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INTJ: head-in-clouds space case
ISTJ: hands-on taskmaster

INTJ: abstract science
ISTJ: technical engineering

INTJ: creates a plan that works or rebels against one that doesn't
ISTJ: sticks to the plan no matter what (could be stereotype)

INTJ: questions rules
ISTJ: accepts rules

INTJ: Clarice Starling
ISTJ: Hank Hill

Both: loyal and reliable
 

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INTP 9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so
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I would say that INTJs tend to be more opened to the "what if" while ISTJs look at what is and see things as being set and stone more than an INTJ would. They view the world in different ways. The way that the two types take in the world is a contrast to one another. The two types both take initiative but in very different ways. I have noticed the two types have different senses of humor as well. My brother-in-law who is an INTJ, while he has strong opinions on things, he often will ask people about why they feel the way they do if they think differently than him. I have a friend who is an ISTJ. I would say that I notice some similarities but a lot of differences in them. My ISTJ friend often is less likely to ask people about their viewpoint the way that they do and will just go to arguing his viewpoint. I would say that he's quicker to jump to conclusions than my brother-in-law is and he sticks with these conclusions. My dad is an ISTJ and he can be like this too. ISTJs are also more hyper-perceptive about the environment around them than an intuitive would be. ISTJs can be more organized than INTJs as well and their schedules are more set-in-stone. This is just my experience though.
 

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i want to say taht istjs probably get way more mileage - more juice - out of a pre-defined structure or plan than anyone else that i've met. whereas me, i know i'm only good for as much of a plan as is copacetic with whatever i'm thinking myself. soon as the plan seems to me like it's going an unnecessarily long way around or is being pedantic, i'm done.

i also suspect that they make better plans than i do in the first place. i'm sort of 'general goal . . . got the concept . . . basic milestones/gremlins along the way . . . okay, we're ready. let's wing it from here' kind of thing. i'll be vigilant about anything that seems to be turning us into side-tracks, but my mind has more of an as-the-crow-flies kind of shape. an istj will not only follow a road map meticulously - they will create a roadmap that takes you to it.


but since i never asked the handful of people i suspected of being istjs if that's what they actually were, that's completely pointless speculation from me :p the problem behidn that is: by the time i start suspecting someone might be, it's usually because i'm so irritated with them (and they're so irritated with me) that me asking would probably sound like an insult to them. 'are you an istj? because if you aren't . . . '
 

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If we are to examine this from Psychology's domains of Personality ("Five Factor Model / Big 5 / OCEAN")... there should be two large differences on Average.

On average "ISTJs" are more Conscientious, which is a good predictor of political Conservatism. Conscientiousness can be divided into Industriousness and Orderliness of which "ISTJs" on average will be higher in Orderliness. Orderliness marks not only a dislike for mess in one's environment or poor scheduling, but a desire for and adherence to rules.

On average "ISTJs" are lower in Openness to Experience, a high score is the best predictor of political Liberalism. Openness to Experience can be divided into Intellect and Openness of which "ISTJs" on average will be lower in both. Intellect is a measure of interest in the abstract and complex. Openness concerns creativity and sensitivity to art, music, beauty; those high in Openness daydream significantly.
 

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Openness to new ide...Oh, never mind.
 

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If we are to examine this from Psychology's domains of Personality ("Five Factor Model / Big 5 / OCEAN")... there should be two large differences on Average.

On average "ISTJs" are more Conscientious, which is a good predictor of political Conservatism. Conscientiousness can be divided into Industriousness and Orderliness of which "ISTJs" on average will be higher in Orderliness. Orderliness marks not only a dislike for mess in one's environment or poor scheduling, but a desire for and adherence to rules.

On average "ISTJs" are lower in Openness to Experience, a high score is the best predictor of political Liberalism. Openness to Experience can be divided into Intellect and Openness of which "ISTJs" on average will be lower in both. Intellect is a measure of interest in the abstract and complex. Openness concerns creativity and sensitivity to art, music, beauty; those high in Openness daydream significantly.
Again, why dont we have a OCEAN subforum?
 

