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It seems I am stuck questioning my existence right now. I tried my whole life to follow a strict moral code in order to be a good person. Objectively by any standard I would die a good person. Subjectivity I think I'm a horrible person. I am the type who can see the black, the white and the grey. Humanity says seeing the black makes you a monster but I'm someone who can stop monsters. I know what they look like. Now subjectively good people do good because they want to. I auctually do it because it is morally required in every instance. As a child I was the sacrificial lamb to accept my family's dysfunction and had no right to succeed. This has made adult life difficult. However I been successful because I literally never changed in my life. Now I am questioning was it okay? I can't ask for rights as a human being because I have 0. I am a tool and My attachment to others is not something that exist. My attachment to others is just passing amusement. I know I mean nothing to them and vice versa. If I would have asked for happiness would it have been a sin? We murder animals for food and torture them in labs and don't question it. Is that really okay? Under my moral code I can not harm animals or children as they are pure. Pure creatures are untouchable and we require no mercy for poeple who commit willful crimes against humanity. Despite people thinking animals are beneath us I find them very enduring and I can't relate to people. Animals react because they need something. People do things a lot of times just because they are awful. I can not understand why psychopaths can have the ability to do anything and choose to abuse others. There is literally no profit and that makes the action irrational. Now since I clearly don't qualify as a human being I can not bond with these people. I have to wonder if the burden to suffer is just something we pass to some. Abuse is something I feel is a thing that needs to happen even if we don't want it to but that would make entire belief system wrong. Is there any piont in trying to stay good if I am wrong?
 

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MisterDexter said:
As a child I was the sacrificial lamb to accept my family's dysfunction and had no right to succeed. This has made adult life difficult. However I been successful because I literally never changed in my life. Now I am questioning was it okay?
Were you assigned the 'scapegoat' role in your family?
 

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You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain


The world has its way of making everh good thing you've ever done as... Not worth.
 

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<<<<<<<<-----------------take it frum a koon!

Human Morality is a task that attempts to raise Humanity "higher". Like the weather it often changes daily and is easily noticed but thereto are movements of moral truths and behavior that move only like that of a geologic shift like plate tectonics - ohhh so slowly and yet creates mountains over eons as well as grinding continents into sea silt.

Thus a relentless destruction & creativity of everything that is seemingly degenerating according to some theory of entropy that makes possible a new excess of life on earth; a life different yet awakened once again. All Morality, like all of Life on earth arises from the excrements of what precedes and from this the highest thing a person can ascribe to is the positive affirmation of saying Yes to both the life of past and the life of the present.

Humanity, individually & collectively will always experience tragedy but its the Highest Moral action to embrace it positively with a consciousness able to weather such conflict & competition, be it external or internal by reaching the state where one no longer suffers from any of it.........
Nuff for now..............Jonny Koon Luzsha
 

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<<<<<<<<<<--------------------take it frum a koon!

Morality, in general, has long been held to be an absolute ideal that has been/is something given to Humanity from a trancendental world/being that exists independent of human thought & existence. Many ancient cultures and societies enacted moral codes that would evolve into legal definitions that are based upon these trancendental definitions - a mandate from heaven.

As a deviation from "the behavior of Nature", Morality , being given as a code from "God" is something that supposedly makes Humanity different from other species. It is today even the fundamental basis on which humanity's entire political & social system is founded. Even here in the USA one cannot deviate from "One Nation under God" or USA Human rights doctrines that define them as Inalianable , endowed by Creator - inferring some transcendental Being. When a culture/Society no longer practices this "given" code of Moral Conduct; then the conclusion is that it loses both its Integrety and order. This decay within society/culture becomes its disorder & decadence - caused by the degeneration of its moral conscience and activity. This straying from the "god given" moral code/law is what trancendental belief refers to as "Sin" causing the guilt one experiences be it from a divine code or perhaps even of ones own invention.

However, it is my opinion that all such virtues of moral conduct that one feels/thinks they are obliged to follow are human inventions and since the forces of Nature care little about Moral codes nor does it need any permission to be what it is neither, then, one could conclude neither do human beings.........

More to come. Jonny Koon Luzsha
 

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Hi Mr. Dexter,

I deem morality subjective. If it is subjective it is relative, if it is relative it has multiple meanings, if it has multiple meanings it is a waste of time and energy. You may consider it frivolous of me, and you may continue down a path of isolation, withering as you ponder what's fruitless. It is up to you, and I will not judge your choice. My suggestion, however, is that you instead make a genuine attempt to improve your status quo so that you may feel something other than remorse. Perhaps discover your independence and your talents from which you can launch your business or career, and envision your property and impact upon the world. These are the things that fill me with a sense of meaning, and perhaps even a sense of morality.

