[InvisibleJim]

Today myself and others were reflecting on the incredible awesome Lord of Russia that is Vladimir Putin.

Observe!

A man clearly knowing what to do in every situation...

Anyway, as you can see I am losing the point of the thread.

The real question is, mighty NT's of PersonalityCafe, what is Vlad's MBTI type?

Does his ability to control Russia with an iron fist show his ENTJness?
Does his strategic planning and crass demeanor indicate a closet INTJ?
Does his judo chopping and hunting expeditions prefer the good fun cogeniality of an ENTP?
Does his incredible attention to detail and perfect tie wearing capabilitie show the smarts of an INTP?

You decide; here and now, on behalf of the man with the iron fist in Moscow.

 

[EvanR]

I think he is an INTJ, I don't believe that Judo points towards any particular NT.

When I think of an ENTJ politician I think of Barrack Obama or FDR.

 

[Sily]

ISTJ the duty fulfiller.

 

[tooboku]

I would love to see how a chess match between Vladmir Putin and Stephen Harper plays out.

 

[dude10000]

ISTP.

That's a guess based on inspiration; I know nothing about the guy.

 

[Diphenhydramine]

I think he is an INTJ, I don't believe that Judo points towards any particular NT.

When I think of an ENTJ politician I think of Barrack Obama or FDR.

Obama is surely ENFJ, like Reagan and Blair.

I think he's an ENTJ (if he's an NT, that is-- he's probably a sensor, though...). Gordon Brown is an INTJ; he has no charisma, can't connect with ordinary people etc, whereas Putin is clearly an extrovert.

 

[Zic]

I'd say he's a sensor... most likely ISTJ /ESTJ perhaps. You know, calm and such. If he were an NT, then it'd be INTJ /ENTJ.. I don't see him as too extroverted,though.

 

[Antithesis]

Whatever type he is, I would so sex him - he is just the most epic slab of manliness... mmmm.....

I'm offended by the notion I could have the same type as that fool Brown. God I hated him.

 

[MensSuperMateriam]

I'll clearly discard NTP's. His personality shows, in my opinion, a lot of Te. No NTP will rule over "his" country in that uber controlling way. A NTP style will be more changing concrete aspects of the system (or the whole system) in order to it could work better "by itself".

I'm not completely sure about E/I, but I'll vote for ENTJ. He seems to like being in the first line instead managing from the shadows. A lot of charisma, as @Diphenhydramine pointed, seems to agree with this.

 

[Merov]

Surely you will all face capital punishment for such gestures.
Vladimir Putin does not smile on this thread.

:mellow:

 

[Hemoglobin]

Whatever type he is, I would so sex him - he is just the most epic slab of manliness... mmmm.....

This this this this!!!

Maybe it's an INTJ female thing? :laughing:

And just for good measure I call post this (I already posted it in the "eye candy thread":

 

[Persephone]

I can see him as INTJ, but then everything about him rubs me the wrong way. I do not like him.

 

[dragulagu]

He's clearly an INTJ with a developed E, that is why people see him as an ENTJ. While he is charismatic, he uses a more harsher and tactical approach in his decisions and clearly uses his Ni/Te to process information.

A perfect example is the lobbying fragment in this link:

youtube.com/watch?v=lJILjbIoc98 (pardon for not being able to post a proper link due to my new status)

starting from 46:00 where he's absorbing the information of the oil industrial Khodorkovsky; composing his answer and firing back at him and where the weakest point of an INTJ , his Sensor is also shown during his comeback. Whereas he's taking on a nonchalant, almost arrogant position to his adversary with a very undiplomatic (which an ENTJ would much less likely do) but honest answer but lacking the proper facts to back it up (which is unnatural for a sensor).

 

[TheBoss]

I admire that guy, too. And yeah, he is a male worth having in one's bed. =]

Does his ability to control Russia with an iron fist show his ENTJness?
Does his strategic planning and crass demeanor indicate a closet INTJ?
Does his judo chopping and hunting expeditions prefer the good fun cogeniality of an ENTP?
Does his incredible attention to detail and perfect tie wearing capabilitie show the smarts of an INTP?

- Iron fist can be ESTJ too.
- Strategic planning is what ENTJs are famous for. We plan vast and we plan way ahead.
- He acts his congeniality; he is not ENTP.
- Hm, nuh.

Whereas he's taking on a nonchalant, almost arrogant position to his adversary with a very undiplomatic (which an ENTJ would much less likely do) but honest answer but lacking the proper facts to back it up (which is unnatural for a sensor).

