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Ultimate Questionnaire - which Thinker am I?

2K views 35 replies 7 participants last post by  LindaV 
#1 · (Edited)
1.) Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.

I'm a woman, in my mid-30s tho I don't look like it : p.

2.) What kind of person are you and why?

Thats always such a hard question for me. Maybe see the next question.

3.) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else?

I never give up...if I want something I will do it/get it/achieve it. I'm opinionated and antagonistic often, but also very non-judgmental of people and helpful. Thats like a paradox or something, lol

4.) Do you think there are any differences between how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?

Thats how they perceive me. And I have to agree with them.

The people that dont like me also perceive me as difficult, but I dont worry about that. Ive been also told that its better if people either like me or dont like me than if they have no response to me at all. Like being a strong personality is better than being no person at all. Maybe....

5.) How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?

Ill try to see if I can take action or if I have to wait to get my bearings first.

Also I hate it when people make things vague to manipulate, I get upset. Because thats definitely so much of an UNKNOWN. So I get very upset. Thats how I "deal" with it lol but Ive learned to be more calculating myself in these situations since then. Its helped. It makes me feel more in control.

6.) Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?

I dont really think about either. Too much of either is too much is my relationship to them. They just mean the dictionary definitions to me. Order manifests in my life by being OCD about some things and that annoying me lol. But its compulsive anyway. I cant help it. And sometimes order is just nice and neat and stable anyway. And can allow for more control. And chaos manifests by me creating chaos for certain people ??? Some people feel Im too challenging for them and thats how chaos gets created for them. Other than that, Id rather control chaos, like I like to feel in control.

7.) You are given a reasonable budget and must buy and prepare a Holiday (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.) dinner. What are you thinking? What do you buy? What do you do?

No I hate cooking. I will say "NO" to this. Ill have someone else do it.

8.) Do you see ideas as revolving around core concepts or as gateways to new ideas?

Neither sounds all that exciting to me tbh lol. If Im brutally honest, this just hurt my head. I can wade through a lot of abstract crap if I need to but beyond that I dont really know or care which one I do more, whichever one works for what Im doing is okay. But note here, it usually doesn't work for whatever Im doing. So Id rather just not deal with the abstract junk. I only try when I feel Im forced to, when I feel I dont have another option. Its very stressful.

9.) Do you find yourself to be obsessive about topics? Do you continually divine value from something you already understand or do you move on once you feel you have a fair enough understanding?

I'm actually more obsessive about my goals. But I get the most obsessive about relationships really and about planning things out to deal with relationship problems because its a lot of stress to me otherwise. If I can figure out what action to take then Im already good but thats harder to do with relationships. Planning is much easier for other things.

If I already understand something then I love to utilise that. So you could say I move on from the understanding to the utilisation of it, but I can also try and understand more while I already utilise it too. Then I have even more fun.

But. If utilising it counts as "divining value" then my answer is "yes, I continually divine value from something I already understand". And then after I achieved my goal I somehow slowly move on to something else. Not until then though. Until then I do the continual utilisation.

10.) What do you like about traveling and what would you do if you could travel anywhere?

Oh yeah I like travelling to see things and just to wander around and stuff. I could travel anywhere really if I wanted to and I want to get to it later, when Im less busy and sorted out other things.

And what I would do, just enjoy travelling itself!, go see various cities, swim, surf, etc in the sea, find seashells, get tanned on the beach, eat good stuff in restaurants, run in cities, roads, on trails, hard terrain, climb mountains, see movies, etc etc. Whatever there is to do. Meet some people maybe yeah like it would be fun to travel to meet someone I got to know online.

11.) What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?

This is pretty deep you know. Im interested in romantic relationship/family and career, achievement itself, and being well-off. To enjoy the relationship, the passion, family support, family life, enjoy the competition and my expertise, spend money and enjoy things.

12.) What type do you think you are? Why this/these type(s)? Is there a type that appeals to you, to your self-perception, that you would like to be? Why?

Definitely got a "Thinking" preference. Im comfortable with objective analysis and I suck at emotion. As for other preferences, P appealed to me but then J appealed to me too and I dont know now anymore.

Edit: The type that appeals to me but I am not it, ENTJ, its just cool that they have ambition and vision besides being objective and sensible (unless triggered and overemotional). Why I am not it, because I don't have their vision, and why I would like to be like that, its just cool, and it feels like you can achieve more things that way.


Thanks a lot!
 
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#2 ·
3.) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else?

I never give up...if I want something I will do it/get it/achieve it. I'm opinionated and antagonistic often, but also very non-judgmental of people and helpful. Thats like a paradox or something, lol
Yeah a little.


4.) Do you think there are any differences between how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?
Thats how they perceive me. And I have to agree with them.

The people that dont like me also perceive me as difficult, but I dont worry about that. Ive been also told that its better if people either like me or dont like me than if they have no response to me at all. Like being a strong personality is better than being no person at all. Maybe....
Okay so you are confrontational.


5.) How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?
Ill try to see if I can take action or if I have to wait to get my bearings first.

Also I hate it when people make things vague to manipulate, I get upset. Because thats definitely so much of an UNKNOWN. So I get very upset. Thats how I "deal" with it lol but Ive learned to be more calculating myself in these situations since then. Its helped. It makes me feel more in control.
Yeah I would say for sure you are an extraverted thinker.