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My grandpa on my mom's side was an ISTJ. He was a conservative Republican. He was in the Army Corps of Engineers during the Korean War and later suffered from PTSD. Aside from that, he was also dyslexic and had been ridiculed by teachers when he was a kid, one of them going so far as to proclaim - to his face - that he'd never amount to anything. None of that stopped him from becoming a brilliant engineer after the war, a career that would last the rest of his working life. After he retired, he did woodworking as a hobby.

He's one of my heroes.

Note: Dyslexia occurs when a lobe in the right brain performs a task that's typically relegated to the analogous lobe in the left brain.

On average "ISTJs" are more Conscientious, which is a good predictor of political Conservatism. Conscientiousness can be divided into Industriousness and Orderliness
My grandpa was both.

adherence to rules.
From a Lawful Good perspective, sure, but also from an ergonomic perspective. Maybe we could swap "rules" with "facts" since rules aren't always based on fact or truth.

On average "ISTJs" are lower in Openness to Experience, a high score is the best predictor of political Liberalism. Openness to Experience can be divided into Intellect and Openness of which "ISTJs" on average will be lower in both. Intellect is a measure of interest in the abstract and complex. Openness concerns creativity and sensitivity to art, music, beauty; those high in Openness daydream significantly.
My conservative Republican grandpa loved Benny Hill (which might have been why he called me "Benny" instead of "Ben"). He also did woodworking as a hobby and he made lamps too. Even though those are focused on function rather than form, there's definitely an aesthetic element there.
 

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Because I want to be sure I am understood with my post, I said on Average the scores will be different in these ways. You can still have an ISTJ that differ higher or lower than an INTJ in one of these areas. I use the Five Factor Model for analysis because it is what is academically accepted for distinguishing individuals unlike the MBTI. I do not use D&D Alignment outside of role-play.

Industriousness in the aspect of Conscientiousness is essentially a wild card for people, you either are or you are not. Liberals and Conservatives appear equally Industrious although the mean percentile for Men show they are slightly more Industrious than Women. The trait of Orderliness is the predictor of Conservatism in the aspect of Conscientiousness; it is the second-best predictor of Conservatism, after Openness to Experience. Women on average are more orderly than Men, which explains sensitivity and reaction time to household work and disorder. People high in Orderliness tend to be disturbed, even disgusted, by mess and chaos. They can be guilty of black and white thinking, acceptable and unacceptable, with little room for grey areas. Everything is where it should be and they make sure they stay where they belong; detail-oriented. They are rule-abiding and insist they be observed; judgmental toward themselves and others when rules and procedures are ignored and broken. They can be good at ensuring complex processes are properly managed and followed. Excess Orderliness constrains creativity, even if one is high in Openness. I score high in Orderliness, moderately high in Industriousness, and exceptionally high in both fields of Openness to Experience, which is less common. I would describe myself as at times creatively rigid when I am without parameters, but very much driven by a need to do something creative from day-to-day or I become seriously depressed.

As for Openness to Experience, "INTJs" are to be well above most others in this regard. Exceptionally high Openness to Experience really denotes an interest in just about everything and a difficulty to settle on anything, therein presenting a battle with Industriousness. People with high Openness to Experience tend to be serial procrastinators, but this does not entirely conflict with Industriousness in that procrastination can be isolated from work life. High openness to experience denotes those who seek change, often to make things better, but also change for its own sake. Such people are best suited to creative enterprises where they have the most control over their work. The Intellect component, while not strictly about IQ, shows significant crossover in so far as people with a high IQ score high in Intellect. The Openness component is strongly tied to creativity and a love for beauty, without which the high scoring individual cannot thrive. Sensitivity and a strong response to colour, architecture, nature, music, media, books. If you so wish to look at this through Jungian Typology this would partly be the "INTJ's" and "INFJ's" shared "Inferior Se Function" that puts them on par with "ESFPs" and "ESTPs."
 

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Key differences:

Details vs Big Picture
ISTJ focus more on the details/specifics, while INTJs focus more on the big picture/the meaning behind the details.

New vs Old
ISTJs like to stick to established rules and processes, while INTJs may work to improve them/create new more efficient ones.

