[CitizenErased]

I really don't know what to do with my sister any more. She's 18 and never leaves the house, has no friends any more because she's so anxious to be around people. She also refuses to get a job, lives off my parents money which means that I (i'm 15 years old) get thrown aside pretty much.

She manipulates me and refuses to give into arguments even though i've always been the more rational, outgoing, mature of us and i'll ask her why she's snapping at me and she'll never say. She actually criticises my individualism (i'm a type 4 enneagram so i don't take that with a pinch of salt) my extroverted friends + my strife to enjoy my life and be completely free from rules, thinks she's above me and can control my life, she can be so cruel that i'm reduced to tears and leave me speechless and depressed. Then ten minutes later she'll be happy and nice again which is frustrating if she hurt somebodies feelings.

What can I say i'm an infp who see's good in everyone so i've had long conversations with her about her feelings and done everything possible to help her but she just doesn't care about what I say any more. I'm scared that she'll waste her life away like my INFJ and ISFJ parents (who I may add i have felt totally isolated from my whole life because I always get criticised for not being organised and being spontaneous) she'll be obsessive over something to the point were it starts to annoy everyone then suddenly not care any more if somebody critisises her and give them a guilt trip.

She's also suffered from anxiety which adds to the chaos. I really need some advice because she couldn't be any more different to how I thought infj's were right now i can't figure her out and infp's and infj's are meant to be very similar.

 

[vocalist]

Sorry you're having to witness the INF?J's ugly side first-hand...That said, there might be more going on here than just personalitiy...You say your sister has anxiety issues...Is she being treated? Also, has she been evaluated for possible depression and/or bipolar disorder?

I ask about the bipolar thing, because I had a friend in high school who was bipolar and your description of your sister sounds a little like her. Like this:

she can be so cruel that i'm reduced to tears and leave me speechless and depressed. Then ten minutes later she'll be happy and nice again which is frustrating if she hurt somebodies feelings.

 

[water]

First, we can not judge an entire personality type from the actions of one.

Two, were exactly are your parents in this mess?

Lastly, we cannot "change" anyone but ourselves. (Setting a healthy example, our reactions, etc.)

Coping with the mess... this is your sister's mess. Perhaps, your job in this is to "not play the game" and to "do your own thing." --- Nothing will stop issues faster then when we show "it does not and will not" effect us anymore. :wink:

* Choose to not participate - walk away, leave the room, don't play the game.

 

[CitizenErased]

First, we can not judge an entire personality type from the actions of one.

Two, were exactly are your parents in this mess?

Lastly, we cannot "change" anyone but ourselves. (Setting a healthy example, our reactions, etc.)

Coping with the mess... this is your sister's mess. Perhaps, your job in this is to "not play the game" and to "do your own thing." --- Nothing will stop issues faster then when we show "it does not and will not" effect us anymore. :wink:

* Choose to not participate - walk away, leave the room, don't play the game.

well i know her type since she tested twice as an infj if thats what you mean.
my parents are in the same position as me really they want to help her but they always seem angry and insulting

sorry about posting this thread, i was just frustrated and confused earlier and i was in a pretty crazy mood from other stuff yesterday. I felt like I couldn't cope with it all any more and i'll try what you said :happy: thankyou

& i love healthy infj's by the way guys so don't think i'm hating on you all

 

[CuritadeRana]

well i know her type since she tested twice as an infj if thats what you mean.
my parents are in the same position as me really they want to help her but they always seem angry and insulting

sorry about posting this thread, i was just frustrated and confused earlier and i was in a pretty crazy mood from other stuff yesterday. I felt like I couldn't cope with it all any more and i'll try what you said :happy: thankyou

& i love healthy infj's by the way guys so don't think i'm hating on you all

Well I don't know anyone who responds well to that....perhaps you all need family counseling. INFJ's in particular are sensitive to what is going on in their home environment. This will also be a good opportunity for everyone in the house to have a chance to express what changes could be made that would make the family dynamic healthier for everyone.

 

[Linus]

I'd agree with water...

Does she go to college? I don't think never going out, not having friends is a sign of having any problem. She is concentrating on something.

This post kind of amuses me because I'm in the same situation, except I'm the infj and my sister is ENFP. There is no drama however, but people can make a drama out of nothing by trying to fix other people's problems, trying to involve themselves into another person's life. You can't do it because your values and experiences are different from hers. Only she knows.
I definitely get thought of as 'never doing anything' also but it really just looks that way. I would get bored if I didn't do anything. I am always trying to fix my problems.

The best thing all of you can do is give her space and trust that she will get out of it. Maybe something serious happened to her that she doesn't feel comfortable telling anyone. If her parents get angry with her, then it's more likely she will close herself even more. So... cut her some slack and maybe calm her parents down (I don't know what personality type your parents are). Otherwise you will just build up more pressure for her and she may never be able to help herself.