6.) Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?
I dont really think about either. Too much of either is too much is my relationship to them. They just mean the dictionary definitions to me. Order manifests in my life by being OCD about some things and that annoying me lol. But its compulsive anyway. I cant help it. And sometimes order is just nice and neat and stable anyway. And can allow for more control. And chaos manifests by me creating chaos for certain people ??? Some people feel Im too challenging for them and thats how chaos gets created for them. Other than that, Id rather control chaos, like I like to feel in control.
generally E__J people answer this question like this


7.) You are given a reasonable budget and must buy and prepare a Holiday (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.) dinner. What are you thinking? What do you buy? What do you do?
No I hate cooking. I will say "NO" to this. Ill have someone else do it.
rip


8.) Do you see ideas as revolving around core concepts or as gateways to new ideas?
Neither sounds all that exciting to me tbh lol. If Im brutally honest, this just hurt my head. I can wade through a lot of abstract crap if I need to but beyond that I dont really know or care which one I do more, whichever one works for what Im doing is okay. But note here, it usually doesn't work for whatever Im doing. So Id rather just not deal with the abstract junk. I only try when I feel Im forced to, when I feel I dont have another option. Its very stressful.
S


9.) Do you find yourself to be obsessive about topics? Do you continually divine value from something you already understand or do you move on once you feel you have a fair enough understanding?
I'm actually more obsessive about my goals. But I get the most obsessive about relationships really and about planning things out to deal with relationship problems because its a lot of stress to me otherwise. If I can figure out what action to take then Im already good but thats harder to do with relationships. Planning is much easier for other things.

If I already understand something then I love to utilise that. So you could say I move on from the understanding to the utilisation of it, but I can also try and understand more while I already utilise it too. Then I have even more fun.

But. If utilising it counts as "divining value" then my answer is "yes, I continually divine value from something I already understand". And then after I achieved my goal I somehow slowly move on to something else. Not until then though. Until then I do the continual utilisation.
S
Divine means to read into something intuitively. "Divining value" meaning you see a hidden thing behind the object. Most people do this to some extent where intuitives will do this as a primary role of perception, and this question is particularly aimed at introverted intuitives who are described as cranks (eccentric by obsession) by Jung. You seem to constantly reject the hidden perception though, so I would guess you are not an N. The previous question regards the notion of a hidden meaning revolving around a central theme (Ni) vs hidden connections leading to new opportunities (Ne).


10.) What do you like about traveling and what would you do if you could travel anywhere?
Oh yeah I like travelling to see things and just to wander around and stuff. I could travel anywhere really if I wanted to and I want to get to it later, when Im less busy and sorted out other things.

And what I would do, just enjoy travelling itself!, go see various cities, swim, surf, etc in the sea, find seashells, get tanned on the beach, eat good stuff in restaurants, run in cities, roads, on trails, hard terrain, climb mountains, see movies, etc etc. Whatever there is to do. Meet some people maybe yeah like it would be fun to travel to meet someone I got to know online.
S


11.) What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?
This is pretty deep you know. Im interested in romantic relationship/family and career, achievement itself, and being well-off. To enjoy the relationship, the passion, family support, family life, enjoy the competition and my expertise, spend money and enjoy things.

12.) What type do you think you are? Why this/these type(s)? Is there a type that appeals to you, to your self-perception, that you would like to be? Why?

Definitely got a "Thinking" preference. Im comfortable with objective analysis and I suck at emotion. As for other preferences, P appealed to me but then J appealed to me too and I dont know now anymore.

Edit: The type that appeals to me but I am not it, ENTJ, its just cool that they have ambition and vision besides being objective and sensible (unless triggered and overemotional). Why I am not it, because I don't have their vision, and why I would like to be like that, its just cool, and it feels like you can achieve more things that way.


Thanks a lot!

I think ESTJ. You are pretty consistently Te which is that you want things to be yes or no and seem to hate when things get muddied. That seemed to be the theme in your answers. Another one was that of confrontation, and Te dominant types are known to be very forward about how things are. Si in that you want to manage how the thing is not what the thing might be.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the responses guys!

Ill add my response too.

Yeah a little.

Okay so you are confrontational.

(...)

Divine means to read into something intuitively. "Divining value" meaning you see a hidden thing behind the object. Most people do this to some extent where intuitives will do this as a primary role of perception, and this question is particularly aimed at introverted intuitives who are described as cranks (eccentric by obsession) by Jung. You seem to constantly reject the hidden perception though, so I would guess you are not an N. The previous question regards the notion of a hidden meaning revolving around a central theme (Ni) vs hidden connections leading to new opportunities (Ne).

I think ESTJ. You are pretty consistently Te which is that you want things to be yes or no and seem to hate when things get muddied. That seemed to be the theme in your answers. Another one was that of confrontation, and Te dominant types are known to be very forward about how things are. Si in that you want to manage how the thing is not what the thing might be.
For the first part. Its not just me being confrontational. Sure Im argumentative with my opinions or whatever it is I think about something. Like if I dont agree I just seem to ignore what others think and say what I think instead. I dont actually ignore it tho, I just need my strong arguments to take it in. And Im actually open to that even when Im accused that Im not. But Im not totally eccentric or believe in a lot of fringe stuff or anything like that. When I seem to ignore the groupthink, its simply that things did not make sense to me. Plus Im loud about that stuff when I think its important. Then I create the chaos that I mentioned too:) Whether I want it to or not, it happens.... Not everyone likes it. So all that is what I meant.

Oh and yeah I originally didn't understand what that was about divining value, thanks. Thought it just meant deriving value. I dont really see hidden things behind stuff, no. I think that would drive me crazy:)

So yes I dont like vagueness like I said, I would agree with your summary there. I don't always need decisions or whatever, but I dont want to be unclear about things.

I dont think I understood the Si thing. Wanting to manage how the thing is not what the thing might be?
 
#14 · (Edited)
I think I will add more on the "strong personality" thingy. Ie whats controversial about me....I will at times when very convinced of something, push for action as well, and quite aggressively, yes. I always believe in it very strongly, and its always to be supportive of others really. Its not simply for my own good or whatever. But it gets controversial yea.

Some people actually like it.....others misunderstand the forcefulness. I once got told that its addictive getting help from me like that. o_O The person deffinitely needed to do more than just sit and complain and I was giving them energy. Ive actually spent time on building up people like that one on one. But Ive stopped doing that because Im now more like....its not my responsibility if someone cant get off their asses to do things. And Im dealing with a lot myself in my life now.

