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Lotus Jester
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I know for me. accepting avarice as my core vice was extremely difficult for me to realize and I could always find countless ways to rationalize and deny it. It affected my relationships most of all, because avarice didn't really jibe too well with my self image. I think that for the longest time; that I was deeply ashamed of; so I tended to only form connections with people who couldn't trigger it: People who were emotionally stingy and ungiving of themselves. This way, I was able to rationalize it to myself as somehow justified and therefore; something other than avarice.

So, how about you? How did you come to accept your type's vice?
 

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Yeah, because I don't really get angry in the traditional sense. More like a moderate burn of irritation that undergirds much of my daily life. And I don't feel I'm all that envious because I don't want another person's life. I don't hate myself that much.
 
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Lotus Jester
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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah, because I don't really get angry in the traditional sense. More like a moderate burn of irritation that undergirds much of my daily life. And I don't feel I'm all that envious because I don't want another person's life. I don't hate myself that much.
I'm just curious, what is your E type?
 

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Lotus Jester
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Either a 1 or 4, I'm not certain. I know I'm Sx/Sp and I'm an INFJ too.
Well, I don't know enough about you to help you figure that out; all I can suggest to you is to ask yourself: of all of the 9 vices, that apply to you; which one are you the most loathe to admit to?
 

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Accepting that Indolence is my E core vice was like accepting that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West (for me it does)... it just is, and obviously so.
 

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I don't accept my vices, I revel in them.
 

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Lotus Jester
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Discussion Starter #9
@bluhorizon, @Sonny and @Accidie; well, I think it's great that you accept your core type's vice that easily, but for me it was/is a major struggle. It greatly distresses me, when either my ethical beliefs or the expectations of others call on me, to reach out to them; while my inn emotional avarice fights against this. That is wonderful, when reaching out and connecting with others is something that I really don't want to do - which granted, is most of the time, but it can take hold and enslave me when I do; so I therefore either have to ignore it and push myself to emotionally connect, or it can keep me a prisoner of my own social aversions.

I guess what I'm saying is that I experience push-pull feeling whenever I contemplate emotionally connecting with other people. I like people and I need friends; I just hate emotionally giving of myself to anyone. I feel that when I do; I experience this sense of my self just whithering away into nothingness - that the other person will anihilate me with their demands, unpredictability and possible hostility.
 

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The vice for my type is envy. I've struggled to draw the connection, conceptually, between envy... and my life. I can feel envious at times, but not really to the effect I would consider it a major impairment. It made more sense once I understood it as a deeper fear of being dispensable, replaced, or overlooked.

This is somewhat difficult for me to accept, because I hate the thought of being "entitled" in any way. Really, everything about this vice seems rather pathetic. I also don't like feeling selfish, like I do when I am envious of someone else's happiness. Being selfish conflicts with my ~values~ and ~ideals~. And yet I don't know how to reframe my thinking to fully overcome this. The void, the temptation, the dark pull towards this "vice" is there whether I want to admit it or not. Blaaah!
 

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I know for me. accepting avarice as my core vice was extremely difficult for me to realize and I could always find countless ways to rationalize and deny it. It affected my relationships most of all, because avarice didn't really jibe too well with my self image. I think that for the longest time; that I was deeply ashamed of; so I tended to only form connections with people who couldn't trigger it: People who were emotionally stingy and ungiving of themselves. This way, I was able to rationalize it to myself as somehow justified and therefore; something other than avarice.

So, how about you? How did you come to accept your type's vice?
See, that's not what you are describing is avarice because avarice is not something you can choose. You cannot choose to be with people who trigger or don't trigger avarice. Avarice is just always there, an idea that informs your psyche of how the world operates. Furthermore, avarice doesn't just pertain to relationships with people, but it pertains to my relationship with the world in general.

So whatever you accepted, it may have been something negative about your person but I doubt it was avarice. I didn't even accept avarice when it came to type because my type was just so undeniable there was nothing to accept when it came to image. It was just the simple truth of it.
 

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Lotus Jester
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Discussion Starter #12
See, that's not what you are describing is avarice because avarice is not something you can choose. You cannot choose to be with people who trigger or don't trigger avarice. Avarice is just always there, an idea that informs your psyche of how the world operates. Furthermore, avarice doesn't just pertain to relationships with people, but it pertains to my relationship with the world in general.

So whatever you accepted, it may have been something negative about your person but I doubt it was avarice. I didn't even accept avarice when it came to type because my type was just so undeniable there was nothing to accept when it came to image. It was just the simple truth of it.
I don't agree with you and I'm not going to bother arguing with you about it.
 

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Cowardice? Yeah, that's a hard pill to swallow. I keep company with the underdog and I always have. There has been little more fulfilling than overcoming the odds. Paranoid because of an unstable upbringing but I couldn't imagine my life without it because it almost feels like clarity. I know it's not though. It's trusting in others and more importantly, myself. The same force, fear, guides me whether I feel like giving in or defying authority and honestly I'm still caught in the cycle.
 

