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Discussion Starter #1
What do you think about this? Do you identify with it?

"Potential Problem Areas

May feel intense anger towards people who criticise them or try to control them, but will be unable to express the anger. Left unexpressed, the anger may fester, simmer, and become destructive.

May develop strong negative judgments that are difficut to unseat against people who they perceive have been oppressive to them.

Anger can be a problem for anybody, but may be especially so for ENFPs who have not sufficiently developed their Introverted Feeling. The desire to keep everything non-judgmental, combined with the tendency to use Introverted Feeling as justification rather than true judgement is a recipe for suppressed anger. These are very contradictory forces. "I hate you for judging me" is an ironic feeling, but is unfortunately common. The inability to apply judgment, or to accept negative judgment, makes it difficult for the ENFP to express anger, as anger often comes with negative judgment in tow. Therefore, the ENFP stews in their anger, rather than dealing with it."


Source: ENFP Personal Growth
 

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Couldn't have been phrased in a more relatable way. Sometimes I just want to hit someone and scream at them but most of the time I can't. Because it's wrong and because if I let out my anger there's my loss of control of becoming someone I don't want to be. I have this little childish thought like I need to be the bigger man in this situation.

So I let it stew. I get hurt I'll likely close off, shut up, retreat and think about how I have to deal with these feelings. So I have a million confrontations with this person without opening my mouth until eventually I'll find one that I can settle with and then I'll just sit on it and never say it, almost as if working out how to talk about it was all the battle I needed in order to solve it. But the person in question still doesn't understand my feelings and mistakes will be repeated and anger becomes resentment and I think I just need to have patience and things will sort themselves out, just you wait and see... Of course they don't. There will be moments when I let my anger out but it's too late, it's just raw emotion and doesn't help anyone... but because I act that way I ignore the feeling because I need to control it.
 

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100% spot-on correct. But why do you want to know? If you have a relationship with a ENFP and they are shutting off then you’ll have to prove you are willing to listen and also change so that your ENFP can express what is going on. It must be something big or consistent I would imagine. If someone is trying to control me I would not tolerate that for long.
 

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I don't agree with this anymore. When I was younger I was like this, but nowadays I keep a strict handle on myself in terms of making sure that I am using the lessons I've learnt in terms of either:
- negative feedback can be useful, in any shape or form, don't be so arrogant as to dismiss instantly
- if it is not good feedback/judgement, then I am always free to ignore it and shrug it off..

This is why I need to shape my life/career in a direction of autonomy and freedom of personal choice- sometimes you are putting your luck in these terms up to luck and fate if you aren't actively steering yourself toward autonomy, at least that's how I see my own path.
 

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What do you think about this? Do you identify with it?

"Potential Problem Areas

May feel intense anger towards people who criticise them or try to control them, but will be unable to express the anger. Left unexpressed, the anger may fester, simmer, and become destructive.

May develop strong negative judgments that are difficut to unseat against people who they perceive have been oppressive to them.

Anger can be a problem for anybody, but may be especially so for ENFPs who have not sufficiently developed their Introverted Feeling. The desire to keep everything non-judgmental, combined with the tendency to use Introverted Feeling as justification rather than true judgement is a recipe for suppressed anger. These are very contradictory forces. "I hate you for judging me" is an ironic feeling, but is unfortunately common. The inability to apply judgment, or to accept negative judgment, makes it difficult for the ENFP to express anger, as anger often comes with negative judgment in tow. Therefore, the ENFP stews in their anger, rather than dealing with it."


Source: ENFP Personal Growth
I actually try to address my anger very quickly and not sweep it under the rug for that very reason. I find when in situations where I stew my Ne can take me down a path of spiral negativity. My husband always knows not to let me sit. I'm not one of those people that needs to walk to let off steam. If I go on a walk, all I do is get more and more angry the longer I don't address it with the individual. If someone addresses their issue quickly with me I could get to the bottom of the miscommunication but if I stew it's bad. A situation were my Fi is weak would lead to more assumptions but I feel letting me sit is directly related to my fast Ne brain. This internal feeling doubt can tear me apart more than another individual can. A person could rub me the wrong way if they hit an area I already doubt with in my own internal struggle.

I have learned over time how to control it but I rarely get angry at situations that are out of my control. I have a very positive thinking brain so I normally can see the silver lining in most situations and I rarely have that moment of "crying over spilled milk."

I also enjoy negative feedback regarding my art as long as it is constructive feedback. Someone saying "that sucks," might irk me but the feeling normally does not last because I might eventually feel sorry for them in lacking intelligence to convey why it sucks. For me to react strongly with anger I normally need to love or respect the individual.
 

