Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi ENTPs,

I'm testing an hypothesis.

Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) that this is your experience of acquiring knowledge on a day-to-day using intuition:

"Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired"

Thanks,
Sun18
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
Hi ENTPs,

I'm testing an hypothesis.

Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) that this is your experience of acquiring knowledge on a day-to-day using intuition:

"Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired"

Thanks,
Sun18
that's not what intuition means in mbti. if you are testing to see how many "intuitives" are very intuitive compared to sensors, you might be disappointed. at least by that definition.

edit: PS, I used Intuition while responding to your post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
MBTI describes it like:
Intuition (N)
Paying the most attention to impressions or the meaning and patterns of the information I get. I would rather learn by thinking a problem through than by hands-on experience. I'm interested in new things and what might be possible, so that I think more about the future than the past. I like to work with symbols or abstract theories, even if I don't know how I will use them. I remember events more as an impression of what it was like than as actual facts or details of what happened.

My impression:

My current theory (and I have not yet shared this), is that it has to do with the way your brain saves & processes information.
I think Intuitive types tend to "Save" a more "abstract" information set. Meaning it saves rather "properties" that can be used to make connections easier with other saved data. So high retrieval, but a low set of information.

I think this is because Intuitives tend to have a big focus on predicting the future. While sensory types tend to be focused on the "current events". Meaning for example:

- Sensing types tend to take actions that have the best outcome in the current situation. (ignoring the future)
- Intuitive types tend to take actions that have the best outcome in the future. (ignoring the present)

Sensing types tend to save more robust information that is more accurate but less linked.
This seems to be consistent with the sort of memory Intuitives have. For example:

- I tend to never remember dates, names, etc. But I can read something once and use it to construct completely new theories based on that. And there's always something "lingering". I am very specific with the kind of information that gets "saved" and most of it seems more like "in the back of your mind" kind of logic than hard layered facts. More an "I think it's this but I need to Google just to make sure". I cannot learn a wordlist from my head. But if someone used interesting words and explained to me once I will never forget them.
- Sensory types tend to remember exact dates, names, etc. But they tend to not use this information to process other information. This means they make connections between information slower. But it makes the information available so much more precise.

I see this a lot when I'm around my parents. My brother is also an Intuïtive type and we have many moments where we look at each other on something where we just "made the connection" while our parents tend to be completely oblivious. On their defense. We can be totally oblivious to the current situation. I tend to have this emotionally, he tends to have this logically (he's ENFP). Sometimes we are to focus on the "possibilities" and "future" that we can forget what needs to be done now and prioritize. Or better said, we tend to prioritize in a way that is not necessarily good for us in the short run. We rather spend 4 days figuring out and 2 days working. While the sensing type tends to be busy because of the high sense of "current urgency". Which can work out in both directions.

Also, Sensory types tend to store "direct practical knowledge". If X does this then Y does that.
Intuïtives tend to be "what happens if I do this, I think Y will happen". Sometimes when I tend to explain this. I get a backlash from sensing types thinking I'm trying to make it sound like intuïtive is an advantage or something superior. It's not.

Nature is a very cautious "experimenter". I think this is why most types are Sensory instead of Intuïtive (because who would actually finish something otherwise?). Trying new things can be dangerous and potentially hurt more than it improves. Furthermore, it avoids that current things get done. But on the other hand, we need to evolve and get better and try new things. Nature does the same with IQ, etc. Nature tries to keep everything in a good balance. And we need all of it. But some of us tend to look at it like there is a wall in between or something.

Which is some part understandably? Whenever I'm using Ne quite a lot around Sensing types it wears them out. (As does talking about the same connections, again and again, tires me out). I get annoyed if you're going to say 24 times the food is good and the weather is good. As much as they tend to get annoyed by "what would happen if" (insert 1424 possibilities).

Ne: the interest in making a lot of connections in your head so the least amount of action needs to be taken.
Se: the interest of making the connection best for the current situation so action can be taken asap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Hi ENTPs,

I'm testing an hypothesis.

Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) that this is your experience of acquiring knowledge on a day-to-day using intuition:

"Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired"

Thanks,
Sun18
Ne isn’t like that at all. Its about making connections between data points in a variety of ways. You can examine how everything connects together to map how things function and then use it fill in the holes, and you can also make out of context connections to allow you to see alternate possibilities, ie tanscontextual or tangential thinking. Its all about generating more data from data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
I forgot to make an ending statement (because it feels logical from here on).
I do not think it's a percentage. I think it's a different way that your brain prioritizes saving/retrieving information.
Problem is you cannot state a flat percentage on it because you are looking at it like it's two dimensional.

I think it works a little bit more like this (if you want to envision it):

Basically when there are resources free (you're not working mentally intensively), and there is something "New".
You will try to do something new. I think this works like some kind of multi-queue that then gets checked off by the other stacks. But even between the different queue's, there can be prioritization. Meaning that in extreme situations it can be that certain stacks filter information out beforehand. Also the "deepest" stacks tend to have higher priorities IF they trigger an error. But the deeper stacks tend to be used less because they take A LOT LONGER to process. Also, introversion processing takes a LOT longer but tends to be "more of value".

