Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Most 4s that I see out there are INFP types, and introvert intuitive types either way, so it's sometimes hard to relate to their experiences.
On the other hand, ESFPs are often described somewhat conformist and boneless, to stay in the good graces of others, in order to entertain. I am certainly not conformist. It upsets me if people don't like me and stare at me weird, thinking I'm a misfit, but doing something against my integrity upsets me far worse, so I just don't.
Is there any place I can read about others, that have closer specifics to what I am? It helps me look at different angles when introspective and I like to take the advice and experiences of like-minded people and try them out, if they work for me, since very little of what is available out there does. It try too watch out for what I CAN DO to make my life happier, rather than what I CAN'T DO, so any experiences you might have to share, or even references to famous people are very helpful.

:words:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
787 Posts
I assume that ESFP 4s would be exclusively 4w3--that gives an extra edge of social grace, performance, and inner conflict along the lines of what you were describing. Also, 4w3s can often appear to be 7s, which I know is a common type for ExFPs in general.

Does this sound about right? :)

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
I can't think of any famous/fictional ESFP 4s off the top of my head, but I'll try to rack my brains some more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dora

·
Registered
Joined
·
787 Posts
Wait a second! Oscar Wilde was totally an ExFP and a 4w3, so he's a possibility.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dora

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I assume that ESFP 4s would be exclusively 4w3--that gives an extra edge of social grace, performance, and inner conflict along the lines of what you were describing. Also, 4w3s can often appear to be 7s, which I know is a common type for ExFPs in general.

Does this sound about right? :)

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
I can't think of any famous/fictional ESFP 4s off the top of my head, but I'll try to rack my brains some more.
Thanks for posting that. It's not a tight fit, but there are some things that resonate. The dichotomy I can feel every day - I am wall to wall and sometimes I feel like two polar people, where both are real, but pretty much mutually exclusive and have middle ground. Don't know really how to explain it, I don't have a multiple personality disorder, I just tend to swing from one pole to the other.
Self-sabotage... I think that's something I do exactly. Sometimes it feels like more than just laziness when I don't do something, that I have a drive to do - it's like I'm afraid, that whatever I produce, whatever the form becomes of my inspiration, it won't be as perfect as I see myself and it will bring home an uncomfortable truth, which is that I'm nowhere good enough. And I don't want to see that, so it's easier to not do things, not strive, and lie to myself, that if I did, it would be a masterpiece, but I just don't want to, or I'm too busy.

Wait a second! Oscar Wilde was totally an ExFP and a 4w3, so he's a possibility.
Oh, the irony, I'm just watching a show, where there's Dorian Gray (Penny Dreadful)! That sounds pretty legit. Hedonism and a perverted attraction to decadence does express me pretty well. I can't remember details of Wilde's life, but the impression I recall is of that.

It does seem, that 4w3 is more likely for the sensor 4s than 4w5, which I'd guess is the more intuitive part.
 
  • Like
Reactions: throughtheroses

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
ESFPs don't really conform.... they often like to startle people, actually, which is common with ExxPs.
I admit I would suspect an ESFP 4 is really an ISFP or ENFP. Sensing dominance is a bit at odds with the 4 fixation.
Perhaps a 3w4 ESFP or mistyped 7 to. But if they were dead-set about being a 4, then I'd want to know what makes them feel they are ESFP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
ESFPs don't really conform.... they often like to startle people, actually, which is common with ExxPs.
I admit I would suspect an ESFP 4 is really an ISFP or ENFP. Sensing dominance is a bit at odds with the 4 fixation.
Perhaps a 3w4 ESFP or mistyped 7 to. But if they were dead-set about being a 4, then I'd want to know what makes them feel they are ESFP.
I did think I was an ISFP originally, because I am awkward around people and not comfortable with a lot of them. However, in the right crowd, I am all ESFP. And actually it was the functional stacking that eventually made it clear. I am such an obvious Se dom. Though my Fi is and always was pretty developed. The int. vs ent. I am quite close in, but I am the extreme pole of sensor and the extreme pole of feeler. I have plenty ENFPs around me, and trust me, they are charming, but I am definitely not that.