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I am not sure of your type and was wondering if there was a deeper reason for your question. I looked at your board and it looks like you are just trying to understand different types, correct? There isn’t any ENFP you are going to go home to and say, “This web-site says you have poor judgement in your anger.” Am I correct? Because if so, you would need to show that you care about your ENFP in a “I will change for you if you need me to,” way. Is there anyone I need to protect here? Lol!
You ask also about experiences with anger. They are right about the deep-rooted negative association forming. They are also right about anger expression being a growth thing. I wonder if all of us ENFPs have our victory stories about learning to express our anger. For me in my current family relationships I go ahead and express right away. I don’t have to hold back and stew because the people I’m with are not controlling and care about me enough to change if they need to. (I’m even out from under my controlling ESTJ boss now). If people do not CARE about my feelings or thoughts or facts and I have tried to talk about the problem already but if I find there is no use talking to them because they don’t care and if this is true and it happens consistently or if they are controlling then I had better flee those relationships as fast as my feet can carry me. It just sets up an abuse cycle and I care too much about me now to tolerate it. This last year I’ve actually gone to HR about that ESTJ for the first time in my life— usually I would never complain or even tattle. So I’m learning at age 41 to stand up for myself. Also to forgive and feel positive about these people who don’t care— it’s rough. The worst one is with my ESTJ in-law and notice that the association set me up for the ESTJ boss. The deep negative association is there. I work on this too— I don’t want this association. And there are some good ESTJs out there.
 

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I wish I has success stories like others where expressing my anger has ever lead to something good.

I swear when I'm angry my IQ flies out the window too so I can't even form strong enough arguments. I guess it's mostly a poor use of Fi I'm coming to realise. I don't truly understand why I believe things to be wrong until I can think things over... So, perhaps that's why other ENFPs here can address the issues head on. How do you even get in touch with something like that? I never used to think that my Fi is 'weak', this feels like a recent development.

The responses to my anger recently have always been redirected at me. Fine, I guess I messed up too but my issues don't get solved.

Funny thing I wrote the first post straight after a clash with the partner. So I was already in the middle of getting space to cool off. Confronting my partner only ends up with two egos butting heads. So whilst there's no point in festering there's no point in letting it out either. Must be that magic middle ground that you can unlock.
 

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My anger never lasts long. It fades within a few hours, unless someone / an animal was truly hurt.

I don't take personal comments that... well, personally. I don't hold grudges. And half the time I soon forget what upset me. The only things that stick are 'repeat' offenses -- like the same person being late every single time we meet up for lunch.
 

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@Falling Foxes I relate and with my mother in law I was constantly reading stuff on “How to talk to T functions” and still. Well, I will burden you with an example. When we got married they would not take us on vacations with the rest of the family because (rule made up on the spot). “We don’t take our married children on vacations.” Now this is fine by me, but for my husband vacations were extremely important to him and his relationship with his dad who only relaxes and is tolerable while on vacation. Well when the other kids got married they broke this rule right away and have taken everyone but us on several vacations. Hurting my husband horribly who is not even in half the family pictures anymore. I decided to talk to them.
Me: “Sean feels unloved because he hasn’t been included in so many family vacations.”
Their answer, “That’s not logical. We are sure he had to work. We have taken him on many vacations.”
Me: Yes but he hasn’t gotten to go with you lately and I’m asking you to reach out to him and let him know he is loved. Look, I’m not asking that you take him on a vacation. He feels like you guys don’t care.
Them: But that is illogical.
Me: But he FEELs that way, so please reach out to him.
Them: role eyes, shakes head at me.

I expressed. I did my part. I think they only will decide to “deal with problems” if things are yelled (I watch one of my sisters in law get some attention to her feelings with some meltdowns) and to me that would be abusive and make me feel like a child if I had to throw a tantrum. Of course his parents also throw tantrums if their feelings are involved.
Anyway, I don’t have to deal with it anymore and I suppose in a world where feelings don’t matter in the least that they can’t be bothered and/ or forced by me to take a minute to let their son know he matters. This is insanity to me, obviously. I will stop myself right here, but I thought maybe someone would appreciate an example. To show how difficult it can sometimes be.

And maybe @angelcat has some ideas since she works at things with her ENTP.

Peace everyone... husband and I and Kids are all okay right now..... lol
 
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And maybe @angelcat has some ideas since she works at things with her ENTP.
On some level, I've accepted that some of the thinkers in my life aren't going to ever respond to emotional appeals and/or provide what the feelers in my life "need." In those instances, it's better to negotiate and/or structure the question in a way that gets you what you want rather than talk about feelings.