 

[Ethanol]

I use to have a really serious social anxiety as a teen. I remember staying in the house all month (not even stepping outside to pick up the mail), but I don't remember taking it out on my siblings at all. At that period in my life I had been picked on by some classmates at school and subsequently developed a serious fear of meeting new people. I also had a really bad self image, I literally thought I was dirt.

I can't spot what's going on with your INFJ sister, but she's definitely going through something. I don't think she's handling it in a mature way though =/ By the time I was ready to go to college I had matured alot, built my self esteem, and eventually became a social butterfly.

My suggestion would be to work on yourself in reaching your goals, and invite her along whenever possible. Perhaps when she sees you living a peaceful life and that you're going somewhere (in terms of a life goal), it may motivate her to move past it providing that you ignore or look past the arguments but always provide a helping hand.

I'm thinking back to my teens, and thinking about what somebody could have done to help me with my anxiety... and I honestly don't know what anybody could have done? It was something I really had to work with myself and at my own pace to overcome...

I believe I overcame it because there was something I knew I could do well (drawing). My passion for the arts and my desire to improve my situation is what really moved me out of that period. It was like a stepping stone, and it help me take that first step into becoming who I am. For me, I always had a desire to be happy/comfortable with myself even in the worst times.

I think in the end, she'll be okay. I generally don't think INFJs are the type to lay down and give up.

Edit: I suggest trying to introduce her to new hobbies or interests, and invite her along. Maybe try slipping clippings of places you would like to go with her, like say a local restaurant menu under the door and write notes like "Wanna have lunch together?". Just keep trying to be a positive experience and part of her life even if she fights you on it. I wouldn't reccomend pressuring her to do anything, but try keeping an open door in your life (and your social life) to include her.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to include things in my post. From personal experience, if she's anxious to be around people, there is no way she is going to get a job... do you know how many people you have to deal with at a job? ESPECIALLY a retail job. I don't think it's because she doesn't want a job, she's extremely anxious around people.... I've worked retail before, and customers can be totally crazy. You're going to have to work on her anxiety around people BEFORE ever suggesting she gets a job. Please don't criticize her, that's just going to make her build a wall.

Like I said, you have to be a positive experience in her life. So if she fights or argue with you, just leave it be. Don't reciprocate her anger, even if you have to walk away. Just leave the room, go outside, take a walk.. cool down... then go back and invite her to be a part of your life.

 

[vel]

I would advise that you take her to talk to a psychologist. It sounds like your sister is a very strong F struggling with applying critical ability to her own world view and her own person and the overall weirdness that goes on in our INFJ minds. In addition to this, she is very isolated from the outside world so she is getting very little outside input and becoming more and more detached from reality. Only outside input she is getting is from you and your parents and it sounds like neither 3 of you are able to help her. A counselor can provide more of this outside input and teach her more about objective thinking stuff she is lacking. Basically she has very high inner, subjective self-awareness. Now she needs to develop better outside, objective self-awareness.

She needs to get out more, but problem is that until she develops more confidence in herself, getting out will seem too painful and too meaningless to her. It is a bit of a Catch 22 problem here. That criticism that she showers you with sometimes, she applies it within to herself. Inside she is constantly berating herself and ruminating about every single little action. So trick is to hit at her incorrect philosophical convictions and perceptions of herself and reality around her. Persuade her that her mind is playing tricks on her. Show her examples that what she thinks inside does not correspond to how reality is outside. Encourage her to study psychology more for herself so that she sees on example of others how people's inner perception of the world can be so skewed and distorted by workings of our inner mind that they can fall out of touch from reality and live completely inside their own distorted dreams and perceptions. May be she will then understand that same thing is happening to her.

Not all counselors are good ones. She might need to "shop around" so to say for the one that will understand her and understand what is best advice to give her. She might be too shy talking to a shrink on the basis that the shrink will judge her. Her mind will once again focus on critical abilities of other people. In this case you will have to refocus her thinking to pay attention to the positive qualities of psychologist, that they have chosen this career to help other people. That they are not there to judge her, but to help her. This is why they spend 5-6 years doing their PhD in psychology and getting all this training, not so that they can sit there and criticize people for hours. And also tell her that a psychologist has virtually no power over her - that if she doesn't like it she can quit any time and go see another one. But that she needs to listen to them because they can provide her with a point of view that she never considered before.

