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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello guys!

The title says almost everything, but I'll detail it later on the text. The 2 following paragraphs says how I got these idea(it is important to the understanding of my hypothesis):

Since I knew MBTI/cognitive functions I became extremely interested in the intuition preference (and, consequently, in the Ni and Ne). Well, this is not the way I was supposed to start this paragraph (I am a strong intuitive, then say to me if you got lost). Ok, seriously now: I've gathered a lot of information about mbti (but I still find myself a beginner) and during a conversation with a friend of mine (who have been tested as intuitive (ENFJ) by the MENTI model - 16personalities site) she asked me the way I study (my grades are excellent) and she told me she studied (for exact sciences, which subjects we would have a test in some minutes) like this: the READ the examples of the book and studied one example of each exercise type (math and physics, principally) so she could remember the idea of the resolution of any type of question.
Some context for you: we are both in high school and we live in Brazil (we must study all subjects to perform a test at the end of high school (similar to the SAT). Our math is not superficial as US math in high school: we study algebra until complex numbers, integral calculus, etc.). When she told me the way she studied it sparkled in my mind: it seems the test was wrong, you are a sensor (she displays SJ temperament - I thought it was related to her religion). At this moment I was tempted to make the generalization that it is possible to determinate weather you are a sensor or intuitive by the way you study math.

As I may be wrong (as I said earlier, I'm still a beginner in personality stuff) I decided to ask you the question:
Is it possible to determinate S x N by the way you study math and your approach to math questions? Another thing I forgot to say in the last paragraph: she memorizes formulas with no difficult -- I can't remember most of them, I need to demonstrate them).

If I remember anything more I'll write it here, and I'm sore for the probably ugly English mistakes I've made.)
 

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Interesting idea. It would be interesting if people from many types said how they study math (or, study in general). I know that I'm a strong intuitive, and something I found interesting in school was that I would grasp the concepts really well, but still get the wrong answers a lot of the time because I wasn't very careful -- I was bad at the practical implication. Mostly I liked formulas and examples, and that's what I studied, but I got really confused when people started adding numbers)))
 

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Interesting question! I was good at algebra and equations (problems to solve), but loathed Maths as a subject in school (xSTJ teachers, geometry, measuring, finance = boring). (That said, Alex Bellos's books on maths are fascinating; if only maths had been taught like that, rather than rote learning.) Wrote this in 10th grade (15 y.o.) - English writing piece: why you like maths.

 

As much as some people may argue that 'Twas mathematics that made men subtle, they are wrong. In fact, 'twas mathematics that made men stark raving bloody loony mad.

In the first place, maths is irrelevant - one needs only the mathematics studied in Year 7, and one can survive, unless one has the mental perversion of wishing to study math. One needs no imagination to study math - only the sheer drabness of mind that enables one to take a formula and stick to it through the rest of one's life; regardless of whether it serves any useful purpose, it is still a piece of logic to hang onto to keep the tidy, bureaucratic mind from exploding in a world where nothing is certain. One has merely to mutter, "Why (don't we forget all this rubbish?) multiplied by the neo-Cubist root of Marxism* over the abecedarian prototypical intercourse of the Agamemnonic hypochondria, plus the leviathan mesomorphic antidote proves that Hitler was a fink", and the petty bureaucrat, the cut-and-dry mind without imagination, is cured.

*: Probably "We have nothing to lose but our kittens". (Die Proletarier haben nichts in ihr zu verlieren als ihre Ketten.)

In the second place, mathematics tells us that there is only one possible answer to any question. BALDERDASH! History and English both tell us that there are a thousand sides to any argument, depending on your upbringing and mental attributes. ... There are millions of shades of any colour - and even a coin has thousands of sides.

