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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am one person who hasn't always like the idea of going up the ladder in certain settings. It's kind of an image thing for me...and kind of an awkwardness thing too. I've just never really pictured myself working somewhere where I'd wear a suit and tie and look all clean all the time(or rather being fashionable and etc). I am not a great shaver or anything, and it's just not something I actively try to focus on. I am a little more comfortable with some of these things, but there's still not a lot of confidence either.

I guess...The idea of being an authority or knowing how to tackle problems with other people is still a challenge for me to gracefully stand up to. Even though I can kind of hide my anxiety at times or even seem positive to others (when inside I am anything but). But, still, I am awful at talking about myself with numbers and achievements. These are just things not on my mind or how I usually think about things. Usually, I just want to get things done...even if it's not the most gracefully done...lol. Most of what I focus on is if the person seems to be satisfied with what was done and myself as well in the exchange. I don't ask for detailed feedback or offer further recommendations and follow up.

Just a couple thoughts here...maybe I could be doing more, but I am not sure what and how to work on it atm. Though, there may be a more leadership role in the future for me, so I am kind of thinking about it now a bit. What do you think? Are you a natural at it? LOL Or a little doubtful...it's funny, I was so negative in college...I just was pessimistic that my education would actually lead to a good standing job(I wanted to drop out, but I didn't...)...there was so much pressure i put on myself and guilt.
 

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As a child, being raised by parents in medicine and education, I tended to see "moving up the ladder" not in terms of gaining managerial leadership but instead as gaining expertise - more degrees, more specialization, more seniority. As it turned out, in my jobs, I have done more managerial movement "up the ladder" - being responsible for more outcomes, more money, and/or more people. It has come unintentionally... I have a tendency to take on more responsibilities out of desire to do my job well, to help people, and to improve the work system... so I seem to end up being sought out for leadership. But it is a double-edged sword. On one hand, I like the affirmations and opportunities... on the other, I end up accidentally appearing to be a good candidate for positions I am not interested in and/or don't enjoy, and if/when I leave, I let people down. (Arguably, I get too emotionally attached to my coworkers and supervisors and care too much about their feelings. My husband reminds me: it's a job!) Overall, I seem to gleefully leap off the ladder more often than I feel unable to climb. The w7 in me, perhaps. Again, it's a double-edged sword.

So, this issue is something that I am pensive about as well. One question that sticks with me is do you like the tasks and responsibilities associated with moving "up the ladder" at your job? In my experience, when you move up in terms of management or administration, your job becomes very much about "deliverables" - objective numbers and other external markers of success. As an aesthetic and people-oriented person, I tend to care a lot more about "soft" factors that are hard to measure, even though I have the ability to be reasonably successful by the numbers. And when it comes to my own life energy... the soft factors are what give me drive and passion and enjoyment at work. What I have been recently considering personally is that I think an ideal job for me would have a "mid" level of responsibility - enough that I am engaged in leadership and have some sway, but not so much that I am constantly having to make decisions for others and be held accountable for so many results. I think I will pursue grad school so as to hopefully strike a balance between a little bit of specialization and a little bit of leadership. So I can stop midway up the ladder!

As for image... I, too, am not a business formal person, but I think getting a little clean and presentable actually improves how I do at my job. Rest assured, you can usually make any dress code work for you. It just takes a little time and tweaking... start out "by the book" and adjust accordingly. Most of the time, save for health/safety concerns, dress code is a "spirit of the law" thing - it's about looking professional and approachable. (I've been wearing a small "forbidden" 3rd earring forever and no one has blinked an eye.) And the people who care about fashion, care about fashion, and those that don't, don't... even in a suit environment there are those who get the super stylish tailored suits and those that wear cheap, poorly-fitting ones. Ultimately people are going to care more about how well you do your job than what your beard looks like, as long as it's not straight out of Duck Dynasty. :)

I'm glad for you having the opportunity for a leadership role. Can you talk more about your job, so we understand what kind of leadership role you may be considered for soon? In general, my advice would be to be honest, to be supportive and encouraging of others, and to be solution-focused. And do share your successes! It's not about being over-confident but about recognizing your own good work when you see it. Other people aren't always going to see it unless you point it out. And if you have a problem with someone who works with or under you, try to see them as an ally in solving the issue. If you are employed for the same company, you will be sharing at least some goals - use those shared goals to create an endgame that you can work towards together.

