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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wondering how every types’ subconscious “Shadow Cognitive Functions” (#5-8) manifests itself in making life difficult for each of the 16 types? Or what’s your experience with them? Do you know blind spots, other weaknesses and things that trigger you more easily due to you shadow cognitive functions?
 

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If I understand it correctly:

Ne: getting overwhelmed/annoyed with having too many meaningless options/perspectives/possibilities, although I am pretty good at following the ones I want to pursue if I say so myself.
Si: not being able to respond to inner sensations, or maintaining a healthy routine (think this is weak Si + weak thinking). Also this is supposed to relate to bad past experiences, but I'm not too sure...
Fi: actually I don't care, I forget what MBTI Fi is supposed to do from the description this is supposed to be the passive-aggressive voice when ENFJ puts the needs of everyone else over their own but doesn't everyone feel that way every once in a while.
Te: I feel like I can be on top of things if I want to be but cannot do it when I'm not fully committed.
 

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INTJ 5w6 Sp/Sx 593
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INTJ

Ni: Categories unrelated information into a single framework or motivation.
Te: Categorizes my time, and creates the quickest method to get things done.
Fi: Strong moral code. Usually simplistic in nature, but hard to stray away from.
Se: Hard time distinguishing the activity itself from the "meaning" behind it.
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Ne: Paranoid about the intentions of others. Makes it hard to trust many people. Can jump to conclusions about people's intentions.
Ti: Unsure about my own conclusions/ Question my own intelligence. As such, I have to constantly have to re-verify my beliefs.
Fe: Unaware of social cues. Can appear to be oblivious if not accustomed to social etiquette.
Si: I can have a vengeful streak. Poor long-term memory. Memories are "tinged" in a negative light unless reminded.
 

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Shadow functions are all beneficial in John Beebe interpretation. Trickster and Demon functions enable you to shake things up and tell people to fuck off when you've had enough of them.

ESTP

1) Hero: Se
2) Good Parent: Ti
3) Child: Fe
4) Aspiration: Ni
5) Opposition: Si
6) Critical Parent: Te
7) Trickster: Fi
8) Demon: Ne
 

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This extension in form of "Shadow functions" with respect to Jung ideas appears to have limited use to me.
Things that it tries to explain can already be explained in existing terms with just 4 functions and their orientations.

Thinking, for instance, has the same machinery regardless of its orientation.
Tautology in its purest expression either in form of mere representation of fact (when extraverted and free from subjective factor) or in form of theory that represents only itself and is completely detached from reality (when introverted but free from objective factor).

Jung said:
Extraverted thinking, then, comes into existence only when the objective orientation predominates. This fact does nothing to alter the logic of thinking; it merely constitutes that difference between thinkers which James considered a matter of temperament. Orientation to the object, as already explained, makes no essential change in the thinking function; only its appearance is altered.
So, its essentially the same function that can potentially serve whatever purpose, there is no sense in other hidden dark Ti that awakens during my hardest moments and engulfs enemies in metaphysical flames of sophistry.
Unconsciousness just gets Fe after Ti development.

Further development allows individual to enrich his dominant function by missing factor, allowing for Ti-Ne to potentially make same results as Ni-Te, just in different style and with different motivations.


At least that's the point to which I converge at this moment.
It is further supported by the fact that sensing is the only thing i struggled with among function-like constructs, heavily relate to following passage from description of introverted intuitive types :

Jung said:
But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, there should be a complete subordination to inner perceptions, the unconscious goes over to the opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence on the object directly contradicts the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion neurosis with hypochondriacal symptoms, hypersensitivity of the sense organs, and compulsive ties to particular persons or objects.
 

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I don't think shadow functions exist, only perhaps a switch in attitude depending on the situation. For example, introversion is the defensive attitude, so it can get triggered in a defensive situation if it can't be dealt with extraversion first, for me as an extravert.

@Allostasis
there's no default stack of TiNe and NiTe in Jungian theory anyways
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Shadow functions are all beneficial in John Beebe interpretation. Trickster and Demon functions enable you to shake things up and tell people to fuck off when you've had enough of them.