Maybe if Im back to a more uh, peaceful period in my life then Ill again put energy into that lol. But I just don't know if I will be that enthusiastic about it again. And pushy, yeah.

The other thing I used to have alot of patience for was explain and explain....to these people mostly yeah. Like, if they were confused about where to go, figure out what to do, lol. I would deal with like.... answering 1000 questions constantly. Stories told to me in medias res where I had to figure it out for them. Messy details all over the place for me to sort them out.

Dont tell me that those people are INFP! lol

But yes I think I was overdoing that. I just have this thingy that if someone really needs help in a very hard situation then I seriously feel obligated to do something.

The less nice side of it was that I couldn't tolerate it if someone got to be TOO much of a complainer. I mean these people would all be complaining and then Id do all the above for them. But if someone did too much of it I would see them as just too weak and it would irritate me and make me extra aggressive. I still wanted to help them but Iwas also taking my aggression out on them because of hating to see weakness. So like getting extra rough. (Not proud of it looking back)

Is that an ESTJ thing?

And Im thinking that I don't actually like that I got just pushy and no fun eventually. Like its a long story but yeah. I can (used to be able to) help and build people up while being more fun and all but I got too negative eventually, again its a long story as to why or how. I don't even remember how to be fun anymore about any of it, lol. Plus its hard to be fun about it when people are just being complainers.

How are ESTJs with that? Are they concerned with that at all? About how they come off to people. I got seriously obsessed with it in the last couple of years. I got this weird idea in my head that I need to improve on it. Id be interested in how that relates to type if it relates at all.
 
#16 ·
I used to "aggressively helping" important people too and they liked my energy and confidence as well.
And complaints and whining instead of taking action greatly annoy too.
I think this isn't necessarily ESTJ thing, but a general tendency of strong Te users.
 
#15 ·
Tbh. I still do support people lol Im just not so intense and enthusiastic about it while busy dealing with my own life. I only check up on them here and there and I do specific things for them sometimes. But I keep making plans anyway for helping them more LOL.

I think one of them is an ISFJ. And the other one is an INTP or INTJ. No INFPs now. The INTx is close to being real suicidal. And I got to tread real careful around her. The ISFJ sometimes drives me mad with being hard to move because of all the ISFJ anxieties, lol. But we are very OK on the whole. I learned to be patient with that stuff.

Oh. And the plans I make for them are like, I keep having to adjust them. Because I cant really decide instead of them about their goals. I will adjust to their goals and help with them. If that made sense. So that's why I always adjust the plans. But it makes me feel good if I do plans about them lol. Always with action in mind.
 
#18 ·
@LindaV
Is that your introversion being selective?
Yes, I would exhaust my energy and time too quickly otherwise.
Another thing I would be doing is taking care of some things to be done myself, instead of getting these people to do everything themselves. Do you do that too?
It is easier to guarantee that it will be done correctly that way, but I do it only occasionally when mistakes are not allowed.
I mostly self-centered and prefer to direct instead of intervening.
 
#21 ·
Hey all...I'm back. I've been observing myself and I still dont feel like Im that organised like a proper J. I change my plans so easily... do ESTJs do that a lot?

Its weird with me because Im like I can commit very hard to a specific plan and get royally pissed if I have to change that then. But its like I need inspiration to commit so much to it? If that made sense??

And when I dont have the inspiration then I dont have plans set in stone like that lol. Then I change them really fast whenever.

The goal matters though. Like I can change plans, sure, but the goal itself is what matters, what I want to get or achieve. And it could be any goal from immediate to longer term goals, though Ive never had a goal that was more longer term than a couple years maybe.

Id be interested in trying what it feels like to have a goal thats longer term than that. But that'll need a lot of inspiration first : p

And examples of such goals would be involving a specific career that Id be sticking to (and goals for that) or a relationship to end up in having a marriage and family. You know, that final commitment.

So yeah. Ive never done any type of goal or direction longer than like 3-4 years. Like, I've never focused on a specific type of business or job for longer than that, either so the associated goals also were not longer term than that.

Is all this typical for ESTJ? For any J type?

Thanks for any input on this.

PS: And when I talk of inspiration I can't really get more specific than that. Its like having a sorta vision. That I want to achieve as a goal afterwards and have focus for it and work hard for it. And thats really cool too. I dont know if that has anything to do with MBTI but if it does Im all ears on this one too.
 
#22 ·
Or another example is I did competitive sports, training and racing hard and completely felt at home with it btw, like it was totally MY life. But I wasnt at it for longer than ~4 years again then something else happened. But I have goals in racing that I havent got to yet so I didnt drop it at all and am coming back to it all. I already did once but then I was pulled away again. But I am coming back to it. Id feel like I'd die if I couldnt for some reason. So its like I do have longer term goals than 3-4 years but I can go and do something else for whatever reason, dont ask, though its not me simply giving up or losing interest. Its basically that I have other important goals too and somehow the focus needs to be switched to them sometimes. And that something else that happened btw it was another extremely important thing in my life so yeah...I just would like 48 hours in a day LOL. Then I could do it all at the same time. But yes, that switching isnt done in some conscious way, it just happens. I realise in retrospect only.

Im posting all that to show my cognitive/thought process more.
 
#24 · (Edited)
They are really different in my experience. The problem is that when I imagine them in my mind, I imagine men, so a lot of testosterone-driven behaviour will be mixed in within my conceptualization of them. But maybe that's not a problem for you, because you can still sense to what type of a person you are more alike.

Both ESTJs and ESTPs can be alpha males, but they are much different people. ESTJ will be more controlled, more organized, which will lead to better grades in school, and higher salary later in life. ESTJs (alongside ENTJs) are often menagers of corporations, having high salaries. They are constructive, goal oriented, learn well from past experience.

ESTPs are often like forces of nature. If they are confident, they exude physical presence. They can also be passionate, be loud, be friendly in large crowds, but also they reason well when speaking, they can be really logical and make sense. ESTJ is more logical in his behaviour, ESTP is more logical in his talk. ESTJ will likely pick a clear career and be diligent, climbing the ranks if he is intelligent and well adjusted. ESTP will be more prone to career switching, opening his own business without prior experience in the field, and success will often come to them because of their hard work.

