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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Finding this vid series by carolyn zakowski really useful and interesting. There's a new vid up about the dynamic between four and nine and how they can "spin out" and go to a bad place with each other. Can't tell you how many times I've seen this dynamic at play, including in a long-term relationship I was in. Oh my, fours and nines...

 

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The most crucial difference between Type 4 and 9 is their conflict coping strategy. 4 belongs the to the 'assertive' triad (4, 6 ,8) that voices the truth of the situation, while 9 belongs to the 'positive' triad (2, 7, 9); 9s tend to sweep problems under the rug, thus there is more of an apathetic, indifferent, "what problem?" kind of denial. This painful for the 4 who prefers to fight about the problem with their partner, rather than to be ignored. Being ignored triggers 4's fear of being emotionally cut-off. If both types are not self-aware, then when the 4 becomes melodramatic, the 9 becomes even more resistant and stubborn (triggering a vicious cycle).
 

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@Baerlieber

That was intensely interesting and fascinating! Thanks for sharing!

I don't know why, but I had not heard "Type 9 Rage" tossed around much, but it's a concept I'm becoming more familiar with - - so it was intriguing to hear it discussed in this video clip!

I'll have to check out some of her other videos; I thought she did a really good job.

One thing I can never seem to shake (and this is not really a comment towards you; just a general musing into the big abyss of the forums), is how much I relate to Type 4 whenever I hear them, and their experience, discussed in plain terms. I feel like I have a hard time wrapping my head around the Type 4 descriptions; & I think many people on the forums would find me laughable as a Type 4 - - but for some reason I relate so, so, much!
Maybe it's just in my Tritype?
Who knows ...
 
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Wow - that was interesting. It seems "Nine rage" was what led me to move out (two eruptions in the span of a week, followed by the most dramatic "assertion" I've ever made - holy crap).

@o0india0o: I'm much like you regarding seeing yourself in descriptions of the Four experience. I keep thinking it's my fix, and maybe it is. :3
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
@Baerlieber

That was intensely interesting and fascinating! Thanks for sharing!

I don't know why, but I had not heard "Type 9 Rage" tossed around much, but it's a concept I'm becoming more familiar with - - so it was intriguing to hear it discussed in this video clip!

I'll have to check out some of her other videos; I thought she did a really good job.

One thing I can never seem to shake (and this is not really a comment towards you; just a general musing into the big abyss of the forums), is how much I relate to Type 4 whenever I hear them, and their experience, discussed in plain terms. I feel like I have a hard time wrapping my head around the Type 4 descriptions; & I think many people on the forums would find me laughable as a Type 4 - - but for some reason I relate so, so, much!
Maybe it's just in my Tritype?
Who knows ...
You're a seven, yes? (According to your profile..) I think fours and sevens have a ton in common, personally, and I know several who could very easily mistype as the other. The thing about them both is how extreme they can be emotionally and how much they can seem like they're performing...usually it is the four going down into the darkness and the seven trying to maintain the happiness, but fours can get really manic and seek out "peak experiences" and sevens can get really depressed and thrown into darkness easily, precisely because they're trying to avoid it. I think. Also, they can get along really well, especially in a party atmosphere. For example, I know a four ENFP who could very, very easily be mistyped as a seven simply because she is so "intense" and loves to party and seek out extreme experiences (both happy and dark) and is very performative. But fundamentally her "fear" and "motivation" and all that, are of a four. Likewise, I know a seven who is really prone to depression and mania and when depressed can go down extremely deep and get suicidal (think Robin Williams.)

At the end of the day, we have all types in us, and the point of the enneagram is to move beyond type (in my opinion.) If you relate to four, maybe that means it would be really interesting/useful for you to explore that part of yourself.

Also, if a person really relates to more than one type, I find it useful to go back and read about the motivations and fears of each type, as well as what each type looks like when they're healthy vs. unhealthy. That can give some clarity.
 

