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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The deal is this. I don't like the idea of a 6 who is loyal, needs groups of people to feel safe, being dependent on anything other then myself and maybe systems of thought is weak imo. (thou if I like the members I'll stand up for each and every individual when there is a need). I neither like the idea of being a pushover and of being too friendly with people :\ some people need a good thrashing sometimes imo...amoral bastards, also how can one trust them? Also if something scares me bad enough....I get defensive in a confrontational manner.

While I may seem aloof at first or disinterested and anxious (yeah my anxiety shows), I'm actually quite warm and friendly one on one with people...unless I dislike them for whatever reason, in which case I'm openly confrontational. Sometimes it comes off as if I was ESTJ type 8.

There was this event that made me think. This guy was bullshitting my dad on a shady deal and my dad asked him to leave for the n-th time...:\ I was kinda nervous and angry so I snapped. You know those really bad type 8 ESTJ stereotypes? Yeah I was an exact copy of it...I yelled (my mother freaked out because of it), got in his face, was highly confrontational, accusatory and he ran from me with his tail between his legs.

It made me notice a pattern. I kinda do that with people. I'm stubborn and almost never listen either.

Now my idea of CP 6 is basically that of an idiot who rushes into danger is almost always argumentative and violent, all bark and no bite (or so the descriptions say) <---this seems idiotic, problematic and falls very short from ideal :\ I also hate barking...-.- lmao.

<.,< it is also not me, normally I'm the friendly and accepting sort even if it may not seem like that. I don't try to be overly friendly or so, but -.- yeah i care about people and my guilty conscience doesn't allow me to be much of an asshole, but when I blow my lid its one mean volcano. I'm also independent of other people, but depend on theories and systems of thought, like the enneagram for example.

When I read the 6 descriptions....they make me angry. Maybe I'm afraid of being like that or I am like that and am fighting against it with all I got? Maybe I'm just fearful and anxious and weak, so I hate that and actively try to prove the opposite of it....I don't like the idea of me being weak...but I am...?

I admit I like the idea of being Sx first. On the outside that seems strong, which is why I'm drawn to it. But at the same time I have serious doubts about me being Sx. Its impossible imo. What is going on with me?


:\ and yeah am aware thet i'm relying on others right now......grrrrr.

\o/ damn frustrating descriptions!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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I think you're too serious about typology, in one way or another. Gotta learn to "flow," man :tongue:

If it'll help any, I could tell you about the couple months last year where I felt like my autonomy was being robbed. During this time, I became unhealthily, stubbornly independent to the point where I could've hurt myself. Was snappy and withdrawn, impatient. Afterwards I joked, "I became like Dad!" who is an (ESTP) 8w9. This behavior stood out to me because, while I have done it before, it's always been in little doses, a couple hours at most. Weeks... that was unusual.

I think what will help is trying to find out why you do what you do. You don't say, so I'm guessing you don't know. Do you feel threatened, maybe? And then, why do you feel threatened? Why are you yelling and not just walking away, or doing something else? Start introspecting on that, might lead to some interesting things about yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think you're too serious about typology, in one way or another. Gotta learn to "flow," man :tongue:

If it'll help any, I could tell you about the couple months last year where I felt like my autonomy was being robbed. During this time, I became unhealthily, stubbornly independent to the point where I could've hurt myself. Was snappy and withdrawn, impatient. Afterwards I joked, "I became like Dad!" who is an (ESTP) 8w9. This behavior stood out to me because, while I have done it before, it's always been in little doses, a couple hours at most. Weeks... that was unusual.

I think what will help is trying to find out why you do what you do. You don't say, so I'm guessing you don't know. Do you feel threatened, maybe? And then, why do you feel threatened? Why are you yelling and not just walking away, or doing something else? Start introspecting on that, might lead to some interesting things about yourself.
:p you remember how much I suck at introspecting? ^^; I'll give it a go, think you are right.
 