I dunno, would something like this work with the parents involved?

"Sean and I want to go on vacation with you. Where shall we go and when?"

Dr. Phil says everything in life is a negotiation; the question is whether you realize that or not.

If you have a need not being met, you have to negotiate it -- I will do this, if you will do that. If Sean needs this, what are you willing to trade to get it for him? How can both parties benefit by participating?

I realize this sounds cold, especially to a feeler (why should I HAVE to negotiate? why can't they just CARE about his feelings?) but... thinkers think in this way, and you have to appeal to a thinker in a language they can understand.

So, decide what you want in advance out of a situation and go into it with that objective in mind, knowing also what you're willing to 'give up' to get it.

Ti/Fe's can be persuaded sometimes to do things just for you because it would be being "kind" but TeFi's have to see the worth of what they are doing; and if they're unhealthy and/or selfish people, either one can be a pain to deal with -- but I've found out being emotional pretty much doesn't work. You have to figure out what they want and offer it to them, in exchange for what YOU want.
 

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@Alesha I think @angelcat has a good approach. An emotional exchange or plea is unlikely to work unless that is something that they have decided to work on. I had to learn that regardless of how I meant something, how it was received was important to consider if the relationship was important to me. I could say something that was completely true and fair, and actually pretty harmless, but if a person had a personal history with an issue it could hurt them (or even if it was just a sensitive subject in general), and if you care about someone you should care if your words hurt them. I know this seems really elementary to Feelers, but to a Thinker this is a concept you have to work at to both discover and consider in your interactions with people, especially since it doesn't usually happen to us too much and we are focused on content vs. effect.

So, I would consider two options. The first which was mentioned just saying, "We have these times available and are excited to go on vacation together. Which would work best?" Or, even take the lead on the planning and just fold everyone else into the vacation so that you have a lot of control over everything. Secondly, if the goal is for your husband and his dad to have quality time together (and perhaps the mother-in-law is the problem), try at first to just remove her from the situation entirely. There may be factors you just aren't aware of. Have your husband plan just a father/son vacation, even if it is just a long weekend or something. They will get this quality time and maybe can have an honest conversation about what has been going on without all the interference.

I know it is hard, but try and leave emotional justification out of it - ignore it completely. That will make it easiest to get what you want. If there is an excuse "We don't have that week free," you just say "Oh, luckily we have this other week free", and then if they say, "We don't have time to plan a vacation," you can say "We are happy to do that," or "We don't have the money," try "We found a really fun AirBNB cabin near you that should be a lot of fun for everyone." Just wear them down with positive rebuttals to their excuses.

Good luck!
 

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I do associate anger with negativity and I am not wrong. Before my fi fully develop I would hold things in and have scary angry outburst- rare but when it occurs it's horrible and anger doesn't sit well with me, my emotions don't come and go - it takes a while for me to regain back to my normal self - and with inferior Si reminding the situation my mind can get pretty messed up.
After 19, I found out through years of introspection ( no clue why I'm so dumb most people figure this out as a kid) but I learned that I refuse to listen or take advice at any9ne who is angry or yelling at me.Then it came to my realization that no point can get across unless both parties are willing to listen. From then on - if I ever have a problem leading to anger or arguments I would take some alone time ( even if it means walking out on the person I'm angry with out of nowhere) . I would then go for a run or walk - analyze the situation- and once it's settle - if i feel that it's something irrational then I can easily drop the topic if it still bothers me - I'll talk to the other individual in a calm manner. My point gets across .
It's ok to be angry for justice , when feel mistreated- however there are many peaceful way to tackle and handle it - I found a way to



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Hm. I dunno that I agree with the way "logical" and "illogical" are used here.

Because I mean ... I'm as stereotypically (S)T as it gets, right? Like, it's probably usually less awkward to hug a cactus for comfort than me, and I'm just as likely to wash your car as to sit down and have a talk about everything to show you I care.

But regardless of that, if someone I care about comes up and asks for something, I'll try my best to be understanding and accepting, because that is meant with "caring" to begin with. It may be entirely inadequate to you, because I just can't do any better, and it might need a verbal knock on the head, because I'll miss everything else, but I'll try. And regardless of the reasoning too. Sure, there are ways to convince me that work better than others (and I'll happily accept a deal any time, that's a nice suggestion @angelcat), but in the end, it all goes back to caring. I don't have to understand. It's enough that's it's really important to you.