ESTP

1) Hero: Se
2) Good Parent: Ti
3) Child: Fe
4) Aspiration: Ni
5) Opposition: Si
6) Critical Parent: Te
7) Trickster: Fi
8) Demon: Ne
The shadow functions have pretty gnarly names!
I could call
5.Hypocrite
6. Critical
7.Blindspot
8.Worst




INTJ

Ni
Te
Fi
Se
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Ne: Paranoid about the intentions of others. Makes it hard to trust many people. Can jump to conclusions about people's intentions.
Ti: Unsure about my own conclusions/ Question my own intelligence. As such, I have to constantly have to re-verify my beliefs.
Fe: Unaware of social cues. Can appear to be oblivious if not accustomed to social etiquette.
Si: I can have a vengeful streak. Poor long-term memory. Memories are "tinged" in a negative light unless reminded.

for INFJ (in my experience)

Ni - Formulating theories, seeing patterns, connections, finding meaning behind meaning.
Fe - Concerned how others feel. Please others even at our own expense. (Then get bitter.)
Ti - Trying to logically make sense of things.
Se - Bad at observing the world, not being in the moment. See reality is being shallow.
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Ne - Wanting others to be open minded, but not open-minded myself. (Actually don't mind brain storming. part of my profession) I only don't like being presented with more options after I've already thought hard and made my decision.
Fi - Quick to see self-love as selfish. We value genuine-people, but perhaps very bad at being "genuine" ourselves and often confused about who we are.
Te - Bad at making our thoughts/ideas reality. Underlying rebelliousness against authority. If we think our authority is dumb and it doesn't make sense (Ti), we want to rebel.
Si - We keep seeing our dumb mistakes in the past. Find it harder to learn from certain mistakes especially when Ni tells us "it should work in theory"





I don't think shadow functions exist, only perhaps a switch in attitude depending on the situation. For example, introversion is the defensive attitude, so it can get triggered in a defensive situation if it can't be dealt with extraversion first, for me as an extravert.
This extension in form of "Shadow functions" with respect to Jung ideas appears to have limited use to me.
Things that it tries to explain can already be explained in existing terms with just 4 functions and their orientations.
So you guys would see the 8 functions more like 4 double sided coins rather than 8 separate? Fair nuff. Whether or not they exist as 8 separate or 4 double sided. We still gotta acknowledge the cognitive functions that are in our official top 4, and that you probably can't function as a normal human without at least all 8.

for INFJ's Te isn't in our top 4, but without it, we wouldn't be able to "look at the facts" even though we can suck at it. I as an INFJ can confirm that I can look at the facts. XD

But I see the INTJs more quick/apt at Te




If I understand it correctly:

Ne: getting overwhelmed/annoyed with having too many meaningless options/perspectives/possibilities, although I am pretty good at following the ones I want to pursue if I say so myself.
Si: not being able to respond to inner sensations, or maintaining a healthy routine (think this is weak Si + weak thinking). Also this is supposed to relate to bad past experiences, but I'm not too sure...
Fi: actually I don't care, I forget what MBTI Fi is supposed to do from the description this is supposed to be the passive-aggressive voice when ENFJ puts the needs of everyone else over their own but doesn't everyone feel that way every once in a while.
Te: I feel like I can be on top of things if I want to be but cannot do it when I'm not fully committed.
The Ne as #5 can be also be seen as being more open minded to new ideas/theory. I find the ENFPs be more like "Oh really? tell me more?" where as I (myself and other Ni Doms) tend to have this knee jerk reaction to fireback with rebuttals etc. But funnily, It's something I/we value, but don't have much of myself. So I like it when others are open minded, but I'm probably not as open minded as I could be (with Ni/Ne as #1) so Ni doms would feel "You can't just say everything's right! There's a right and wrong, and we need to find what's right."

I feel like in the realm of Politics/Climate-Change/Religion there seems to be a lot of usage of Ni/Ti cognitive function, and very low Ne/Te. I suppose it's the function that's needed to formulate theories, ideas, systematic thought to arrive to conclusions. With low Ne/Te it can cause close-minded-ness at least in the sense of attitude/emotion, e.g. that "quick rising fury" one feels when they see opposing views (whether it's right/wrong) leading to "keyboard smash typing" leading to a spike in keyboard sales.
 

