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I decided to make this thread after seeing this in the INTP forum:

What I find funny about INTPs in debate is that, due to Fe, they tend to think that the most logical argument is the one that fits in best with whatever the prevailing norm is. Dat extroverted feeling.
I see a lot of Fi-strong users and some Ts bagging Fe, portraying it as sell-out and that Fe-strong people are shifty or manipulative, or simply at the mercy of their feelings in a meaningless, crowd-driven way. There seems to be this sense that Fi is somehow more honest, genuine and has integrity, whereas Fe is an outpouring of emotion that isn't tied to any solid, independent values and is simply there to support the norm and promote harmony.

I have a number of values and views that clash hard with wider societal norms and commonly accepted behaviour. I have been this way since I was a kid too. While I care a lot about harmony and people taking care of each other, that doesn't mean that my values and priorities simply line up with whatever the dominant group sanctions, nor that I will back down to maintain the peace. And I see INFPs and ENFPs doing a lot for the sake of harmony as well - on the flipside of Fe being pandering I've seen Fe-users describe Fi as being selfish and uncompromising, but this doesn't make sense to me either.

This is also off the back of recently testing as being high in Fi and Fe, and seeing what some people on PerC say about how that's kind of impossible or else I must be practically schizophrenic. I don't know, I pretty much tested solidly as INFJ until the last two years when I've tested as INFP.

So maybe the reason why I don't relate is because I'm not the 'purest' example of an INFJ, or because of enneagram contribution (4w5), but I don't know if I think that's it. It's always felt off to me this idea of Fe not having any depth or grounding.
 

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The issue is this I believe.

Fi is all about personal values matching personal behaviors. Fi wants the outside to match the inside and is geared to notice discrepancies in these dynamics. This defines genuine behavior to them.

Ti is all about accuracy and underlying principles.. It believes in objective truth despite the subjective natures of Humans. Ti believes it can defy this and find "truth". It can't. But it can certainly spot a hypocrisy in principles.

Both are pretty good at spotting the dissonance between the Fe user's true feelings and values and the face they put on for the good of the group.

To Fi.. it's better to piss everyone else off rather than compromise. It cannot empathize with trying to make everyone feel heard and accommodated. Especially if everyone has to give up a little as well.
So Fe must be full of shit and manipulative is the rationalization.

Ti.. Hey it just knows something is not accurate. The funny thing being, at least in the case of IXTP is the inferior Fe influencing everything they do. So maybe they should turn that microscope on themselves once a in while??.. Fe doms, aux's and terts are not the ones regularily facing accusations of being social retards.

Do I really feel this way about Ti and Fi?.. Meh.. But it shows how easy it is to crap all over something you don't understand.
 

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ArcLight... good post.
The outside matching the inside doesn't bother me...
I view Fe more as a pragmatic way of coping with people. There is nothing violating about values by reaching a middle point. FiDom users usually disagree and are ADAMANT about their causes.
Fe is just how I deal with the world... INFJ is still an NiDom...
 

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And I say T's who say that sort of crap are completely out of touch with humanity and themselves (their own emotions). People like that are emotionally unintelligent. I bet some of the stuff they are writing off as "manipulative" actually makes more sense than they think. I mean, who is to say? Maybe the person was being manipulative but I wouldn't take their word for it. Are you human? Then you have been manipulative at least once in your life. People manipulate in different ways. People also have their own version of being an asshole. Maybe for some people it's being manipulative. For others it's pretending like other people's emotions don't matter. Being the victim of either sucks equally. And someone who is at the mercy of either JUST their thoughts or their feelings is just an unhealthy person period and that should not be attributed to any one personality type.
 

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I decided to make this thread after seeing this in the INTP forum:

I see a lot of Fi-strong users and some Ts bagging Fe, portraying it as sell-out and that Fe-strong people are shifty or manipulative, or simply at the mercy of their feelings in a meaningless, crowd-driven way.
Then they haven't met me, but that's beside the point.

Some INFJ's are just as you described. Though, INFJ's tend to want to lead crowds, rather than follow or fit-in. ENFJ's want to fit in, usually, with whatever group they like.

INFJ's tend to want to make others understand and accept their values as a method of creating harmony.