I wish you well,

Skimt
 

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<<<<<<<-------------------take it frum a koon!

. .....my opinion that all such virtues of moral conduct that one feels/thinks they are obliged to follow are human inventions and since the forces of Nature care little about Moral codes nor does it need any permission to be what it is neither, then, one could conclude neither do human beings.......
To conclude this, however, is leading one down the path of The Natural Fallacy which basically says that simply because something does or does not occur in "Nature", then that does or does not make such, Morally speaking, behavior acceptable. My perspective is such , tho, that because all that exists is 'natural', of our physical reality - including humanity- then all Moral inventions by humanity are also "Natural", part of that same physical reality whether one wants to claim them as either "A priori" Universals or a matter of Empiricistic Subjectivity. This becomes simply a matter, then of origin and not whether the Moral reality in terms of Life's choices and practice is not necessary. I.e. A rose is still a rose whether or not I attribute its Reality to "God" even tho I've planted the thing myself in my own garden.

Therefore, since Morality itself , moral imperatives, are of Human invention, it becomes impossible to legitimize any of them to be an absolute measure of all values - even ones own moral codes & law & discovery. Such truths become only "my truths" and there is , like the weather always going to be change. These values will always be relative because they completely depend on human intention & volition...........

More to come, (yes I've spent to much time in my life on "Morality")
Jonny Koon Luzsha
 

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<<<<<<<<<<<---------------------------take it frum a koon!

These values will always be relative because they completely depend on human intention & volition..........
Hence there is no fixed truth regarding knowing what is right or wrong, good or evil, etc. - any moral norm that can be applied universally to differing times, differing persons, differing cultures, political structures or for that matter even to different species...............

People or even other animals with different intentions and being of different genetic definition will create , alter, and or choose amongst a varied & diverse sense of diverse values. Frankly , I have no objection to any of them. The problem is that most persons want to universalize these diverse values - even those that are completely their own and thus people box themselves, enslave themselves not simply to a moral belief in, say Christianity or Buddhism but also to their own moral beliefs that they might discover on some particular day and mistake for a Universsal truth that applies to them for the rest of their lives and they try to apply it to themselves for the rest of their lives. Many people also try to take this individual momentary moral reality and enforce it upon others without taking into consideration that those others are also desperately trying to live & make sense of their lives.

This creation of Moral Principals as applied individually or in a collective sense has flat out ruined the harmony and naturalness of not only the lives of individuals but also that of Societies & Cultures who try to apply them as a ceaseless agenda and campaign for a dominant competition of these Moral structures often applied in a Legal sense to be a standard of Lawful obedience, generally defining them as "Rights"............

Far frum over; Jonny Koon Luzsha
 

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<<<<<<<<-------------take it frum a koon!

No I'm not going to go off on Human Rights as that is not the topic put forth in OP, maybe I will someday, but not today as I'm just not thru with What Is Morality?

The meaning of Life then became to acquire these moral truths and try to apply them to oneself; sacrificing ones own life; to live according to "The Code" and they have been believed to be the very essence or pure spirit of human beings and one is to sacrifice, put aside, abandon ones natural existence for the sake of these moral ideals.

However, The purpose of Morality was to be for the preservation & enhancement of human life according to a Value of its Natural Existence as a tool for a means of enhancing life. But rather it has become over the eons, turned into the universal ultimate goal of Life.

Thus you have an entire species - humanity - striving, driven for moral success & knowledge and in the process disregarding; again I use the word "abandoning" their inherent nature regarding their own life and what that life is and can be.

What then is Morality? Or rather what has it become?
Morality is the cause of Human degeneration & alienation from a Value of its Natural Existence to one of striving, work, guilt & punishment, 'sin'. Pursuing of these Moral Universals has destroyed Life's essence of individuation, has clouded our minds, destroyed our energy & vitality, exhausted ones joy in Life's experience. Is this the way a person is born to live?
Its not the way I was born to live. No! And its a hard process to deconstruct all of the Moral Bullshit one allows to enslave them with & being sentenced to a Life of Imprisonment simply for being born.

When one lives their own life and remains faithful to the Earth, living without "Rights & wrongs" , moral & immoral then not only will you discover who & what you really are but you will have the freedom & confidence to BE who & what you are.