Open Mindedness vs Stead-Fast Beliefs
ISTJs tend to have stead-fast beliefs, while INTJs tend to be open-minded.
Example: An INTJ may find themselves switching their core beliefs regarding politics or religion more often than others throughout their life, while an ISTJ will have been firmly planted and dedicated to the same political/religious beliefs nearly their entire life.

Freedom vs Duty
ISTJ feel a sense of duty and obligation, while INTJs do not.
Example: ISTJs may struggle to say "no" to people and or rid themselves of toxic relationships, while INTJs tend to choose their freedom and peace of mind above all else/anyone else (i.e., they will resolutely cut toxic people out of their life, family members and all.)

Source: https://introvertdear.com/news/intj-istj-similarities-differences/
 

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Again, why dont we have a OCEAN subforum?
I think firstly because it was not the site's mission, but mostly because it is highly impractical.

The "Five Factors" of Personality are very complex past the surface trait descriptions. There is the bracket you score in (exceptionally low, moderately low, etc.) based on your percentile score of 1-99. Within your bracket you still diverge from other people based on the interplay of your other four aspects, again wide ranging from 1st-99th percentile. Furthermore, while the Five Factors are what Psychology embraces as a field for defining personality, the interplay of the factors is not entirely known as it is incredibly difficult to undertake for study. You would need a standardised, academically constructed test given to tens of thousands of people minimum wherein the questions you asked were consistently interpreted similarly. You would then only be studying with an approximation of someone's scores within the parameters you created, and individuals still further diverge based on their life experience and IQ.

So for starters, you cannot really group people. Literally everyone will have a percentile score value on Neuroticism from 1-99 so an open-ended Neuroticism forum is useless. Even attempting sub-forums by grouping people with score labels of Exceptionally Low, Moderately Low, Low, etc. for a given aspect of personality, it would still prove useless on a host of matters because of the other four trait scores with brackets and percentiles within those brackets based on how they understood the question and analysed their self when they took the test behind each and every response. You could only hope to get at least semi-personalised advice by attempting to consider responses from people who most nearly matched in all the brackets with you of each five traits. Also what of the people who are or nearly are on the verge of brackets. Also some trait combinations such as High Conscientiousness and Openness to Experience are considerably uncommon. Some people will get way more mileage than others. Also life experience and IQ are the large outside influencers at play on all of this.

Well, let's try to separate people within the Five Factors using the MBTI, you may think. Well, within "INTJ's", for instance, there is a wide range of Agreeableness and Conscientiousness. Agreeableness is broken into Compassion and Politeness, of which Compassion is an entity essentially out of someone's control. The maternal and protective instinct is nested within Compassion is primal and very chemical. People are a slave to this instinct, much like someone has no control in being a Sociopath. Politeness while being part nature on the other hand can be greatly influenced by upbringing, familial or cultural. You can also teach yourself to be more disagreeable in order to stand up for yourself. Conscientiousness, Industriousness, you either are or you are not. While you can count on "ISTJ's" on average being more Conscientious, specifically Orderly, you can also count on that all people consistently become more Orderly as they age. Call it wisdom, knowing how to operate to survive, routine, or perhaps set in your black and white ways. The Five Factors essentially must largely be used by minimising boxing a person in, examine people at an individual, almost clinical, level with a limited reference frame of known averages from trait to trait. Otherwise you fall into the many problematic holes of the MBTI, Enneagram, and similar tests which are not academically accepted and if they are used should be treated as a light tool.
 

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@Hei

All those points make sense but I dont see why they would be a cause for problems.

You dont even need to group people, just have one board where people can talk shit about topics related to the system. Nothing impractical or costly about that.

Its not like any of the other forums are particularly scientific or reliable :D, why should this suddenly be some haven of psychological science? In fact I do think it would be more scientific and useful because theres a good scientific base in the system, it isnt just stereotypes.