In short, then, mathematics is the last refuge of those unburdened with intelligence or imagination, and is completely irrelevant to life - because one cannot apply a formula to life. It consists merely of pure jargon - pointless. Mathematics is, in the old feminist joke, as useful as a bicycle is to a fish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the coments. I'm thinking about creating a poll about this, any suggestions?
The conscious functions of the ENFJ are Fe-Ni-Se-Ti, what function would be responsible for formula memorization?
In addition, I forgot to say in the first post: this ENFJ friend has an amazing memory (something I would have on my dreams) for everything, I mean, she can study 40 pages in 3 hours and remember every tiny detail, is this normal for ENFJ? (She can remember details both in short term and long term)
 

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Well if it helps with your theory, my approach to maths was to just jump at it scatter effect and hopefully tie the right answer in at the end and not miss anything.

But while I try quite hard to improve my basic maths skills, (and when I say basic I mean BAAAAASSSSIIIC), it's something I struggle with. I did try to study it though, but any attempt was met with failure as all information slipped from my mind like mental sand. I could never quite get the methods used by my old teacher in secondary school.

I started with rote memorisation of various formula's but that didn't work, then I tried doing mental maths which was a bit better but not much use. So then I tried visualising a fictional situation in which to use the maths.....that didn't work either. I think the issue was I am just not interested in it and I wanted to be.

I didn't pursue a higher education, (primarily due to lack of ability and intelligence but also because of financial sparsity), so I don't know how I would have fared with higher mathematics.
 

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I also think sensors learn with examples and need to see tasks in a very concrete way. They are also more interested in the application. Theories without any application seem useless to them. They also learn the details first and then make the big picture out of it I think.

Sensing (S) versus Intuition (N)

Some of us choose to rely on our five senses. Some prefer taking in information through our "sixth" sense. Sensing people are detail oriented, want facts, and trust them. Joe Friday from the TV show Dragnet epitomizes the extreme sensing detective. All he ever wanted was "just the facts".
Intuitive people seek out patterns and relationships among the facts they have gathered. They trust hunches and their intuition and look for the "big picture." The quintessential intuitive was Albert Einstein whose fanciful thought experiments revolutionized the 20th century. He could see patterns where others saw randomness or chaos.

[...]


Teaching Sensing Students

Sensing students prefer organized, linear, and structured lectures. We recommend three methods for organizing a lecture: (1) the what must be known organizing strategy, (2) the application-theory
-application organizing strategy and (3) the advance organizer.

[...]


The discovery method, or the why method, will appeal to intuitive students and will teach sensing students how to uncover general principles. In using this method, sensing and intuitive students should be combined in learning groups. The intuitive student can help the sensing student to discover the theory; the sensing student can help identify and marshal the facts of the exercise.
Intuitive students must have the big picture, or an integrating framework, to understand a subject. The big picture shows how the subject matter is interrelated. Intuitive students can develop reasonably correct concept maps or compare and contrast tables. Fortunately, sensing students can be taught to do the same.

[...]
source: Student Learning and the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator
I found that document very interesting :)

Sorry that's offtopic but just from the way your writing, you really strike me as an Ne user. Did you look into being an xNTP yet?^^
interlacing of sentences, jumping from one idea to the next and later back

examples:
Well, this is not the way I was supposed to start this paragraph (I am a strong intuitive, then say to me if you got lost). Ok, seriously now:
As I may be wrong (as I said earlier, I'm still a beginner in personality stuff)
all this: "I could be wrong", or you're giving more content to explain everything, you add more details, It could be like this.... or like that...

I see xNTJs more like: coming to the point very quickly, write clear what they want, not so much speculation, not adding so many details ("useless information?), not so much jumping but structure in their text, more confident in their opinion, so I think you're leaving much room for specultion here (you open up the discussion, what could be possible?), Ni is more like "seeking closure" it's the opposite.
Well I myself am an INTP, so I would like to add: I could be wrong and this was just speculation but I often write very similar and other Ne users as well. :p
 