Finally, you said "usually, I just want to get things done" - that's a good quality in a leader. Being overly fastidious slows things down and doesn't allow for the people you supervise to utilize their individual strengths. Recognizing when you've done well and knowing when to move on is a good quality, too. Getting hung up on things for too long isn't productive. So I think your self-assessment is on target: it sounds like you have the qualities to move up. Now you just need the drive to chase it and do your best at it. I think you should go for it, just to have the experience. Find out if it's something you like or not. If not, it's usually very easy to step back down, and your salary will have improved as a result.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm glad for you having the opportunity for a leadership role. Can you talk more about your job, so we understand what kind of leadership role you may be considered for soon? In general, my advice would be to be honest, to be supportive and encouraging of others, and to be solution-focused. And do share your successes! It's not about being over-confident but about recognizing your own good work when you see it. Other people aren't always going to see it unless you point it out. And if you have a problem with someone who works with or under you, try to see them as an ally in solving the issue. If you are employed for the same company, you will be sharing at least some goals - use those shared goals to create an endgame that you can work towards together.
Thanks! To be honest, I still feel a bit funny about my job. Like I should be doing more or I wonder if it actually matters to people(like when people ask "what do you do?" or they'd be belittling about my career). So, that's still a huge psychological internal dialogue problem, but I actually don't want to associate with people like that as much either to be honest and/or I definitely need to find a balance with the self-talk and etc. Even with the promotion potentially coming, but it does seem like a natural progression at least. I actually feel like I can perform a lot of the job duties (definitely some small things I could work on for sure). It doesn't seem to be that bad with a leap of faith so to speak. At times, I think I could do as well as some of the employees in the positions now (not always, but occasionally). I've been working quite consistently for awhile there full time for more than a year. I would be kind of an authority with duties to delegate to other employees and also to interact with customers with decisions on matters. The dress code would change a bit too. Nothing too significant, but it will take a bit more effort. I think people will see me a lot differently and I may be expected to be more knowledgeable based on this though. I'll have to work on more projects at once though, but I've been kind of doing that anyways atm most of the time because the department I am in now is a floater in our particular location giving breaks to other departments and working on our department at the same time. Yelp.

Yes, sharing your successes is really important, and it's something I've struggled with quite a bit. Working in the same place has kind of helped with that and made it possible for more because my co-workers have reminded me at times of some of the gains I have made or have provided to the workplace. It's too easy to forget about it in a face-paced environment. At times, I am able to share them with others though. Sometimes some of the things that I feel are really bad aren't frowned down upon as much as I think too. Sometimes it can become a little joke and remind me and/or others of blunders just happening at times. Thankfully at times, people remind me of that as well. I usually try to work with people as much as I can instead of antagonizing. This is definitely something to work on though, how to deal with others gossip or pointing a finger.
 

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I agree with Angelfish. I would consider the promotion if anything because it will be a great learning experience. I think most people would be nervous taking a management position for the first time, but you could also see it as a wonderful opportunity to really grow and enhance your work place. A great boss really is a treasure and it can be really motivating to employess to have that. It is an opportunity to help your customers and those you are working with. People skills are incredibly important. This job will make them better.

Talking about yourself and your accomplishments can be weird. But in the working world everyone has to do it. There is a lot out there about personal branding, elevator speeches, how to ace an interview, etc.. So, I would keep that in mind. Actually I think a lot of figuring that stuff out could be really helpful, so you can see where you fit in the working world and it may help you with making career choices.

Since, you asked, what are some things that keep you from climbing the ladder, here is what I have noticed (Disclaimer: I have only served as a grunt in the working world, so here are qualities I have seen in managers that can sour your relationship with employees)

They don't care about the work you are doing

They don't care about the employees

They are almost non existent as a manager, employees can feel like they have been left on their own

Micromanaging

Very negative, always complaining about other employees, the organization, etc... Some bitching is okay and probably expected, but your positive energy and determination can be contagious to those around you, just like your negativity

Flipping out at work. I had a supervisor do this fairly recently at my current job. Before that I had viewed her as a competent leader, but after she lost it, especially about something that was actually her responsibility but blamed staff for it.

Competence is important, as I am sure you have worked for bosses who didn't have a handle on things for one reason or another.

Good luck!
 

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A strong and coherent set of personal values and morals is one of the things that will 'stop you from going up the ladder' if you operate in a corporate structure.