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I think if I had seen the cowardice label first I would have fought it kicking and screaming. Wherever the first description I saw was, it used "security" or some other more neutral term which let me accept it without getting all defensive.

But it's real and it's there, and I feel like denying it would be giving in to the fear of my own self.
 

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I know for me. accepting avarice as my core vice was extremely difficult for me to realize and I could always find countless ways to rationalize and deny it. It affected my relationships most of all, because avarice didn't really jibe too well with my self image. I think that for the longest time; that I was deeply ashamed of; so I tended to only form connections with people who couldn't trigger it: People who were emotionally stingy and ungiving of themselves. This way, I was able to rationalize it to myself as somehow justified and therefore; something other than avarice.

So, how about you? How did you come to accept your type's vice?
I'm not sure how to understand avarice in context of enneagram. I have tendency to be possessive about people, but I know it for long, long time, since childhood, and I always keep it in mind and try to moderate myself. I guess I may be greedy or possessive in other aspects of life and I may not notice it.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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I mistyped a bunch of times because of the vice, "envy."

I don't envy other people - except when I'm very taken with a man, I will envy the power he has over me, like I want to win a power-struggle against him so much that I want to be him and do it better than he does. I feel like I'm below him and he is on a pedestal, and I could never possibly be good enough to deserve him, but I do strive. That is a manifestation of envy.

However if he would date another woman for instance, I wouldn't be jealous of her for long; I would be angry and in a rage until I lost interest. I've never compared myself to other women at all. I was a pro singer and lost my voice to an illness, so I'm painfully sad when women sing the way I used to, but I still don't want to be them; I just want my own voice back. Same with my hair which fell out from the illness - I see a woman with similar hair, and I want my old hair back. I think that's just human though, not core 4 specific. However I definitely 'envy my past' and hold tightly to it.

Compared to most people I know, I envy other people less. I am very, very counter-envy.. I don't ever want to be anyone else, I don't compare myself to anyone else, I don't envy other people their happiness at all. It goes so far that I actually feel like I'm another species from another planet so I can't compare myself to their species, and I wouldn't want to anyway. I don't want to be anything other than myself, nor do I want to 'be like them' or 'have what they have,' but I suppose you could say I envy the idea of a better life, or the idea of myself embodying my own ideal, myself being like I was in the past or could be in the future, or things like this.

It was very hard for me to see envy in myself especially as a core vice, but once I saw what it means for me, there was no going back. I know I'm correctly typed this time, and the reason I couldn't see it and skipped through so many types, dancing around my core (5w4, 3w4, and then 8w7, which is its inverse and similar in some ways) ... is precisely because of how I don't see myself as someone who envies others their happiness or wants to be someone else.
 

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bored.skip.blind. This is why.

Before:

Of course I love my family
I love everyone who I'm loyal to
and culture dictates that I should
love my teachers too as parental figures
and some are awesome and funny and nice
and totally worth it
of course I love

After:

When I examine my emotional attachments
I am shocked to find [blank]
superficial idealization
What I see as respect, professionalism and politeness
becomes itsy bitsy fears
tailored in apathy
I cannot feel

I cannot feel for long durations
affections any
for those who stay their position
and supervise
for those who swear on blood ties
and not me
for those who I share my life with willingly, yet
blanch at ever having to miss and so have not
for all of my exaggerated reactions
3-minute heats of responsiveness
careless reassurances
made to distract and deceive no one but myself
I love sparsely

and only when there is space
 

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@Animal , I don't quite understand how you experience envy if it isn't actual envy?

To the OP, no, I don't think I had any trouble accepting my core vice. I think of all the vices fear is probably the least shameful one since it doesn't involve much self-deception. I mean, I feel the fear, I can't help it, there's nothing to be ashamed of because I'm not lying to myself, especially since I've never allowed myself to succumb to it. I took an anxiety test of the things you fear vs the things you avoid doing, and it turns out I fear pretty much everything and back down from none of it. So yes, I am ok with my core vice.

My 1 and 4 fixes were a lot more difficult to accept, because the vices are a lot uglier truths, though I find the problem is much less accepting there is one than it is realizing that I have no clue as to how to find my way out, that I'm completely and utterly powerless, that I don't know where to start. That I'm bloody trapped and blinded in my own unhealthiness, basically
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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@Animal , I don't quite understand how you experience envy if it isn't actual envy?
It is, I just didn't understand it as such. SX 4 is "counter-envy" and sometimes a thing is so pervasive that you can't see it plainly.

That's not all of it though. I can see it, but I express it in music, writing and through creative and other means. I have never tried to box certain things in words before PerC. It's been an interesting exercise and very hard for me, because I am used to processing my feelings in a different way and have written music & stories since I was small. I express "who I am" plainly but then I wonder, did I express it fully? Was I the same way last year? Is this really what I mean to say about myself? Should I really have to explain myself... shouldn't my self just *show* through my actions?

My relationship with envy is not something I want to talk about directly or feel comfortable delving into.. or really have the words for.. I'm sorry . :( Maybe over time it will be easier.
 
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