I would tend to think they're not really ESFPs or not really 4s.

7 sx can mistype as 4 pretty easily.
From what I understand ESFP type 4 is relatively rare, but it happens. I am not a 7. Also, have no problem being honest with myself and being rather introspective. I've taken the test multiple times, at least two different tests and always come out as a 4.

What makes you think I CAN'T be a 4 or an ESFP?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I did think I was an ISFP originally, because I am awkward around people and not comfortable with a lot of them. However, in the right crowd, I am all ESFP. And actually it was the functional stacking that eventually made it clear. I am such an obvious Se dom. Though my Fi is and always was pretty developed. The int. vs ent. I am quite close in, but I am the extreme pole of sensor and the extreme pole of feeler. I have plenty ENFPs around me, and trust me, they are charming, but I am definitely not that.



From what I understand ESFP type 4 is relatively rare, but it happens. I am not a 7. Also, have no problem being honest with myself and being rather introspective. I've taken the test multiple times, at least two different tests and always come out as a 4.

What makes you think I CAN'T be a 4 or an ESFP?
Edit: Okay, that came out more confrontational than it was meant to. It's just, I get hurt by hearing all the time "You're not one of us!" Seems I'm the odd one out in every group of any sort, because I'm fucking different. I don't want to conform, or have to change who I am, but at the same time it would be nice if I was accepted for who I am somewhere without being told "You can't be who you are, you must be wrong."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
552 Posts
Edit: Okay, that came out more confrontational than it was meant to. It's just, I get hurt by hearing all the time "You're not one of us!" Seems I'm the odd one out in every group of any sort, because I'm fucking different. I don't want to conform, or have to change who I am, but at the same time it would be nice if I was accepted for who I am somewhere without being told "You can't be who you are, you must be wrong."
I don't know you at all and it's not my intention to invalidate your experience. You can self-type any way you want. Do what you gotta do if it feels right to you. It's just that in my experience I have never seen an ESFP 4 and from what I've read both about dominant Se and enneagram 4 the combination is highly unlikely. People who self-type that way are probably misinterpreting one or both of the descriptions imo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
552 Posts
I should also say that as someone who straddles the 4w5/7w6 sx divide ... those two types can feel VERY alike not just superficially but also from internal experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
787 Posts
@Mostly Harmless @OrangeAppled

Why is it so unlikely? If we were talking about an ESTP here, I'd also be a little skeptical. But ESFPs have Fi, which is usually seen as the "most 4" of cognitive functions. In fact, it's remarkably easy (expected, even) for someone to be in touch with their secondary function. Se does not invalidate Fi or being a 4, and it's bizarre to me that anyone would think as much.

Would you also say that it's unlikely for ISFPs to be 4s? No? They're basically a sneeze away from ESFPs, so what's the big difference?

4w3s especially tend to veer towards theatricality, hedonism, and showmanship, and they often are mistaken for 7s by people who don't know their inner pain. That is extremely compatible with SeFi, or have you never heard of Oscar Wilde?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
@<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=28313" target="_blank">Mostly Harmless</a></b>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
@<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=1652" target="_blank">OrangeAppled</a></b>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->

Why is it so unlikely? If we were talking about an ESTP here, I'd also be a little skeptical. But ESFPs have Fi, which is usually seen as the "most 4" of cognitive functions. In fact, it's remarkably easy (expected, even) for someone to be in touch with their secondary function. Se does not invalidate Fi or being a 4, and it's bizarre to me that anyone would think as much.

Would you also say that it's unlikely for ISFPs to be 4s? No? They're basically a sneeze away from ESFPs, so what's the big difference?