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Your wording and the assumptions you lay out regarding needing/depending/relying...It's almost like you are trying to describe E6 behavior in terms of addictions. And you seem really firm on all-or-nothing behavior. Being counterphobic does not mean being visibly aggressive at all times. The blitz is standing ready inside us, but we don't all unleash the fury at the drop of a hat.

Consider taking a look at it from another angle.

What I value isn't always visible to an outside observer. Just because I value something doesn't mean I have to have it. I value Siberian Tigers, but I don't have one for an avatar, I have no pictures of them where I live, and I don't bring them up in discussions. In fact, you wouldn't even know how much I value them unless you asked me a specific question about them. If I were with a hunter and he attempted to kill a Siberian Tiger, I'd take his firearm and beat him to death with it. Then leave his body for the scavengers. He'd get no warning. That "bark is worse than bite" thing doesn't make sense to me.

When I am with a social group that I believe to be honorable, tolerant, and considerate, I revere them. I feel that such a group is stronger than I am by myself. I am still strong on my own, and will be on my own rather than participate in a social group that is hollow.

I have been without a strong social group most of my life. If there's one present, it's awesome, and I feel I can finally relax a little. But if I don't have one around, I get by. I don't fall over from withdrawal.

I think what will help is trying to find out why you do what you do. You don't say, so I'm guessing you don't know.

Excellent point. The Enneagram material is about motivations, not judging particular or general responses to situations. If a phobic 6 and a counterphobic 6 are confronted with a situation, they will have extremely different responses, but a very similar motivation. Also, I suspect that two counterphobic 6's can have very different responses to a threatening situation. (Especially considering Tri-type)

On the other hand, if you are one of those Fi types, I suppose it's really unlikely that you are going to comfortably go into detail on your core motivations.
 
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The deal is this. I don't like the idea of a 6 who is loyal, needs groups of people to feel safe, being dependent on anything other then myself and maybe systems of thought is weak imo. (thou if I like the members I'll stand up for each and every individual when there is a need). I neither like the idea of being a pushover and of being too friendly with people :\ some people need a good thrashing sometimes imo...amoral bastards, also how can one trust them? Also if something scares me bad enough....I get defensive in a confrontational manner.

While I may seem aloof at first or disinterested and anxious (yeah my anxiety shows), I'm actually quite warm and friendly one on one with people...unless I dislike them for whatever reason, in which case I'm openly confrontational. Sometimes it comes off as if I was ESTJ type 8.

There was this event that made me think.
This guy was bullshitting my dad on a shady deal and my dad asked him to leave for the n-th time...:\ I was kinda nervous and angry so I snapped. You know those really bad type 8 ESTJ stereotypes? Yeah I was an exact copy of it...I yelled (my mother freaked out because of it), got in his face, was highly confrontational, accusatory and he ran from me with his tail between his legs.

It made me notice a pattern. I kinda do that with people. I'm stubborn and almost never listen either.
What you describe sounds a lot like my CP 6w5 friend. She's very withdrawn, has close friends but many secrets, doesn't seem to want to have to depend on anyone else, and does not trust easily. She's also a very good, funny, warm, affectionate friend. My guess is she's also SX first. When I was first learning about the Enneagram I actually thought she was an 8. She can be extremely confrontational and is very protective when she feels someone she cares about is under attack. In conflicts with her I feel that (in the moment) she won't take blame for her behaviours and can be really accusatory without having all the facts - the last time we got in a fight it turned out it could have all been avoided if she'd asked me one simple question before jumping to conclusions. It's been years since we've had a conflict, but they're unpleasant when they happen.