For example, I do not notice quickly that something is wrong by Si, but if I do... It becomes priority 1.
Me (Si): Never notice that it's getting cold. But if they can FIX it, they fix it NOW.
Me (Fe): Don't quickly feel like they have done something wrong, but if they did, they fix it ASAP.


Visual representation:

So it takes some visualization/sensor/words/anything that starts the process:


---------------------------------------

Idea A:
Ne -> Maybe it's A
Ti -> Yes OK
Fe -> Yes OK
Si -> Yes OK

Save information A as "truth".

---------------------------------------

Idea B:
Ne -> Maybe it's B
Ti -> No NONONO because ...
Fe -> Don't process
Si -> Don't process

Unresolved, place B back on queue.

---------------------------------------

Idea B:
Ne -> B unresolved because it is not logical: find correlating information C (now it depends on storage model).
Ti -> Yes
Fe -> Yes
Si -> Yes

Save C information as truth.

---------------------------------------

If another stack complains (something is wrong). Then it gets sent back to the front of the queue with the "reason of why this is wrong". Just to be completely reprocessed until we have a "validation" of truth. Or basically said. Our brains go like "yes, this is true (enough)".

As long as this is not flagged as processed. It gets sent back on the queue.
A stack can also raise an alarm. This makes the queue prioritize the current idea.
The prioritization probably also goes "through the queue".

As it seems that sensory input has priority (you know, gotta walk). You now also know why you put the music off when you need to park somewhere difficult. It takes away too much priority on the stack and your body reacts on it for protection because it is overflowing with information to process. And it seems quite good at this. We also need this to survive. Sometimes a half-ass decision is better than no decision. This is when the brain decides we don't have time to process everything so it starts using tricks to process things faster. You can do this like the example I'll give under this.

---------------------------------------

Example time!

Most ENTP's I know do this with food (I use food because it's an easy decisionmaking example).

Step 1: Ne chooses what: Try something new!
If the queue is free (not processing other / more important things). It will try the new thing! Ne wins.
But what if the queue is busy? You're having a project and you are thinking about that. Suddenly you are up to the counter.
What would it be sir?

Step 2: Ti chooses what: Use the internal list! (
Saved something up for you. These are the dishes you liked before:
- AA
- BB

That you conveniently already categorized. So you just pick whatever is top on the list.
But wait! Number 1 and number 2 have equal taste value... I don't know what to choose!

Step 3: Fe: I'm looking at the list and uhhh...
Step 4: Si: I'm looking at the list and uhhh... Give me 5 minutes!

I don't have 5 minutes. So the message gets prioritization in the queue.
(Imagine this happening from the processing of the sensory input, there is an urge to it).
So it gets put on the stack again. Fe is good at comparing is X better then Y. But it's not good at just knowing.

At this point, you will see that because Ti did not decide and having it think something up will take too long. It will go through the list with ALL of the items (through Fe because this is FASTER). Just so it can keep a score "yes, no, yes". Until 1 thing is "WON". Now the part where it really gets complicated is when you start realizing that extraverted processing takes less time! So our brain is smart. And whenever it needs to make a decision fast (like NOW) it prioritizes the Exterior stacks. (Like when you do not expect it but need to respond immediately).

Whatever if filtered throughout the Exterior stacks gets put back on the stack. This is why we can also "miss" things completely.
Now with the "rest" of the items. It goes through the stack again. This is sort of filtering for gaining processing > efficiency.

Ti did not provide an answer fast enough. So we just PUMP through. "Pizza vs Lettuce" what brings the best emotion Fe?
Oh okay, Pizza -> Places pizza back in the stack. Pizza goes through stack and Ti says: "dude, this gonna make you fat & it's going to make your stomach sick. Pick something else. -> back to the stack.

I think until all stacks have agreed you are just "thinking". If the pressure of decisionmaking is high it starts prioritizing more and more, possibly filtering out the best solution for the quickest. It might mean that you do not make many Ne cycles and go with whatever fits for sake of self-preservation. Or you might loop and stand still. Completely. That's because some people their queue gets "stacked" infinitely. This is also why they learn people to deal with critical situations! Because if you have trained on it. You have prioritization set up in your head by training and rules. Which is good to rely on in extreme situations so it gives a pathway where you saw none before.

So how much Ne do you use?
I think it really depends on the necessity. I will use more Ne when I need it. I will use less Ne when I do not need it. The stronger the Ne pulls like 15 related items on the stack. While a weak Ne pulls 2-3 related items on the stack. And I think it's really really difficult to go and put a percentage of usage on that. Considering item X might put 10 more items on the stack (depending on how much information is stored) (what is the physical limitation) (your current knowledge) (are there other priorities?) etc. There are just too many variables. Impossible and utter "speculation". Which is exactly how I look at IQ tests. I also do not think that one person just has 4 stacks. I think it's more of preferential treatment. Every stack is born out of the necessity of the problem of the previous one. You cannot use one stack more without losing power on the other. The older we get the more balanced out the stacks become (fine balancing). Not every pattern of stacks is possible because that would become unprocessable (aka infinite looping) so you don't do it. This is probably something that just grew out of control from when you were young.

