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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So, I'm writing about the ISFJ I have written a couple of threads about already.

I gave her the gift that y'all said was a good idea, and she acted very pleased to receive it. I was told later by the English teacher (50 year old lady on our team) that ISFJ came running to her stating that she "didn't know what to think of it" and that she knew I liked her (which I NEVER explicitly stated).

Anyways. I was moved down a grade level, so ISFJ and I no longer work together. She starts seeing her "best friend" who is moving back northeast after the school year.

She will not be working in the school next year. Her and all her best friends (3 of them, including 2 roommates) are leaving because they don't like the "direction the school is taking."

LONG story short, ISFJ doesn't even look at me, sometimes flat out ignores me, will see me and walk away, just acts disgusted at me.

I am pretty fed up by this. I go and talk to English teacher (who I think is an ENFJ), and she basically tells me, "forget her, you're better than her."

It's not even romantic anymore. It's a matter of respect. We were SO SO SO SO SO SO SO tight in the beginning of the year, and now it seems as if I've offended her.

At the end of the day, I was about to leave, and saw our dean of students (ESTJ, another motherly type, another 50 year old woman). The other dean was telling her where they were getting drinks, she said she'd be there, then told me, "I ain't going there. They know I don't drink with co-workers. Sometimes, people say things they don't mean to say or do things they don't mean to do, and it can ruin everything. I don't want a part of it."

I told her I learned this the hard way. I explained the story of the night where ISFJ and I got drinks w/ other staff, and she INSISTED that she knew something was up between ISFJ and I, that we were SO tight (I would, apparently, light up when she entered a room, and she would, apparently, never stop talking about me). She kind of told me she was happier that I was staying than she was, that she saw more promise in me. She advised me, "if it's REALLY bothering you, I'd have a conversation with her about it. Ask her why you aren't cool anymore."

I sent a text. I told her how the vibe I got was that we weren't tight at all anymore, and if I did something or said something to her, I'd like to know what it was. I also told her that she could take the weekend b/c I know her family is in town.

Again, this isn't even romantic anymore. She's dating ANOTHER guy I think (albeit casually), but at this point, it's more about respect and self-improvement.If she chooses NOT to respond, I'm just going to take that as a sign of disrespect and she'll be out of my life pronto.

My justification is that I really have nothing to lose.

ISFJs, thoughts?

If she brings up me LIKING her, I'm going to tell her that it's irrelevant whether I like her or not UNLESS she likes me and wants me to ask her out. I've been EXTREMELY respectful and professional otherwise towards her, so who cares if I like her or not?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Move on.

This girl has been ambiguous and wishy-washy toward you from the start. Let her go, and take an interest in someone else.
Yeah, at this point it's just disrespect. I'm not offended, I'm not even hurt, just incredibly disappointed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No response.

Lots of older people I talk to says it sounds like she's REALLY into me (and I hear a lot of ISFJs go into avoid-mode when they REALLY like someone).

But if she can't grow some female cojones and come talk to me to tell me what's up, then she and I are done as friends, I guess.
 
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You are analyzing this too much. Sack up and pack up. :D
 

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No response.

Lots of older people I talk to says it sounds like she's REALLY into me (and I hear a lot of ISFJs go into avoid-mode when they REALLY like someone).

But if she can't grow some female cojones and come talk to me to tell me what's up, then she and I are done as friends, I guess.
She's with someone. I don't mean "with" someone.

From what I remember, you mentioned that the guy was closer with her during her previous relationship than even you would allow a guy to get to a woman you're dating. Doesn't that suggest something? I think it's rather telling that she doesn't know how to be alone. There's always some guy enticing her away from her current partner. I don't think that's healthy, personally. I've no idea what's going through her mind, I've no idea why she's with who she is with and not with you.

All I can say is that without a person telling me exactly what it is that they like about me, telling me exactly what it is that sets me apart from most other girls, or most other possible partners, and why that appeals to the person, I don't pay attention to that person as a potential partner unless I think the world of 'em. I don't build trust unless there's no risk of sour or bad feelings, and you've put yourself in a very tricky position as the available, waiting, other guy. For her to date you means to not date who she is with, and that's messy. It's a risk. She has her own personal moral hurdles and reasons and justifications for what she's doing.

She sounds to be easily justifying that you're not being anywhere near each other in work circumstances means she can put distance between herself and you more easily. You not showing indications nor telling her that you're going to miss her allows her to keep this up. She can just convince herself it's better /easier this way. After all, emphasizing yet again, she's with someone else. If she's reasonably content, happy, satisfied with her current relationship then she has no compelling reason to make any sudden moves or take risks or make changes. She hasn't had a moment of ...how do I explain this? A moment of clarity compelling her to approach you and be blatantly honest with you.