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Well, studying has never played an important role in my life. Aside from trying memorizing text word by word minutes before the lesson, I've never really studied before. I just kind of understood things as they were presented to me, and I remembered them without even trying to. Of course, this doesn't work with anything, but I've managed to maintain an above-average performance throughout the years with borderline zero effort. Because of this, I'm basically lost when it comes to actually trying to study, which is a great disadvantage. However, I remember that trying to understand a rule or principle through examples has been probably the most useful and easiest method of studying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Thanks guys! @Draki:
I have an extremely high preference for intuition, so this is the reason I think I jump from one idea to another. I'm not a native speaker (actually, a have never been to a country that has English as official language), this should be another reason.
Yes, initially I thought of myself being an INTP, however:
1- I display the "J"(paranoid) behavior: I can't get comfortable before making a decision, like in which school and what degree I want pursue (in my country there's no undergrad and grad - when we finish high school we must choose: medicine; law; engineering; history; biochemistry…);
2- I don't have the memory you (INTP) have;
3- I forgot what I would write here, if/when I remember I'll edit;
4- I'm an irrational type;
5- In real life I'm "more sure" (probably because I know that the people who I'm talking with don't know/know little about the subject of the conversation). On personalitycafe there are people who know a lot more than me -- I have never read Jung/Keirsey.
6- I recognize myself accumulation knowledge from various fields and making connections between then to present a solution for a problem (one sentence, one question, sparkle my mind, which has the oxygen and the fuel)
 

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I don't know if you can type people by this or not, but it's an interesting idea anyways. All I have to offer is my own experience with math. I'm an INFP so - Fi Ne mainly - and I've never been that good at math (I second guess myself a Lot and redo things over and over and yeah... half the time I come up with a different answer every time, lol). Anyways, I finally started doing well in math during highschool Algebra with a teacher who would work things out with us in class step by step so I could do them with her - but also at the same time I learned to 'switch off my brain and do math in zombie-mode - just follow the directions'. My natural inclination all along was to keep asking Why. WHY do we do this with the numbers?! Why do they give you this result? I wanted the theory, I didn't want to memorize. I wanted to UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS heheh.... which they really don't give you that much of in elementary-highschool. I loved word problems (which everyone else complained about) because I felt it helped me understand what was going on by giving it a useful context. I would often draw diagrams and sketches of the situation to wrap my mind around it and come up with an answer through my own reasoning which was often very long and belabored and wrong, but I just couldn't bring myself to simply plug things into a formula that had been given to me (I usually couldn't remember the stuff I was supposed to memorize anyways), I needed to sort it out and make it make sense in my own brain rather than going through the motions. But as I said, when I stopped engaging math and just went through the motions my grades improved greatly - but I wouldn't say I actually learned much or gained a real understanding, and I've forgotten almost all of it because... yeah it never got properly internalized into my mental system.
 