INFJ's may be seen as shifty or manipulative because some are. Others like me wont bother sharing their thoughts in most circumstances. When you have difficult to explain ideas in your head and beliefs that aren't spoken with verbal ease, you don't share your point of view because it's simply impractical to do so. Rather you put your beliefs into your actions.

Your actions might then seem unusual, or surprise people because they don't understand where it's coming from.

Also, a lot of INFJ's have totally botched worldviews. I've gone so far as to say we all do, until we begin developing Ti and Se. So if someone is arguing that the INFJ's they know in grade school are total morons; they probably are. The problem is when you're only using Ni + Fe, you're running on two-cylinders, and the results aren't always pretty, because they would be quite right to ask, "Where is the more solid input from the external environment?"

There seems to be this sense that Fi is somehow more honest, genuine and has integrity,
I think it is more genuine... honest? No, honesty and integrity have to do with what *you* believe and whether you hold yourself to it in outward action. Fe isn't exactly genuine because it's used to adapt to in the moment situations. It interacts in the external world, rather than the internal. Elements of the external are beyond the person's control, still their function must cope and adapt to the situation. This makes all introverted functions "genuine" and extroverted functions less "genuine".

whereas Fe is an outpouring of emotion that isn't tied to any solid, independent values and is simply there to support the norm and promote harmony.
Fe is a tool. It's not the center of an INFJ's values, it can only express and influence them. For an INFJ, values relate more to Ni and Ti. Fe influences can reverberate back into Ni and Ti, to make us rethink our values. Yet whenever we reflect upon something in our head, deciding if it aligns with our values, we're not using Fe. It's extroverted for a reason.

Likewise, when someone is using Se, it's not the center of their values.


This is also off the back of recently testing as being high in Fi and Fe, and seeing what some people on PerC say about how that's kind of impossible or else I must be practically schizophrenic. I don't know, I pretty much tested solidly as INFJ until the last two years when I've tested as INFP.
The problem is when you combine all four cognitive functions from any type, they can essentially simulate functions you don't have.

I am exceptional at using Ti + Se. It can seem very much like I am using Te. If I take one of those useless tests, it will tell me I am using Te. The tests are wrong. Any personality can express any trait if that person has worked at developing that trait in themselves. There are subtle differences in someone simulating Te and someone actually using it, which can readily be observed by another person, but it is incredibly difficult to make the distinction in yourself. I thought I had those extra functions for years, until I took a hard look at how it all flowed in my mind and listened to some people more knowledgeable than me.

So maybe the reason why I don't relate is because I'm not the 'purest' example of an INFJ, or because of enneagram contribution (4w5), but I don't know if I think that's it. It's always felt off to me this idea of Fe not having any depth or grounding.
INFJ's are markedly different... even when disregarding enneagram, but enneagram points out one such difference.

The thing with an INFJ is that pesky Ni. It can be built infinite ways, and since that absolutely defines who the INFJ is, you have a hard time finding two INFJ's alike. There are actually a lot more INFJ's in the world than people think there is. We might be the rarest still, but there are easily double the amount that testing shows.

The problem is that if our Ni relates to and adopts the qualities possessed by another MBTI, we will almost certainly score as that type. We're not using the same cognitive functions as that type. Testing fails to properly identify the difference between someone using a cognitive function and someone using other cognitive functions to act like a certain function.

I could bash on Fi-users, but I've already done that plenty on this forum. Fi is okay, I guess... but I don't care much for Fe either. I'm an Ni/Ti/Se guy.

And honestly, a lot of INFJ's that I see on youtube videos rub me the wrong way.
 

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As for INTP's... I'm not sure that original statement stands that you quoted. I used to think I was an INTP, and would hang on their forums. They do very much stick to the facts. Largely the facts are in the mainstream of scientific knowledge.

They generally go where their reasoning dictates, and unlike an INFJ, they are unwilling to fudge-in the gaps. They'd rather toss their hands up and say this is unknown, but here are the possibilities.

An INFJ would rather decide upon one possibility being true and believe it, and then proceed even further into understanding once they've settled that matter in their mind.

If an INFJ and INTP were both building a tower. An INFJ would be willing to have invisible bricks, that they believe are there. INTP's will only build their towers with real bricks, but they will build many towers. An INFJ's tower rises higher in the sky, but it may crumble if one of their invisible bricks proves not to be there. INTP's towers don't crumble unless the facts change (pretty rare).