I think a lot of people could be helped better through OCEAN than mbti for example because mbti has this romanticizing archetype baggage attached to it and people mistype on a regular basis. With OCEAN they would be subjected to a more scientific and concrete approach and thus they would have a smaller chance of making fundamental mistakes in the descriptions of their various problems. Youre still going to get the "I am 99% openness and 0% conscious, send help" kind of posts but thats probably to be expected :D

Anyway, this is probably getting off topic :D
 

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When I think of ISTJs they are highly reliable people, with good time management skills, really well organized. But just like the majority of S-types they put stability (aka predictability) above else, so they accept the status quo willingly and cherish rules (ex. traditions, procedures, law). This is why I notice they don't like to take into account other opinions and ways of doing things, they simply prefer to stick to the plan. For INTJs such a way of thinking is just plain and boring :rolleyes:

I'm afraid I can agree with you @Judson Joist only to some degree
INTJ: abstract science
ISTJ: technical engineering
Although INTJs like to tackle some abstract problems, they are also great engineers and strategists (ex. scientists, entrepreneurs, top management). In case of ISTJs they are amazing in implementing things, so I would say they are generally much less interested in defining problems and finding new solutions. On the other hand, ISTJs are great at tasks that require diligence (ex. accounting, law, middle level management).
That's just my two cents.
 

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why are we even talking about ISTJ?
the fuck they done for ya lately
nada thats what
ENTJ/XNFX are more fun
 

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Istj is very traditional. They take the traditions and any situations, past or present, even anything they read or hear from the news (as long as it's generally accepted) as sources of truth. My mom is hard core istj and i can easily spot an istj in real life yes they are very reliable and hardworking, action oriented, loyal. But so are intjs in that regard.


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Will the real MBTI robot please stand up?
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One of us has fixed beliefs based in the past and on what others believe (and an adgenda: the desire to uphold those beliefs).
The other is independent, forward looking, adaptive & beholden to the truth above all (no adgenda or fixed beliefs).

One sees people who don't get in line/behave 'normally' as the height of arrogance.
The inherently not-normal, truth-valuing other refuses to apologize for breathing (or pretend to be different).

One believes you should keep busy and not think too much.
One likes to sit still while thinking too much.

One sees themselves as open-minded :)
The other sees them as a trouble-maker :(

The butterfly on a blade of grass one likes to impose order on their environment for the sake of tradition/order itself ('this is how we do it -- no need for change').
The other likes to impose order on their environment to create efficient logical systems (interplay with future, updates allowed).

One of us needs to go deep (see/think/feel deeply)
The other is incapable of going there (on average, to the same degree)

One of us has a soft gooey interior
The other (ime) most certainly does not.

I think the difference between INTJ & ISTJ becomes less clear when the ISTJ is exceptionally intelligent. Big 5 has been brought up; I score very high on conscientiousness and high on openness. I too expect that most ISTJs would score well on the former but not the latter. But intelligence is also correlated to openness, so you can get these unusually brilliant ISTJ guys like Warren Buffett who seem flexible and open to future ideas (although his investment style is typically quite traditional -- not that that's hurt him lol). Of course higher intelligence also tends to equate to higher accuracy in perception and higher rationality.

It's probably telling too that Buffett's life long bff, Charlie Munger, is an INTJ. Whereas my relatively closer to average ISTJ father and I simply do not get along. Our thinking/tendencies are in conflicting opposition. I'm generally 'to each their own' and get along with a wide variety of MBTI types (including other S types) but the folly of the ISTJs I've seen being so serious while seriously wrong at times, trying to impose their idea of order upon people (being controlling/punishing), is too much for independent, perceptive me to tolerate (or take seriously). Also, where's the fun & 'human' side? No doubt I got a bad one with my father and they aren't all like this, certainly not so much that memes have been made. Oh...

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  • ISTJs pay A LOT of attention to small details which I –as an INTJ– find utterly meaningless.
  • They’re also quite traditional whereas INTJs tend to have unconventional ideas / interests.
  • Their perspectives are based on empirical facts, evidence and experience. Ours are conditioned by theoretical insight, extrapolation, intuition or analytical forecasting.
  • They follow the rules for their own sake. We bend them or reinterpret them.
  • They rely on micromanaging whereas INTJs are often found strategizing.
 
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