4w3s especially tend to veer towards theatricality, hedonism, and showmanship, and they often are mistaken for 7s by people who don't know their inner pain. (...)
That's what I'm thinking too - type 4 most relates to Fi and I do have that and use that. I'd say my judging function is quite developed. It seems to me that most 4w5s are intuitives, but a lot of 4w3s are sensors, albeit mostly introverts. I have read that type 4 is an option for ESFPs. I've read about some too. Just found one of the places where they are mentioned:

Four is about identity and self-discovery. It's common for ENFPs and ISFPs but not so common for ESFPs, though it's not unheard of. Four is correlated with Fi. ESFP 4s are gonna be very creative types. Four needs to express itself somehow. They'll be very open with their feelings, or at least very in tune with them. ESFP 4s will also have a distinct "look" to them and will get irritated when people try to copy it. An ESFP 4 will typically be attention-hungry since they need to stand out.
From here

Also, some paper that put some enneagram and MBTI correlations together:
most introverted: 5, 4 (others fairly far behind)
most extroverted: 7, 2 (ditto, more so for the 7)
most intuitive types: 5, 4 (7 not far behind)
most sensitive types: 6 (no other types were clear-cut S's)
most thinking types: 1, 8, 5 (rest are far behind)
most feeling types: 2, 7,9,4 (after 2 the rest were all distant seconds)
most judging types: 1, 8 (the 1 was wayyyyyy on the judging side)
most perceiving types: 7, 4, 5 (after the 7 things get close)
From here
It seems to show that 4 is a viable option for feeling types and perceiving types both.

Some theoretize that Adele is an ESFP type 4.

And for now last, but by far not least, a suggestion on the forums of an example of an ESFP type 4 on the forums:

ESFP 4w3 So/Sx
From here

The last one is a new one for me, but I was entertained and yes, I guess that would fit. More flamboyant than you'd expect, but I guess that DOES fit me when I do my own thing. That's what happens when you combine a unique artistic style with an Se dom, that broadcasts it out very physically on top of all:wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
If ENFP's can be Fours why not ESFP's? It might be unlikely but possible.
It's important to look at Enneagram types beyond the surface and see if you relate to core fears and motivations. Someone might look like a Four (artistic, quirky) but actually be a 7, 9 or even a 5. I personally relate to a lot of types on some level. You can also look at instinctual variants. @Dora
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dora

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
What makes you think I CAN'T be a 4 or an ESFP?
I never said you can't be a 4 OR ESFP, but that being ESFP AND 4 is a contradiction because of their ego fixations. More on that below.

Why is it so unlikely? If we were talking about an ESTP here, I'd also be a little skeptical. But ESFPs have Fi, which is usually seen as the "most 4" of cognitive functions. In fact, it's remarkably easy (expected, even) for someone to be in touch with their secondary function. Se does not invalidate Fi or being a 4, and it's bizarre to me that anyone would think as much.

Would you also say that it's unlikely for ISFPs to be 4s? No? They're basically a sneeze away from ESFPs, so what's the big difference?
Look, a lot of people come here and they read some threads and pick up some terms like "function stacking", but they really have no idea what the ego is and how both Jungian type and enneatype are both the ego (and so any random combination cannot occur given there is too much contradiction). Many here have never read the most basic books on type (ie Gifts Differing), but they parrot crap others have posted in threads or anyonymous blogs. Then they want to argue about it, and they act like you are the one with limited understanding!

Short explanation: The 4 fixation is partially a result of inferior sensing and thinking. This makes it unlikely if not impossible for sensing and thinking dominants to be 4s.

The reason you see 4 ISFPs is because their ego is Fi, and they very often have a weaker sensing preference (particularly when young). In that way, they are closer to INFPs than ESFP. ESFPs have a Se ego. The Se ego is considered the realist of the realists. It is someone who identifies strongly with what actually IS, so that the 4 fixation of longing for what is not becomes incompatible.
ENFPs have a Ne ego (and inferior sensing, part of what leads to a 4 fixation).
Although if there was no big difference between any of these, then they wouldn't be seperate types to begin with....

Long explanation: read some books.

4w3s especially tend to veer towards theatricality, hedonism, and showmanship, and they often are mistaken for 7s by people who don't know their inner pain. That is extremely compatible with SeFi, or have you never heard of Oscar Wilde?
Wilde is ENFP and possibly a 7 anyhow.
Typing solely by rather surface traits is misleading, because you could argue for almost any type you feel like.
Understanding the ego fixations and how and why they develop will help clarify why surface traits occur across many types. It will also clarify the connections with Jungian types and enneatypes.