My best friend in junior high was an ESTJ, he was the most popular guy in school because he was an athlete, strong and good looking, and he was intelligent as well! So I'm not saying that ESTJs are not physical... I'm just saying they will not be as physical and animated in their interaction with the outer world and other people, unless the situation requires it. ESTPs will love to do physical pranks on others, and you will see them laughing their asses off, maybe even rolling on the floor.

Hope this helps a bit.
OK so I said I'd respond to this in my own thread. Thanks again, nice summary. You or anyone else can respond, if you feel like, this is also me thinking out loud. So feel free to just skim randomly or whatever... I'm gonna bold some stuff for that actually.

So lol speaking of hormones and neurotransmitters I feel like I run on dopamine and testosterone depends on that dopamine if that made any sense at all... I like to read about biology and hormones and all that, I like to get my own sense of how they affect me. ... I also run on serotonin a lot besides the dopamine and I have tangible evidence for this one!! When I tried a serotonin based medication, very similar to SSRI medication, it was me being on steroids LOL. (Minus the crappy side effects) I didn't actually like it, I don't need more serotonin tbh.

So...I was a grade A student - not diligent tho!! - and project management feels like very natural knowledge to me lol but I've never been an actual manager, I've only ever done my own business, either completely on my own or with business partners or freelance, I never wanted to be an actual employee working 9-5 lol. I decided as a kid not to do that ever (unless sure like I'm really forced to for a while or something but yeah otherwise no). And yes each time I jumped in without experience and then worked hard.

And yeah, I've never done an actual career so far, I never stuck to anything longer than a few years. I have ever only had one "vision" in mind for a career but I still don't know if I'll get there, I haven't actually committed to it. Anyway yes! hard work, that's how I ever got anywhere so far. But career started to interest me too lately. Depends on if I want that "vision" in the end. I need to get more information on it first and need to get other things achieved first. In a couple of years is when I will decide on it. Or maybe I just need to be like, believe in it and then I can decide fast.

It's weird too because while I actually do the "ESTP thing" with switching stuff (plus the only typology label I've ever related to was that ESTP label of "entrepreneur" or whatever it was. Yes it was an ESTP label, not ENTJ), I want to also be able to say that I've been doing X career and get to a very high level there. It's like I got two different motivations that fight sometimes. o_O I will be honest tho and say that I want to be able to say the latter because of the social status and type of achievement it carries with it. I'm mainly motivated by money, possessions, achievement and social prestige. In the sense that THAT is what drives me long-term. Like... when I pick my goal.

But I need some immediate motivator too to keep on track for the goal and that's not always money tho it can be. But things like commitment, sense of justice, these have been direct motivators in-the-moment for me often and I don't really understand how that works. It can also be a fear of failure if nothing else works to motivate me in the moment, lol. But yeah, usually these things. And if absolutely, absolutely nothing else works then I try to remember the original goal too. Or if someone needs the help and I know they would be "happy", sometimes that motivates me as well.

With that career idea though... the one I didn't decide on. I have an extra motivation besides the prestige and social stuff, and it's that it's intellectually challenging. To the extent that it would truly stay a challenge for my brain. Long-term too!! And that's where it all REALLY comes together for me. Maybe too well, too, lol. There must be a reason why I didn't decide on it yet.

I will also say, it would be nice to BELIEVE in the career, like if you decide to be a doctor, you can have a really strong belief and vision about how it is such a great thing and great contribution to society. I'd like to be able to have that somehow. I did contribute and help people with things before, and so you could say I contributed to society but it's just not the same thing as when it's a structured career and "mission" to believe in. Or whatever.

Yes I'm very constructive when I'm not too pissed off. : p But even then...I still don't want bad drama even when I'm very angry. I'm still goal oriented then too and that DOES help keep my head screwed on. I don't learn well from past experience lol well depends on what experience. If it's personal or has very bad consequences, I will learn from it alright, otherwise not, I get too easy-going and plain forget the bad experience. Has its advantages and disadvantages too : p

I don't remember if I was ever told that my behaviour is logical, hm. Maybe. If this counts, I've got comments on it going by some predictable schedule. An NF friend made that comment and I was really surprised, and I told them, no, maybe for a while I do things at the same time of the day but then it all gets switched up somehow.

I've had a lot of comments on how logical I talk, tho. I remember those easily. Heard that from many people. (The other one I always hear is that I'm aggressive or forceful.) The same NF girl said that too, lol. That she likes my explanations and how they are nice and clear to her. And tbh that felt VERY validating. But I think it felt so validating only because I was really close to her overall. I don't care otherwise, lol.

She was horrible though when it came to doing business together. Let's just say, I'm not ever going to try and do business again with any NF, lol (unless they have their head screwed on extremely well or something lool, but I'm NOT judging anyone here). When it didn't come to business or any money related matters, it was working out better for us, she even complimented me on that once. That I don't jump into every of her ideas, only the practical ones, sometimes. : p I was shocked when she said that because idk, I had no idea that THAT is appreciated by anyone lol. I dunno what that says about type... and yes I'm sure it would help if I decided on a type for her. : p

She also said she liked that I was not rigid like other people she knows, like, she had this bf who planned out the entire itinerary if they went somewhere and he would get rigid with it, really uptight about the schedule. With us though, when we went on a holiday together, she would be the one who would think of ideas on what to do, I was more like, let's go there and when we are there we can figure out where to go, what to do, lol. So I don't think ahead like that until she did but she was kind of chaotic about it. I was less chaotic. Kept the plan as simple as possible tho. I did follow the rough itinerary with her afterwards but she didn't notice that it was actually a plan, I don't think : p As it wasn't planned out in detail, I didn't talk about it at length (did I even mention it at all? that there was a plan). And if we actually had some better idea to do I would switch to that no problem. Unlike her bf. I don't know if this counts as being uptight like a J: I did easily get pissed if we ran into trouble with the "simple plan", finding our way in a whole new city abroad and I took all responsibility on myself like that, but I would always get over it quickly. Yes, I think taking on all responsibility is what made me a tiny bit uptight, even if I enjoyed the responsibility at the same time... Im like that in general. I'm sometimes too relaxed as if there was no tomorrow, and sometimes too uptight when I really take on the responsibility.