Arrogant is such a negative and well documented ENTJ trait, nonchalant and very undiplomatic also. We call a nut, a nut; and even when we are manipulative, we are not diplomatic. There is a big difference.

==============================

Let's see what traits Putin has shown.
- He is a master strategist.
- He is not a theorist; he applies. Is the effect that matters; not the process (unless the process makes the effect ofc which again makes him not a theorist but an ...applier).
- He is reserved and serious.
- He rose up the ranks quietly. Head down, work right attitude.
- He is obviously lethal/ has no sh*t attitude.
- He is not a diplomat. The art of keeping his mouth shut, he knows but you can see his muscles tense when he has to do that.
- He took a crumbling Russia and made it almost back to the superpower it once was.
- He plays consciously the publicity games to appear cuddly/manly/effective: he plays with kids, plays with dogs, goes hunting, etc. But is just that; applying plan.
- His martial art is a defensive one.
- Humour is subtle and hardly his strong point except with close friends/family.
- He pays attention to people.
- He has effectiveness charisma but is not a people's person charisma. He has to force and persuade. He can't charm (to the degree other leaders of his caliber can).
- His whole image was "I am not cute, I bend things to my will for the team's sake". His more cuddly images were copiously implemented.

Based on those, I discard INTJ.
I discard ENTP as he lacks that party-friendly type of charisma I see in entps.
I discard INTP as he is goal oriented in a very practical way.
I discard ENTJ...reluctantly. Putin strikes me as clear I, though I may be wrong.

ISTJs are quiet and reserved individuals who are interested in security and peaceful living. They have a strongly-felt internal sense of duty, which lends them a serious air and the motivation to follow through on tasks. Organized and methodical in their approach, they can generally succeed at any task which they undertake.

While they generally take things very seriously, they also usually have an offbeat sense of humor* and can be a lot of fun - especially at family or work-related gatherings.

ISTJs are faithful, logical, organized, sensible, and earnest traditionalists who enjoy keeping their lives and environments well-regulated. Typically reserved and serious individuals, they earn success through their thoroughness and extraordinary dependability. They are capable of shutting out distractions in order to take a practical, logical approach to their endeavors, and are able to make the tough decisions that other types avoid. Realistic and responsible,

ISTJs are often seen as worker bees striving steadily toward their goals.

*

Minimally, a state leader should have a head. A response made to the Hillary Clinton's claim that Putin has no soul.

ISTJ gets my vote and I just developed a liking for their males. <.<

 

[humansponge]

I'm strangely attracted to him.

 

[dragulagu]

I admire that guy, too. And yeah, he is a male worth having in one's bed. =]


- Iron fist can be ESTJ too.
- Strategic planning is what ENTJs are famous for. We plan vast and we plan way ahead.
- He acts his congeniality; he is not ENTP.
- Hm, nuh.


Arrogant is such a negative and well documented ENTJ trait, nonchalant and very undiplomatic also. We call a nut, a nut; and even when we are manipulative, we are not diplomatic. There is a big difference.

==============================

Let's see what traits Putin has shown.
- He is a master strategist.
- He is not a theorist; he applies. Is the effect that matters; not the process (unless the process makes the effect ofc which again makes him not a theorist but an ...applier).
- He is reserved and serious.
- He rose up the ranks quietly. Head down, work right attitude.
- He is obviously lethal/ has no sh*t attitude.
- He is not a diplomat. The art of keeping his mouth shut, he knows but you can see his muscles tense when he has to do that.
- He took a crumbling Russia and made it almost back to the superpower it once was.
- He plays consciously the publicity games to appear cuddly/manly/effective: he plays with kids, plays with dogs, goes hunting, etc. But is just that; applying plan.
- His martial art is a defensive one.
- Humour is subtle and hardly his strong point except with close friends/family.
- He pays attention to people.
- He has effectiveness charisma but is not a people's person charisma. He has to force and persuade. He can't charm (to the degree other leaders of his caliber can).
- His whole image was "I am not cute, I bend things to my will for the team's sake". His more cuddly images were copiously implemented.

Based on those, I discard INTJ.
I discard ENTP as he lacks that party-friendly type of charisma I see in entps.
I discard INTP as he is goal oriented in a very practical way.
I discard ENTJ...reluctantly. Putin strikes me as clear I, though I may be wrong.




*

ISTJ gets my vote and I just developed a liking for their males. <.<

I'm sorry but i am going to fire a verbal bullet on your argumentation here.
ISTJ is the duty fullfiller role, a traditionalist and are way way different compared to ENTJ's. I see no decent fundation to your direct vote looking at the counterargumentation you gave (eg. jumping from ENTJ to ISTJ at the end as a vote).