And that's only illogical if you look at it without context. The number of things I've done over the years for family and others that made me roll my eyes is probably sky-high, but looking at whole picture, how was it not always perfectly logical? Your well-being is relevant. You want X. Hence X is relevant. And conversely, I may want Y in the future that you don't. Doing X now increases my chances of getting Y later.

All of which is to say, it kinda makes me scratch my head to see this issue. I can't imagine I'm that particular. (I hope.) But so I can only suppose that in the case of @Alesha if "He feels like you guys don’t care." doesn't work, nothing else would have either. I adore logic as much as the next person, but wtf @ responding "But that's illogical". Srsly :|
 

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Hm. I dunno that I agree with the way "logical" and "illogical" are used here.

Because I mean ... I'm as stereotypically (S)T as it gets, right? Like, it's probably usually less awkward to hug a cactus for comfort than me, and I'm just as likely to wash your car as to sit down and have a talk about everything to show you I care.

But regardless of that, if someone I care about comes up and asks for something, I'll try my best to be understanding and accepting, because that is meant with "caring" to begin with. It may be entirely inadequate to you, because I just can't do any better, and it might need a verbal knock on the head, because I'll miss everything else, but I'll try. And regardless of the reasoning too. Sure, there are ways to convince me that work better than others (and I'll happily accept a deal any time, that's a nice suggestion @angelcat), but in the end, it all goes back to caring. I don't have to understand. It's enough that's it's really important to you.

And that's only illogical if you look at it without context. The number of things I've done over the years for family and others that made me roll my eyes is probably sky-high, but looking at whole picture, how was it not always perfectly logical? Your well-being is relevant. You want X. Hence X is relevant. And conversely, I may want Y in the future that you don't. Doing X now increases my chances of getting Y later.

All of which is to say, it kinda makes me scratch my head to see this issue. I can't imagine I'm that particular. (I hope.) But so I can only suppose that in the case of @Alesha if "He feels like you guys don’t care." doesn't work, nothing else would have either. I adore logic as much as the next person, but wtf @ responding "But that's illogical". Srsly :|
I've seen a similar conversation as Alesha described happen. No one with me explicitly says "that's illogical" or "that's stupid" (well sometimes) but it's often how intuitive feelers might read it (you know how we line to read between the lines of someone's behaviour). Our feelings hold so much weight to them that it's pretty demeaning to have them ignored or treated frivolously.

The things which I've had with my Ti user often ends up with something like "but why? What's the cause of these feelings? If I can't see the cause how am I supposed to adapt?" If there's no solution that I can offer to my hurt feelings then he doesn't know how to simply be more considerate. It's difficult for me to break down my feelings and provide rules for him to adapt to because often there aren't any 'one rule fits all' solution and I need him to engage his empathy so that he can fluently change from situation to situation to consider my feelings but that's hard for him. It's like asking him to learn another language.

If I can't provide solutions or reasons then he fails to see what my point was or get frustrated and think since there's nothing he can do there's no real importance getting stressed over it. I interpret that attitude as him seeing my opinions as stupid.
 

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That, actually, makes complete sense.

Yeah, knowing the cause is pretty much needed to prevent the situation from happening again. As I'm flying blind, the factual cause is the only guideline I have, and if I don't, that's tough. Couple with gauging my own feelings which I consider perfectly irrelevant to the matter at hand (just because I feel that's stupid, doesn't mean I think that's stupid), and I see this entirely.

So, huh. That was quite insightful, thanks. Food for thought.
 

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That statement was extremely accurate. I usually repress my anger, and only express it via listening to/playing music (hard rawk) and snarky comments. And I do hate criticism, even when it's warranted; usually my initial reaction is to get upset, but afterwards I *might* accept it. Maybe...
 

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I've seen a similar conversation as Alesha described happen. No one with me explicitly says "that's illogical" or "that's stupid" (well sometimes) but it's often how intuitive feelers might read it (you know how we line to read between the lines of someone's behaviour). Our feelings hold so much weight to them that it's pretty demeaning to have them ignored or treated frivolously.

The things which I've had with my Ti user often ends up with something like "but why? What's the cause of these feelings? If I can't see the cause how am I supposed to adapt?" If there's no solution that I can offer to my hurt feelings then he doesn't know how to simply be more considerate. It's difficult for me to break down my feelings and provide rules for him to adapt to because often there aren't any 'one rule fits all' solution and I need him to engage his empathy so that he can fluently change from situation to situation to consider my feelings but that's hard for him. It's like asking him to learn another language.