My brother is very J (some kind of NFJ) with holidays... we actually went with him once for another holiday. He started by insisting I and she be there at the airport 3 hours early or something... that was still okay because we didn't travel together to the airport. So I just did my usual thing of getting there just on time, in a rush but I enjoy that rush and she never had a problem with that. I also told her to meet me at X time at Y place before we'd go to the airport. No problem, she would do it and trusted me fine. During the holiday it was kind of boring when he said "we'll view this place now, then we'll view that place". Lol. But the problem came really when we were going to go back to the airport for the flight back. We found this café thingy and I wanted to stay longer, drink my coffee and just sit and relax. While my brother was getting really nervous, talking about how long it's going to get there, and then he plain left us behind to go to the airport... I found that really rude too, like shocked that he was willing to leave us behind just like that. But somehow I just couldn't calm him down. I was tbh just staring at him like, no it's not possible to get THAT delayed (unless catastrophy). But he wouldn't listen to reason lol. :shrug My friend was just kinda not saying anything, other than this comment to me that she trusts me because I always get to places just in time. In the end we went after my brother, found him, and blah blah, we of course still had time to get there. I just really run on instinct for these things.

Where my brother and my friend are very similar tho are those ideas for business. Where they would try to excite me, especially my brother but tbh it's hard to get me excited with random business ideas. Usually it's too much pain in the ass to bother or to put it nicer, it's just not a realistic goal for the amount of work required, and I know they don't actually consider that. : p The one little difference is that she would bring up business ideas less often than my brother. My brother also stopped since then, as he finally found some direction for himself to actually do something.

You also mention ESTJ doing physical stuff too. Yeah me and racing, that is what truly took my interest like nothing else (except for the above career "vision"). I started too late to be a professional athlete tho and I come from a family where everyone has university degrees so I was always like... it's fine, it would not be okay if I didn't do some more intellectual thing too and was just doing the racing and training all day. Tho tbh it sounds like a dream too if I think about it enough. : p Ive read about how professional athletes live, and it's literally like 10 hours every day of training, the right rest (incl sleep during the day) and eating, then again training, and complementary training etc. etc. Then relax in the evening and go out with friends or whatever else. So I know it would take up my days fine and that I would not miss other things. And I'll always resent it that they didn't give me a vision like that in school even when I was actually interested in getting into competition in sports. They sent me to a lot of competitions in many subjects and I enjoyed all the competition and winning but sports was the only one I myself thought of to compete in. : p I didn't mind what subject it was though if I could win or get a good enough result at least, it didn't matter if it was mathematics or literature or grammar or chemistry etc etc. OK, maybe I didn't enjoy literature competitions that much :shrug

And talking to other people I'm actually animated and it would feel weird not to be at all animated. (I mean other than in formal situations, of course I'm not animated there.) But it would also be weird to be animated because the situation requires it...idk. It's spontaneous for me. The last time I did physical pranks was in middle school I think lol. I don't even remember anymore. Rolling on the floor... Fuck no, I'm not THAT social. : p You gotta really relax me first for me to do such a thing. lol.

Anyway where I do feel J is that I want a direction to follow for my goals. I'm just not going to plan it all out in detail. But when I get committed like fuck, then I get actually rigid, no question about that. I love feeling committed and believing in it like that and get very focused and tunnel visioned alright and I enjoy that too. I would not feel good if I was to be aimless. It's a very stressful thing to me to feel aimless. Plus I like to... Judge, for sure, lol. Have definite opinions and talk about them a lot.
 
#25 · (Edited)
You sound very much like an ESTP in this entire post. You notice emotions of others (Fe), talks in an expressive fashion (Fe), you also say you are animated in social situations (Se), flexible, hard working. Your 'vision' sounds like inferior Ni that actually does appeal to you and you would love to create it but you cannot easily stick to it long enough because reacting to immediate circumstances seems to be more exciting or more urgent (on the contrary, me as an Ni dominant have been working on the same personal obsession for the last 7 years. Many things changed along the way, except my dedication and knowledge of what I am living for. It will take me another 3-5 years to see first proper results, and a lifetime to complete it.)

But lets get back to you - yeah, you switch your daily schedule every now and then, you get compliments about talking logically and making sense, but you are not praised for "logical decisions" (by logical decisions, I ment those that would be praised as being the mature thing to do - prioritizing well-known benefitial habits and tools, such as keeping a regular schedule, finishing work (or study) first and only then play. Plan short term to maximize your efficiency so you don't have to worry too much about failing to meet a deadline.) I don't see you as ESTJ after this post, ESTP sounds way more convicing.

You asked me how I as INFJ perceive those types, and what are some of my personal experience with them. I would say ESTJs are most often perplexed about me and don't even know what to think, we operate on totally different wavelenghts. I think ESTJs, if they like me, would love me as an interesting alien dude that offers a perspective that nobody else does. And if they pay attention, they will notice I am very often right about things that only later show themselves, and then they might see me as a valuable asset, for example - in determining someones intentions and potential hidden motives.

But, to simplify, most ESTJs avoided me. ESTPs on the other hand... it's like we operate on opposite wavelenghts. Because of this, we often notice each other, and there is high potential of a clash, and somewhat of a potential for a mutually benefitial relationship. For example, ESTPs will use their animated and cheerful presence to effect people, to make others love them (dominant Se working in tandem with tertiary Fe), while I will be on the side, observing them do it and I can easily know why, and with what (secret) goal.