Now my idea of CP 6 is basically that of an idiot who rushes into danger is almost always argumentative and violent, all bark and no bite (or so the descriptions say) <---this seems idiotic, problematic and falls very short from ideal :\ I also hate barking...-.- lmao.
I've definitely seen some people like you describe, but I actually see CP 6's more as usually harder to get close to, much more independent, more closed off and private than phobic 6's, people who generally don't want input from others, but can be surprisingly reactive if they feel threatened, wronged, or under attack. Overall they seem much more private than the phobic 6's I've met. I have three 6w5's in my life who swing more on the CP side of things, while my 6w7 boyfriend is definitely much more phobic.

I'm wondering if some of the descriptions make you angry because you relate to them more than you want to admit.
 

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There are different brands of CP6s just like there are different brands of the other types. Like you said, instinctual variant also matters, so people can come off very different depending on that.


I disagree with the idea that CP6s just rush into confrontations without really thinking about it. I'd say maybe on the outside it looks like they haven't thought about it but have put a fair amount of time into the action. I know that I've read alot about the CP6w5 always watching and collecting info front the environment around them. I identify alot with this behavior. When Im first introduced to a situation, I come off as very quiet, almost shy like but Im not shy at all. Im simply observing the enviornment and taking in info before I decide how I will engage it. Just because I don't react to something immediately doesn't mean I didn't notice it. It could be the smallest inconsistency, and I will flag it and file it away for a later date but at the time it will look like I didn't even notice. This behavior happens when I think someone is lying or trying to manipulate me. They think that I haven't noticed and are thus pulling the wool over my eyes when in reality I picked it up the first time and am just gaining enough proof to reinforce the hunch I had.

This also happens with confrontation. I naturally suppress the urge to flip the hell out on people, not because I am afraid but because I like to only get mad when it is "justified". By justified, I mean the person is skating on thin ice and the shit just broke through. I dislike it when people are easily angered or really confrontational. I think its rather tacky.

I turn into an ESTJ 8 when given power, but in case of an argument I am definitely a pissed off 6w5 and I will shred you into pieces.

I don't want to say that this occurence makes you a definite CP. YOu could be phobic. There is a sliding scale after all and people dont behave the same way in every situation and I'd like to think that no matter how nice or quiet or soft spoken any person is, everyone has a breaking point. Maybe you just hit yours?

CPs are usually more reserved, emotionally cold, less needy, and not really people persons. They also tend to push back against any form on control even if it is considered small scale.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
CPs are usually more reserved, emotionally cold, less needy, and not really people persons. They also tend to push back against any form on control even if it is considered small scale.
Shit...that's how I am IRL. I really hate control from other people, unless its my boss, well I hate it even then, but know to keep my mouth shut. I need the job.

I'll respond to everyone else as well once I get back from work.

@Paradigm

I could have just walked away from the situation I described, but I didn't for a few reasons. My dad is a pushover and we'd lose money (he is either E5 or E9, tend to think E9), I was afraid because they were taking everything apart in my dad's workshop...very intrusive people and I was also afraid they would come back...I know their type of people. They didn't take no for an answer. I also hate that type and they stepped over some values, broke our privacy and intruded in our home.

Regardless I'm usually confrontational like that when something is happening that I definitely don't like. Have been since I was a kid, thou looking back over the years I'd say I was phobic most of my life despite this. Maybe its also INFP Fi value reaction. It could be.
 

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@Rim

Does someone telling you what to do, even if you were going to do it in the first place, hit a nerve with you?
Can you naturally be bossy with other people but dislike it when its done to you?
Do you notice when rules are pointless, stupid, and a waste of time and then refuse to follow them?


I call the urge to rebel and/or topple something that represents authority an "itch". It could have nothing to do with me, but I have a need to interject myself into something when I feel like a person is being treated wrong by an authority figure and I love making authority seem stupid and obsolete. Though that could have something to do with a 5 wing. I don't know much about the CP6w7s
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
@Chipps

Does someone telling you what to do, even if you were going to do it in the first place, hit a nerve with you?

Yes. It kinda pisses me off. I also backtalk and do what I wanted anyway, unless its my boss at work.

Can you naturally be bossy with other people but dislike it when its done to you?