Immature ISFJ tend to do this, it's a form of avoiding conflict, a form of expectation on other people to prove that they understand how we're feeling. It's stupid. Honestly, it's the stupidest thing ever, but I've done it several times in my youth. "If this person really gets me, if they know me, they will understand, and they will prove that they do." I then met a person who did in fact understand me and reflected that back to me and I suddenly felt figuratively naked. No one before had dared to emotionally approach me like that and size me up, and do it in such a way that it didn't feel threatening. It just felt that someone really cared enough to encourage me to be open. I mean, I was going to be "read" anyway, so I may as well just directly say what I was thinking and feeling and not be afraid of the consequences.

So, good luck with that, and I mean good luck with getting through to an immature ISFJ. I don't think she's been through enough experiences to be able to overcome those hurdles without someone meeting her halfway, and that person doing so entirely without fear. Meaning, you can't even be afraid of what she might say or do to potentially scare you away or hurt you. It means abandoning every emotion except for love and care and respect for her, and love and care and respect for yourself.
 
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No response.

Lots of older people I talk to says it sounds like she's REALLY into me (and I hear a lot of ISFJs go into avoid-mode when they REALLY like someone).

But if she can't grow some female cojones and come talk to me to tell me what's up, then she and I are done as friends, I guess.
Who cares? It's just a girl. You'll meet many more in your life. You are going to ruin a friendship just because of your desire for a relationship.
 

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Keep in mind, of course, that you approaching her bluntly as a guy who wants to be with her romantically can be seen as disrespectful toward her current circumstances.

You say you get intuitive feelings about the way you've seen her be with who she's currently dating, but I must ask you, have you asked her what she feels for him? Have you asked her what it is about him that she's attracted to? Has she ever had those conversations with you where she discusses why it is that she's with him? I would hope that she'd at least have the cajones to be open with people about her reasons why and not feel it's something personal that she has no reason to feel comfortable openly talking about. She should be able to address that in the open. If she feels threatened by talking about it, if she says "That's private and I'd rather not discuss it." I'd be worried. It implies a protectiveness, or an insecurity about things. A person can justify to their self why they're not willing to talk about it, but honestly it rings alarm bells in my head.

People need to be able to talk about their feelings. A person needs to learn to not be afraid of all the implications. Spurious rationale isn't good. She needs to be entirely honest with herself, and if she's not talking with anyone -possibly, not even her current partner, or perhaps ONLY with her current partner- she lacks objectivity. She can't see from outside of her perspective and re-assess what she's doing, and why.

I wouldn't want to date a person who is stuck in that self-perpetuating mindset, personally.
 
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She's with someone. I don't mean "with" someone.

From what I remember, you mentioned that the guy was closer with her during her previous relationship than even you would allow a guy to get to a woman you're dating. Doesn't that suggest something? I think it's rather telling that she doesn't know how to be alone. There's always some guy enticing her away from her current partner. I don't think that's healthy, personally. I've no idea what's going through her mind, I've no idea why she's with who she is with and not with you.

All I can say is that without a person telling me exactly what it is that they like about me, telling me exactly what it is that sets me apart from most other girls, or most other possible partners, and why that appeals to the person, I don't pay attention to that person as a potential partner unless I think the world of 'em. I don't build trust unless there's no risk of sour or bad feelings, and you've put yourself in a very tricky position as the available, waiting, other guy. For her to date you means to not date who she is with, and that's messy. It's a risk. She has her own personal moral hurdles and reasons and justifications for what she's doing.

She sounds to be easily justifying that you're not being anywhere near each other in work circumstances means she can put distance between herself and you more easily. You not showing indications nor telling her that you're going to miss her allows her to keep this up. She can just convince herself it's better /easier this way. After all, emphasizing yet again, she's with someone else. If she's reasonably content, happy, satisfied with her current relationship then she has no compelling reason to make any sudden moves or take risks or make changes. She hasn't had a moment of ...how do I explain this? A moment of clarity compelling her to approach you and be blatantly honest with you.

Immature ISFJ tend to do this, it's a form of avoiding conflict, a form of expectation on other people to prove that they understand how we're feeling. It's stupid. Honestly, it's the stupidest thing ever, but I've done it several times in my youth. "If this person really gets me, if they know me, they will understand, and they will prove that they do." I then met a person who did in fact understand me and reflected that back to me and I suddenly felt figuratively naked. No one before had dared to emotionally approach me like that and size me up, and do it in such a way that it didn't feel threatening. It just felt that someone really cared enough to encourage me to be open. I mean, I was going to be "read" anyway, so I may as well just directly say what I was thinking and feeling and not be afraid of the consequences.