On the other hand, they can easily push my buttons and they will try to. I think ESTPs can easily bully INFJs, at least if they are physically bigger (thankfully I'm 6'4, and quickwitted, so I didnt have problems with bullies). Different ESTPs in my life tried to make fun of me in social situations with comments that would try to make it obvious to others that I am constantly in my head, that I am weird and like an alien, even though they actually respect me, or are in a way amazed by me. I think ESTPs see people like me as special and unique in a magical way, but I think they don't feel like they can get to know me. I wouldn't be surprised many ESTPs actually fall in love with INFJs of the opposite sex because Ni-Fe seems like a side of themselves they are least comfortable with, but would love to actually be able to understand and use.

So basically, I can be a problem to an ESTP because I understand them and they cannot hide things from me, they can be a problem for me, because they can highlight to others my introspective, imaginative and disconnected personality. In conversation, I can make them feel vulnerable by being compassionate and trying to help them solve an issue they've been failing to solve for a while. They can easily help me deal with some emergency situation in the real world.

So in conclusion, my experience with (male) ESTPs as an INFJ guy - we scare each other, and can even grow envious.

Edit: I added a few things
 
#26 ·
Lol, i just realized I talked more about how those two types perceive me than I do them. Whatever, it will still be useful. But in a certain way, I see them from my own perspective as alien and weird.

I always learn a lot from ESTJs, some of them are just so good at what they do, but they seem to me unimaginative and too... hmmm... superficial, but in a boring way. And ESTPs... well, I admire them or I hate them, usually one of those two things. ESTPs also are superficial often, but way less than ESTJs in my perspective. ESTPs also have a type of fun that I often would like to have, pure, raw, high energy, flexible fun that says - "lets just go there and figure things out! Its going to be a blast!" Thats so great!
 
#29 ·
Lol, i just realized I talked more about how those two types perceive me than I do them. Whatever, it will still be useful. But in a certain way, I see them from my own perspective as alien and weird.

I always learn a lot from ESTJs, some of them are just so good at what they do, but they seem to me unimaginative and too... hmmm... superficial, but in a boring way. And ESTPs... well, I admire them or I hate them, usually one of those two things. ESTPs also are superficial often, but way less than ESTJs in my perspective. ESTPs also have a type of fun that I often would like to have, pure, raw, high energy, flexible fun that says - "lets just go there and figure things out! Its going to be a blast!" Thats so great!
I see this now. Oh yeah, well if I'm ESTP I hope it won't be the hate version, but I said anyway that it's fine. : p (Don't take me seriously)

Tbh I'm not THAT relaxed and positive and fun. Yes I have that attitude about being easy going and jumping in when I decided to so I'm optimistic in that way but I'm...just not so totally happy-go-lucky or whatever. I'm like...like I just said, I have to decide that I'll jump in even if that takes like 1 second to decide. And then I'm like I put all my energy and focus and attention in it in the here and now but I'm not gonna promise to others that it's all gonna be such a fun blast. And my energy doesnt give that fun message either. I'd have to be extra relaxed for that or something...idk. I'm more like, if someone's indecisive and doubting it all or just plain feeling so low and passive about their lives, then I will try to drag them out and give them energy and motivation to do things and especially to achieve things that they'd want to but where they need encouragement to actually do so. Maybe I'll also argue for it logically if thats needed too. Ive been told by someone like that once that it's like crack for them, that motivating help from me or whatever. Thats when I try to build up others, except Ive put too much energy into that for a while and I stopped trying so hard (except maybe not?? I still kinda do it with two people atm. This is a problem lol. Why do I even care to do this?) But yeah, I don't do it in that extra fun way you describe. I'm more focused on the goal than that (even if it's their goal and not mine when I'm helping others with this). And I think I said that in this thread already but I used to be like, if I saw someone as too weak and whiny I'd kick them really hard too (not literally in the ass but...yeah). Because their weakness irritated me real bad. So it was not necessarily fun for them at all lol.... it was still half about building them up but half me taking out the aggression on them. But I no longer do that btw.

So if I'm ESTP then I got way too many rough edges for anyone to describe me like that, flexible fun, nooo. You'd have to relax ME first before I'd think of doing any flexible fun like that, lol. Let alone think of inviting others to it, lol. That was another reason why I considered J stuff especially after the earlier typings of me in here.
 
#32 ·
... I'm gonna try to milk to death my cursory encounters with EST*. Don't take it as solid proof or as a destruction of stereotypes. Perhaps some EST* will pop up to offer their views. Feel free to skip to the video part if the written part drag too much.

- Basically the simplest way to distinguish J and P is how structured their distinction between work and play is :

E**J have a neat distinction between play and work : they work hard with complete focus, then they play hard. E**P have a tendency to mix both, to sift through activities so in the end (in the example of an academic situation) they end up doing their homework mixed with a million other things in between. That's the natural temptation for both, ofc in cases of dire necessity such as a deadline E**P can become overfocused to the point of workaholism. But otherwise, the E**P mix up activities, talk during classes, network during social setting, etc., etc.

ESTJ are definitely more controlling. It's enough for the problem to be that of a loved one for them to want to contribute to its resolution. And an unsolved problem for them is like a thorn in their side. ESTP seems to be ok letting other live as long as the other person let them do their thing, even if the other person is in an obvious quagmire, that's not their problem, just food for (awesome btw) jokes.

When operating on F, the difference is honor versus belonging. Basically Fi versus Fe. ESTJ are on the side of honor. They don't care if their anger manifestations are at odds with those of everyone else around them, as long as it's justified. An ESTJ is going say : "I'm angry as someone whose honorability and decency as a citizen has been questioned." Self-righteouness indignation sort of thing. Describes themselves as the loyal responsible family man. For ESTP the code of conduct or misconduct depends on the affiliated group. I've seen (albeit young and drunk) *STP group-drawing penises on some asleep person's face during a party - this would be an utterly dishonorable move for an ESTJ. Fe users are more prone to group assholery, lol ; Fi users to lonesome assholery even if no one else joins or agrees.

