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Discussion Starter #1
Talking about what is attractive is all well and good.
But lets look at the opposite side of the spectrum.

Chumps and Munters.

What causes a chump to be a chump. Is it genetic? Are they just born destined to be creepy? I would like to think not.
So where does the creepiness come from?

Shit role models? IE useless father (except the father obviously got with the mother, so unless the child was born out of rape, the father should be able to mentor)??
Shit societal Role Models? Quite possibly, Disney is entertainment not a guide book
Then there are guys with sisters, these guys should be a notch above the other guys as they can get female input quite easily.
Lack of dating advice (well there is Dating Coachs, PUA Coachs, Life Coachs, Google Guru's), so maybe that is not an excuse.
Over estimated sense of self worth? Guy who is repulsive, believes he is fine the way he is?

So what creates an Average Fustrated Chump?

Of course there is also entitlement. But that is a double edged sword. Sure an unattractive guy who is entitled will scare the women off. But an attractive guy who is OK with no sense of ntitlement is f**ked. Its like walking into a job interview, not believing you are worthy of the job.

Then there is the munters.

The female counterparts. Granted as some guys are desperate, I suppose there is not the same requirement to work on oneself. But what creates the mindset that being attractive is bad? I have no qualms with women who are unattractive and wish to live a life of celibicy and no relationships what so ever. But the ones who study the way of the munter, internalise it, then complain that no guys like them. Well if your not attractive, no one is gonna be attracted. Its simple science.

So what are the origins of the chump and the munter.

Why are these DNA passed down as opposed to being wiped out?
 
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1. Imo it initially begins with having a decent ability to assess yourself at least some what realistically.

2. Being able to assess others reasonably

3. Being able to assess the social surroundings and environment

4. Being able to assess yourself, others, and the environment combined

5. Being able to assess how to behave in the environment in accordance to understanding the dynamic

So with that said people who seem extremely out of touch or off the mark often are extremely out of touch with their niche. It's not that creepy people cannot be desirable it's about reassessing delivery and their audience further more their market. Not over selling or over shooting people not in your market and understand the product you offer 'your niche' is key. Even if one reassessed environmental factors and learn to understand their own niche and others better and gain self & environmental awareness, delivery is also key. Most people don't respond well to hard sell or aggressive tactics (it could even get immediate results) but it doesn't usually gain longer range customer satisfaction. Building repor with people is key. Not interrogating or overselling.

So what causes those to be considered creepy, repulsive, or off putting ultimately I think it's overselling or being aggressive to the wrong market and complete lack of self awareness
 

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<<< Former creepy guy

I'm not quite as bad as I was but I'm still struggling with women. I look good but I make no efforts to be with women. I tried to change myself in the past couple years with some success but I'm not quite there yet.

What made me creepy was that I would stare girls down from afar and never talk to them. I felt like a stalker or something but once I got infatuated on a girl there was no way for me to get her out of my head, I just wanted to look at her. I would get no dopamine from talking to her or going out with her, I'd just want to look at her. I had a very low self esteem and my first thought was "It's not gonna happen... Maybe in my next life..."

Some of them would notice I was looking at them but after a month of staring and no talking, they eventually labeled me as "Creepy"...

As for the cause of my problems, I self diagnosed myself with "Avoidant Personality Disorder". Low self esteem, scared of leaving my comfort zone. I was bullied heavily in high school and I kinda skipped the part where you learn how to approach women and spend time with them. I never really got any advice from my parents either. My dad always dated insecure and easy girls in his youth and my mom only ever went out with my dad. My mom had sever panic attacks and was depressive and on medications a decade ago so maybe some bad genes rubbed off on me, who knows.

I also have a sister. She's a good listener but not that great at giving advice.

Nowadays I talk to the women I'm into but I still can't push myself to ask them out. I'm still not sure how to spend time with them. The few dates I had left me confused and bored. From my understanding of things I'm supposed to have fun with them but I'm just not enjoying myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
<<< Former creepy guy

I'm not quite as bad as I was but I'm still struggling with women. I look good but I make no efforts to be with women. I tried to change myself in the past couple years with some success but I'm not quite there yet.

What made me creepy was that I would stare girls down from afar and never talk to them. I felt like a stalker or something but once I got infatuated on a girl there was no way for me to get her out of my head, I just wanted to look at her. I would get no dopamine from talking to her or going out with her, I'd just want to look at her. I had a very low self esteem and my first thought was "It's not gonna happen... Maybe in my next life..."

Some of them would notice I was looking at them but after a month of staring and no talking, they eventually labeled me as "Creepy"...

As for the cause of my problems, I self diagnosed myself with "Avoidant Personality Disorder". Low self esteem, scared of leaving my comfort zone. I was bullied heavily in high school and I kinda skipped the part where you learn how to approach women and spend time with them. I never really got any advice from my parents either. My dad always dated insecure and easy girls in his youth and my mom only ever went out with my dad. My mom had sever panic attacks and was depressive and on medications a decade ago so maybe some bad genes rubbed off on me, who knows.

I also have a sister. She's a good listener but not that great at giving advice.

