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MOTM July 2010
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Discussion Starter #1
My best friend is an ENTJ, but she rarely tells her opinion about me.

ENTJs, what do you think about ESTJs?
 

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I think they are great. The Sensors always provide a good balance to us Intuitives. They have the skills and the talent to work out details, and find things which are easliy misssed by us bigger picture folks. There can be clash regarding approaches to problem solving but that is usually minor.
 

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To tell you the truth sensing type they usually get me angry because of their inability to see ahead and their dislike for knowledge. This is my experience with sensing types I try to get along with them
 

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My lab partner for experimental physics back in college was probably an ESTJ. We built a laser using jello as a our gain media. It was awesome.

The main differences were probably in the style of humor, friendliness, and how we accomplish tasks. He was a bit of a cornball, liked being friends with everyone, and tended to bulldoze through tasks. My humor is dark, I'm not as jovial, and I tend to segment tasks tightly to make sure things are bulletproof and well-defined-- I wanted to understand each step of a process, while he was more interested in completing each step of a process.

I'd be more likely to ask, why are we doing this? He'd be more likely to say, let's just do this and see what happens. I should have been more assertive about this, given we wasted a good amount of time in dead ends because of not conceptualizing why various things initially weren't working. But this is like five years ago, and I wasn't as persistent back then.

The main commonalities-- the thirst for challenge, the willingness to put in extra time, the no bullshit directness, proper planning-- outweighed the differences. Our final slideshow was pretty damn sweet-- all sorts of charts, tables, fun pictures, etc.

ENTJ+ESTJ= WIN.
 

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I think it depends on how agreeable we are to each other, when the values clash, I'm not going to back down while the ESTJ might want to bulldoze me into agreement. I'm all for 'let's agree to disagree', but I don't know how much they will be keen with it. Also how much I respect the ESTJ in question; while intellect and common sense are important on how I see any type/ person, ESTJs tend to vocally voice their opinions and stick with them. If I find those opinions stupid, that can be a problem.

As long the boundaries are kept 'sacred' and we're intellectually compatible, I think it should be fun to have a friend like that.
 
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I think there is great potential here because we do have similarities. However, I'm more worried about the balance of the particular ESTJ because if they try to be too dominant it's not going to go over so well. I mean, I can be agreeable (as much as I usually am not), but I'm used to most of the 'give' when there's tension coming from people around me.

The ESTJ would also have to trust me and my N a bit. Consider what JHBowdin said about the lab partner. I usually have plans and contingencies lined up based on how they should work and I save a lot of time and effort this way. I hate trial and error. This builds on my first point that I will refuse to be stifled. JHB said the ESTJ was in charge, and I know what that's like and it is definitely frustrating.
 

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MOTM July 2010
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Discussion Starter #7
Yes, I like to take in charge and my ENTJ seems okay with it. But my "take in charge" attitude is not absolute. I always ask her about her opinions about things and I appreciate that. Once we reach an agreement, she let me lead the way to practice what we had agree with. If I were a king, she was like my counselor. She give me insights to approach things, and I take the lead in action. Something like that.
 

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Guys, I didn't mean to make it sound as if I was playing Darth Vader to the ESTJ Emperor Palpatine. He by nature was just more like "Chaarrrrrrge!" when it came to roadblocks, while my style is more "ready, aim, fire." Since he was the one who secured most of the equipment, it didn't seem fair to bust his balls if he wanted to play around with it. I was thinking, it can't be this, and it can't be that, but if he insists, let him figure it out himself. He could have been right-- at worst, possibilities to try were eliminated. Really cool guy, not worth fighting over something stupid-- I figured our technical issues would fix themselves as long as we put the time in. And they did.

Working with an INTP is even better. They just spit out possibilities, and all I have to do is streamline them into something coherent. My instinct is to frame and ask fresh questions; their instincts are to answer them, so the dynamic is nice. Plus once you gain an INTP's trust, their sense of humor is awesome-- inappropriate, in the sense of questioning/breaking social taboos, mocking others, general offensiveness, etc. Good times.
 

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To tell you the truth sensing type they usually get me angry because of their inability to see ahead and their dislike for knowledge. This is my experience with sensing types I try to get along with them
Couldn't agree more. They also like to simplify things too much.

However, they also know how to put their finger right there where it hurts most. That is useful from time to time.

ESTJ's also are able to focus on 1 thing and go after it until it's done. That's a good thing.
 

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I can take about 15 minutes of them before I start raging internally.

Unfortunately, I have to deal with 2 of them in my family - my sister and my mother's husband. It's quite infuriating to me for them to feel the need to explain things in such great detail when I have already come to the conclusion (that they will eventually get to) in minute 2 of the 15 minute conversation.
 

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It's quite infuriating to me for them to feel the need to explain things in such great detail
Explaining yourself is a fun and useful skill to have. Take a problem, and divide it into sub-problems, and break it down until we reach simplest terms. This not only ensures clarity of communication-- it demonstrates authority, ensures tasks are completed the way we like, and it checks ourselves for errors. I'm process oriented anyway, and enjoy working through a problem dialectically, sharpening our concepts, meeting objections, etc. etc.

I'm infuriated by people who think they can magically go from A to B like a quantum jump without any intermediate steps. Recently I chatted with an anarchist/communist in a bar who wanted some stateless society, and he also supported a litany of progressive causes-- confiscating profits, free education and healthcare, and so forth. I asked him-- we already have mammoth institutions in place like Social(ist) Security, Medicare, etc.-- do we keep these or destroy these when trying to realize our hopenchange Utopia? The guy would not give me a yes or no answer.

If we can't explain ourselves, then we don't know what we're talking about. Since I like free market capitalism, if someone wanted to know if I wanted to privatize roads, the police, national parks, the military etc. I'd owe them an answer why or why not, to provide a criterion for exceptional cases, or to simply say I don't know. Otherwise, we're just bullshitting people.
 
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