Typical INFJ method of coping with stuff is shifting our inner perspective on things. We are not very good at changing and controlling our surroundings to fit our needs. This is why I said that it is best to first hit at her inner beliefs, and then couple it with more getting out, rather than force her to go out first. Without solid inner philosophical base, all getting out will do is persuade her that she was right hiding form the world in the first place. But once a more positive world view is developed as foundation then this serves as a launching pad for the INFJ to do something with the world outside.

I think she will also benefit from doing some reading in psychology herself, especially example of people with the same kind of problems. This can give more confidence to her to see that there are many other people out there dealing with anxiety, perfectionism, negative thoughts and so on, that she is not alone. You should show her this forum later as well.

Another thing that helped me gain self-confidence was a relationship with an ENTP, so if you can find her some ENxP girlfriends do so ENTPs are interesting to INFJs and have many of the qualities that we lack. INFJs tend to project qualities of other people onto ourselves and mirror their behavior. By projecting qualities of ENTP onto herself INFJ's weak points in personality become reinforced. By often being around people who shine with confidence and optimism the INFJ will adjust on the inside to be more confident and positive as well. More developed ENTPs that have solid Fe will also shower people who are close to them with lots of compliments. This works wonders on self-esteem of an insecure INFJ. ENFPs can have effect as well. ENTPs are slightly better for INFJ development as a person, because their T can help INFJ better develop that critical thinking ability that will give her even more self-confidence. Basically ENTP would help INFJ develop her tertiary function, Ti, and thus become more balanced as a person. But it takes an ENTP with well developed tertiary function, Fe, as well as an ENTP lacking in Fe will instead clash with INFJ and they will grow to despise one another. This is typically much less of a problem with ENFPs.

What can I say i'm an infp who see's good in everyone so i've had long conversations with her about her feelings and done everything possible to help her but she just doesn't care about what I say any more.

There can be some miscommunication between N-dominant and Fi/Ti-dominant people. She probably doesn't listen because she feels she just cannot understand things from your point of view. It is very difficult to understand the world through eyes of a Fi bearer. Fi is one of our shadow function and is difficult to access. It would be best for her to talk to another intuition dominant person who is ahead of her in understanding of life so to say.

 

[curious0610]

She is doing the same thing to herself. Like vel mentioned -- what you experience is experienced tenfold internally. Imagine how awful that would be. I'm not excusing her actions, but just explaining that when someone is internally dealing with those things, what you see or experience is just an iceburg.

Is your sister going to college anytime soon (since she's 18)? If not, I'd encourage her to sign up for classes at a nearby CC or university. INFJs act that way when they are extremely frustrated or traumatized by something. Is there something that has happened in the last few years that you know about or maybe think she is struggling with? I don't know about a psychologist to be honest, because like vel mentioned INFJs cope by shifting our inner perspective on things and probing ourselves very deeply. I went through some hard times, and I realized I inadvertently lashed out at my loved ones. I needed to be left alone. I didn't want to, but I needed to be alone and have a lot of time to sort out my thoughts.

I'm just biased against psychologists (though I'm not saying they are bad) - I just think they provide very temporary solutions that last maybe a few years. The only thing that bothers me is that psychologists usually try to impose their beliefs or kind of influence you to shift your inner self in what they think is the best way. However, I think for INFJs, the best, permanent solution is to find the inner balance ourselves.

Anyway, I understand your frustration. I relate completely. At the same time, your sister is probably deeply resenting herself for acting the way she is (if she's anything like me). I don't know your sister, so I can't come up with any specific solutions, but I can say with almost-near-confidence she's going through something difficult right now. A dose of discipline helps for me. I don't know how to explain, but I realize that when I'm going through anxious times or overall my life isn't going right, I get extremely disciplined - strict waking up schedules, strict exercise schedules, eating very healthy at the same time. I think someone above mentioned hobbies - I think that's okay, but I heavily encourage you to start up a sport/action-oriented hobby with her (not art/music/writing/thinking/motionless stuff). I found that action-oriented hobbies work best, because it helps me get out of my bad mindset, and gets me oriented towards being disciplined physically, emotionally, mentally. It helps me keep in touch with the real world, have connections with people in a non-pressure-like way. Go for a sport like racquetball or yoga or swimming or walking/jogging, something that can be learned and releatively improved/developed through practice. (Some other sports are more difficult, and I found that if I don't have the knack to begin with, it's hard for me to develop, which gets me more frustrated).