This is why you see ENTP's change so drastically from young to old. Most tend to go from class-clown-interrupter-2000 to altruistic. They just shifted some of their Ne usages into the other stacks. Which helps the rest! Possibly that is because we have processed enough "floating" information so things get processed a lot quicker. And it is just because we can retrieve more information. And the necessity of Ne becomes lower to "draw a conclusion" because we can filter previous occurrences out by the Ti list.

Also, two more things which Ne made me think of:

ADHD. This seems like whatever they stick on people who are having a WAY to big of S or N stack at the front. (If it's F, we tend to call it borderline? Idk..). I've known a few people who were considered ADHD patients. Do you know how a few of them got out? They got out by refuting the idea it exists. And learned to develop themselves. (I'm talking specific for them, Idk about others so do not take this as a "truth claim").

They never understood why they were poking the world around but they just did. Seriously if you hear them talk about it. It creeps you out. It's like missing a part of yourself. But I guess finding yourself is the journey we have all set sail into :).

Migraine. I used to have a shitload of migraines. This happened almost exclusively when I was under stress (and infinitely looping by Ne). Which always ended in me and a crying headache while my brain felt as it was beïng hit by a hammer every X seconds. The older I become the rarer they become. I think this is because I tend to not fall into infinite looping as much anymore.

It's all still a theory tho :). Never shared it before but.. Why not?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
Ne isn’t like that at all. Its about making connections between data points in a variety of ways. You can examine how everything connects together to map how things function and then use it fill in the holes, and you can also make out of context connections to allow you to see alternate possibilities, ie tanscontextual or tangential thinking. Its all about generating more data from data.
precisely. Sensors take in, and learn, information directly via their senses. what they can see, touch, hear, taste, smell, etc. Intuition is gaining information indirectly by the recognition of patterns.

I may butcher this, but the folks over at Personality Hacker likened it to the Wizard of Oz. The sensor sees the curtain and, to know what's behind it, must peek behind it. The intuitive sees the curtain and recoginizes the patterns that allow him or her to see, guess, or imagine, what's behind the curtain without direct observation.
It is something like that. And that's how intuition more or less works. We don't see everything the way a sensor does. We see the patterns.

I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that I am actually an Ni-dom rather than Ne-dom... that I am an INxJ. sorting out the functions and assigning them to what you do or don't do can be a difficult task. Why can't there be a type with both Ne and Ni in the primary stack :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
precisely. Sensors take in, and learn, information directly via their senses. what they can see, touch, hear, taste, smell, etc. Intuition is gaining information indirectly by the recognition of patterns.

I may butcher this, but the folks over at Personality Hacker likened it to the Wizard of Oz. The sensor sees the curtain and, to know what's behind it, must peek behind it. The intuitive sees the curtain and recoginizes the patterns that allow him or her to see, guess, or imagine, what's behind the curtain without direct observation.
It is something like that. And that's how intuition more or less works. We don't see everything the way a sensor does. We see the patterns.

I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that I am actually an Ni-dom rather than Ne-dom... that I am an INxJ. sorting out the functions and assigning them to what you do or don't do can be a difficult task. Why can't there be a type with both Ne and Ni in the primary stack :)
I’ve had few conscious Ni moments and its weird AF! Shit just pops into your head and you have no idea of how it got there. Its an answer with no workings and no way of proving its correct.
 
  • Like
Reactions: knife and Sun18

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I’ve had few conscious Ni moments and its weird AF! Shit just pops into your head and you have no idea of how it got there. Its an answer with no workings and no way of proving its correct.
I identify as an INFJ, and this happens to me all the time. For example, I will dream that a woman that I've not seen in years is 3 months pregnant, and I later on find out that it's true. I may not need or care about this information.

Sun18
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
I’ve had few conscious Ni moments and its weird AF! Shit just pops into your head and you have no idea of how it got there. Its an answer with no workings and no way of proving its correct.
Yeah. It's like I half-identify with the traits of both Ni and Ne, the good and the bad of both. So I'm not just cherry picking the best of both worlds.
It doesn't help that the language used to describe Ni and Ne often leaves much to be desired in the ease of interpretation. Without being a psychologist or something, I wish authors would give more illustrations.

like this:
  • Ni relies on subjective impressions of (time-related) patterns

what the heck does that mean?
I can break it down and each individual word I understand. but put them together in a sentence, and I'm not sure what concept is trying to be communicated.

I do wonder how many of us are mistyped because we can't understand the language and jargon being used to describe the functions. and so we cling onto the functions that are both easiest to understand and identify with when a function that is hard to understand would be more identifiable, if only people didn't work so hard to sound intelligent while describing them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
and based on this: https://introvertdear.com/news/infj-or-intj-personality-ways-tell-apart/
if I am Ni-dom, I identify mostly with INFJ in all the examples. but at the same time, I am not sure I am INFJ. While I do believe Fe belongs in my stack, it just seems like INFJs are described as being better with people than I am. But INTJs are much worse with people than I am. But maybe I was just in an environment that caused my Fe to be slower to develop? or maybe my Fe belongs in a tertiary position. But like the author of the article, I was always on the sensitive side.

