Having the social instinct backed by the sexual instinct creates the most playful energy combination, making this Three seem somewhat like a Seven. While social validation is still the primary focus, sexual validation as well as intimacy are also sought, and it is more likely for this subtype to choose “impractically” in the area of relationships (though they may keep their more “socially unacceptable” friends hidden from public scrutiny.)


When these Threes are healthy, their interpersonal skills become a useful tool for grounding themselves and for finding what they really want from life and for finding who they really are. They learn to maintain a more consistent identity, bringing all of who they really are to the forefront, which means recognizing the real self first.
Sexual/Self-pres

This subtype can appear almost Four-like. They can be dramatic and appear introspective, especially with the Four wing. There is an on and off quality to these Threes. They can be very emotional and then become very business like. It’s not uncommon to find this subtype in the arts, especially as actors, singers or performers. The outward sexual energy coupled with the secondary self-pres energy can cause these Threes to focus on projecting an image of themselves to the world. They will seek validation in the area of their persona. This type especially wrestles with the authenticity of the persona/image they create. On the one hand, the image protects the real self, but at the same time they hate the image they project. This subtype is likely to be in a constant state of flux when it comes to the image they project and for this reason, they run the risk of burn-out and disillusionment. They are more prone to depression than the other subtypes.


When healthier, these Threes begin to trust their intimate relationships, and begin to disentangle the real self from the flux of partial identities they create. They learn that being vulnerable is necessary if they are to get what they really want, which is to reveal the real self and trust that they are lovable even with their flaws.
I really think that I idealize so/sx ... however, I am strongly beginning to believe that I am sx/sp afterall. I can't figure it out. I think I like to see myself as so/sx --- whereas I really am sx/sp .... This particular description is also a revelation into why I was relating so heavily to 4 at one point.

Guys .. keep in mind that if indeed I am a 369 --- this means that I am very likely to see a lot more in myself. What I'm trying to really get at is the very core.
 
Lastly, I recently came across these variant stackings of the 3 which resonate extremely deeply with me.

I relate to both so/sx and sx/sp heavily ... but I am really deviating towards the sx/sp at this point based on this one description.
I listened to a workshop Naranjo did during which he said that if you think you relate to all 3 variant descriptions of an Etype, then you are most likely not that type. He said that you should relate a lot to one, somewhat to another, and not at all to one, since you have 2 dominant and one very underdeveloped one.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I listened to a workshop Naranjo did during which he said that if you think you relate to all 3 variant descriptions of an Etype, then you are most likely not that type. He said that you should relate a lot to one, somewhat to another, and not at all to one, since you have 2 dominant and one very underdeveloped one.
I haven't read the variant stacking literature in-depth yet. However, what you're saying is true from the stand-point of relation in isolation, but not relation to stackings. What are Naranjo's views on stacking?
 
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top