ESTJ can describe all the emotional nuances they've experienced in relation situations (divorce, etc.), the focus then is how they've experienced the situation and their inner emotional collapse, they talk less of the person-who-hurt-them behavior. ESTP describe what the other annoying person did at lenght, less about what they felt directly. ESTJ are like : "and so at this point I discovered I had was sensitive under my armour". "ESTP : "and then she said xxx ... And she did xxx ... Can you imagine ?"

The difference in the physical vibes they send is also real : ESTJs with their impatient, preoccupied, problem-solving look ; ESTP some of more wide-eyed on the look-out for opportunity but also more laid-back, but also to me it looks like they're ready to jump into action permanently, and they could be put teleported in the middle of an armed conflict and they're body would be ready to handle the situation without a problem. Source of utter puzzlement for me who doesn't have a Se bone in my body, lol.

Agressivity. ESTJ fight by giving orders and explaining their often considerable (and sometimes very nichey) knowledge. ESTP pretty much don't do that but I don't know how a pissed off Se-dom react, never saw this happen.

...

The videos.

An ESTJ from Joyce Meng channel :



ESTPs from ibidem :

 
#33 · (Edited)
... I'm gonna try to milk to death my cursory encounters with EST*. Don't take it as solid proof or as a destruction of stereotypes. Perhaps some EST* will pop up to offer their views. Feel free to skip to the video part if the written part drag too much.
Thanks, this was interesting to read. I'll comment a bit below (ofc).


- Basically the simplest way to distinguish J and P is how structured their distinction between work and play is :

E**J have a neat distinction between play and work : they work hard with complete focus, then they play hard. E**P have a tendency to mix both, to sift through activities so in the end (in the example of an academic situation) they end up doing their homework mixed with a million other things in between. That's the natural temptation for both, ofc in cases of dire necessity such as a deadline E**P can become overfocused to the point of workaholism. But otherwise, the E**P mix up activities, talk during classes, network during social setting, etc., etc.
Hm yeah that's interesting (sry repeating myself). So, no I don't think I can do the EP thing here, lol. But when I do that hard focus I always work to the deadline so it wouldn't be a very intelligent choice anyway. : p OK, when I do get myself to split up the work in parts because say, the overall amount did err, intimidate even me, so I split it up in parts over several days/weeks/however long it takes. Then I still focus constantly but it's not that hard focus or push... I dont need to push that much because the deadline pressure isn't there, and it's all almost boring but I have enough discipline to do it like that, from start to end. Whatever that means for typing. But I basically do it like that from start to end because I want to get it over with. So sometimes I still push a little more than I need to. But yes overall very stress-free and kinda boring to work that way. I think if I stopped to do other things then I'd not be able to get back to the task anytime soon so I just discipline myself this way. And yes in both cases that's me wanting to do well, high achievement, workaholism, blah blah. I am very ON/OFF, I either do it well or I don't do it at all. I did talk during classes though back in school ;)

But yeah I do discipline real well when working alone, or doing my training alone, including hard training. I'm gonna add this! bc why not, so training with others is actually counterproductive to my training lol, I'll overdo it immediately because, competition, and just the mood makes me go harder, unless I have a coach who's strict enough about the stuff. I just linked this with the talking in classes in school so I'm less disciplined when working with others...but I can do it still, it just takes extra discipline. And it's okay because discipline is something that's part of me, and I won't let go of it.

I did notice one thing, dunno if it means anything for typing. If I get really tired of working or reading or doing whatever task sequentially from start to end with all the discipline and everything, its so refreshing to switch it up, do a random part then do a random part there, not in order. But I try to not do that because I want to do well and want to make sure I did it all right. Even if that also feels like a pain in the ass, I learned to discipline myself like this as a kid. So its not too bad really, I just feel like I have a really well hidden ADHD sometimes. : p Actually kinda not so hidden lately lol Im not sure why I have it more now. Because Im in my 30s and ADHD is always supposed to start as a kid. o_O Maybe Im just really not motivated with the work Ive been doing recently but that on its own doesnt explain it.

Maybe the one thing that was like ADHD when I was a kid was that whenever I did finish my tasks in class, if they couldn't keep me busy with some other task then I'd get really hard to handle. I'd have a temper/throw a tantrum or I'd get at the other kids, pick on them, fight, idk. All that crap. Hm I never thought of this as ADHD... your description made me me link these things tho along with another post on here that I saw about ADHD. Lol I don't fucking know, but how else could I have ADHD symptoms coming out in my 30s? It's not too many symptoms but it definitely matches what I've read about ADHD, lol. (???)

I am only thinking about all this now because I never tried to do work like you described it, I was made to work in the disciplined way as a kid and then I just stuck to it plus I do enjoy it anyway in some ways. Plus what I said about how I think I'd take too long with the fun breaks between the work bits... I'd rather get it all over with in one go.


ESTJ are definitely more controlling. It's enough for the problem to be that of a loved one for them to want to contribute to its resolution. And an unsolved problem for them is like a thorn in their side. ESTP seems to be ok letting other live as long as the other person let them do their thing, even if the other person is in an obvious quagmire, that's not their problem, just food for (awesome btw) jokes.
OK here I relate to the ESTJ 1000% if I care about someone and I got that involved in their issue. Some people really know anyway how to involve me in it lol.... Then its a thorn and I want to act to get it solved, yes yes. But tbh Im like this only for major problems, not small problems, then its not a thorn in my side or whatever. Like I see it as my "duty" to be there for people in real serious trouble. Even people that I just sorta care about, I dont have to be deeply attached or anything like that. Only people though who I've known for long enough. And yes, quagmire, yeah, if its deep enough and pulling them down enough.