But if characters like Gandalf, Dumbledore, etc. are truly believed to be INFJs... my abilities are on par with theirs at similar points in their lives.

If I could create a new type, I feel like my personal type would be something like Ni-Ti-Fe-Se.

edit:
maybe... I'm INFJ, but I have spent a great deal of my years (due to circumstances) in a Tertiary Loop. I feel like I can be too sensitive and moody, and care too much about my comfort/feelings, and the comfort/feelings of others, to be cold, rational, business-like INTJ. And I'm not really ashamed to put my feelings out there until I have trouble expressing them and feel embarrassed. so I only tend to share them with someone I trust.
I've tried journaling, but I have to share my emotions/feelings with a human being to be rid of them. writing to a journal about them doesn't cut them loose the way people online describe. but I can send a text in 10 seconds to a person, have no clue whether or not they have or will actually read it... and feel instantly better.

edit2: number 4 in that link, depending on how you interpret it, could go either way for me. but number 5 I am back to INFJ. I mentioned before about moodiness etc. my work ethic is dependant on my emotional energy. if I get fussed at by my boss unjustly, I'm not going to be doing a whole lot until I find a coworker I can vent to. my emotional energy is in the negative then.
but I can be a bit linear and methodical. unless I don't understand what they mean about INFJ's holistic approach.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Ni generates its data from the subconscious, while Ne always starts with a conscious data point. The easiest way to spot the difference is the Ni users demand serenity because distractions prevent them from “hearing” their subconscious Ni. Ne Doms on the other had love chaos in their environment. The disorder provides the seed that Ne requires, and we have no problem loosing ourselves to abstract thoughts in the noisiest of environments. I’m always zoning out when deep in thought, with the TV blaring, much to the annoyance of my INFJ wife :)

You also need to consider that there are clearly two types of ENTP that socionics identifies but MBTI does not. You have the typical Extrovert ILE-Ne with Enneagram 7, as well as the ambivert/bimodal ILE-Ti which is much rarer and tends to be more in the Enneagram 6/5 range (From what I can gather). Instinct also has a major effect but is usually mistyped in combined test. Its simply a matter of whether you desire to be apart from the herd (SP) lost in the heard (SO) or have a partner (SX). Sx seek individual connections, Sp seek seclusion or are ambivalent to connection, SO seeks immersion with others.
Once you look at the overview its easy to see how you can get a less feeling INFJ with say Type 5 and Sp instinct, Or a sensitive introvert looking ENTP (Sx are sensitive to criticism from personal contact, So are sensitive to all contacts, Sp are insensitive to all contacts.)

By the way have you have yourself down as a 6w5, can I ask how you figured it out, testing, introspection focused on the fear drivers, or something else?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Yeah. It's like I half-identify with the traits of both Ni and Ne, the good and the bad of both. So I'm not just cherry picking the best of both worlds.
It doesn't help that the language used to describe Ni and Ne often leaves much to be desired in the ease of interpretation. Without being a psychologist or something, I wish authors would give more illustrations.

like this:
  • Ni relies on subjective impressions of (time-related) patterns

what the heck does that mean?
I can break it down and each individual word I understand. but put them together in a sentence, and I'm not sure what concept is trying to be communicated.

I do wonder how many of us are mistyped because we can't understand the language and jargon being used to describe the functions. and so we cling onto the functions that are both easiest to understand and identify with when a function that is hard to understand would be more identifiable, if only people didn't work so hard to sound intelligent while describing them.

I always focus on understanding the core principles of any system, then I generate my own solutions with a focus on elegant simplicity. It is a delicate balancing act between specificity to enable differentiation and being broad and detailed enough to capture the audience. Hence the need to tailor solutions from first principles on an individual basis, which is rather simple for a Ne dom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
a
Ni generates its data from the subconscious, while Ne always starts with a conscious data point. The easiest way to spot the difference is the Ni users demand serenity because distractions prevent them from “hearing” their subconscious Ni. Ne Doms on the other had love chaos in their environment. The disorder provides the seed that Ne requires, and we have no problem loosing ourselves to abstract thoughts in the noisiest of environments. I’m always zoning out when deep in thought, with the TV blaring, much to the annoyance of my INFJ wife :)
based on this I feel i more typically identify with Ni
You also need to consider that there are clearly two types of ENTP that socionics identifies but MBTI does not. You have the typical Extrovert ILE-Ne with Enneagram 7, as well as the ambivert/bimodal ILE-Ti which is much rarer and tends to be more in the Enneagram 6/5 range (From what I can gather). Instinct also has a major effect but is usually mistyped in combined test. Its simply a matter of whether you desire to be apart from the herd (SP) lost in the heard (SO) or have a partner (SX). Sx seek individual connections, Sp seek seclusion or are ambivalent to connection, SO seeks immersion with others.
Once you look at the overview its easy to see how you can get a less feeling INFJ with say Type 5 and Sp instinct, Or a sensitive introvert looking ENTP (Sx are sensitive to criticism from personal contact, So are sensitive to all contacts, Sp are insensitive to all contacts.)