For now.. one: let her be, give her space, walk away from any potential conflict/war zones. This is hard for "F" types since emotion stirs emotion in ourselves. Just defer to her and say "yeah." or something neutral. Trust me, when an INFJ says or does something that causes another person to be upset, they regret that they triggered bad feelings. Be the bigger person, she doesn't mean what she say right now. And two: make her move, move, move it , moveit , move it! when people are physically helathy, it helps them be more emotionally and mentally healthy

 

[Miasmatic Domino]

-pats CitizenErased's back-

I agree with everyone else. It would be nice if you consulted a family psychologist and the problem could be sorted out in a way :happy:.
But right now, it would be nice to give you and your sister some space. I agree that there might be something in her mind that she just wants to sort out on her own. Assuming from your perspective that your sister might be an INFJ, when we are experiencing problems, we somehow shut the ones we love out of our problems without really telling them anything and that's when the conflict starts to happen.

Right now, I suggest that you do your own thing like what water suggested; hang out with friends and go to Starbucks tongue, bring your parents to dinner or just do daily schoolwork. Preoccupying yourself with some things to do won't do any harm, I hope :wink:.

 

[curious0610]

And I want to add some other things:
I think pursuing other hobbies, like drawing, is a really good thing. I hope I didn't come off as dismissing it or anything. I engage in drawing, art, music on a regular basis. Those are things I love doing and things that always make me feel better. However, when I reached rock bottom and was going through really difficult times, I was so conflicted internally that I couldn't even enjoy those things. I was pretty much apathetic to those hobbies. It was only after I got involved with some light sports, that I started becoming more balanced and disciplined, improving my mindset, getting back into physical shape while getting back into emotional/mental shape. After activities helped me get going, art/music/reading really became enjoyable activities. I think it's something about being able to see the gradual improvements and impact on our bodies - art and music have tangible qualities, but it's really hard to measure your improvements. I mean you can say "I shaded this drawing better... I mastered drawing portraits.. I mastered this concerto," but like most artists/musicians know, even mastering one picture or one page of a song can take days, months, years. This could translate to even more frustration. On the other hand, I think with sports, you can see your incremental growth every time, which is encouraging. You feel physically toned, kinda sore the next day, and the next time, you feel a little more "into it," so that the improvements and development are more "real" in the sense that they are visible and noticeable by you in the near future (not something that takes years to hone).

And for psychologists, I don't mean to dismiss them either. I've learned a lot from psychology classes, textbooks from people who spent their lifetimes and careers doing this kind of stuff. I'm only hesitant, because for someone who is not fully matured/fully an adult, it can be almost harmful (just in my opinion) to have someone with so much control/influence on how you think. It can be for the better, and the conclusions that I reach may be even the same about what the psychologists say, but for me, the process of realizing that goal is what makes me, me. I'm 22 now, and I've sorted out my thoughts on a lot, so now I wouldn't have a problem with seeing a psychologist if I wanted to talk about my stress or occasional anxiety. But this is because I am mature/wiser (than when I was younger) to take everything with a grain of salt and I have more control over my thoughts and keep my reservations.

 

[Razare]

Hi Citizen!

You're a 15 year old INFP. Most of the INFP's I've known feel like someone is muzzling them, preventing them from expressing themselves. Do NOT feel this way. Express yourself, even if that means doing it in strange ways like art or photography.

No one is silencing you, no one is saying you must shut up. Don't keep quiet about your feelings, it'll only cause you angst in the long run. Expressing yourself opens you to rejection, criticism, hurt, and pain, but that's life. To be happy, you just have to learn to express yourself, and one day find people who accept you for who you are.

If your sister is making you feel like crap, tell her so. If you think she's being an idiot, tell her that too. She'll probably get twice as worse, but if no one else is telling her these things, maybe she needs to hear it.

 

[Razare]

Oh and INFJ's can get delusional at that age. I know that I was.

She'll get past it one day. We get past it because when our Ni is wrong about how the world is and about who we are, it eventually splats against a big brick wall. Once we hit that wall, everything we thought was our life collapses, and we have to rebuild our Ni into something new. This can change us in tremendous ways.

She's young, she'll live, learn, and grow as a person.

 

[water]

well i know her type since she tested twice as an infj if thats what you mean.
my parents are in the same position as me really they want to help her but they always seem angry and insulting

sorry about posting this thread, i was just frustrated and confused earlier and i was in a pretty crazy mood from other stuff yesterday. I felt like I couldn't cope with it all any more and i'll try what you said :happy: thankyou

& i love healthy infj's by the way guys so don't think i'm hating on you all

You never have to say your sorry for telling your own truth, it was very honest from your point of view. :wink:

About the temperament, (her being an INFJ) it does not excuse her, or anyone's bad behavior. I am sure that you understand the difference.

With your self and your parents, running the race with any illness... continues it because it gives it purpose and a reason to continue. (Of course, there are safety limits to all things. But, you get the idea.) It is like paying attention to a child's temper tamtrums... and then, wondering why they continue.

You are a wonderful, bright person --- Lead by example.

 

[MysteriousMoon]

Wow this sounds like my mom.