INTJ's are somewhat similar to INFJ's in this regard, I think. Just the types of towers we build are different... and an INTJ would probably plaster-in the spots where there are missing bricks, to get the job done.

So I could see Te and Fi users criticizing INTP's for sticking to the mainstream, but it's not Fe that does it. It's their utter reluctance to fudge-in anything in their logical constructs. They only fudge-in temporarily, as a method to enumerate possibilities. Sometimes if you think several options out, a solution presents itself.

Occasionally INTP's believe in something not provable. Which is great, but they'll tend to separate that from the realm of facts in their mind. INFJ's love to mix the two.
 

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Where do you all typically go to study on all this Ti/Te/Fi/Fe material? I've not looked at anything detailing it yet, but it's popping up with enough frequency in all these forums that I'm inclined to analyze it.
 

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I'm also an INFJ with strong Fe that has a strong moral code all my own (though a lot of it relates to other people, how to treat other people, and how to get along). However, when something comes up completely against my values and is actively hurting someone, I will speak up. I won't follow the crowd if I truly disbelieve in what the crowd is saying. I just don't like arguing for the sake of arguing and prefer to let everyone have their own beliefs.
 

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Others like me wont bother sharing their thoughts in most circumstances.

Your actions might then seem unusual, or surprise people because they don't understand where it's coming from.



Fe is a tool. It's not the center of an INFJ's values, it can only express and influence them. For an INFJ, values relate more to Ni and Ti. Fe influences can reverberate back into Ni and Ti, to make us rethink our values. Yet whenever we reflect upon something in our head, deciding if it aligns with our values, we're not using Fe. It's extroverted for a reason.


Any personality can express any trait if that person has worked at developing that trait in themselves.



The thing with an INFJ is that pesky Ni. It can be built infinite ways, and since that absolutely defines who the INFJ is, you have a hard time finding two INFJ's alike. There are actually a lot more INFJ's in the world than people think there is. We might be the rarest still, but there are easily double the amount that testing shows.

The problem is that if our Ni relates to and adopts the qualities possessed by another MBTI, we will almost certainly score as that type. We're not using the same cognitive functions as that type. Testing fails to properly identify the difference between someone using a cognitive function and someone using other cognitive functions to act like a certain function.

I could bash on Fi-users, but I've already done that plenty on this forum. Fi is okay, I guess... but I don't care much for Fe either. I'm an Ni/Ti/Se guy.

And honestly, a lot of INFJ's that I see on youtube videos rub me the wrong way.
I agree with all your points in bold...very much so, you aren't alone.

Fe is just how I orient myself in the external world, where as an INTJ might step on a lot of peoples toes, I am good at maneuvering in and out of things, making people feel good, and have a super wide variety (cliche) but truly so many mixed type of friends. What is actually going on inside is Ni/Ti. The Fe makes me want to use it in a way that will help the world usually though, that is why I can talk to an Fi user and make them feel better, but I am not really like them at all and don't have the same feelings.

I'm mostly Ni/Ti user and get along good with people as far as Fe goes, I rarely ever use Se though, definitely super inferior.
 

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People are just more comfortable using the functions they prefer rather than the opposite, because the opposite function whenever they arise in their minds usually manifest themselves in irritating and negative ways, so it's easy to extend that negativity toward people who prefer that function. To a Fi user, Fe may easily manifest itself in such a way that's mentioned in that quote from the INTP forum, because that person never really got the hang of Fe. I find to a lot of Fi-doms, Fi-users, Fe can easily come across as being overbearing or insincere because that might be how Fe manifests itself when it appears within them, so they can easily assume when they recognize Fe in others, "That person's just trying to control my life," or "He's such a big phony!" without really having a good understanding of how Fe works in people who do prefer Fe to Fi.
 

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Where do you all typically go to study on all this Ti/Te/Fi/Fe material? I've not looked at anything detailing it yet, but it's popping up with enough frequency in all these forums that I'm inclined to analyze it.
Life tbh, but there are some sites that describe the basics: Introverted Sensing (Si)

If you read a good book on typeology, it should have the cognitive functions in it, since that's what MBTI is based upon. The 4 letter types are really just short-hand for the cog. functions.
 
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