By the way have you have yourself down as a 6w5, can I ask how you figured it out, testing, introspection focused on the fear drivers, or something else?
wait are you talking to me? if so, i took the test many many years ago. don't know if i am a 6w5 or not. i've never invested too much enneagram so i don't know what you mean by fear drivers and such. mbti has always given me enough to think about.

https://www.personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/159125-infj-6w5.html

i identify with this description. minus the certainty of being labeled INFJ. just the traits. probably what you are referring to as fear drivers seem to apply to me. As in the third paragraph, I'm always predicting negative outcomes and confrontations and so forth. and bracing myself for them. living in anxiety of stuff that has not or probably will not happen, but I can see them happening, and playing them out in my head, planning my response. like a confrontation with my boss, etc. I'm beginning to come to a point where I practicing a sort of mindfulness. stopping myself from worrying about these things that haven't and might not happen.

They are extremely cautious in social engagements in order to avoid losing friends that they don't even have yet.

I could see this applying to me in certain contexts, and not in others. I feel like this absolutely does describe me, but despite my cautiousness, i can still be entp/intj like in turning people off/away without even noticing. little bit of both. though i'm getting better with age.

INFJ 6w5s may find themselves forming surrogate families among friends to feed their need to belong and to make others feel like they belong.

omg. is this not normal? i've had so many surrogate families over the years... and i do enjoy the feeling of belonging i've gotten from people who like me enough, or see something in me that they "adopt" me into their families.

Se: Extraverted Sensing for the INFJ 6w5 is borderline nonexistent consciously. 6w5 are mentally oriented so INFJ 6w5s are extremely likely to ignore both physical reality AND the present moment. Funnily enough, strong sensory impressions (loud sounds, harsh tastes, or too much feeling) may be source of fear and stress for the INFJ 6w5 because it forces their minds to actually live in awareness of the present moment. INFJ 6w5s are usually future oriented and when they're not looking at the future, they're analyzing the past for information, or perceiving the present through their intuition which IS NOT living in the present moment.


the other night a storm came through. my neighbors were like "I slept like a baby"
me, I can't sleep through storms. the wind and rain beating against the windows... I am forced to live in awareness of the present moment. and the present moment is making me imagine all the horrible things that are going to happen to my house, and will miss, if I fall asleep.
I can't sleep in a car while someone is driving. every slightest jerk of the wheel that I normally don't feel with my eyes open, is magnified when my eyes are closed. and I panic. and my imagination goes crazy with anxiety that if I fall asleep we'll crash. (though not because I'm sleeping).

i get tormented, trapped analyzing past mistakes as well. the way one poster describes.

INFJ 6w5 very well could be me. if you want to explore that, i'm interested now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
a
based on this I feel i more typically identify with Ni

wait are you talking to me? if so, i took the test many many years ago. don't know if i am a 6w5 or not. i've never invested too much enneagram so i don't know what you mean by fear drivers and such. mbti has always given me enough to think about.

https://www.personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/159125-infj-6w5.html

i identify with this description. minus the certainty of being labeled INFJ. just the traits. probably what you are referring to as fear drivers seem to apply to me. As in the third paragraph, I'm always predicting negative outcomes and confrontations and so forth. and bracing myself for them. living in anxiety of stuff that has not or probably will not happen, but I can see them happening, and playing them out in my head, planning my response. like a confrontation with my boss, etc. I'm beginning to come to a point where I practicing a sort of mindfulness. stopping myself from worrying about these things that haven't and might not happen.


I could see this applying to me in certain contexts, and not in others. I feel like this absolutely does describe me, but despite my cautiousness, i can still be entp/intj like in turning people off/away without even noticing. little bit of both. though i'm getting better with age.


omg. is this not normal? i've had so many surrogate families over the years... and i do enjoy the feeling of belonging i've gotten from people who like me enough, or see something in me that they "adopt" me into their families.



the other night a storm came through. my neighbors were like "I slept like a baby"
me, I can't sleep through storms. the wind and rain beating against the windows... I am forced to live in awareness of the present moment. and the present moment is making me imagine all the horrible things that are going to happen to my house, and will miss, if I fall asleep.
I can't sleep in a car while someone is driving. every slightest jerk of the wheel that I normally don't feel with my eyes open, is magnified when my eyes are closed. and I panic. and my imagination goes crazy with anxiety that if I fall asleep we'll crash. (though not because I'm sleeping).

i get tormented, trapped analyzing past mistakes as well. the way one poster describes.