I'll end this now tho I could continue, its prolly enuff and one day maybe I'll returnto that topic of "Rights". Another of the many Ideals of Chains I had to deconstruct and free myself of................
Jonny Koon Luzsha baybee, alway hav, alway wil
 

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It seems I am stuck questioning my existence right now. I tried my whole life to follow a strict moral code in order to be a good person. Objectively by any standard I would die a good person. Subjectivity I think I'm a horrible person. I am the type who can see the black, the white and the grey. Humanity says seeing the black makes you a monster but I'm someone who can stop monsters. I know what they look like. Now subjectively good people do good because they want to. I auctually do it because it is morally required in every instance. As a child I was the sacrificial lamb to accept my family's dysfunction and had no right to succeed. This has made adult life difficult. However I been successful because I literally never changed in my life. Now I am questioning was it okay? I can't ask for rights as a human being because I have 0. I am a tool and My attachment to others is not something that exist. My attachment to others is just passing amusement. I know I mean nothing to them and vice versa. If I would have asked for happiness would it have been a sin? We murder animals for food and torture them in labs and don't question it. Is that really okay? Under my moral code I can not harm animals or children as they are pure. Pure creatures are untouchable and we require no mercy for poeple who commit willful crimes against humanity. Despite people thinking animals are beneath us I find them very enduring and I can't relate to people. Animals react because they need something. People do things a lot of times just because they are awful. I can not understand why psychopaths can have the ability to do anything and choose to abuse others. There is literally no profit and that makes the action irrational. Now since I clearly don't qualify as a human being I can not bond with these people. I have to wonder if the burden to suffer is just something we pass to some. Abuse is something I feel is a thing that needs to happen even if we don't want it to but that would make entire belief system wrong. Is there any piont in trying to stay good if I am wrong?

I’ve argued morality and for it for as long as I can remember

I’ve always found loopholes in every moral standard which made them all seem illegitimate to me, they were either a sense of purpose for weak people to follow or a political for those smart to use the weak people

As for my self, while I pretend to follow my environment’s moral standard, I am bent on enforcing my own which resembles creating a country inside a country, where a select few people who share my mentality get to do whatever they want whenever, and that includes anything, I reckon I am a villain in many people’s stories and what’s worse about it is, I can’t explain it to them why I act the way I do. The idea although practiced by me is also frightening in an existential sense. I’m sure if there’s a valid moral code out there it will strike me to the core, not some social contract enforced by civilization to make ends meet and get discarded whenever it suits civilization
 

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<<<<<<<<<<-------------------take it frum a koon!

When one lives their own life and remains faithful to the Earth, living without "Rights & wrongs" , moral & immoral then not only will you discover who & what you really are but you will have the freedom & confidence to BE who & what you are.
Ok, one more thing on Morality:
If you've followed along on my lil treatise here, you've prolly realised I'm best described as a Natural Pantheistic Daoist: A daoist, but without the idealistic mysticism of Lao-Tzu & more akin to the Natural Religiosity of Zhuang-Zi.

Jonny Koon Luzsha, baybee, alway hav, alway will
 

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It seems I am stuck questioning my existence right now. I tried my whole life to follow a strict moral code in order to be a good person. Objectively by any standard I would die a good person.
how can you be objectively good?

what is your code?


We murder animals for food and torture them in labs and don't question it. Is that really okay? Under my moral code I can not harm animals or children as they are pure. Pure creatures are untouchable and we require no mercy for poeple who commit willful crimes against humanity. Despite people thinking animals are beneath us I find them very enduring and I can't relate to people. Animals react because they need something. People do things a lot of times just because they are awful. I can not understand why psychopaths can have the ability to do anything and choose to abuse others. There is literally no profit and that makes the action irrational.
if you feel compelled to hurt others for sexual pleasure or some lesser impulse then it is not irrational? maybe dysfunctional

Now since I clearly don't qualify as a human being I can not bond with these people. I have to wonder if the burden to suffer is just something we pass to some. Abuse is something I feel is a thing that needs to happen even if we don't want it to but that would make entire belief system wrong. Is there any piont in trying to stay good if I am wrong?
do you think abuse makes people better, or worse?
 

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Mister Dexler: There is much about this existence that is disturbing. Many situations were worsened by humans. Many situations can be improved by humans. The point is, do you have the ways and means to do so? If so, then go for it. Improve things. If not, then there's no use for your angst.

intjon: Nature might not label things "right" or "wrong," but properly functioning living things do have a sense of "good" or "bad" that is universal. We all know. If that equilibrium is disturbed, then fight or flight.

So, then, if you encounter evil, fight it or take flight.
 

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<<<<<<<----------------take it frum a koon!

