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Okay, so over Thanksgiving break, I have to return to working with my INTJ coworker who definitely wants to stab me. We used to be good friends, but then he changed his mind and said everything I do agitates him-- so basically, I want to try really hard to not annoy him at work so that it's a pleasant work environment for everyone involved. Unfortunately, he will not give me examples as to what I do that agitates him; the most info I got was that it's "my behavior in general and my outlook on life" (???) so I was hoping you guys could help out and provide some personal examples that I might be able to use as guidance.

Feel free to be as harsh as possible-- I won't take it personally. I'm just honestly in need of some insight.
 

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The thing that annoys me the most is the major clash between being with an ENFP in a one on one situation and being with one in a crowd.

I have a really good ENFP friend I used to work with, just me and him in the office for about 7 hours. We used to have awesome conversations etc. During the last hour of work about 20 other people would show up for the next shift and his personality would change completely, suddenly it was all about joking around loudely and making sure he was the center of attention.

I'm an ENFP too, and on occassion I can be like that, it's pretty rare being also a 4w5 which makes me more INFP than anything else. When he did it, it really got on my nerves though.
 

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Randomness.

Although I greatly appreciate and enjoy a certain degree of entropy, it does get annoying from time to time. One of my co-workers I get along best with is either an ENFP or an ENTP. Hard to tell but it's leaning towards ENFP. He doesn't work like other ENTPs I know. He's deaf though so he doesn't talk much... I'm not sure if I would like him so much if he could talk. Even with sign language he's really chatty and tries to joke all the time.

Anyway, what's great is that he's always game and he always has ideas. He also has a sense of humour that only one other person in the office has picked up on as not very many people have picked up much sign language.

What bugs me is whenever we go out on lunch missions, he can't make up his mind. Even after we've ordered, he'll go walking off to some random place and try to drag me along. He's also an attention whore. He also invades the personal bubble a lot. I tolerate it with him more because he's deaf and he might need to get closer to communicate certain things but it's still a little irritating.

Short answer: just don't be clingy and don't tax his mind when he's trying to veg out.
 

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Difficult to understand at times. Alot of ENFPs seem to have problems getting what they want to say across clearly, and I end up having to decipher what they're trying to say. It can get very irritating. I enjoy their randomness and ability to continue conversations endlessly. Some ENFPs are very dumb, and some are very very intelligent.

They can also make very terrible jokes at times.
 

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These are tidbits picked up from several ENFPs both male and female:


1. The drama. Everything is so immediate.
2. Playing the victim. I am sure that if everyone was an aggressor in their life and they will move on and call me one too.
3. The hypocrisy. They name you as the person who is cold and unfeeling yet they say some of the most abhorrant things in anger or as revenge. Which brings me to....
4. Revenge. They will get so upset about something so slight and exact revenge above and beyond the slight. The revenge can go on for weeks, months even.
5. They will drag everyone into their drama so they have an army of ignorant soldiers there to back them up....most of the time they are only told partial truths.
6. After being told no for something countless times they seem to just not want to accept no as the answer and go about manipulative means to turn the no into yes.
7. The surprising lack of empathy. They will bitch and moan for louder and longer and play victim so many times but as soon as you are a bit off they will call you a whiner.
8. Sex. They act as if it is the most important means of expressing ones emotions and depth of love but....they don't seem to mind that you are not as willing as they are. If you have an injury and haven't had sex for days they will get pouty and blame you for it and this goes back to empathy too. This isn't only me it's happened to either sadly.