Then yes as soon as Im clear about their goal, I get controlling like I want to outright direct them in a definite direction and push for that direction. Tho I try to be careful not to look like it too much, either, bc I know people don't necessarily like that. Depends on the person but a lot of people don't. (My dream is tho, me not having to be so careful...lol) I pretend that Im just like, listening, get more information, maneuver to figure out if they like my idea for a direction and so on. If they dont, then Ill switch to another idea or direction. So when I said I get controlling what I meant is I get inflexible as fuck and make decisions for action too fast but I try to relax it so I can pick up more information if I sense that it would help and generally I try to let the person make their own decisions. (Thats not part of the dream... I do need you to be able to make your own important decisions to be able to respect you. In small and everyday things I don't mind making the decisions myself if I need to.)

So what it looks like is I make suggestions for action that has that direction I already got invested in, and push a little each time unless well they don't want to be pushed, then I back off and go back to careful maneuver mode (where I'm also kinda really impatient but try to hide it). If they get stupid though about some really imo obvious thing and its pointless to waste any more time and it just hurts me to listen to their vacillating any longer, then I intentionally drop the patience and I do the ass-kick rather than being controlling about some direction. Like heres the simple thing to do, go DO it. And Ill tell them in a way that they definitely hear it.

Also, that direction that I get inflexible about because I invest in it fast and want to get to action. I change it quickly if I get more information. It's like my planning except I don't like to change it if I got to believe in it too much, lol, but I will change it anyway. I called it controlling because if I didn't have to pretend, Id just make them do it but I understand that I could've got the wrong idea so that's why I make myself more careful in behaviour, lol. I maybe look enthusiastic or pushy when suggesting the stuff but I switch if needed. Where it IS inflexible is that if I don't have enough info then I can't make a new decision and switch and then I get too pushy and tunnel visioned.

And for everyday stuff no....Im more patient and relaxed. I had friends before who would constantly talk about their problems to me, all everyday problems or whatever, I just let them vent. If they figured out something while venting to me, cool. Or if they asked a question, I would answer. Some of these friends would ask a MILLION questions daily and I would just answer. And I wasnt into the idea of taking over or control them or the direction or any of that. The same for my brother, if he vents like that, I will again just let him be. Same for romantic relationships.

Oh the thorn in my side. I thought about it again and it's like, it's due to my impatience. Like I really want to do something about the problem but may have to hold back and play patient. Add to that my low frustration threshold and uh huh. (But I manage that tension because I can't be a burden to someone who's already having major problems.)

And all that's me anyway a lot. When it comes to some problem where I can't solve it all immediately but it's more complex and shit. That's why I described all this.

I wouldn't make any joke out of the real trouble.... If someone made a joke about me like that I'd be pretty royally pissed myself so I don't try to make jokes like that either.


When operating on F, the difference is honor versus belonging. Basically Fi versus Fe. ESTJ are on the side of honor. They don't care if their anger manifestations are at odds with those of everyone else around them, as long as it's justified. An ESTJ is going say : "I'm angry as someone whose honorability and decency as a citizen has been questioned." Self-righteouness indignation sort of thing. Describes themselves as the loyal responsible family man. For ESTP the code of conduct or misconduct depends on the affiliated group. I've seen (albeit young and drunk) *STP group-drawing penises on some asleep person's face during a party - this would be an utterly dishonorable move for an ESTJ. Fe users are more prone to group assholery, lol ; Fi users to lonesome assholery even if no one else joins or agrees.
LOL. That sounds like a good joke. But the group would have to be really right for it too, like, Im def not going to try and do that on my own. The mood has got to be real strong and good for it. And then I dont see it as dishonorable, if its all just in "good fun". It has to be obvious tho that its just that...not hostile or anything...so thats how I imagined the situation.

I get angry over unfairness and bullshit, not about my decency or whatever. Loyal responsible family man made me fall asleep while reading that, lol.


ESTJ can describe all the emotional nuances they've experienced in relation situations (divorce, etc.), the focus then is how they've experienced the situation and their inner emotional collapse, they talk less of the person-who-hurt-them behavior. ESTP describe what the other annoying person did at lenght, less about what they felt directly. ESTJ are like : "and so at this point I discovered I had was sensitive under my armour". "ESTP : "and then she said xxx ... And she did xxx ... Can you imagine ?"
I'm the ESTP version here, there's no way I'd ever talk like the ESTJ. That just made me puke, lol.

And Im really bad at emotional nuances tbh. So yeah I just talk about what the other person did and if Im in the mood enough then I also add cynical comments about their manipulativeness or bad intents and stuff. I really enjoy that so I dont have to feel nice let alone try and reconcile about bullshit.


The difference in the physical vibes they send is also real : ESTJs with their impatient, preoccupied, problem-solving look ; ESTP some of more wide-eyed on the look-out for opportunity but also more laid-back, but also to me it looks like they're ready to jump into action permanently, and they could be put teleported in the middle of an armed conflict and they're body would be ready to handle the situation without a problem. Source of utter puzzlement for me who doesn't have a Se bone in my body, lol.
Hm I'm sometimes impatient, sometimes wide-eyed. Idk. I'm problem solving on the inside but actually looking like it?


Agressivity. ESTJ fight by giving orders and explaining their often considerable (and sometimes very nichey) knowledge. ESTP pretty much don't do that but I don't know how a pissed off Se-dom react, never saw this happen.
Lol, giving orders or explaining at length isn't a fight. Interesting tho.


The videos.

An ESTJ from Joyce Meng channel :

ESTPs from ibidem :
The girl in the middle at the bottom, Im aloof like that but when she gets not-aloof, but like, more emotional, I dont have that, lol. So I half relate, half dont. Also I think shes sorta softer than me, less rough edges but I can be like this softer too, it depends. Usually not, though. And it's really really rare for me to look that "emotional" like that video.

The ESTJ talked about learning from crashing and burning. I wish. Lol. NO I DON'T EVER LEARN FROM IT!! : p

I also don't have opinions on literally everything but I do like to have opinions and voice them, just randomly here and there. I get real opinionated tho mainly to seek some fight, I think...

Also. I care about my looks unlike that ESTJ. The ESTP girl cares more, I liked that.
 
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