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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm trying to work out my types (mainly Enneagram at the moment, but I'm not 100% on my MBTI either) and was wondering if there is any function that causes an inability to decide things. I can read a description of a function or even a huge profile of a personality type and happily nod along and accept that what is in front of me is a perfectly viable explanation for my whole life or just something I did yesterday (while observing myself) but can find many ways to explain everything I do and even after months of introspection cannot decide what the true motivation behind my actions or behavior is. I also struggle to decide on an interpretation of lyrics in songs, art or the actions of others - I easily come up with multiple explanations but cannot settle on one as the "truth".

Is this a function or just a sign of a deep distrust in my own abilities?
 

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Maybe because there rarely is an objective truth when it comes to things like that? Some art and songs are intended to be vague so the observers can create their own meanings to ponder. You'll never know whats going through a human's mind when they do something unless you ask. Sometimes I don't know exactly why I do things either.
 

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Errr, Ne makes it difficult to come up with decisions and it is VERY open-minded because it considers several possibilities, as well as Ti, which allows you to detach and analyze from multiple perspectives. Both conjecture inconclusively and agree to more than one explicative option. What you're describing sounds like a loop of uncertainty and verity, where you receive information and check whether these things are true (in this case, for you), yet consider whether there might be other explanations based on your past experiences? That sounds like an INP thing, I think (most NPs are far from resolute).

Ni tends to LEAD to decisive action or thought after a sudden realization... but I don't fully understand it yet.
 

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Great, another confirmation that I'm in a loop and have useless Fe :frustrating:
It does sound familiar... Yes, it does sound like a loop to me. Do you have any social context to make sense of what you are thinking about in?
 

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I'm trying to work out my types (mainly Enneagram at the moment, but I'm not 100% on my MBTI either) and was wondering if there is any function that causes an inability to decide things. I can read a description of a function or even a huge profile of a personality type and happily nod along and accept that what is in front of me is a perfectly viable explanation for my whole life or just something I did yesterday (while observing myself) but can find many ways to explain everything I do and even after months of introspection cannot decide what the true motivation behind my actions or behavior is. I also struggle to decide on an interpretation of lyrics in songs, art or the actions of others - I easily come up with multiple explanations but cannot settle on one as the "truth".

Is this a function or just a sign of a deep distrust in my own abilities?
Mainly your intuition, and intelligence. The process your describing is called "stalking your mind". This process, if you bend all your will to it, can result in profound observances. It can also lead to psychosis, depending on how far you go-be careful. You are in the middle of trying to "wake up". Observing one's self is very valuable in this process-you said "while observing myself". The term for this is disassociation. There is no guidebook for this type of "traveling" and "seeking". Go slowly and take absolutely nothing for granted, most things are very far from what they seem to be. Most people don't have the courage or fortitude required for this kind of thinking. But no matter what, feel no fear, it will destroy your efforts. As was said in the movie dune (someone has a sig saying this). Fear is the MIND KILLER. Killing your "self" is the most important tool in your arsenal-that is, your pride, ego, and sense of self (identity). This is how you provide detachment (disassociation) and thereby enabling your sense of "sight".

I've thought about writing an article on this subject, but frankly, most wouldn't understand what I'm plainly saying-and would think me crazy. Pm if you like.

I will not respond to any replies to my ramblings in open forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
AiraMarionette said:
Errr, Ne makes it difficult to come up with decisions and it is VERY open-minded because it considers several possibilities, as well as Ti, which allows you to detach and analyze from multiple perspectives.
This is the question regarding my MBTI - either I'm an INTP who puts great value in Fe (while being useless at using it as it's tertiary) or I'm an INFJ stuck in a Ni-Ti loop (due to having useless Fe). No amount of reading or self analysis is helping to make this distinction.

penchant said:
Do you have any social context to make sense of what you are thinking about in?
Eh... what? Social implies interaction and the loop I think I'm in pretty much defines social isolation. Maybe an example answer would clarify what you were hoping I would say?

Imightbecrazy: You will have a PM sometime, though I've no idea what it should say!
 