I could go on and on but I am sure no-one wants to hear it. The simple things of not planning anything beyond their immediate needs can be annoying but not as annoying as being faced with the more intrinsic occurences that happen above.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
These are tidbits picked up from several ENFPs both male and female:


1. The drama. Everything is so immediate.
2. Playing the victim. I am sure that if everyone was an aggressor in their life and they will move on and call me one too.
3. The hypocrisy. They name you as the person who is cold and unfeeling yet they say some of the most abhorrant things in anger or as revenge. Which brings me to....
4. Revenge. They will get so upset about something so slight and exact revenge above and beyond the slight. The revenge can go on for weeks, months even.
5. They will drag everyone into their drama so they have an army of ignorant soldiers there to back them up....most of the time they are only told partial truths.
6. After being told no for something countless times they seem to just not want to accept no as the answer and go about manipulative means to turn the no into yes.
7. The surprising lack of empathy. They will bitch and moan for louder and longer and play victim so many times but as soon as you are a bit off they will call you a whiner.
8. Sex. They act as if it is the most important means of expressing ones emotions and depth of love but....they don't seem to mind that you are not as willing as they are. If you have an injury and haven't had sex for days they will get pouty and blame you for it and this goes back to empathy too. This isn't only me it's happened to either sadly.

I could go on and on but I am sure no-one wants to hear it. The simple things of not planning anything beyond their immediate needs can be annoying but not as annoying as being faced with the more intrinsic occurences that happen above.
I really don't think I'm guilty of most of these things, at least not to that extent. Sounds like you have known some very unhealthy ENFPs. But thanks for your insight regardless.
 

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Okay, so over Thanksgiving break, I have to return to working with my INTJ coworker who definitely wants to stab me. We used to be good friends, but then he changed his mind and said everything I do agitates him-- so basically, I want to try really hard to not annoy him at work so that it's a pleasant work environment for everyone involved. Unfortunately, he will not give me examples as to what I do that agitates him; the most info I got was that it's "my behavior in general and my outlook on life" (???) so I was hoping you guys could help out and provide some personal examples that I might be able to use as guidance.

Feel free to be as harsh as possible-- I won't take it personally. I'm just honestly in need of some insight.
Uhh, you wanna change your behavior to satisfy some prick? Screw that guy.

The above is to be read from a non-sexual perspective.
 

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Conversation I had with an ENFP the other night:

ENFP- 'So I'm ringing to ask you to clarify if we are dating'
Me- 'Huh, what?! What on Earth gave you that impression?'
ENFP- 'We hang out a lot, and do stuff together all the time'
Me- 'Yeah, because you've been my friend for the last 7 years... That's what friends do.'
ENFP- 'So I think we should take it to the next level.'
Me- 'I have told you from the beginning and several times in between that I don't see us as a couple being even remotely compatible, and to tell you the truth, I am just not interested and never have been.'
ENFP- 'You know you aren't that attractive anyway, you can't afford to be picky.'
Me- 'I really don't think my appearance is an issue.'
ENFP- 'You know, that guy you are interested in... he's going to take one look at you and walk away. I suggest you stick to what you know.'
Me- 'Was that an attempt at wooing me back? If so, you can mostly certainly forget about even the smallest glimmer of hope.'
ENFP- 'I just think you are too far up your own ass for your own good. You are so cold and calculating and manipulative. You think that life is just one big game with rules and regulations. You are never going to find love.'
Me- 'This conversation is over.'
ENFP- 'Okay, but seriously though... think about it'

So out of Beth's list I think that conversation covered:

3. The hypocrisy. They name you as the person who is cold and unfeeling yet they say some of the most abhorrant things in anger or as revenge.

6. After being told no for something countless times they seem to just not want to accept no as the answer and go about manipulative means to turn the no into yes.
 

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ENFP- 'You know you aren't that attractive anyway, you can't afford to be picky.'
Me- 'I really don't think my appearance is an issue.'
ENFP- 'You know, that guy you are interested in... he's going to take one look at you and walk away. I suggest you stick to what you know.'
Me- 'Was that an attempt at wooing me back? If so, you can mostly certainly forget about even the smallest glimmer of hope.'
ENFP- 'I just think you are too far up your own ass for your own good. You are so cold and calculating and manipulative. You think that life is just one big game with rules and regulations. You are never going to find love.'
Me- 'This conversation is over.'
ENFP- 'Okay, but seriously though... think about it'
Please tell me he is a virgin.
 