So, good luck with that, and I mean good luck with getting through to an immature ISFJ. I don't think she's been through enough experiences to be able to overcome those hurdles without someone meeting her halfway, and that person doing so entirely without fear. Meaning, you can't even be afraid of what she might say or do to potentially scare you away or hurt you. It means abandoning every emotion except for love and care and respect for her, and love and care and respect for yourself.
I came to the same conclusion. She actually seems like she isn't into the OP and feels guilty for it, because she's being all immature and with somebody else just for the sake of being with somebody (or he was that person). How hard OP would have to try is too much for how he feels about her I think.

Something that really popped out: "you're better than her". Pretty sure ISFJ was being all insecure or something and fooling around while flirting or hooking up with or whatever you two were doing.

This seems like something about secrets and guilt, not disrespect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yeah it sucks. But I only have to see her for another week.

I'm not "head over heels," so to speak, and I've made mental lists as to why there is no way she and I would work out (as I tend to do with women--damn Ni), so the biggest blow is to our friendship. We were seriously tight and because a guy has entered her life (a guy that Will be out of her life just as quickly), I assume that's why she's treating me as if I've offended her.

There is no time in my life for immaturity. I would definitely not get along with a girl that I, apparently, offended so harshly to the point that she can't even look at me, yet I can't even pinpoint what I've done wrong. That, to me, is messy and includes a lot of overanalysis and accepting what others say ad the truth.

For what it's worth, she said "hello" to me this morning, but it sounded incredibly forced and almost condescending. I was short with her.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I came to the same conclusion. She actually seems like she isn't into the OP and feels guilty for it, because she's being all immature and with somebody else just for the sake of being with somebody (or he was that person). How hard OP would have to try is too much for how he feels about her I think.

Something that really popped out: "you're better than her". Pretty sure ISFJ was being all insecure or something and fooling around while flirting or hooking up with or whatever you two were doing.

This seems like something about secrets and guilt, not disrespect.
Feeling guilty for not being into me? I don't understand that at all.
 

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Feeling guilty for not being into me? I don't understand that at all.
Guilty for how her actions make her look in comparison to your actions. While you make genuine actions, hers are all over the place. She doesn't see equality between you two. I don't think it's about not being into you because I don't think she is in a position to have a genuine understanding of her feelings to know that she's not into you. There is natural guilt when confused.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Guilty for how her actions make her look in comparison to your actions. While you make genuine actions, hers are all over the place. She doesn't see equality between you two. I don't think it's about not being into you because I don't think she is in a position to have a genuine understanding of her feelings to know that she's not into you. There is natural guilt when confused.
So I've been a gentleman to her.

I'm confused because it sounds like you are all saying she may have feelings for me, but feels guilty because she's seeing another guy (even if she doesn't really like the other guy, she's content enough) yet she DOESN'T have feelings for me?

Very confused.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
She brought her new boy to my baseball game (I coach her students).

Done.

Funny thing is this guy was engaged, and his ex-fiance still chill.

Relationships are convoluted.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So UPDATE:

She's definitely dating this new guy. Definitely. This guy was engaged, was set to be married earlier this year, and something happened. Don't know what, but something.

I don't blame her, really. Understanding MBTI, he comes across as an ESTP, so that would explain their compatibility. Also, he's a very interesting dude (he's a television news reporter, is into photography, does really cool things, meets cool people, seems very quirky, and he's good looking dude). I can't blame her for wanting to date him, honestly (it's actually surprising to me because, frankly, he's rather exciting and she's not NEARLY as exciting -- perhaps this adds to their compatibility).

I don't know if they "tried again," but a couple of months ago, he posted on his Instagram a pic of him and his ex-fiancee and how they were spending a "week of quality time together."

He has since removed this photo, which makes me think that he's incredibly serious about my co-teacher.

ANYWAY, so for the time being, I just don't have a chance with this girl. It seems as if she's (and he's) crushing pretty hard.
As long as she's happy, I guess (and as long as I don't have to see them both together).

HOWEVER,
Today was my last day. I was in class, and the girl asked if she could steal me for a second. She got me a beer mug w/ a design that she clearly did herself, notepads with my name imprinted on them (something you have to order in the mail), AND a well thought out card. In the card, she said she valued my friendship and that she and I should "hang out" now that we no longer work together, and that I should keep in touch with her.

It was REALLY sweet.

I don't think I'm ever going to call her. I don't think I want to be her friend, but I'm happy we are on good terms. If I try the whole "friends" thing, I have a feeling I'm just going to fall hard.

Am I wrong for thinking this?