INFJ 6w5 very well could be me. if you want to explore that, i'm interested now.
Yep, that very much sounds like type 6, which is essentially fear of what lies in the external world. I’m just getting into enneagram myself and unlike MBTI it actually provides a guide to self help, however its often poorly explained and the stereotyping and testing often gets in the way. The hard part is actually identifying your core fear, by that I mean the almost subconscious terror that lies beneath all other fears. It will be the fear that has always been with you, and has a potential effect on your cognitive function usage as i will try to demonstrate. (Maybe poorly)

So in the Head/Fear triad of 5, 6 and 7 you have three different ways of interpreting and dealing with the perceived problem of why is the world unsafe. Type 7 act in a counterphobic fashion, they engage the fear and revel in the exploration of the world as it proves to them the fear is false. Type 5 seek Knowledge of the world as they interpret their lack of knowledge as the reason they are disempowered and afraid. So when they feel knowledgeable they stop fearing as they have power/control. For them Knowledge=Power.
Type 6 interpret their fear as there is something in the world that is out to get them. They try to overcome the fear by using resources to defend against. There are many different defensive techniques, collecting intelligence, (knowledge gathering), hiding from threats (such as people avoidance/introversion) collecting allies (making friends/extroversion/herd defence). So how 6s behave can be very different, but if you combine Enneagram with cognitive function preference they you can see obvious methods that each type will tend to employ because their cognitive functions make them good at that technique.

So lets look at how those 3 Enneagrams would interact with an ENTPs cognitive functions.
Ne generates new possibilities, For a type 7 who embraces uncertainty this is complementary. However type 5 and 6 are types who seek certainty to overcome their fear, and thus Ne is in conflict with their fear. Consequently you would expect a 5 and 6 to lean towards using their Ti judgement function in preference to Ne, and thus come across as more introverted and INTP like. 6 with their security issues are also focused on detail, so they tend to also develop the Si more than other ENTPs, which is pretty much the definition of and ILE-Ti. Of course 6s could also use the Fe to make allies and avoid trouble, making look more F like and aware of others.

The security fear of the 6 also means that they are very focused on their environment as the are always looking out for danger. So the normal Ni likes quite, Ne likes chaos is not going to hold for a 6, because chaos is a threat.

So in your case you need to use the expansive thinking = Ne, reductive thinking = Ni. Ni dom’s tend to have a very visual imagination and tend to fixate on a single possibility.(like the infamous Ni Ti loop) ENTPs seem to have more informational thoughts and tend think of all the different things that could go wrong (which sounds like you).

Also I found this video really useful for understanding the differences,
I’m totally like the ENTP, while I can see my INFJ wife using her Ni the same way the INTJ guy does.



If you wan’t to get into enneagram, here is a nice little article on the difficulty of the journey.
https://personalityhacker.com/an-enneagram-journey-type-tritype-and-instincts/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
Yep, that very much sounds like type 6, which is essentially fear of what lies in the external world. I’m just getting into enneagram myself and unlike MBTI it actually provides a guide to self help, however its often poorly explained and the stereotyping and testing often gets in the way. The hard part is actually identifying your core fear, by that I mean the almost subconscious terror that lies beneath all other fears. It will be the fear that has always been with you, and has a potential effect on your cognitive function usage as i will try to demonstrate. (Maybe poorly)

So in the Head/Fear triad of 5, 6 and 7 you have three different ways of interpreting and dealing with the perceived problem of why is the world unsafe. Type 7 act in a counterphobic fashion, they engage the fear and revel in the exploration of the world as it proves to them the fear is false. Type 5 seek Knowledge of the world as they interpret their lack of knowledge as the reason they are disempowered and afraid. So when they feel knowledgeable they stop fearing as they have power/control. For them Knowledge=Power.
Type 6 interpret their fear as there is something in the world that is out to get them. They try to overcome the fear by using resources to defend against. There are many different defensive techniques, collecting intelligence, (knowledge gathering), hiding from threats (such as people avoidance/introversion) collecting allies (making friends/extroversion/herd defence). So how 6s behave can be very different, but if you combine Enneagram with cognitive function preference they you can see obvious methods that each type will tend to employ because their cognitive functions make them good at that technique.

So lets look at how those 3 Enneagrams would interact with an ENTPs cognitive functions.
Ne generates new possibilities, For a type 7 who embraces uncertainty this is complementary. However type 5 and 6 are types who seek certainty to overcome their fear, and thus Ne is in conflict with their fear. Consequently you would expect a 5 and 6 to lean towards using their Ti judgement function in preference to Ne, and thus come across as more introverted and INTP like. 6 with their security issues are also focused on detail, so they tend to also develop the Si more than other ENTPs, which is pretty much the definition of and ILE-Ti. Of course 6s could also use the Fe to make allies and avoid trouble, making look more F like and aware of others.

The security fear of the 6 also means that they are very focused on their environment as the are always looking out for danger. So the normal Ni likes quite, Ne likes chaos is not going to hold for a 6, because chaos is a threat.
I don't like new years eve and fourth of july because the kid next door pops crazy fireworks. not only is it loud (bah humbug), but I'm afraid he is going to damage my property. Not that I don't have good reason, since he has already broken a windown and run over my mailbox, but still. I can't sleep, and I'm afraid if I do, he might set my house on fire. ugh chaos.
So in your case you need to use the expansive thinking = Ne, reductive thinking = Ni. Ni dom’s tend to have a very visual imagination and tend to fixate on a single possibility.(like the infamous Ni Ti loop) ENTPs seem to have more informational thoughts and tend think of all the different things that could go wrong (which sounds like you).