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This is the question regarding my MBTI - either I'm an INTP who puts great value in Fe (while being useless at using it as it's tertiary) or I'm an INFJ stuck in a Ni-Ti loop (due to having useless Fe). No amount of reading or self analysis is helping to make this distinction.
Well, for what it's worth, INTPs are most definitely capable of highly valuing Fe. In fact, assuming it's relatively developed, it works in tandem with Ti. Ti wants to help others by making sense out of their situations, impartially analyzing the issue at hand. Sometimes the primary and inferior functions team up like this, which is why we're huge upholders of harmony in a social context and value others' desires and wishes. It makes INTPs fairly amicable NTs.

The question of whether you use Ni or Ti more kind of lies on you. On your OP, you indicated that you value truth and are unsure whether singular verities are possible, which is pretty Ti-like.

Also, keep in mind MBTI is really just a logical framework for the infinitely complex human brain, so it's not like you have to adjust or define your mind to the system - actually, it should be the other way around. Why do you have "useless" Fe?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
AirMarionette said:
The question of whether you use Ni or Ti more kind of lies on you
It's Ni or Ne that's the deal breaker, Ti and Fe are definites and always seeing many options is N. Both Ss aren't me at all...

I'm actually a strange case when it comes to development in that I had amnesia at age 13 so in effect never had a childhood and having spoken to my mum this had a major impact on my personality. In light of this I doubt my inferior function would show so soon (I spent much of my time at uni helping others starting with the most distressed rather than those with the greatest practical need, and this was after only 6 years, although I have never been approached by anyone with an emotional need it's always practical), which is why I'm leaning towards INFJ at the moment. But given how few amnesiacs there are around not much has been written - maybe we develop quicker out of "starting" life in a more complicated world compared to that of a child?

AirMarionette said:
Also, keep in mind MBTI is really just a logical framework for the infinitely complex human brain, so it's not like you have to adjust or define your mind to the system - actually, it should be the other way around.
Oh yes, it's just a label. I'm actually struggling with my Enneagram at the moment as this actually has a path of improvement attached, but I can't decide which path I should take. 4 or 5 if that means anything to you.

The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
So why is my Fe rubbish? I have the desire to connect yet in 12 years have only found a couple of people who I do, all but one online where expressions of warmth are near impossible. Social graces aren't me as I come off cold and uncaring even when I really do care and want to help and I'm terrible keeping in touch even when there is no more effort involved than a couple of clicks. If you were a friend who moved away you'd may as well have died, I'm not going to contact you to see how your new life is. Though the only "real life" person I did connect with lived not five minutes from here and I never contact her either... Those I do connect with I over self disclose and make them uncomfortable, where I would hope a developed function would have self control.

I think that covers it?
 

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Eh... what? Social implies interaction and the loop I think I'm in pretty much defines social isolation. Maybe an example answer would clarify what you were hoping I would say?
Ok. I wasn't very clear on what I was thinking...:unsure:

What I know from how I function myself, is that I tend to end up in this Ni-Ti loop when I have no possibility to relate my thoughts to the external world in any way. It could be straightforward problem solving, relations, ideas, future plans, really anything. But when I can't do something outside of my head to connect to what I'm thinking, that's when I get stuck. So talking to people would help me, if I'm working on a specific situation, actually getting more hands-on gets me out of my head, or anything that relate reality my my thought process. I was asking about the social context, because what I most often find lacking when I get stuck in the loop is people to talk about and try out my ideas on.

I guess my point was that isolated introverting, would pretty much guarantee a loop sooner or later... Do I make sense this time? :crazy:
 

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I would argue that Ne can be more indecisive than Ni because Ne is coming up with several different ideas where Ni comes up with one solution that appears to be the best based on that "full picture" vision.

If I fully trust in my Ni, it is ALWAYS decisive and 9 times out of 10 it is right. It is only when I allow other factors to get in the way that I am then indecisive... so if I allow my Fe or Ti to get in the way.
 

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I'm trying to work out my types (mainly Enneagram at the moment, but I'm not 100% on my MBTI either) and was wondering if there is any function that causes an inability to decide things. I can read a description of a function or even a huge profile of a personality type and happily nod along and accept that what is in front of me is a perfectly viable explanation for my whole life or just something I did yesterday (while observing myself) but can find many ways to explain everything I do and even after months of introspection cannot decide what the true motivation behind my actions or behavior is. I also struggle to decide on an interpretation of lyrics in songs, art or the actions of others - I easily come up with multiple explanations but cannot settle on one as the "truth".