Yes. -.- sometimes, esp if I'm a bit annoyed. Otherwise I don't like bossing others around and prefer not to do it as much as possible.

Do you notice when rules are pointless, stupid, and a waste of time and then refuse to follow them?

Depends. They aren't pointless if I get to keep my job and can avoid unwanted trouble. Otherwise yeah.

I also like to challange the status quo and break up the peace esp if I see a person or a group of people being treated wrong or something stupid, amoral or riddiculous was said etc. It usually gets me into trouble and problems, but I do it regardless.
 

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@Rim

I identified with all of those answers. I can be bossy, but I don't really like it. Not because I feel bad, but because I prefer autonomy and to not be responsible for other people. Being "bossy" is bothersome.

You should look into counterphobia more. Like I said, I don't know much about the CP 6w7 and Im sure instinctual variant comes into it. Ask SOM what he thinks.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@Rim

I identified with all of those answers. I can be bossy, but I don't really like it. Not because I feel bad, but because I prefer autonomy and to not be responsible for other people. Being "bossy" is bothersome.

You should look into counterphobia more. Like I said, I don't know much about the CP 6w7 and Im sure instinctual variant comes into it. Ask SOM what he thinks.
^^; I remind SOM of Amy Lee...not sure what to make of it thou. How do I interpret it @Swordsman of Mana?
 

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@Rim
Anyone of any type can be anxious, fearful and weak at some point or another. 6 descriptions are very poorly worded. I have seen one titled "Type 6: The Coward". So, I don't blame you for finding them annoying. 6s have great capacity for courage. And, I think cp6s, in particular, are really strong and composed in emergencies and situations where quick and urgent action is required. I associate the type with sharp analytical minds, ability to counter unjust authority, ability to commit and question [when healthy, such skepticism can be very useful]. I don't associate being a cp6 with being a foolhardy idiot. A mature cp6 can embody forcefulness and action in ways many other types often struggle with. Counterphobia is about overcoming fear/anxiety. It's not about mindless daredevilry. Sure, it could result in such behaviour. But for a mature cp6, it would not.

It would be best to not take 6 descriptions as some sort of definitive statement on what you can/can't be. Most of them are flawed pieces of writing. That's all. A description can't change you. It's you who controls what you can/can't be, not a silly description;). So why react to it? :) I understand some annoyance and irritability, but if it's really hurting you within...you need to step back and realize that it's not worth your anger. Type 6 can be such a formidable type, and, it has is it's own set of strengths and challenges. And, these challenges don't make the type weak. And, I have certainly never seen a cp6 shaking like a leaf in a conflict or an emergency. The majority of them seem in control and prepared. I see that as a strength, not a weakness. I am sure you can see it the same way.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
@Rim
Anyone of any type can be anxious, fearful and weak at some point or another. 6 descriptions are very poorly worded. I have seen one titled "Type 6: The Coward". So, I don't blame you for finding them annoying. 6s have great capacity for courage. And, I think cp6s, in particular, are really strong and composed in emergencies and situations where quick and urgent action is required. I associate the type with sharp analytical minds, ability to counter unjust authority, ability to commit and question [when healthy, such skepticism can be very useful]. I don't associate being a cp6 with being a foolhardy idiot. A mature cp6 can embody forcefulness and action in ways many other types often struggle with. Counterphobia is about overcoming fear/anxiety. It's not about mindless daredevilry. Sure, it could result in such behaviour. But for a mature cp6, it would not.

It would be best to not take 6 descriptions as some sort of definitive statement on what you can/can't be. Most of them are flawed pieces of writing. That's all. A description can't change you. It's you who controls what you can/can't be, not a silly description;). So why react to it? :) I understand some annoyance and irritability, but if it's really hurting you within...you need to step back and realize that it's not worth your anger. Type 6 can be such a formidable type, and, it has is it's own set of strengths and challenges. And, these challenges don't make the type weak. And, I have certainly never seen a cp6 shaking like a leaf in a conflict or an emergency. The majority of them seem in control and prepared. I see that as a strength, not a weakness. I am sure you can see it the same way.
Thx Boss, you can be very uplifting when you try :) and you are right *sigh* no use getting worked up over crappy descriptions.
 