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I recently sent my most favourite ENFP in the world the following message:

We have been engaged in a cycle of ENFP/INTJ relationship data gathering. The proposition being to remove my now engrained aversion to ENFPs based upon my past experiences of ENFPs (yes I was with an ENFP for 5 years and engaged as well!) Anyway, her replies are completely valid too and therefore I will include it for balance.

To add context to this situation the aforementioned ENFP has been in a relationship with an INTJ for more than 10 years quite happily. So this is interesting that we both have a wad of different experiences regarding the ENFP/INTJ dynamic.

InvisibleJim said:
I have decided after a thought that there are simply far too many potential difficulties in an INTJ by being involved with most ENFPs, not limited to the following:

INTJ may be frowned upon by showing the full range of his thoughts regarding aspirations and beliefs and asserting these, the further these are developed the more likely the ENFP will take exception to this.
INTJ by contrast is expected by default to accept and integrate all of the ENFPs aspirations and beliefs.
INTJs are, in most cases, expected to bank roll the ENFPs self interests.
INTJ must be tolerant of the ENFPs need to be involved in most things, even if they drag out dissaproval of the activity itself and deliver lackluster performance.
INTJ must be tolerant of ENFPs friend circle regardless of occurrences. The ENFP reserves the right to cause offense to the INTJs friends on the slightest provocation or infact any reason.
INTJ must accept that the ENFPs inability to be direct in needs and wants, instead interpreting the Chinese whispers game and as a consequence the ENFP will often flat out refuse to speak the INTJs language but expects the INTJ to speak theirs.
INTJ is expected to tolerate and respect the ENFPs introverting time explicitly, but the ENFP must be allowed to interrupt the INTJs time at their convenience.
INTJ is supposed to explicitly honour past statements to the letter or be showered with disapproval, the ENFP is allowed to flip flop commitments as often as they please regardless of importance.
INTJ may have commitments, these will be given scorn by the ENFP; this should be ignored and possibly dropped to meet the ENFPs requirements. Even the slightest commitment of the ENFP is sacrosanct, it may be challenged but must be honoured.

Now these are all negative points as you know there are some positive points and some concessions the ENFP makes to the INTJ , but I feel they are entirely outweighed by the above.

I have decided to draw any more data gathering regarding the type for relationships to a close and only deal with the remaining ENFPs with which I can find any sort of common ground and that I currently know well.
ENFPfriend said:
Then it appears I have failed. Your choice. I'd hoped that a glimpse into who I am and how my relationship works with an INTJ very much like yourself, would show you the benefits and the fact that an ENFP doesn't have to be *all of the things listed above*.

Also, the tone of the way you wrote that shows me that you are in fact not able to see past your own resentment, which is understandable, though regrettable.

In a relationshiop with any person or type you will always have moments where the other doesn't make sense, is unreasonable, stubborn or flat out wrong. The same is true for yourself btw. Find the person whose flaws you can smile at, and can show understanding for, and who will do the same for yours. Then you will find what you are looking for in terms of a partner, imho.

In light of my experiences with you, I'd suggest you look for an infj with the same vision of what they want out of life as you. It would suit you well, I feel.

Take care.
I should repeat, to avoid confusion and flaming, that I feel that this ENFP knows me well and I am the first to say that I feel she has a very good handle and understanding of the situation. She is quite correct in her summary.

I think the most difficult thing for an ENFP to understand about an INTJ is how the INTJ will history match past similar experiences quite vividly (Ni is a bitch) leading us to say 'I see where this is going' before others do.

Therefore if we have a bundle of (or an overriding) negative experiences we will quite frivolously and without enough thought assign those memories and the required avoidance associated to a person without taking the necessary time to consider the full ramifications of that just to find our environment non threatening.

We are unlikely to think 'this is a new person treat them as a special case'.

I also understand this a general summary and not specific points; I'm not really interested in going through my personal history on an internet forum; but I think flagging these up as what an INTJ can, if they are feeling it, see as negative about an ENFP might be of value in this thread.