Is this a function or just a sign of a deep distrust in my own abilities?
Intuition yes, Ni no. You're focusing on an object outside of the Self, therefore it will have to be an extraverting function, hence:
Extraverted iNtuition (Ne)- Inferring relationships, noticing threads of meaning, and scanning for what could be. Extraverted iNtuiting involves seeing things "as if" with various possible ways of representing reality. Using this process, we can hold many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our minds at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and "threads" together. We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction with a previous one. Thus there is often an emergent quality to using this process. A strategy or concept emerges based on the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Extraverted iNtuiting involves realizing that there is always another view. An example is when you listen to one friend tell about an argument and understand perfectly and then listen to another friend tell a contradictory story and understand that view also. Then you wonder what the real story is because there are always so many different possible meanings.
I would argue that Ne can be more indecisive than Ni because Ne is coming up with several different ideas where Ni comes up with one solution that appears to be the best based on that "full picture" vision.

If I fully trust in my Ni, it is ALWAYS decisive and 9 times out of 10 it is right. It is only when I allow other factors to get in the way that I am then indecisive... so if I allow my Fe or Ti to get in the way.
Agreed, like Si Ni is a linear function that sees a beginning - middle - end. Ne and Se both are simultaneous using a shotgun effect in seeing everything at once. Some of you seem to be getting caught up in the use of the word introspection. Myers-Briggs claimed that Ni types are introspective which is a fallacy. All introverting functions are introspective:
in·tro·spec·tion
   /ˌɪntrəˈspɛkʃən/ Show Spelled[in-truh-spek-shuhn]
–noun
1.
observation or examination of one's own mental and emotional state, mental processes, etc.; the act of looking within oneself.
2.
the tendency or disposition to do this.
3.
sympathetic introspection.
Ti will introspect on principles of how the object works, Fi will introspect on values or how they feel about the object. Ni will introspect on the meaning of the object and how they can envision it's use. Si will introspect on how they understand the object based on what they have always understood it to be. But all of these functions must do this in lieu of the object, not while focusing on it.
 

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So why is my Fe rubbish? I have the desire to connect yet in 12 years have only found a couple of people who I do, all but one online where expressions of warmth are near impossible. Social graces aren't me as I come off cold and uncaring even when I really do care and want to help and I'm terrible keeping in touch even when there is no more effort involved than a couple of clicks. If you were a friend who moved away you'd may as well have died, I'm not going to contact you to see how your new life is. Though the only "real life" person I did connect with lived not five minutes from here and I never contact her either... Those I do connect with I over self disclose and make them uncomfortable, where I would hope a developed function would have self control.
Doesn't mean your Fe is rubbish...

Here is an idea, define for us, and as sucinctly as possible, what you think each function does. You might just not fully understand them, and that is why you are confused. (which is my suspicion, and was my own problem with typing)

However, to anwser the origional question,not having Ti might make typing harder as Ti recognises subtale differences between things. Also not having developed Si to help you reflect, or conversly, over developed Si so you can see examples of all the functions in you.

If you don't use Fi much, that means you may have a less developed self understanding, and so a less developed understanding of your thought process.

Or...as I say, you don't entirly understand the functions, and need some more tangible examples of them in action, not just abstractions or basic definitions.
 

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Great, another confirmation that I'm in a loop and have useless Fe :frustrating:
Correct, but only if you subscribe to Myers-Briggs’ theory. Simulated’s theory works if you limit your belief of how functions work to two principles. First there can only be 16 types; and second the auxiliary function must always be in use to balance out a type. Jung did not subscribe to either theory, instead said that he only gave a description of the types using the purest form of their dominant function. But Jung says it’s rare for someone to be a pure type and that if he had to begin writing descriptions for each type using his functions, there would be a minimum of over two hundred types.