Intjon: Nature might not label things "right" or "wrong," but properly functioning living things do have a sense of "good" or "bad" that is universal. We all know. If that equilibrium is disturbed, then fight or flight.
Well now, you have stepped into what is known as The Naturalistic Fallacy amongst a bunch of other things; and I've tried to address this in one of my posts here in this thread so I'll let you back up and re-read. Also on "properly functioning living things" I would be interested in reading of your definition on what this is and how you've derived it.........
Also how you've arrived at the conclusion of "their sense of "good" or "bad" ........"
And also how you've arrived at this as "universal" & your definition of "Universal"
And NO - "we don't all know". I'm like Socrates, the only thing I know is Nothing.

I'm not a Universalist at all by any means & thought I've made that rather clear but if you are its your world not mine. Also, Nature does label things as "right" or "wrong" and I thought I made that rather clear as well in my lil treatise so again I'll let you go back & re-read; try to challenge ones reading comprehension:
But to summarise - IF one believes that all there is, is of Nature then that includes Humanity & all that it thinks, feels & does ands since Humanity labels things as right & wrong, good & evil, either/or , etc then such things are a part & product of Nature.

If one thinks humanity is not a part of Nature then..... well; If you want to believe in Universals knock yourself out but please don't include me.
Thanx.
 

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Okay. This discussion has boiled down to semantics.

If man is part of nature, then, yes, you could argue that it's "natural" to label things right and wrong. However, man is the only animal that suffers from angst from value judgments. This is why I re-word "right/wrong" as "good/bad," which is something everyone (man or animal or plant) "knows." When I called it "universal" I overreached.

Now I have to back up and re-define "knows" as "being aware of" or "having a sense of" something. The organism reacts to a threat to it's survival by fighting or escaping. To the fullest extent of its abilities, it takes action. (Even a plant will slowly grow in a different direction, and that's a form of "knowing.")

As for the human form of "to know," if you equate that with "to be certain of," then I agree with you and Socrates. The more I live, the less I know.

Lastly, what do I consider a "properly functioning" organism? One that does not encourage it's own destruction. If it has some trait (physical or psychological) that causes itself harm, it won't fare well during evolution. Those dysfunctional beings exist, and they don't "know" what is "good" or "bad" in terms of their survival.
 

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Mister Dexter: What I'm saying to you is that the INTJ solution is to take action. Even if all you do is decide you can't do anything, at least you have resolved. What I see, though, is lots of opportunities for you to address your issues creatively and constructively. You allude to family abuse and animals rights. See? You have options.
 

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Okay. This discussion has boiled down to semantics.

If man is part of nature, then, yes, you could argue that it's "natural" to label things right and wrong. However, man is the only animal that suffers from angst from value judgments. This is why I re-word "right/wrong" as "good/bad," which is something everyone (man or animal or plant) "knows." When I called it "universal" I overreached.

Now I have to back up and re-define "knows" as "being aware of" or "having a sense of" something. The organism reacts to a threat to it's survival by fighting or escaping. To the fullest extent of its abilities, it takes action. (Even a plant will slowly grow in a different direction, and that's a form of "knowing.")

As for the human form of "to know," if you equate that with "to be certain of," then I agree with you and Socrates. The more I live, the less I know.

Lastly, what do I consider a "properly functioning" organism? One that does not encourage it's own destruction. If it has some trait (physical or psychological) that causes itself harm, it won't fare well during evolution. Those dysfunctional beings exist, and they don't "know" what is "good" or "bad" in terms of their survival.
Thers nothing to argue. You believe what ever you want. I did not direct my responses to anyone in particular but simply voiced my ideas in response to the Q in OP. It basically was me talking to me in a written format and I could've written more - much more.
You chose to direct your response to me and I return the favor. Theres nothing to argue unless you care to argue with yourself like I often do with myself in which case don't drag me into your arguement with you by addressing your response to me.

My ideas on morality are my own and they have nothing to do with you & yours are yours. Enjoy them! And I hope your moral life works for you as great as what mine does for me but again, please don't include me in your world cause I like mine.
 

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Your previous response was directed at me. It referred to me as "you." So, I answered. So, what? I'm here to talk to people, not myself. I didn't expect that reaction from you intjohn.

Anyway, PM me Mister Dexter if you want to discuss anything more specific on what you can do about your situation.
 

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Morality has an offical definition. You don't have to think about what is it, because others, probably smarter than you, did it in the past.

Aside from this, it is quite unneccesary to make a big fuss over this question, because no matter how moral are you, no matter how you live your life, it is irrelevant to bigger things. You are not a leader of a country, you are not some military admiral, or scientist. You are a statist, on which the mentioned people build procedures. Most people on the earth does not even know about you. So to put it simply: You try to live by a strict moral code,and revolve your life about morality but for what? Nobody gives a fuck. Now, don't get me wrong, think about these useless shits as much as you like, but don't believe that these questions are relevant. You fighting a strawman you made it yourself.
 
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