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I have only one clear idea about my shadow functions and that is my "sensitivity" to Ne (not really sure how I use the other functions)
First of all, things like brainstorming, looking for other ideas/possibilities are very difficult for me. For example, at school when I had to write compositions, I really had a hard time because I couldn't think of anything. Eventually I would come up with something and as I grew older my brainstorming skills improved, but compositions are still one of the most annoying thing for me.
I think I'm also kinda perceptive as soon as I meet an Ne-dom or an aux-Ne (meaning I recognise them very fast), they are cool as soon as I meet them, but then I get tired by the lack of pragmatism, the continous jumping from one topic to another and I'll definitely begin wondering "yes, but what does this have to do with the original topic?".
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have only one clear idea about my shadow functions and that is my "sensitivity" to Ne (not really sure how I use the other functions)
First of all, things like brainstorming, looking for other ideas/possibilities are very difficult for me. For example, at school when I had to write compositions, I really had a hard time because I couldn't think of anything. Eventually I would come up with something and as I grew older my brainstorming skills improved, but compositions are still one of the most annoying thing for me.
I think I'm also kinda perceptive as soon as I meet an Ne-dom or an aux-Ne (meaning I recognise them very fast), they are cool as soon as I meet them, but then I get tired by the lack of pragmatism, the continous jumping from one topic to another and I'll definitely begin wondering "yes, but what does this have to do with the original topic?".
Ahhh!
  • What do you think about "people pleaser" or just "nice people" vs people that have a strong sense of self, or self-value
  • Or how's your sensory memory compare with present sensing ability?
  • And how's your relationship with facts/data/rules/authority vs working things out logically? Puzzles? etc?
(When I say "you" I mean I'm wanting to know more about your type, and how types think)
 

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So you guys would see the 8 functions more like 4 double sided coins rather than 8 separate? Fair nuff. Whether or not they exist as 8 separate or 4 double sided. We still gotta acknowledge the cognitive functions that are in our official top 4, and that you probably can't function as a normal human without at least all 8.

for INFJ's Te isn't in our top 4, but without it, we wouldn't be able to "look at the facts" even though we can suck at it. I as an INFJ can confirm that I can look at the facts. XD

But I see the INTJs more quick/apt at Te
I don't see the functions as being 8 to begin with, but 4: N, S, T, F. The E and I are attitudes of adaptation that supersede them. But the MBTI has its own definitions which don't connect well to the Jungian theory or even reality for that matter. Anyways, it's a big topic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
But the MBTI has its own definitions which don't connect well to the Jungian theory or even reality for that matter
I see you point that there are basically 4 functions that are either Extroverted or Introverted.

What else did you mean that it doesn't connect will with reality?
 

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I see you point that there are basically 4 functions that are either Extroverted or Introverted.

What else did you mean that it doesn't connect will with reality?
Nah, it's not the functions that are either E or I, it's the person.

I mean MBTI has its own definitions that have little to do with the original Jungian conception which was based on observing and categorizing different qualities than what the MBTI pays attention to. For example MBTI treats E as the "outer world" and I as the "inner world" so whatever you wanna do on the outer world is labeled E and your inner world is labeled I. But in reality, an E person deals with both the inner and outer world through Extraversion primarily, and the Introverted person deals with the outer and inner world through their Introversion primarily.
 

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Nah, it's not the functions that are either E or I, it's the person.

I mean MBTI has its own definitions that have little to do with the original Jungian conception which was based on observing and categorizing different qualities than what the MBTI pays attention to. For example MBTI treats E as the "outer world" and I as the "inner world" so whatever you wanna do on the outer world is labeled E and your inner world is labeled I. But in reality, an E person deals with both the inner and outer world through Extraversion primarily, and the Introverted person deals with the outer and inner world through their Introversion primarily.
Hmmm...
Would that be the conscious and unconscious?

“If you take an extrovert you will find his unconscious has an introverted quality, because all the extraverted qualities are played out in his consciousness and the introverted are left in the unconscious. (Jung in McGuire & Hull, 1977, p. 342)”

Vice versa for introvert?