However I tend to sway to your argumentation on him being ENTJ. I can see the validation of these points but I'll have to comment:

-INTJ's are master strategists too, both types are seen having strategic prowess (NT + J)
-the process vs result has nothing to do with E or I it has to do with J/P, judgement wants result, P is more interested in process
-He is reserved and serious is more leaning towards Introversion then extraversion, however ENTJ's are also known for these traits
-Rising up the ranks quietly happens for both types, ENTJ's have a quicker approach on this thought due to their natural take-charge attitude, whereas INTJ's rather wait unless it is necessairy to do so
-Lethal / no shit attitude leans to the xNTJ part, both are allergic to bullshit, especially INTJ (smalltalk)
-Not being a diplomat leans more towards ENTJ since ENTJ's do answer truthfully (and effectively) in a quicker manner, however as my link clearly shows as well as you phrase it, he waits and answers after hearing all the arguments, thus coming very arrogantly which leads to introverted handling of information intake.
-Taking the superpower is possible for both INTJ an ENTJ
-As you say, it's played, planned, he is playing the Extraverted type to show he is more of a people person. If he would be Extraverted he does it naturally.
-I see no validity in him doing a defensive martial sport
-Neither is the humor, it's a subjective opinion
-Him paying attention to people is an observation trait, natural for ENTJ, more learned for INTJ, possible for both
-ENTJ's have a natural charisma to make people follow them, that's as you say people charisma, INTJ's have a natural charisma in an objective way, being more the constructive objective optimization role, so this argument is pro towards INTJ
-Again it's a subjective opinion, whereas his pictures are true or not is something for his PR team

So based on your opinions i see INTJ as a valid choice with a close ENTJ option as a second choice.

ISTJ is 100% not his type, a traditionalist will try to put russia to where it was, a conceptualist (xNTx) will try to optimize and change the traditional structure to what he/she deems good for the "bigger purpose".

Again, sorry for those direct attacks on your argumentation but I have studied Jung/MBTI for a long while now and thus took a bit of an offensive status here. Off course feel free to counter my argumentation, i'm sure i won't be 100% right either.

 

[TheBoss]

I'm sorry but i am going to fire a verbal bullet on your argumentation here.
(...)
Again, sorry for those direct attacks on your argumentation but I have studied Jung/MBTI for a long while now and thus took a bit of an offensive status here. Off course feel free to counter my argumentation, i'm sure i won't be 100% right either.

Why do you apologize? You presented arguments. Well justified ones.
Your post was a good refute in spite of whether I stick to my assessment or not.
In addition, you attacked the arguments, not me.

For someone who has "studied for a long while now" you should remember entj's are the ones to high five someone who offers a better and solid argument even if it is against them. :wink:

So, do not apologize, you did a great job. I will explain the jump and argue a few points.
First I addressed the NT possibilities because many were focusing on them in this thread.
Then I addressed the possibility that as unlikely for a leader, seemed viable to me.
I hope the "jump" makes sense now.
The poins to argue are these:
- ENTJs go towards leadership un-quietly. Don't think just jobs, think of all situations. We are drastic. We leap. Sometimes we even demand the leadership.

-

a traditionalist will try to put russia to where it was, a conceptualist (xNTx) will try to optimize and change the traditional structure to what he/she deems good for the "bigger purpose".

Eurasian Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea, based on the European Union's integration, was brought to attention in October 2011 by the Prime Minister of Russia, Vladimir Putin,

Is not based on European Union, is based in USSR with the pretend (and why not) to be modern. Just look at the area (it will help if you recall where ussr extended before it collapsed). "Putting Russia where it was" literally and maybe after that it expands a bit too. Yes, he is not the only or the first proposing it but he is the one that strives the most to make it happen.

 

[dragulagu]

Why do you apologize? You presented arguments. Well justified ones.
Your post was a good refute in spite of whether I stick to my assessment or not.
In addition, you attacked the arguments, not me.

For someone who has "studied for a long while now" you should remember entj's are the ones to high five someone who offers a better and solid argument even if it is against them. :wink:

So, do not apologize, you did a great job. I will explain the jump and argue a few points.
First I addressed the NT possibilities because many were focusing on them in this thread.
Then I addressed the possibility that as unlikely for a leader, seemed viable to me.
I hope the "jump" makes sense now.i
The poins to argue are these:
- ENTJs go towards leadership un-quietly. Don't think just jobs, think of all situations. We are drastic. We leap. Sometimes we even demand the leadership.