However, if you possess the power to rationalise the morally indigestible you are capable of effectively neutralising even your own morality and then no ladder is too high to be conquered!
 

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It's the offseason. Hard to get points when no games are being played until next summer.

 
Corporate anything is my own version of hell, so I have no desire to ever get caught up in any sort of ladder unrelated to sports.
 

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A strong and coherent set of personal values and morals is one of the things that will 'stop you from going up the ladder' if you operate in a corporate structure.

However, if you possess the power to rationalise the morally indigestible you are capable of effectively neutralising even your own morality and then no ladder is too high to be conquered!
Well I think you pretty much stated the reason I'm not going very far up the ladder. Oh those pesky morals...
 

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I don't bullshit, and I'm not a "diversity hire". Bullshitting itself wouldn't get me around recruiting shit now, I don't think, though. I'd need a racket backing me up to deal with the rackets in my way. Mostly, I don't have some random childhood connection to nepotize on, so I can't bypass the local non-local/VISA bias. No one at my uni is or would be useful, so that's not ever really an issue were I an extrovert and fine being sleazy. If I had money and a car, I'd be gone already, but Mother pissed away all the money she ever made, while whining about being poor, and GAVE AWAY the truck, just before I transferred to uni, which I was driving to college, to the shithole church which she already gave a chunk of my youth to in their indoctrination daycare they dared to call education.

So again, I need to've not been born where and under whom I was. Anything else is either icing or a direct consequent, causally not exactly logically. There are no rungs here. The ones that used to exist were broken or guarded by family then removed by the government racket, including now some insular, deluded hipster trash and their wannabes.
 

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Laziness and being to perfect ain't good.

It's like everyone is so imperfect and you will be like a special snowflake
 

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A strong and coherent set of personal values and morals is one of the things that will 'stop you from going up the ladder' if you operate in a corporate structure.

However, if you possess the power to rationalise the morally indigestible you are capable of effectively neutralising even your own morality and then no ladder is too high to be conquered!
Bahaha! This one has figured it out.

What stops me is having no faith that climbing the ladder will actually improve anything for myself or others. I would rather stop participating in laddering and do my own thing that I can actually believe in. I know how to make things work, I know how to grease the wheels, I know how to lead. It doesn't matter if there is nothing to be gained from doing so. Fighting the system from within rarely works out.
 

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A strong and coherent set of personal values and morals is one of the things that will 'stop you from going up the ladder' if you operate in a corporate structure.

However, if you possess the power to rationalise the morally indigestible you are capable of effectively neutralising even your own morality and then no ladder is too high to be conquered!
Certainly this is true for some, but there are others who have strong morals and climb, nevertheless. They seem to be natural leaders of people, movers and shakers, people who talk directly and act quickly and feel confident making decisions that affect others. Of course they are not perfect but I have been heartened to watch their kindness and fairness in action. They are advocates of their own business success but they do not seek to bring others down. They seek effective partnerships and mutual gain. They seek to be the rising tide that lifts all boats.

Personally I still believe in a system of checks and balances and government regulation of industry. And I believe that humans need to check themselves both internally and through creating external structures to ensure that we do not take advantage of our own privileges. Still - the ladder is not inherently evil. It is always a matter of human choice. And ultimately each "rung" is a level made and sustained by humans. There is always an ethical way to climb if that is what you so desire. I think part of the problem is many people find they enjoy the climb and the perks but not the responsibility or the loneliness at the top - so they attempt to retain their position and its benefits without continuing to give of themself as they should.
 

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Certainly this is true for some, but there are others who have strong morals and climb, nevertheless. They seem to be natural leaders of people, movers and shakers, people who talk directly and act quickly and feel confident making decisions that affect others. Of course they are not perfect but I have been heartened to watch their kindness and fairness in action. They are advocates of their own business success but they do not seek to bring others down. They seek effective partnerships and mutual gain. They seek to be the rising tide that lifts all boats.

Personally I still believe in a system of checks and balances and government regulation of industry. And I believe that humans need to check themselves both internally and through creating external structures to ensure that we do not take advantage of our own privileges. Still - the ladder is not inherently evil. It is always a matter of human choice. And ultimately each "rung" is a level made and sustained by humans. There is always an ethical way to climb if that is what you so desire. I think part of the problem is many people find they enjoy the climb and the perks but not the responsibility or the loneliness at the top - so they attempt to retain their position and its benefits without continuing to give of themself as they should.
Some good points, angelfish!