I am unsure how Jung came to such a high number, but I can say there will be at least 48 types. Is it no wonder that most people say they cannot discern their type in others? It is because at least from my experience and understanding of the theory, there will be at least three sub-types for every type. Jung only refers to the the dominant function having complete control:
This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first.
So for example an INFJ can use Ni-Fe, but that is not a given and only Myers-Briggs theorizes that it does. Again Jung only says of the auxiliary function that:
Accurate investigation of the individual case consistently reveals the fact that, in conjunction with the most differentiated function, another function of secondary importance, and therefore of inferior differentiation in consciousness, is constantly present, and is a -- relatively determining factor. [p. 514]
This function only differentiates INFJ (Ni-Fe) from INTJ (Ni-Te), but it does not mean there cannot be other INFJ types. I theorize that in addition to Ni-Fe INFJs, there are also Ni-Ti types, and even Ni-Se types. Where the Ni-Fe may appear more typical of the traditional INFJ, the Ni-Ti type will also have all of the attributes of the INFJ, except as we have read from posters and some descriptions, this type will use their Fe defensively to ward off external influences. This is not an unhealthy loop, it’s a natural process of preferring Ti to Fe since Jung says even the Fe is unconscious. Once again going back to his theory:
A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition. This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases. But for such a man it is important to know about it.
Again this implies that the only constant must be the dominant function in combination with an unconscious function and Jung says the dominantn function will always be differentiated.

That leads me to what we call the inferior (4th) function which I consider a misnomer since it’s only inferior in proposed hierarchies to the three preceding functions. However for an INFJ Se will be more dominant than Ne-Fi-Te and Si. Se has to be present, otherwise the INJ will only use Ni which is what creates the imbalance. Fe can’t balance out Ni, that can only be done by it's opposite function (in this case Se). Fe can only be a workhorse in however Ni chooses to use it. But back to the fourth function, Dario Nardi says the tandem can work this way:
We might try out various tangible experiences and activities to catalyze realizations for growth. The more varied and undigested experiences one has, the more material there is for the unconscious to draw upon. We might look inward to envision how we can transform something, then gather data and take actions to realize that goal—to make real what is envisioned. For example, we might visualize how people will one day journey into space, and then take the actions necessary to design and build a spaceship to accomplish that goal. This might take many years of action, including activities to sustain the vision. Another tandem relationship involves engaging in a physical activity so that body, mind, and environment merge to become one, perhaps experiencing a great sense of calm or energy.
The point is a lack of Fe does not create some form of unhealthy loop. It’s as natural a process for an INFJ to prefer Ni-Ti to preferring Ni-Fe. As an ISTP, I am not going to appear like other ISTPs who prefer Ti-Se since I naturally prefer Ti-Ni. Based on discussions with some ISTPs, I have observed their preference for Ti-Fe, but we all must have Se present to appreciate the core values of having the SP temperament.

As for the discussion of Ne vs Fe, Berens says the two types can appear as look a-likes since Ne and Fe often focus on people and their interactions. With Ne, it is the meanings and inferences that come to mind relative to people and their interactions. With Fe, it is the actions that keep people connected or disconnected that matter. Sorry for the long post.

Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wow, that's a lot of information and questions - thanks!
penchant said:
What I know from how I function myself, is that I tend to end up in this Ni-Ti loop when I have no possibility to relate my thoughts to the external world in any way. ... I was asking about the social context, because what I most often find lacking when I get stuck in the loop is people to talk about and try out my ideas on.
That is much clearer and I completely agree. It's hard to find people to bounce ideas why you're a loner off, for some reason people get scared and when there aren't many around to start with it's a risky game to play :crazy: Analysing my motivations for isolation is entirely internal and there really isn't any other way.

thegirlcandance said:
If I fully trust in my Ni, it is ALWAYS decisive and 9 times out of 10 it is right. It is only when I allow other factors to get in the way that I am then indecisive...
In the moment I'm decisive, but when trying to analyse something it must be logically correct - Ti would be one very good explanation for this.

Filigeedreamer said:
Doesn't mean your Fe is rubbish...
Really? :unsure:

Filigeedreamer said:
Here is an idea, define for us, and as sucinctly as possible, what you think each function does.
I'd love to, but I'm really not in MBTI mode having been cramming Enneagram for the past fourtnight. It is safe to say my knowledge of the functions could be better, I just thought this would be a quick answer rather than re-opening my type question but why not!