Would you give me an example of how an extravert externally and internally extroverts (utilizes this attitude)?
Would you give me an example of how an introvert externally and internally introverts (utilizes this attitude)?
 
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What do you think about "people pleaser" or just "nice people" vs people that have a strong sense of self, or self-value
Oh well, I either admire them or despise them. It depends on how authentic is their need to be nice people or if they're just being opportunists. Having a strong sense of self is important, but it shouldn't become an excuse to think you or your idea of the world is better than that of the others.
Or how's your sensory memory compare with present sensing ability?
I think it is decent, I can remember well the general details (like where something happened, if it was sunny etc.) but I'm usually bad at remembering faces for example. I don't usually think a lot about sensory memories, but I can recall them when there is a difference between what I knew and what I'm seeing right now (for example I notice if someone touched or moved my things).
And how's your relationship with facts/data/rules/authority vs working things out logically? Puzzles? etc?
For the first one it depends, I respect authority only when it deserves my respect, rules are a pretty malleable concept for me, I understand they are necessary but I don't feel the need to stick to every rule.
For the second one, I can be logical when necessary and puzzles can be fun, but I prefer visual puzzles (the ones where you have to look and find the way to solve it, like labyrinths) rather than straight logic puzzles where you have to think a lot.
Ti is a mysterious function for me, when I have to approach something logically I rely 99% of the times on Te (organize the information, get the facts etc.), pure logic especially if it's outside the general and trusted rules is absolutely the most complex thing for me. If Te doesn't work I either ask for help, make random attempts or just give up (which is basically how I dealt with my math classes at school, brings back such amazing memories...).
 

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The Ne as #5 can be also be seen as being more open minded to new ideas/theory. I find the ENFPs be more like "Oh really? tell me more?" where as I (myself and other Ni Doms) tend to have this knee jerk reaction to fireback with rebuttals etc. But funnily, It's something I/we value, but don't have much of myself. So I like it when others are open minded, but I'm probably not as open minded as I could be (with Ni/Ne as #1) so Ni doms would feel "You can't just say everything's right! There's a right and wrong, and we need to find what's right."
Yeah I think you've pretty much summed up the difference between INFJ and ENFP, even without getting into the functions!

For me, I'm not a neither a perceiver or a N dominant. So there's a set of values and a way of reasoning that I am loyal to before anything else. But I'd still say I'm pretty open to new information and pick up on it fast. Even if I oppose the underlying values, I still want to learn more about the opposing side - it's useful, too, since even if I know it's argued for the "wrong reasons", understanding it from the other perspective helps me counter it better in the future.

But in terms of direction in life, I think my preference for Ni becomes clear; I don't enjoy the discovery of potential the same way Ne dominants seem to. It's there for me, but not something I would marvel on. Often a source of frustration even: it's like seeing lots of fruits right in front of my nose, ready for the picking, but none the one I want (and meanwhile the one I want, often remains unreachable, lol).

I feel like in the realm of Politics/Climate-Change/Religion there seems to be a lot of usage of Ni/Ti cognitive function, and very low Ne/Te. I suppose it's the function that's needed to formulate theories, ideas, systematic thought to arrive to conclusions. With low Ne/Te it can cause close-minded-ness at least in the sense of attitude/emotion, e.g. that "quick rising fury" one feels when they see opposing views (whether it's right/wrong) leading to "keyboard smash typing" leading to a spike in keyboard sales.
I sort of agree... though I suppose Ne could find novelty from these areas in life, they do seem to allure dogmatic thinkers and ideologues. Not that I mind but </3
 
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Hmmm...
Would that be the conscious and unconscious?

“If you take an extrovert you will find his unconscious has an introverted quality, because all the extraverted qualities are played out in his consciousness and the introverted are left in the unconscious. (Jung in McGuire & Hull, 1977, p. 342)”

Vice versa for introvert?