8. Sex. They act as if it is the most important means of expressing ones emotions and depth of love but....they don't seem to mind that you are not as willing as they are. If you have an injury and haven't had sex for days they will get pouty and blame you for it and this goes back to empathy too. This isn't only me it's happened to either sadly.
You have no idea how hilarious and true this is! I'm sure no ENFP will ever agree with this statement but the situations do get comical.
 

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INTJ may be frowned upon by showing the full range of his thoughts regarding aspirations and beliefs and asserting these, the further these are developed the more likely the ENFP will take exception to this.
INTJ by contrast is expected by default to accept and integrate all of the ENFPs aspirations and beliefs.
INTJs are, in most cases, expected to bank roll the ENFPs self interests.
INTJ must be tolerant of the ENFPs need to be involved in most things, even if they drag out dissaproval of the activity itself and deliver lackluster performance.
INTJ must be tolerant of ENFPs friend circle regardless of occurrences. The ENFP reserves the right to cause offense to the INTJs friends on the slightest provocation or infact any reason.
INTJ must accept that the ENFPs inability to be direct in needs and wants, instead interpreting the Chinese whispers game and as a consequence the ENFP will often flat out refuse to speak the INTJs language but expects the INTJ to speak theirs.
INTJ is expected to tolerate and respect the ENFPs introverting time explicitly, but the ENFP must be allowed to interrupt the INTJs time at their convenience.
INTJ is supposed to explicitly honour past statements to the letter or be showered with disapproval, the ENFP is allowed to flip flop commitments as often as they please regardless of importance.
INTJ may have commitments, these will be given scorn by the ENFP; this should be ignored and possibly dropped to meet the ENFPs requirements. Even the slightest commitment of the ENFP is sacrosanct, it may be challenged but must be honoured.
Isn't this for a large part the ENXX pissing on the INXX? I don't know how long your relationship lasted, but you either have serious issues if you started it like this, or she eroded your willpower. Some of these things are unavoidable: the circle of friends of an ENFP will aggravate you. You won't win that one. For the rest, you just have to stand your ground. If that causes a breakup, well, so be it. Just FYI, a girl won't respect you more if you cave in to her every demand. The person you describe above is poison. She will not contribute to your growth or long-term happiness. This isn't directed at you personally, but more on anyone who is in the EN/IN dynamic and getting the worst of it. If I were single, I'd certainly consider dating an ENFP if I were single. However, I will state my boundaries, and I will defend them with extreme prejudice.

It's funny how good INTJs are at describing the elaborate defenses of their fictional village, but how utterly they fail at protecting themselves in relationship - I sure as hell did.
 

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It's funny how good INTJs are at describing the elaborate defenses of their fictional village, but how utterly they fail at protecting themselves in relationship - I sure as hell did.
It's difficult because although we might declare exactly what we want and intend we will compromise (some other types may not believe that). However in my experience you compromise to keep things happy and then given time they will turn around and demand 'renegotiation'. At which point you will point out that they weren't necessarily holding to their original promises.

I find this further exasperating as it just makes me reset to my natural position and say 'no we are doing it my way now because I can no longer trust you to deal with it or to be honest in your failures'.

Irrepressible force meets immovable object at this point!

My experiences of ENFPs is that they will ignore the fact they have not been true to their word by one of several tactics, my favourite of which is the 'I didn't feel like it, I'm following my own will' way of rationalising not living up their commitments due to their 'grass is always greener' perception.

Don't get me wrong these things never happened often and dishes were not thrown. I am quite reasonable and willing to understand that it is impossible that two people will agree on everything and I assure you and I'm quite willing to be called names and laugh it off in response. It's not serious, it is well understood that this is just an attention seeking frustration outburst. But I don't think the ENFPs are very happy when I give up with the nonsense and return the favour. :laughing:

Also do remember that I listed the negative points. There are always many positives, I just haven't seen enough evidence that they balance in favour of the positives.
 