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my comments in red:
Thanks guys! @Draki:
I have an extremely high preference for intuition, so this is the reason I think I jump from one idea to another. The question is what kind of intuition: Ne versus Ni. Ne jumps a lot around indeed. I'm not a native speaker (actually, a have never been to a country that has English as official language), this should be another reason.
Okay I can see that, I have the same problem with English. Nevertheless if you write a text and start with:
Well, this is not the way I was supposed to start this paragraph (I am a strong intuitive, then say to me if you got lost)
, that's not a language problem. It's the way you structure your text which strikes me as Ne. All the information you collect and try to sort somehow. Ne has kind of a rambling character which can be annoying for INTJs.
Yes, initially I thought of myself being an INTP, however:
1- I display the "J"(paranoid) behavior: I can't get comfortable before making a decision, like in which school and what degree I want pursue (in my country there's no undergrad and grad - when we finish high school we must choose: medicine; law; engineering; history; biochemistry…); right, this time is quite stressful when you have to decide, especially if you don't feel ready for it but have to choose. More important here is how you feel after you've made the decision. Do you feel relieved or do you start to doubt if it was the right choice after some time?
2- I don't have the memory you (INTP) have; everyone has the same memory. If you don't identify too much with Si that's normal, usually that's the last function which developes more in your 20's. Also you see a lot of Si-dominants complaining that Si is not only about memory. It's difficult to grasp what it really is (at least for me, I don't notice it too much and I'm 23).
3- I forgot what I would write here, if/when I remember I'll edit;
4- I'm an irrational type; You didn't say why, but if you're sure (Leading perceiving function) I could see you as an ENTP. If you say now you're clearly an introvert: ENTPs are the most introverted extraverts. They often mistype as INTx because of that.
5- In real life I'm "more sure" (probably because I know that the people who I'm talking with don't know/know little about the subject of the conversation). On personalitycafe there are people who know a lot more than me -- I have never read Jung/Keirsey. I'm sure when I'm talking about a subject I know well although I shy away from conflict. And ENTPs are confident anyway. They also have good use of Te by the way (if you learn about socionics ILE). However I always tend to say that you cannot be 100% sure. And that things could be different because nobody knows everything. There is always this on the one hand... on the other hand... going on in me. I also didn't read Keirsey/Jung yet, but I nevertheless know what we teach us here in forums and on websites^^ I agree that there could be flaws in it. In the end no personality theory like MBTI / socionics / enneagram had been scientificly proven.
Well, I actually didn't want to discuss your type in lengths here^^ You also know yourself much better, don't feel pushed into a type you're not. I just wanted to let you know that you remind me of xNTPs in this post. :)
So go on with the actual topic, it's interesting ^^
 

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yay for my first double post ever :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I didn't felt pushed for discussing my type (I really like discussing it). I love when people say something that disagree then I can exercise my brain:wink:

Back to the topic(starting the theory):
*OBS: please, if you don't display your type under your nickname say it on the post.
1- Intuitives can manage formulas and examples, but they prefer knowing why the math works the way i works(not saying that they get to understand, but they look for it)
a) it doesn't fit with the ENFJ -- any suggestion? My hypothesis: she has Ti inferior so she is neglecting it's usage by not wanting to know why and being ok with the superficiality of formula memorization and entering "zombie mode".
 

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Okay, here's how I study math (I'm an ENTP I believe, but some seem to think I'm anywhere from INTP to ENTJ when they type me, so, whatever):

Hmm, this is tough, and also fairly complex. The first thing that I do when approaching a math class is figure out how the instructor lectures. Does he/she give examples? How many? How many topics does s/he cover? I do this subconsciously, without trying.

After figuring out the structure of the class I dive in... by not taking notes. I watch very, very carefully as to how the instructor does the problem on the first go without writing anything down. I then use the next example problem to practice. I take notes on the basic workings behind the problems rather than on the problems themselves, and I put effort into trying to understand those workings.

I pay little attention to what the instructor actually says, and I teach myself whatever I may have missed out on via the textbook, etc. The further I get into calculus-esque work, the easier it gets to use my method of study.

I didn't actually devise this, it seems to just be how I work. If I try to actually sit down and study, I never can. Five minutes and I'm off, talking to some random person about pygmy elephants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
[OFFTOPIC]

Darki, interesting… I have some questions and answers:
1- I feel relieved after making the decision;
2- I love debate (I think I already have answered this in the previous post, but I'll put everything into one);
a) I run from debates with people that will not change their viewpoints, Fe dom/aux, strong sensors, extraverted types that will no let me pause to think;
3- I'm almost sure I'm introverted. However, I would appreciate the definition formal/deep definition of extraversion (should we create a new threat?)
4- being irrational: taking information without passing it in the filter of logic?
a)Exemple: considering MBTI as true (I mean, not a pseudoscience) when had contact with it. (Still trust it)

*sparkle: the ExFJ friend I mentioned in the #1 post is an anomaly(for extraverted people): hates parties; told me people think she is serious before knowing her (she is not). I got to know her too fast, once I didn't knew she existed and then she "opened up" her crazy side; she doesn't have lots of friends.
a) is she really extraverted? (My intuition say me that yes)
 
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