Would you give me an example of how an extravert externally and internally extroverts (utilizes this attitude)?
Would you give me an example of how an introvert externally and internally introverts (utilizes this attitude)?
Extraversion: take in information from the environment, turn it inwards to change/correct oneself, then apply oneself externally -> adapt self to environment
Introversion: resist/filter/alter information from the environment, turn it outwards to change/correct the environment-> adapt the environment to oneself
so basically the MBTI draws an arbitrary line between outer and inner world, as if who we are doesn't have an impact on what we do out, or how we understand and incorporate stimuli doesn't affect ourselves. It's a cycle.

that's the basic summary of the two attitudes, which of course exist in all people at an individual balance
yea, Jung saw a line drawn between conscious and unconscious which meant that functions at conscious use would take on the dominant attitude, be it the primary, aux and tertiary function and when unconscious would be influenced by the other attitude. Unsure how true that is because in my experience and observations, the attitude can change and affect the dom function as well, like a whole change of direction in the personality albeit usually momentarily as it's a situational thing. Maybe people who don't strongly prefer one attitude might experience it a little differently, maybe it's not felt as much and might last longer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Extraversion: take in information from the environment, turn it inwards to change/correct oneself, then apply oneself externally -> adapt self to environment
Introversion: resist/filter/alter information from the environment, turn it outwards to change/correct the environment-> adapt the environment to oneself
so basically the MBTI draws an arbitrary line between outer and inner world, as if who we are doesn't have an impact on what we do out, or how we understand and incorporate stimuli doesn't affect ourselves. It's a cycle.

that's the basic summary of the two attitudes, which of course exist in all people at an individual balance
yea, Jung saw a line drawn between conscious and unconscious which meant that functions at conscious use would take on the dominant attitude, be it the primary, aux and tertiary function and when unconscious would be influenced by the other attitude. Unsure how true that is because in my experience and observations, the attitude can change and affect the dom function as well, like a whole change of direction in the personality albeit usually momentarily as it's a situational thing. Maybe people who don't strongly prefer one attitude might experience it a little differently, maybe it's not felt as much and might last longer.
As and introvert, my experience with Fe, is that I genuinely feel really pleased when people around me are happy, even more so if I caused their happiness. My lack of Fi means I can please people at my expense (not always healthy). Or not stand up for the truth as much as I ought. Or I even feel that people with strong/healthy Fi could even seem selfish at time. I'm jealous of people with strong Fi. I feel like I always need to talk about my feelings in order to figure them out (even though I'm an introvert). Fi I'm consciously working on. e.g. exercising self-love, self-worth. without someone externally telling me of my worth (Fe). - These are just my experiences with Fe/Fi as an introvert.

How our human experiences/sensations/perceptions are systematically organized by (Ni user) is a different matter and up for endless debate (e.g. is it 8 functions vs 4 double sided?) As an Ni dom, I was initially more uptight about the theory and debate, but my Fe is making me want to keep the peace. :LOL:
 

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I am also skeptical of “shadow functions” in the 8 function model. Overly complicated. Shadow only really becomes apparent in a distressed or highly unbalanced individual, so a static hierarchy makes little sense. It is a fair question to ask, though (most aptly queried by Jung): If personalities develop a preference for one side of a functional axis over another, and that is taken to extreme, what happens with the neglected one? Does it relate to “shadow” as defined by all the parts of ourselves we don’t want to look at, don’t trust, or have disowned? As an INTJ, I can’t see how N or T would ever “bug” me, but when those become too far separated from S and F, it gets pretty ugly.

For S, physical existence is deeply unsettling in a shadow state. I have a not-so-proud kinship with figures like Dr. Moreau and Harry Harlow... the need to dissect and destroy to get at the essence of what most people would take as an obvious and self-evident reality, to distort reality because one feels like they don’t really belong in it... and so causing terrible suffering (even if it leads to some greater understanding or advancement in the end). That drive is relatable. Not condonable, generally, but relatable, in my worst moments.

In an F dominated atmosphere, I fear I might be instantly regarded as a threat and executed. I’ve harbored paranoia around others using emotional manipulation, especially in crowds, where I will be overwhelmed by a throng of reactivity. Yet, I also have a fascination there...one of my favorite novels is “The Invisible Man” by Ralph Ellison due to his descriptions of persuasive oration and the “shaping” of a mob. So there you go.

Can’t say I have it all that business figured out, but if I did, it wouldn’t be in shadow, would it?
 
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