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I think fours and sevens have a ton in common, personally, and I know several who could very easily mistype as the other. The thing about them both is how extreme they can be emotionally and how much they can seem like they're performing...usually it is the four going down into the darkness and the seven trying to maintain the happiness, but fours can get really manic and seek out "peak experiences" and sevens can get really depressed and thrown into darkness easily, precisely because they're trying to avoid it. I think. Also, they can get along really well, especially in a party atmosphere.
They have a similar intuitive, creative style processing of information, dreamy idealism, inferiority, need for stimulation, however their outlook to life and coping mechanisms are very different. If Enneagram type 4 is most attuned to being 'dark' 'deep' 'nostalgic' then type 7 is attuned to being 'light' 'positive' and 'future-oriented'. 7s share the same conflict coping style as 9s, however they have the tendency to gloss over negative truths using clever maneuvers, positive reframing, or changing subjects (quicker on their feet). 7s can clash with 4's melodramatic disposition, while 4s can clash with 7's difficulty to face negative, heavy topics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
They have a similar intuitive, creative style processing of information, dreamy idealism, inferiority, need for stimulation, however their outlook to life and coping mechanisms are very different. If Enneagram type 4 is most attuned to being 'dark' 'deep' 'nostalgic' then type 7 is attuned to being 'light' 'positive' and 'future-oriented'. 7s share the same conflict coping style as 9s, however they have the tendency to gloss over negative truths using clever maneuvers, positive reframing, or changing subjects (quicker on their feet). 7s can clash with 4's melodramatic disposition, while 4s can clash with 7's difficulty to face negative, heavy topics.
Exactly. There are also many ways in which sevens and fours are different, so if people are confused about their type, they should think about that, too. I have a dear friend who is a four who cannot stand being around a certain seven she knows because she doesn't understand why he is always talking about "fluffy" or insubstantial topics, or why he always just wants to plan and have fun when other things needs to be dealt with. Basically she feels like he is shallow. I wouldn't go so far as to use an insulting word, but I do know a few sevens who seem to want to look on the bright side to the point where they can come across as escapists. Not surprisingly, perhaps, I know some sevens and nines who get along really well because of this :)
 

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They have a similar intuitive, creative style processing of information, dreamy idealism, inferiority, need for stimulation, however their outlook to life and coping mechanisms are very different. If Enneagram type 4 is most attuned to being 'dark' 'deep' 'nostalgic' then type 7 is attuned to being 'light' 'positive' and 'future-oriented'. 7s share the same conflict coping style as 9s, however they have the tendency to gloss over negative truths using clever maneuvers, positive reframing, or changing subjects (quicker on their feet). 7s can clash with 4's melodramatic disposition, while 4s can clash with 7's difficulty to face negative, heavy topics.
See, I relate to everything about type 7's, sans the depressive melancholy. I guess I don't really understand why dark and gloomy is the Type 4's defining feature?
Can't there be happy Type 4's? Why is so much of their core personality swirled around, sadness and negativity?

I relate to the creativity, individuality, expression of emotions (I'm quite colorful with my emotional expression - - of all emotions;; my reaction is quite immediate), as well as interest in exploring emotions (though, with the more negative emotions, there has to be a more practical reason for diving into their depths, otherwise: why risk getting tangled in the dark, twisty, kelp beds?).

@Baerlieber (<<thought I'd tag you as well;; in case you had some input) :smile-new:
 

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See, I relate to everything about type 7's, sans the depressive melancholy. I guess I don't really understand why dark and gloomy is the Type 4's defining feature?
Can't there be happy Type 4's? Why is so much of their core personality swirled around, sadness and negativity?
It's not that 4's CAN'T be happy, as I mentioned, 4s are attuned to darkness; it's as if their 'default behavior' is to be 'deep and introspective'. Whereas 2 and 3 look outwardly to find value, 4 look within to find value, meaning, and beauty. In the more advanced areas of the Enneagram, 4 and 5 is associated with the 'Nadir' AKA the void of the Enneagram circle. Both types are curious about the aspects of life which is darker, mysterious, unknown, because this is where beauty is discovered.
 

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It's not that 4's CAN'T be happy, as I mentioned, 4s are attuned to darkness; it's as if their 'default behavior' is to be 'deep and introspective'. Whereas 2 and 3 look outwardly to find value, 4 look within to find value, meaning, and beauty. In the more advanced areas of the Enneagram, 4 and 5 is associated with the 'Nadir' AKA the void of the Enneagram circle. Both types are curious about the aspects of life which is darker, mysterious, unknown, because this is where beauty is discovered.
:carrot:

Wish I could give you a super thanks instead of just a regular thanks.
 

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It's not that 4's CAN'T be happy, as I mentioned, 4s are attuned to darkness; it's as if their 'default behavior' is to be 'deep and introspective'. Whereas 2 and 3 look outwardly to find value, 4 look within to find value, meaning, and beauty. In the more advanced areas of the Enneagram, 4 and 5 is associated with the 'Nadir' AKA the void of the Enneagram circle. Both types are curious about the aspects of life which is darker, mysterious, unknown, because this is where beauty is discovered.
Well, I am "deep and introspective";; but in all your comics, you depicted Type 4's crying (a lot).
But I'm not attracted to the dark, mysterious things in life.

So, I guess to me, it still seems unclear.
 
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