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Yup, they can be like that. Still, it is a matter of maturity. When I was immature, all I cared about was my intellectual pursuits, and was rigid in everything I did. I've loosened up and became a lot more social. I expect my partner to be serious and rational as well when the situation demands it. I like spending time in Lalaland with them, as long as they come down from it when the tax return has to be filed, and haven't thrown away important papers because of the "negative vibe, and the injustice of asking for a tax return". I really am not afraid of XNFX, fully understanding that it can go pear-shaped.
 

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It's difficult because although we might declare exactly what we want and intend we will compromise (some other types may not believe that). However in my experience you compromise to keep things happy and then given time they will turn around and demand 'renegotiation'. At which point you will point out that they weren't necessarily holding to their original promises.

I find this further exasperating as it just makes me reset to my natural position and say 'no we are doing it my way now because I can no longer trust you to deal with it or to be honest in your failures'.

Irrepressible force meets immovable object at this point!

My experiences of ENFPs is that they will ignore the fact they have not been true to their word by one of several tactics, my favourite of which is the 'I didn't feel like it, I'm following my own will' way of rationalising not living up their commitments due to their 'grass is always greener' perception.

Don't get me wrong these things never happened often and dishes were not thrown. I am quite reasonable and willing to understand that it is impossible that two people will agree on everything and I assure you and I'm quite willing to be called names and laugh it off in response. It's not serious, it is well understood that this is just an attention seeking frustration outburst. But I don't think the ENFPs are very happy when I give up with the nonsense and return the favour. :laughing:

Also do remember that I listed the negative points. There are always many positives, I just haven't seen enough evidence that they balance in favour of the positives.
I can't really express how sad I am that you've had this experience with ENFP's... I say that because my soul mate (female) is one, and she is one of the most fascinating and wonderful creatures on earth. Her mind, her beauty, her depth, AND her integrity are all so very very compelling. I adore that woman.

On the other hand, I have a sister, and she posesses. in EXTRAORDINARY measure all of the ENFP fatal personality flaws. Pherhaps what I'm trying to say is that both perfection and disaster as well as the spectrum between exist in humanity, and I'm sincerely sorry that your experiences have been thus poisoned without the benefit of having a truly balanced soul in this type to connect to. They can be wonderful in so many ways.
 
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That's because to have a relationship you have to let them into the village, past all the defenses against the outsiders.
What you say is only true if the people in question seek a connection beyond mere convenience... But there are many levels to relationships, and if neither partner needs or wants a connection on every level then the barriers can stay intact and you can still have a relationship. Be cautious of making absolutes of things with many varied layers and shades. People the world over enjoy relationships of varying depths and all are justified in such intensly personal choices. It's too superficial for me, and thus I could never feel happy without that supreme connection, but that doesn't mean I should demand or expect that of the rest of society.

In fact, I suddenly wonder if most of the relationship issues in the world are not caused by partners who enter the partnership with depth discrepencies that are too great to be reconciled...
 
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In fact, I suddenly wonder if most of the relationship issues in the world are not caused by partners who enter the partnership with depth discrepencies that are too great to be reconciled...
I would say that relationships in which there is great inequality, either in level of commitment, depth sought, or even more mundane things such as intelligence or even libido are more risky. One of the partners would either feel under-appreciated or over-taxed. To be honest, I think that a great difference in depth is so inherently fatal that that would not cause problems: the relationship would never start for real in the first place.
 

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Uhh, you wanna change your behavior to satisfy some prick? Screw that guy.

The above is to be read from a non-sexual perspective.
i agree with this. if you have been telling the truth and you're really trying to make things work, then either you're an oblivious idiot (no offense, not saying you are, just for sake of discussion) who doesn't know how to read people and the INTJ in question should grow up and tolerate you as best he can (because snide, negative comments don't really do anything to help), or this guy just has something against you.

speaking of just having something against you: you said that y'all go along well before hand, right? if this is the case, and now for some reason he's really against you.... you need to give us more information from y'alls interactions, cause right now, unless you actually did something to offend him, or he's unstable in some way, this is typical behavior of women/man scorned. maybe he liked you....
 
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