Four is about identity and self-discovery. It's common for ENFPs and ISFPs but not so common for ESFPs, though it's not unheard of. Four is correlated with Fi. ESFP 4s are gonna be very creative types. Four needs to express itself somehow. They'll be very open with their feelings, or at least very in tune with them. ESFP 4s will also have a distinct "look" to them and will get irritated when people try to copy it. An ESFP 4 will typically be attention-hungry since they need to stand out.
No. This is not what 4 is about, and it could apply to many types. This is total drivel (as is the source its taken from).

Read Psychological Types (Jung) and Character and Neuroses (Naranjo), to start. Understanding the ego types will help.

But hey, if someone wants to type a certain way to feel good, far be it from me to take that away. However, it is no personal attack to actually discuss the theory beyond the stereotypical, surface crap that gets spread all over this place.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
Jung helps, but being honest Ichazo and Maitri made way more sense to me than Naranjo. Also, how is stuff like this incompatible with seeing reality as it is? I mean, your reality can be so bad while the reality of others is better, therefore you may question yourself what's wrong with you. Really I don't recommend to try to explain enneatypes by linking them to functions or you end with stuff like all NTs tend to be type 5s.

Type 4 envy notices how others have what I don't because others are more capable than I am. It's a comparison of the positive in others with the negative in the self. -- it can even be worse if you can't avoid to see your reality.
The type 4 trap seeks an authentic sense of self by cultivating an emotional uniqueness that stands apart from others. Holy origin points to a more inherent unfolding of one's own uniqueness in the universe without having to distinguish oneself by cultivating that uniqueness.
Type 4 authenticity is derived from being true to an inner emotional reality that distinguishes oneself from others.
Type 4 melancholy surrounds a lack of emotional fulfillment that longs for what isn't and disparages what is.

The thing is, cognition is how you process information while enneatype is what drives you. So discarding rare combinations isn't a wise idea to be honest.
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
@OrangeAppled

I'd appreciate if you didn't condescend to me and tell me to do more research. You're the one erroneously conflating two tangentially related systems here.
:snort: Do more research. They both describe the ego. You don't need one to understand the other, but in trying to find their common points you can't treat them like totally separate aspects of human personality/psychology.

I read this response as "I don't want to actually make the effort to learn anything, but yet I will insist my uneducated view is correct."

Have fun with that and stop wasting my time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Daeva

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
:snort: Do more research. They both describe the ego. You don't need one to understand the other, but in trying to find their common points you can't treat them like totally separate aspects of human personality/psychology.

I read this response as "I don't want to actually make the effort to learn anything, but yet I will insist my uneducated view is correct."

Have fun with that and stop wasting my time.
So under this premise, which would be the only enneatypes that an ESFP could have? also for contrast, please tell me which ones are possible for INTJ as they have the same functions but in reverse order.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
552 Posts
Oscar Wilde was probably 7w6 sx. 7 sx is the most fiery, focused and romance-driven subtype of 7 ... and IME, they often distract themselves from their real pain by inventing pain because invented pain is easier to deal with. So understandably they can look a whole lot like 4s.

I want 4s to look at this 7 sx description and tell me that they don't identify with it, right down to seeing partners not as they are but how they want them to be so they won't be disappointed ... even though they are disappointed. The neuroses have similar results but different sources. If you're diagnosing by symptoms rather than motivations, you're not going to get far.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
787 Posts
Oscar Wilde was probably 7w6 sx.
Then we disagree. As someone who has extensively studied Wilde, it's almost impossible to ignore his patterns of integration and disintegration to 1 and 2 respectively. Even though he may have looked like a 7 and acted like a 7, that man was simply a 4w3. You're allowed to think differently, but so am I. I refuse to argue on this point any further, so please don't bother me about this in the future.

That goes for anyone else in this specific thread who may disagree with me. Thanks! :happy:
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top