Also I found this video really useful for understanding the differences,
I’m totally like the ENTP, while I can see my INFJ wife using her Ni the same way the INTJ guy does.



If you wan’t to get into enneagram, here is a nice little article on the difficulty of the journey.
https://personalityhacker.com/an-enneagram-journey-type-tritype-and-instincts/
picture 1: cold lonely... stormy... I feel like I match the Ni-guy. ENTP guy's analysis is dull to me. I feel like they both came to the conclusion. but Ni came to it with just an impression, not an analysis. if that is the test, I think Ni for me. I don't sit there and analyze it like the ENTP did. And to be honest, that way of analyzing it is so foreign to me, I find it difficult to believe he didn't deliberately, go out of his way, to overthink it in order to sound intelligent, arty, or whatever. You know what I mean. I just looked at it and said, looking at this picture, it summons feelings, gives me the impression of cold and loneliness. I like the post-apocalyptic response as well, if I had taken a bit longer, I probably would have come up with that myself.

I started listening to the personality hacker podcast, and in one of them, they said we can trip ourselves up on tests and self-typing because we can get fixated on our tertiary function. that would make sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
I don't like new years eve and fourth of july because the kid next door pops crazy fireworks. not only is it loud (bah humbug), but I'm afraid he is going to damage my property. Not that I don't have good reason, since he has already broken a windown and run over my mailbox, but still. I can't sleep, and I'm afraid if I do, he might set my house on fire. ugh chaos.


picture 1: cold lonely... stormy... I feel like I match the Ni-guy. ENTP guy's analysis is dull to me. I feel like they both came to the conclusion. but Ni came to it with just an impression, not an analysis. if that is the test, I think Ni for me. I don't sit there and analyze it like the ENTP did. And to be honest, that way of analyzing it is so foreign to me, I find it difficult to believe he didn't deliberately, go out of his way, to overthink it in order to sound intelligent, arty, or whatever. You know what I mean. I just looked at it and said, looking at this picture, it summons feelings, gives me the impression of cold and loneliness. I like the post-apocalyptic response as well, if I had taken a bit longer, I probably would have come up with that myself.

I started listening to the personality hacker podcast, and in one of them, they said we can trip ourselves up on tests and self-typing because we can get fixated on our tertiary function. that would make sense.
Well that certainly sounds INFJ like. Form impression (Ni), determine how you feel (Fe) then analyse (Ti). In comparison I perceive/look for patterns (Ne) analytically analyse (ti) consider connections (Ne) determine output of what to say (Ti with a Fe check over) then describe what I see and plan what else I could also talk about that related to it (more Ne). The NT support crew also have some good videos on how you interact with your subconscious/lower functions. I found their one about the blindspot function (Fi for ENTP/ Te for INFJ) to be true for me. Basically everyone uses every function but not consciously. When you look at your actions you can relate to using every one except the blind spot function. So Fi I cant relate to at all. Not sure If it applies to non NTs though.
It should also be mentioned that a Ni dom would expect to have a bit of Ne and vice versa, especially on a subconscious level where your Enneagram operates.
I’m guessing you could also look up inferior Si vs inferior Se as well.
 

·
Sharp Cutting Thing
Joined
·
9,675 Posts
It is a bit of a mistake IMO to assume that Sensors live in the present because Se is a very present-oriented function. Si is also a pattern-seeking function -- one, though, that depends on known experiences to see the patterns linking them together. Both Ni and Ne focus on pattern recognition to the exclusion of experience. A good way to think about this, I think, is that Si wants to use past experience to predict future phenomena; it tends to be heavily reliant on an underlyingly uniformitarianist metaphysics (this is a good example of my own Ne, by the way: I recalled there was a word for it, but did not recall what the word was, so I had to use Google to resolve the pattern in my head into the solution), but of course people are neither math nor molecules nor rocks; people tend to change a lot in their lifetimes, as they either get increasingly screwed up or actually find themselves. Si's biggest weakness, relative to Ni and Ne, is that it tends to demand something of other people that does not hold over a longer-term period to function properly. But that said, all the perception functions have strengths and weaknesses, and the more unhealthily a function is used the more its weaknesses become manifest.

For me, Ne is ultimately about seeing the pattern, and Ti sees details within the pattern. I think I tend to favor Ti somewhat, especially since I can get sidetracked by working out details that have caught my eye, but the world as I see it is a pattern first and foremost, and that sensate experience is only something bolted on the top. I'm fascinated by questions of knowing, of what knowledge is and what its limitations are, in large part because I think that the way I see the pattern is a sort of spiderweb of knowledge itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: polluxs

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
It is a bit of a mistake IMO to assume that Sensors live in the present because Se is a very present-oriented function. Si is also a pattern-seeking function -- one, though, that depends on known experiences to see the patterns linking them together. Both Ni and Ne focus on pattern recognition to the exclusion of experience. A good way to think about this, I think, is that Si wants to use past experience to predict future phenomena; it tends to be heavily reliant on an underlyingly uniformitarianist metaphysics (this is a good example of my own Ne, by the way: I recalled there was a word for it, but did not recall what the word was, so I had to use Google to resolve the pattern in my head into the solution), but of course people are neither math nor molecules nor rocks; people tend to change a lot in their lifetimes, as they either get increasingly screwed up or actually find themselves. Si's biggest weakness, relative to Ni and Ne, is that it tends to demand something of other people that does not hold over a longer-term period to function properly. But that said, all the perception functions have strengths and weaknesses, and the more unhealthily a function is used the more its weaknesses become manifest.