Nowadays I talk to the women I'm into but I still can't push myself to ask them out. I'm still not sure how to spend time with them. The few dates I had left me confused and bored. From my understanding of things I'm supposed to have fun with them but I'm just not enjoying myself.
I can relate a lot of that to my younger years. I could never speak around women. It was wierd and horrible. It wasnt like I initially repulsed them either, I had female attention but my complete silence and awkwardness just messed things up. I can give plenty of examples of missed oppurtunities as well, in the cases I could talk where I totally messed things up.

I can even pinpoint exactly when it happened, when I started secondry school. No idea why, but it lasted all the way through secondry school and college (UK college not university).

Although I have no sisters, I have several female cousins and as a little kid was always hanging around with more girls than guys. But then when I hit secondary school something happened.

Even my dad commented on it, on a few embarrassing situations, girls knocking on the door asking if I was free to hang out and I would come out with wierd shit. I actually quizzed my dad on why he never gave me any decent advice (one of my best friends at the time was a natural but he was bought up by a single dad who took him to the pub on the pull) and he just said "Well your a guy so I thought you just knew that stuff".

Im glad those days are in the past now. But part of me would really like to know what the hell happened internally. But then part of me dosnt as I dont want to reprogram myself to going back like that. I believe it was due to being bullied a lot at secondary school, but again I will never know for sure and again to be honest I dont want to revisit that shit.
 
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In addition to the good points others have made I think low self-esteem often contributes. If a person has a phobic reaction to it then they can be desperate/creepy and if a person has an overcompensation reaction to it then they can be entitled/overconfident.

Personally I definitely had some esteem issues in my teen years (still am not awesome) but being that I didn't feel much primary sexual attraction I just avoided it by circumventing relationships entirely. People thought I was aloof but at least I wasn't a "munter" (lmao, learned a new term tonight). Though when I googled "munter" a photo of a woman with a rare disease came up, and that's just sad. The account maker must have been a real chump...
 

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people are fickle reflections of their environment and even if they think they can do better because of deep social programming, the truth is we're all filthy animals who would fuck a cherry pie if we thought it would make us feel good about ourselves

creepy people fail to understand this. they don't make you feel good about yourself, they TRY to - and in doing so they make it glaringly obvious that not only do they intend to put their bits and pieces in your jigglywiggly, but they aren't even going to adequately appease your ego to soften the blow :p

i've met guys who would be considered "creeps" and they actually ended up in relationships with women half their age. by male standards this is a mega win, but the women in question were predators who fed on low self esteem. in such a scenario, who is the creep?

i've also come across girls who looked at me like i was a shit they didn't mean to dump, and when they realize i'm not interested, suddenly i'm the only thing worth talking to. they take disinterest as latent superiority and as such feel inferior to me, thus they want me to jizz all over their face so they can gratify their own sense of self worth. they don't stop to consider that i prefer fucking guys. human nature doesn't stop to consider. it just wants to feel good and every single ego on the planet shares that same desire.

creeps are simply those unlucky few that fail to measure up to your subjective standards. they disappear when you're drunk and they never even existed in the first place when you're on drugs :p

tldr; everyone is a creep to someone

 

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I think a creep is generally considered to be a hostile aggressive person with zero social skills; it really doesn't have that much to do with looks. I was once followed for blocks; by an extremely physically attractive guy, who was just plain weird.
 

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people are fickle reflections of their environment and even if they think they can do better because of deep social programming, the truth is we're all filthy animals who would fuck a cherry pie if we thought it would make us feel good about ourselves

creepy people fail to understand this. they don't make you feel good about yourself, they TRY to - and in doing so they make it glaringly obvious that not only do they intend to put their bits and pieces in your jigglywiggly, but they aren't even going to adequately appease your ego to soften the blow :p

i've met guys who would be considered "creeps" and they actually ended up in relationships with women half their age. by male standards this is a mega win, but the women in question were predators who fed on low self esteem. in such a scenario, who is the creep?

i've also come across girls who looked at me like i was a shit they didn't mean to dump, and when they realize i'm not interested, suddenly i'm the only thing worth talking to. they take disinterest as latent superiority and as such feel inferior to me, thus they want me to jizz all over their face so they can gratify their own sense of self worth. they don't stop to consider that i prefer fucking guys. human nature doesn't stop to consider. it just wants to feel good and every single ego on the planet shares that same desire.

creeps are simply those unlucky few that fail to measure up to your subjective standards. they disappear when you're drunk and they never even existed in the first place when you're on drugs :p

tldr; everyone is a creep to someone

dat song tho.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
i've met guys who would be considered "creeps" and they actually ended up in relationships with women half their age. by male standards this is a mega win, but the women in question were predators who fed on low self esteem. in such a scenario, who is the creep?
Why did I never meet these women when my self esteem was super low. Lucky bastards.
 
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Why did I never meet these women when my self esteem was super low. Lucky bastards.
if it helps put things in perspective, he was so insecure that he started a bar fight with me because he convinced himself i was fucking his gf, even though he knew i'm a shameless little gay haha. his gf also took a chunk out of his neck in the fight. literally.

so ya, if you enjoy being emotionally or physically abused, trust me, you'll find the right girl for you eventually :p
 

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TWhat causes men to be creepy and women to be repulsive?
Some people are just sick or just with terrible attitudes, other than that, there are cases where delayed or weird non verbal interaction gets you that feeling: creepy, repulsive. Even caused by cultural misunderstandings.