Filigeedreamer said:
Or...as I say, you don't entirly understand the functions, and need some more tangible examples of them in action, not just abstractions or basic definitions.
Couldn't do any harm... The function descriptions are kinda like my writing at times - a few big and precise words where 20 smaller ones would make for a clearer picture to someone with limited knowledge in the subject area.

Functionanalyst said:
Intuition yes, Ni no. You're focusing on an object outside of the Self, therefore it will have to be an extraverting function
Focusing on my analysis of my own behaviour is an object outside the self?

Functionanalyst said:
Simulated’s theory works if you limit your belief of how functions work to two principles.
It seems to work because I really think I'm schizoid, but if you're right and I'm using Ne his theory takes a dent. Unlike typing/functions disorders are detailed in the action rather than the motivation - I have no problem seeing what I'm doing, it's just the why.

Functionanalyst said:
The point is a lack of Fe does not create some form of unhealthy loop.
Well whatever the cause I'm not healthy, and it's down to a lack of external input and desire/ability to find said input. If I'm following correctly the only deciding factor in finding my type is to work out my dominant function which could then be supported by either of the opposing functions. i.e Ni-Fe/Ti or Ti-Ne/Si or maybe even Ne-Fe/Ti. *wondering what an isolated ENTP would be like*

Functionanalyst said:
Sorry for the long post.
You're apologising for trying to help?! I don't know how to respond to that :tongue:
 

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Could the inability to decide what is true be related to the extroverted judging functions Te or Fe? I was wondering if those functions are based on other people's ideas and so since often there are so many opinions out there, it's hard to know what is true.
 

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Focusing on my analysis of my own behaviour is an object outside the self?
I was referring to your OP when you said, "....if there is any function that causes an inability to decide things. I can read a description of a function or even a huge profile of a personality type and happily nod along and accept that what is in front of me is a perfectly viable explanation for my whole life or just something I did yesterday (while observing myself) but can find many ways to explain everything I do and even after months of introspection cannot decide what the true motivation behind my actions or behavior is..... I easily come up with multiple explanations but cannot settle on one as the "truth". The impetus for you doing this is not your analysis, it's triggered by reading the description, ergo extraverting and focusing on an object. Ne not Ni.
It seems to work because I really think I'm schizoid, but if you're right and I'm using Ne his theory takes a dent. Unlike typing/functions disorders are detailed in the action rather than the motivation - I have no problem seeing what I'm doing, it's just the why.
I never said you use Ne, I said what you described in your opening is Ne. It can’t be anything else but. For the rest of your statement, it really pisses me off that anyone should be referring to personality disorders and correlating them with type. There is no evidence that any type correlates with a particular disorder. Even Dave Kelley has toned it down and makes sure it’s understood his P-types refer to Oldham. Two things, if you are that ill to have a medical diagnosis then you should not be attempting to type yourself. Clearly it will be skewed either because you are ill or because any treatment would change your personality I would think. Secondly if you have not been medically diagnosed, (and for god sakes anyone on this forum without M.D. or D.O. behind their name stop the bullshit correlations of types and DSM disorders) but merely saying you do not match the healthiness of an MBTI type, …. well duh stand it line because no one does. Myers describes someone using the perfect balance of dominant + auxiliary functions.

But that is merely theoretical and there are no pure or perfect types. the problem is it's not applicable in real life and does not coincide with Jung's theory. He never said the auxiliary function must be the second most used function and he never said it must be developed for one to have a healthy type. Besides again the belief that the dominant and auxiliary functions must come into play limits us to 16 types and Jung definitely thought there are many sub-types for each of the 16 as we know them.
Well whatever the cause I'm not healthy, and it's down to a lack of external input and desire/ability to find said input. If I'm following correctly the only deciding factor in finding my type is to work out my dominant function which could then be supported by either of the opposing functions. i.e Ni-Fe/Ti or Ti-Ne/Si or maybe even Ne-Fe/Ti. *wondering what an isolated ENTP would be like*
If you know your dominant function, you can only be one of two types, and that can be worked out by discovering your temperament preference. No two types using the same dominant function will have the same temperament.
 
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