If I can't provide solutions or reasons then he fails to see what my point was or get frustrated and think since there's nothing he can do there's no real importance getting stressed over it. I interpret that attitude as him seeing my opinions as stupid.
So since we are working through my example somewhat and it has seemed helpful to others I will continue too. Did anyone notice that my in-laws did not admit to any fault in taking their other married children on vacations? They made up a stupid excuse about "We were sure Sean had to work." When I have seen them bend over backwards to arrange trips around Sean's siblings's' schedules. There are definitely THINGS my in-laws could do. There is definitely a logic behind the hurt feelings. The logic behind Sean's hurt is that they are not treating their kids fairly. Okay, thinkers, I'm very much hoping to hear from you guys. I already like what you've said already.
I have to admit this is part of the ENFP and INFP problem. We don't want to "out" them on their lack of logic or their lack of fairness. It would seem horribly rude to me to point out how unfairly they have been treating my husband-- rude and also hurtful to ourselves.
It admits that the in-laws have extremely negative emotions about us. See, look, I know WHY they don't want to go on vacations with us and they don't want to ask about my husband's schedule or plan around it. It would also backfire for me to say something like, "Look, I understand that you don't want to take us on vacations. It's because you don't like ME." Like I don't know... this group is hurtful because they are ILLOGICAL but won't admit it. I don't know what the thinkers here will think of that... and I would absolutely and dearly appreciate your opinions and thoughts on this. These in-laws definitely act in accordance with their own feelings but they won't admit it and I don't think they even acknowledge it or have the capacity to SEE when they are acting unfairly (actually that is me being nice again and making excuses for them. They just won't acknowledge it) and I'm too "nice" and cared (emphasis on the past tense) too much about keeping this relationship up for my husband's sake to just have a "Hey you guys can't stand me and I can't stand you so lets quit trying." No way could I have done that with my husband still trying to hang on to his parents. It's not like I'm not grateful to them for raising him. But a few years after this they hurt my husband too much for even him to put up with it and now I don't have to deal with them anymore.
Okay, thoughts? ENFPs aren't your feelings hurt usually from things you could point out as illogical or unfair? BUT then you also know that the real reason is the thinkers feelings and that's what's actually hurtful? Like they just don't CARE enough or....?
Or not?
Thinkers?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
100% spot-on correct. But why do you want to know? If you have a relationship with a ENFP and they are shutting off then you’ll have to prove you are willing to listen and also change so that your ENFP can express what is going on. It must be something big or consistent I would imagine. If someone is trying to control me I would not tolerate that for long.
I am not sure of your type and was wondering if there was a deeper reason for your question. I looked at your board and it looks like you are just trying to understand different types, correct? There isn’t any ENFP you are going to go home to and say, “This web-site says you have poor judgement in your anger.” Am I correct? Because if so, you would need to show that you care about your ENFP in a “I will change for you if you need me to,” way. Is there anyone I need to protect here? Lol!
Your curiosity and reading into my post is kind of funny. The ENFP in my life is someone who I admire and respect. I do not see this area of improvement as 'poor judgment' or inferior to me.

In response to your posts about your in-laws.... If you've already done all that you could, maybe it's time to simply accept the situation as it is. You know they are in the wrong, and the only way for things to get better is if they change. Since they don't want to change, things are not going to get better anytime soon. For the sake of inner happiness, lower your expectations of them. If they don't want it, it's their loss. This is an xxTJ approach, and sometimes you just gotta give them back what they gave you.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Relatable. I've started to train and force myself to express my anger more though. But in a controlled way. I view people in a much better way after I started focusing on that.
How?

There will be moments when I let my anger out but it's too late, it's just raw emotion and doesn't help anyone... but because I act that way I ignore the feeling because I need to control it.
Have you ever lashed out at the wrong people?
I may be wrong, but I thought blowing up due to anger was an Fi issue. I've known IxFPs to blow up. Even though I'm the opposite of ENFP, I can relate to my original post. I let things stew until it blows up like a volcano (if it gets there). And I struggle to express negative emotions.


I swear when I'm angry my IQ flies out the window too so I can't even form strong enough arguments. I guess it's mostly a poor use of Fi I'm coming to realise. I don't truly understand why I believe things to be wrong until I can think things over... So, perhaps that's why other ENFPs here can address the issues head on. How do you even get in touch with something like that? I never used to think that my Fi is 'weak', this feels like a recent development.
Is this something that occurs only between you and your partner? Or have you also experienced this with others?
I relate to the bolded. Is this a problem with all Fi users? I mean, not knowing where the line is until it's crossed and also being able to verbalize what exactly went wrong in that exact moment. I also want to know how one can get more in touch with Fi.
 
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