I can talk about two cases that I have known for years (long time friends).

Guy. Friend since we were 16 years old until 26 years old (10 years). Terrible luck with women, they constantly rejected him. Many of my friends (both male and female) got to know him, and over the years the complains about him being... unpleasant increased, plain rejection. Then I started having some exGFs telling me they hated him because couldn't keep eye contact, he was constantly giving dirty looks and also staring directly to their breasts while talking, I agree on his appearance changing, his body language wasn't good when it comes to social interaction, particularly: him seeing others interact with women. End of story everybody ended up hating him, me too, what a fucking jerk (that's another story).

Woman. I have several examples of women nobody wants around or rejected. Most have in common their way of talking (fast, at times incomprehensible, loud-low-loud-low-loud, high pitch voice at times and very loud laughing). My grandmother used to say about them... they act like dirty-bar-drunk-fucks (a male comparison actually). Ok let's describe an intriguing example. This friend (like 10 years close friend too, since we were 27 perhaps).

She is very pretty, above average body, beautiful breasts and amazing out of this world butt (italian roots). The purpose of such details are important in this context. Nobody approaches her, nobody that I know ever attempted a relationship with her. Sure, everyone notices her and ends up shocked by her looks but that's about it. Creppy? enough for people to avoid her, heavily. Bad breah, bad dental hygiene (almost never brushes her teeth), smelly feet, talks too much and often comes to conclusions regarding things that have nothing to do with each other. People label her as weird, creepy, "avoid at all costs". And one of her worst traits is turning into a small child (voice, pitch and attitude) when things get ugly, just like a regression. If that doens't work then she becomes aggressive.
 

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Creepy guys fail to read social and non-verbal cues, whilst still encroaching on her personal space. Like others have said, desperation and entitlement drive this even more. This then limits social opportunities to learn through experience, creating a vicious circle.
 
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What one woman thinks is creepy another might not.

Point in case - I was once at a club and there was this fine woman there that I danced on. I let my well endowed cock grow as I grinded on her through my pants and we fucked that night.

If i had done that to another girl, she might have thought it creepy. In fact, I've talked about this to several girls and they said they thought that was creepy, but it works every time.

Formula:

Dark club + grinding + big cock = one night stand even with ugly face.

So I feel it's contextual.

If the lady is living up to her persona, yeah she doesn't really go for that "creepy" stuff.

But as soon as her and her friends start going to the clubs, the big dicks get em...it's like dr. jeckyl and mr. hyde.

My advice, if you don't want to be creepy, be super smart. Talk about Chopin and rembrandt. Then when you go to the club, get that massive boner going, and lay it on her. When her pussy gets wet...Creepy just means sexy.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Theres a lot of truth in that.

If someone is attracted, you can say anything and its all good.
If they are not, then its creepy.

I do think semantically it would be better just to say that people are ugly or unattractive though than creepy.
 

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Theres a lot of truth in that.

If someone is attracted, you can say anything and its all good.
If they are not, then its creepy.

I do think semantically it would be better just to say that people are ugly or unattractive though than creepy.
Orrr guys could stop telling themselves this crap and listen and learn instead. :rolleyes:
 

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Orrr guys could stop telling themselves this crap and listen and learn instead. :rolleyes:
Ive said exactly the same thing to a girl that has been labelled as creepy, and it has been recieved well with her then commencing to play tonsil tennis. I can see no other reason, why something is creepy one minute and then not the next. I can actually get away with saying a lot of things.
 

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Ive said exactly the same thing to a girl that has been labelled as creepy, and it has been recieved well with her then commencing to play tonsil tennis. I can see no other reason, why something is creepy one minute and then not the next. I can actually get away with saying a lot of things.
I was supposed to quote toru's meme in that post, also.

I meant unattractive doesn't equal creepy and attractive doesn't equal not creepy. It isn't the same thing at all. If guys keep telling themselves that women find them creepy because they aren't attracted to them, then they will continue to blame the women for what is essentially the guy's issue, which he needs to address himself.
 

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I was supposed to quote toru's meme in that post, also.

I meant unattractive doesn't equal creepy and attractive doesn't equal not creepy. It isn't the same thing at all. If guys keep telling themselves that women find them creepy because they aren't attracted to them, then they will continue to blame the women for what is essentially the guy's issue, which he needs to address himself.
Hold ya horses there. I cannot speak in terms of @Toru Okada

But personally, no come on you have read my posts for long enough. My general theme or message has always been that its a guys responsibility to make himself attractive. Personally Im not blaming women here for a guy being unattractive and thus labelled as creepy.

Like i have said many times before

"Attraction is not a choice. Being Attractive is".
"If a man fails to attract beautiful women into his life, his genes will be unapologetically weeded out of existance"
"If a woman does not find you attractive, you probably arn't"

Nowhere is any of that blame placed on women, its all placed on the guy and if he chooses to be attractive or not.
 
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