Watch out for that sneaky rationalisation though! :ninja: It's a trap, especially for ENTJs.

I may loudly proclaim to seek mutual benefit and even wholeheartedly and sincerely pursue it. But neither passion, nor sincerity in the pursuit of the good are guarantees of ethical action. Unless I am prepared to believe that ends justify means. In my experience, driven leaders such as those your described in your first paragraph have made some pretty serious moral compromises. The most formidable amongst those leaders are usually also those who dare admit it (but after their goals have been achieved or rendered irrelevant in some way):wink:

I love checks and balances, and I like even more your reference to the imperative of checking ourselves internally, in other words, the imperative of reflection on our conduct. Something that busy bees and people of action often avoid. Dread, even!

There isn't always an ethical way to climb, if that is what one desires. To believe the opposite is to exaggerate the power of will, let alone of desire. As formidable as the force of will can be, it is not the only force of such power at work in the world.

As for the last point, yes, perhaps it would be better if more of those who reach the top of the proverbial ladder and those who aspire to climb it, were driven by a sense of responsibility and of personal service (or sacrifice, even!). Perhaps. But then again, there remains that ends and means issue...
One might be conscious of and driven by such responsibility to others, in climbing the ladder. That is still far from a guarantee of ethical action.

But it sure makes for pretty good and noble-sounding rationalisations!
 

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Don't have the education.
Don't have the right acquaintances.
Minor intellectual deficiencies.
I'm not a good looking human.
I've never been in a corporate setting that allowed for 'ladder climbing', infact, I'm sure those settings are VERY rare overall.

All places I've worked at have a policy of announcing higher positions to the "work market". What can be found in the market that can't be found inhouse? Experience. The risk of using inexperienced inhouse personnel for higher positions is too high for many workplaces.
 

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give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for alifetime”; that proverb helped me a lot when I would get annoyed with people. Still working on sensitivity though.
Hmm, I'm stuck between "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow." and "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." I just need better/worse associates, and I'm pretty sure sensitivity isn't the key there.
 

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I enjoy my work. I'm good at it. They pay me enough. I'm kind of lazy. Not in that order.

After working as a software engineer for 10 years, I still can't believe how much they're paying me for the amount of enjoyment I'm getting. I was told that work is supposed to be miserable by many people. "It builds character" is their justification. But, my work is so effortless and fun. I'm afraid that if I move up the ladder I'd have to give up doing the things that I enjoy. Part of me want to move up to contribute more, and I know how to solve some of the bigger problems in the company that I'm currently not in the position to fix. But, another part of me realize that it's all about enjoying the work that I do.
 

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Some good points, angelfish!

Watch out for that sneaky rationalisation though! :ninja: It's a trap, especially for ENTJs.

I may loudly proclaim to seek mutual benefit and even wholeheartedly and sincerely pursue it. But neither passion, nor sincerity in the pursuit of the good are guarantees of ethical action. Unless I am prepared to believe that ends justify means. In my experience, driven leaders such as those your described in your first paragraph have made some pretty serious moral compromises. The most formidable amongst those leaders are usually also those who dare admit it (but after their goals have been achieved or rendered irrelevant in some way):wink:

I love checks and balances, and I like even more your reference to the imperative of checking ourselves internally, in other words, the imperative of reflection on our conduct. Something that busy bees and people of action often avoid. Dread, even!

There isn't always an ethical way to climb, if that is what one desires. To believe the opposite is to exaggerate the power of will, let alone of desire. As formidable as the force of will can be, it is not the only force of such power at work in the world.

As for the last point, yes, perhaps it would be better if more of those who reach the top of the proverbial ladder and those who aspire to climb it, were driven by a sense of responsibility and of personal service (or sacrifice, even!). Perhaps. But then again, there remains that ends and means issue...
One might be conscious of and driven by such responsibility to others, in climbing the ladder. That is still far from a guarantee of ethical action.

But it sure makes for pretty good and noble-sounding rationalisations!
yeah no doubt with cutting corners, I once read that 10% of CEOs in America are functionally psychopathic. Like how you illustrated that it’s more important to pull someone up, rather than break them down. I find that both astounding and curagious at the same time. Best of luck man on your future goals, I have faith you’ll be able to obtain them one day.
 

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My curse of "always have to have a glorious purpose". Also being competitive with cutthroat people is exhausting and soul draining.
 
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