-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Union]Eurasian Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is not based on European Union, is based in USSR with the pretend (and why not) to be modern. Just look at the area (it will help if you recall where ussr extended before it collapsed). "Putting Russia where it was" literally and maybe after that it expands a bit too. Yes, he is not the only or the first proposing it but he is the one that strives the most to make it happen.

You got me on ENTJ's loving being challenged with arguments, I felt that my counterarguments would be a bit too aggressive towards your argumentation (I have developed a slight T/F variation) and thus took an apologetic stance. I should've just rationalized on this one.

That aside I do understand your jump now from ENTJ to ISTJ because he indeed is much less drastic in his approach than a ENTJ. However I'm not agreeing with the end point as a personality , being ISTJ. Because from what I have analysed from his character there are too many points pointing that he is not an ISTJ (having both a sister as well as a good friend who are both ISTJ I have a close 1st hand check on their personality types).

The only valiable option at the moment I still have is INTJ with E variations (I'm sure he has trained a lot on controlling his personality through the KGB, I could go even as far as say that he puts up an ISTJ personality to look as a duty full filler, which i'm sure attracts his voters), being an INTJ myself I do see many recognizable traits in him (and since i'm studying my own type a lot as well as the possible variations on that type and how to improve on those I can understand the confusion that he could make to people who analyse his character).

However then came your argument of the eurasian nation, which indeed resembles the old USSR and thus targets to a tradionalist approach. The difference that I see however between both unions is that the USSR was led by a federal republic and while the current Russia is led by a semi-presidential federal republic, the eurasian union will be led by an eurasian commission, which is modelled on the European Commission (see wiki).

With this I think he wants to use the old USSR model but wants to optimize that model by merging it with the european commission model and thus optimizing the structure. And this seems more something for a conceptualizer than a traditionalist.

Thank you for the compliment for my argumentation, on my part I gladly take time to reply on your argumentation since those as very well are worth replying too

 

[TheBoss]

I'm sure he has trained a lot on controlling his personality through the KGB, I could go even as far as say that he puts up an ISTJ personality to look as a duty full filler, which i'm sure attracts his voters), being an INTJ myself
(...)
With this I think he wants to use the old USSR model but wants to optimize that model by merging it with the european commission model and thus optimizing the structure. And this seems more something for a conceptualizer than a traditionalist.

I can see an INTJ looking for the conspiracy within the conspiracy. =)
Is possible you are right.

Just a small food for thought before I hit the bed. Would we be erroneous to say all great Czars/leaders improved their regime anyway? Sure he will optimize the structure but in every structure there is a head. And isn't a "Czar" the most traditional term we have for a Russian ruler? I see Enlightened Rulership all over Putin. The kind Peter, Catherine and Ivan did (am drawing parallels to 'traditional' here).
Btw, he won't merge with west Europe, he can only make alliances with them.

Still, I respect your opinion and see no reason why he shouldn't be a too self controlled ENTJ, or an INTJ. I still vote for the outsider though.

We can probably use this pic where he stares at the heart with "wtf is this" disgust as argument to rule out F types:

:laughing:

 

[dragulagu]

I can see an INTJ looking for the conspiracy within the conspiracy. =)
Is possible you are right.

Just a small food for thought before I hit the bed. Would we be erroneous to say all great Czars/leaders improved their regime anyway? Sure he will optimize the structure but in every structure there is a head. And isn't a "Czar" the most traditional term we have for a Russian ruler? I see Enlightened Rulership all over Putin. The kind Peter, Catherine and Ivan did (am drawing parallels to 'traditional' here).
Btw, he won't merge with west Europe, he can only make alliances with them.

Still, I respect your opinion and see no reason why he shouldn't be a too self controlled ENTJ, or an INTJ. I still vote for the outsider though.

We can probably use this pic where he stares at the heart with "wtf is this" disgust as argument to rule out F types:

​

:laughing:

Hah, looking at that pic i can definately exclude this gentleman from the F club.

On the small food part: I've been reflecting about it for a while and while I certainly don't have a lot of knowledge on russian history I'm going to give my 2 cents on it:

Through history the russians had a lot of conflicts and reformations and during these times formed a certain social/economical/psychological attitude. I'll actually agree with you that the leadership he's showing is traditionalist because this is what Russia is used to. So while he's using a conceptualist approach on the re-unification of the Eurasian nation, the original concept he's using is a traditionalist one and thus it probably will need a traditionalist leader to form this.

It's a tough cookie this topic because you have a serious valid point here on the traditionalism of the whole Russian leader concept.

PS: A fun reference clip on the "attitude" of Russia: youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8