If I DO hang out with her, it's going to have to be HER calling ME, and once, maybe twice, a month AT MOST. I just won't be her "just a friend."
 

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So UPDATE:

She's definitely dating this new guy. Definitely. This guy was engaged, was set to be married earlier this year, and something happened. Don't know what, but something.

I don't blame her, really. Understanding MBTI, he comes across as an ESTP, so that would explain their compatibility. Also, he's a very interesting dude (he's a television news reporter, is into photography, does really cool things, meets cool people, seems very quirky, and he's good looking dude). I can't blame her for wanting to date him, honestly (it's actually surprising to me because, frankly, he's rather exciting and she's not NEARLY as exciting -- perhaps this adds to their compatibility).

I don't know if they "tried again," but a couple of months ago, he posted on his Instagram a pic of him and his ex-fiancee and how they were spending a "week of quality time together."

He has since removed this photo, which makes me think that he's incredibly serious about my co-teacher.

ANYWAY, so for the time being, I just don't have a chance with this girl. It seems as if she's (and he's) crushing pretty hard.
As long as she's happy, I guess (and as long as I don't have to see them both together).

HOWEVER,
Today was my last day. I was in class, and the girl asked if she could steal me for a second. She got me a beer mug w/ a design that she clearly did herself, notepads with my name imprinted on them (something you have to order in the mail), AND a well thought out card. In the card, she said she valued my friendship and that she and I should "hang out" now that we no longer work together, and that I should keep in touch with her.

It was REALLY sweet.

I don't think I'm ever going to call her. I don't think I want to be her friend, but I'm happy we are on good terms. If I try the whole "friends" thing, I have a feeling I'm just going to fall hard.

Am I wrong for thinking this?

If I DO hang out with her, it's going to have to be HER calling ME, and once, maybe twice, a month AT MOST. I just won't be her "just a friend."
i think this is a nice end to everything. i am glad that you guys ended on a good term. yes make sure its she call you and not you call her. and seriously, do not think too much about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
i think this is a nice end to everything. i am glad that you guys ended on a good term. yes make sure its she call you and not you call her. and seriously, do not think too much about it.
I'm going to be way too busy to think about it.

Some people say her asking to "hang out" is opening the door for me, but I don't think it's wise to walk through. I don't want to compete with another guy, and it'd be her having her cake and eating it too.

I'll wait for her to be the aggressor here (and don't think that's going to happen...she's an ISFJ).
 

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I'm glad that you know exactly what you don't want, and that you know precisely what you don't want to be. That right there is self-respect and, quite frankly, confidence.
 

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Sorry ahead of time if this comes out as more of a rant, but I was on the other side of this just recently, so let me explain it.

I had a co-worker with a crush on me that was casually paying me compliments and then eventually asked me out. I was not at all interested in him in that way, but I completely value his friendship and probably trust him more than anyone I work with. At that point, I had never been asked out before and had absolutely no idea how to turn him down without feeling like I was going to hurt him, so I just tried my best to avoid him after that, which in my mind meant keeping away from the topic and therefore saving him from ever being hurt. I pretty much gave him the silent treatment for about 2 weeks before I slowly warmed up to him again. Now we're still good friends, but I think he got the hint, so he keeps his distance.

Halfway through all of that, I felt really bad, but I didn't know how to respond. I was literally panicking inside. It was what I felt was the safest route. I still avoid people who I think like me because I don't want to make things akward. Sometimes I don't think guys realize how it affects certain girls. We value your friendship so much and then they try to turn it into something we never wanted, which in turn destroys everything you did have in the first place.

All I'm saying is, don't assume she was trying to be disrespectful and mean. I'm sure that there were more mature ways to go about it, but in the long run, that might have been the safest thing she could think to do at the time. Her getting closer to you again and trying to be thoughtful is the exact balance I tried to bring back with my friend. We still care, but we have to take two steps back to confirm it won't go anywhere past that.

It sounds to me like she really cares about you, but she needs you there as just a friend. :)
 

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Am I wrong for thinking this?

If I DO hang out with her, it's going to have to be HER calling ME, and once, maybe twice, a month AT MOST. I just won't be her "just a friend."
Not really. If a person is sincere, their actions match their words. Words are meaningless if their actions say otherwise.

I think it's a smart choice as it'll allow you to see what her intentions are. If she was really serious about the friendship, she would make the effort to lay down the foundations for it (ex. initializing, showing you why she deserve to be friends with you) as SHE'S the one asking you for it.

As an ISFJ, if I think someone is worth the friendship, I WILL make the effort and pursue it intently. I wouldn't ask if I had no intention of pursuing it. But that's just me. Your mileage with other ISFJs are different.

Good for you for setting boundaries.
 
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