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There was this event that made me think. This guy was bullshitting my dad on a shady deal and my dad asked him to leave for the n-th time...:\ I was kinda nervous and angry so I snapped. You know those really bad type 8 ESTJ stereotypes? Yeah I was an exact copy of it...I yelled (my mother freaked out because of it), got in his face, was highly confrontational, accusatory and he ran from me with his tail between his legs.

It made me notice a pattern. I kinda do that with people. I'm stubborn and almost never listen either.
I'm relatively new at the enneagram business, but as I understand it, you seem like a standard CP 6. I've read that 6s are truth seekers and therefore are also able to detect lies and manipulation easily. We are also fearful. As CP, when we run into something that makes us uncomfortable or tense, instead of backing off to get away from the fear, we decide that the fear needs a good drop kick and confront it.

In your situation, I think that you recognized this guy was lying and trying to manipulate your dad into something unacceptable, which would piss off the truth side. It also made you fearful because it could hurt your dad financially and you don't want that. So I think what happened was that the tense feeling just built up within you until your CP kicked in and you decided that the source of unease/fear (the guy) needed to be dealt with and the fact that he was a bullshitter just made it easier to cuss him out.

I'm pretty sure I'm a 6w7 sx variant and I can totally identify with your situation. I'm pretty much easy going unless I feel manipulated, controlled or threatened. Then I get mad and will rebel on principle. Hopefully what I just said wasn't completely off or hard to understand. =)

As a side note, seems to me 6s take a lot of "upkeep" energy and whenever I start getting tired out from the day, the negative aspects are harder to "control" or keep at bay.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I'm relatively new at the enneagram business, but as I understand it, you seem like a standard CP 6. I've read that 6s are truth seekers and therefore are also able to detect lies and manipulation easily. We are also fearful. As CP, when we run into something that makes us uncomfortable or tense, instead of backing off to get away from the fear, we decide that the fear needs a good drop kick and confront it.

In your situation, I think that you recognized this guy was lying and trying to manipulate your dad into something unacceptable, which would piss off the truth side. It also made you fearful because it could hurt your dad financially and you don't want that. So I think what happened was that the tense feeling just built up within you until your CP kicked in and you decided that the source of unease/fear (the guy) needed to be dealt with and the fact that he was a bullshitter just made it easier to cuss him out.

I'm pretty sure I'm a 6w7 sx variant and I can totally identify with your situation. I'm pretty much easy going unless I feel manipulated, controlled or threatened. Then I get mad and will rebel on principle. Hopefully what I just said wasn't completely off or hard to understand. =)

As a side note, seems to me 6s take a lot of "upkeep" energy and whenever I start getting tired out from the day, the negative aspects are harder to "control" or keep at bay.
:\ yeah that may be true. Things do seem worse when I'm tired so can relate to that well enough. *shrug* but I don't look like a CP 6. I mean I look harmless and nice, not threatening or tough. I can switch like Jekyll and Hide in behaviour and attitude ^^ but :\ still <.< don't look the part...or I'm unaware that I do? Never see myself when I'm doing the CP thing...hmm.
 

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I would say over time my counterphobia has developed into something quite profound, I have been told by quite a few people that I have an inner strength but because of my inner doubts, I question if I am really strong at all. But times have shown how I have been brave and resilient in the face of life's troubles and adversities. I've been through shit and come out stronger the other side even though I didn't really have much choice in the matter at the time, I will and have courageously stood up in front of a group of people whom were being closedminded and unfair, I am like a bull sometimes in these moments with not a care in the world if I am liked or not because what I am saying comes from a deep place and I mean every word of it.
 
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