For me, Ne is ultimately about seeing the pattern, and Ti sees details within the pattern. I think I tend to favor Ti somewhat, especially since I can get sidetracked by working out details that have caught my eye, but the world as I see it is a pattern first and foremost, and that sensate experience is only something bolted on the top. I'm fascinated by questions of knowing, of what knowledge is and what its limitations are, in large part because I think that the way I see the pattern is a sort of spiderweb of knowledge itself.
I know it's a bit of a stretch (to flatly say "live in the present"). But I still find the difference to be big "enough" (personally) to make a distinction. Although I'll definitely keep that in mind while explaining because you are right.

I still don't think Si is something that "keeps" you in the future. It's more of think of it once kind of thing. Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that people who score higher on sensing are never looking at the future. It just feels more of a "think about it once" and they have their decision kind of a thing it's done. It's more something that enables them to create a decision in the present. While most N types tend to be so much more focused constantly on it (at the cost of the present off course). I've noticed this extremely considering I have 2 families with one kind a lot of N-types and the other a lot of S-types. The resulting conversations are clearly differently focused and also the lifestyles are opposites.

Topics:
Sensing: busy with the food, clothes, colors, what happened yesterday
N-types: busy with abstract topics (politics, history, psychology, ...)

Lifestyles:
Sensing: order, clear guidelines, clear code, a lot of things are "fixed".
N-types: chaos, we'll see on the moment, almost no rules, everything is possible.

Discussions:
Sensing: who did not follow X rule of the house! How dare you!
N-types: you disagree with my intellectual statement? How dare you!

It's not that neither is never talking about the other topics. But clearly if you leave them at there preferential talks you see this end result. Also if you switch up the topics they get tired of the topic after a while as I get bored by talking about "mundane" or present things. I hold no interest in that, it's just something I "gotta do". I do not enjoy talking about the present for a very long time.

P.S. I agree with all your other topics :p
P.P.S. I would never claim that X type is better then Y type. I agree that every stack has his ups and downs.. In the end it's how we go through life with it as an individual :).
 

·
Sharp Cutting Thing
Joined
·
9,675 Posts
I still don't think Si is something that "keeps" you in the future. It's more of think of it once kind of thing. Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that people who score higher on sensing are never looking at the future. It just feels more of a "think about it once" and they have their decision kind of a thing it's done. It's more something that enables them to create a decision in the present. While most N types tend to be so much more focused constantly on it (at the cost of the present off course). I've noticed this extremely considering I have 2 families with one kind a lot of N-types and the other a lot of S-types. The resulting conversations are clearly differently focused and also the lifestyles are opposites.
I think you misunderstood where I was going with my description of Si. Because Si is dependent on past experience to predict future phenomena, it -- unlike the N functions -- is past-oriented. Its ability to predict the future is derivative of its past orientation; it is not sourced in being oriented towards the near future (as Ne is) or the far future (as Ni is).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
@Shrodingers drink

So I'm finally getting an opportunity to do some reading about enneagram, and while there are a few types I could relate to based on the "fear" mechanic or whatever, 6 so far seems to line up best with the fear mechanic, and, "direction of integration and disintegration".

I can't say that a stressed out me becomes an overachiever... but a stressed out me does become more aware (or in denial of???) with feelings of inadequacy and failure, and striving to achieve the things that would allow me to say that I am not a failure.
when I am heading towards health and growth, I do feel like the description of 9 embodies what I, at the least strive, to be.
receptive, reassuring, complacent, and resigned
deny their anger and instinctual energies as if to say, “What anger? I am not a person who gets angry.” Nines are the type most out of touch with their anger and instinctual energies, often feeling threatened by them. Of course, Nines get angry like everyone else, but try to stay out of their darker feelings by focusing on idealizations of their relationships and their world.

I definitely become more "ashamed" if I expressed feelings like anger. so I try to deny them and try to work on things like "mindfulness" and so forth in attempt to deny anger and "stay out of [my] darker feelings"
I'd describe it as, and the description of 9 reads as, becoming more zen-like, monk-like.

It seems weird that only 9s in their normal stage, and 6s aspire to be that way. Monks, Wizards, Jedi.
Or maybe I'm reading it incorrectly. But a 9 is what I strive to be, or I guess what I consider to be me at my best.

And I think I have the "sexual instinct". To be clear here as well, I identify with the traits that Im reading. not saying I am a sexual dynamo or something like that. They should rename it.
followed by self preservation and then social is least developed for me I would think.

I'm uncertain about wings, but for now I'm sticking with a 5 wing.

I don't know though. I feel like just giving up on trying to figure out my types. Just be my best me. Unfortunately, typology could offer advice in that regard if I could only figure out my types. lol
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top