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Grumpy old bastard
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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
i don't mind vulnerability at all because i can emotionally disconnect from what i am talking about
lol, some might argue this isn't really vulnerable.....
 
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To be honest, that's a really good question. It's this thing I'm supposedly antithetical to, and no one even bothers to define what it really means.

I guess in my case, there are different forms.

Most basic is like, physically be unable to function well enough to protect yourself or maintain some sort of control. And I say most basic, because as a kid I struggled with that. Like if I were hurt or sick I absolutely would not show it. I had a very real (but completely abstract) sense that it could result in my dismemberment if I cried or succumbed in any way. Like how wild animals won't show they're ill or injured until they're near the point of death. Don't make yourself vulnerable, and if you are, don't ever show it.

There's positional/strategic vulnerability, which is like putting yourself in a position to be exploited. For example, I'm currently fighting an international legal case under significant constraints of time and money; my opponent gets a No-Win, No-Fee lawyer. There's a DNA test I am pushing for, yet I also have visa restrictions and obligations in other countries to fulfill. I am extremely hesitant to reveal things like that, lest his team use that to frustrate me/incur greater expenses thus forcing me to capitulate. I'm extremely reluctant to reveal my limited finances lest that be used as a tactic as well; put up a strong front in areas where you're weak, right? That's what I'm talking about with this one, and I'm not finding good reasons to "be more vulnerable" here.

There's emotional vulnerability as well, which I think is genuinely feeling moved by situations. I've never been able to entirely shut this off as well as descriptions allege...but damned if I'll ever show it. Same as what I said physically, revealing these feelings gets you mocked, shamed, beaten, or worst of all, ignored because no one wants to hear about it. My mom used to tell me I needed to show this sort of vulnerability to other people besides her, and I'm just like, No I don't. Even after years of inner work, I still struggle to see the advantages in showing vulnerability--my worst fears have only ever been confirmed.

Also, I agree with @drmiller's response that emotionally detaching while expressing vulnerability isn't vulnerability. I used to think I showed too much vulnerability because of my capacity to do this--but if you're expressing something you're detached from, you're basically just play-acting and/or being hysterical, manipulative, or worse, false. Vulnerability has to be genuine, deeply felt, and in-the-moment. It's a matter of exposing yourself in ways that could hurt or destroy you, and being detached doesn't allow for that.
 

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@drmiller100 @Coburn

Type 8's with Fi... there is a hope thing there, at times. I think I'm having some kind of mid-life thing, heh...

Deep down, I consider the overwhelming majority of people to be selfish, self-interested, amoral... basically, a particularly dangerous sort of monkey, prone to hurling lead instead of poop, and full of endless bullshit rationalizations for why they behave in the stupid and disgusting ways they do. A bunch of jibbering primates who understand nothing but fear and force, and are good for absolutely nothing but turning food into fertilizer, oxygen into carbon dioxide, being harnessed as a cog in someone else's machine.... and ruled with a mailed fist, because a mailed fist is the only 'no', 'don't', 'stop', or 'that's wrong' that they are capable of understanding.

This is why vulnerability is so ill-advised, at base. Being vulnerable towards most people is as stupid as letting a four year-old play with loaded guns. But if or when that four year-old shoots someone, it will likely be by accident, or at least without a full understanding of the ramifications of the act. To be vulnerable with most people... no, they'll use it against you on purpose, in order to use you to their advantage and your detriment, and to hurt you, and they will do this with a full understanding of exactly what they're doing.

At base, I'm a human being who pretends to be a monster, in order to force the monsters around me to act like human beings. I don't understand why just doing the right thing is apparently so fucking hard for most people, and probably never will.

At work, why is it so hard for so many people to stay the fuck off Facebook and just do their jobs? It's not difficult at all, you just have to have more self-control than the average five year-old, coupled with a general distaste for shallow attention-whoring, a disinterest in stalking, and no desire to participate in content-free (OMG HER KITCHEN CURTAINS ARE SOOOO UUUUUGGGGGLLLYY, LOLZ!) so-called "conversation."

On the road, why is it so hard for people to not go vastly over the speed limit, or drive drunk, or otherwise act like retards? It's not difficult at all, you just have to be more responsible than the average five year-old, coupled with having both a general distaste for "the rules are for everyone but me!" special little snowflake bullshit, and the maturity to understand that THIS MEANS YOU, TOO.

In relationships, why is it so hard for people to give as much as they get? It's not difficult at all, you just have to have a more developed sense of morality than the average five year-old, including enough foresight to understand that a non-reciprocal system is not self-sustaining over the long term.

And yet...

There is an even deeper part of me which, yes, hopes that this state of affairs could change. Throughout my life, I've often found myself integrating towards two...

YAY, THIS PERSON IS AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING AND NOT A FUCKING WORTHLESS MONKEY! I WILL HELP AND PROTECT THEM!!!

or heading off towards five...

WHY IS THAT PERSON SUCH A FUCKING WORTHLESS MONKEY?! I WILL STUDY THEM, APPLY MY KNOWLEDGE OF PSYCHOLOGY, FIND OUT, AND USE THAT KNOWLEDGE TO BREAK/REBUILD THEM INTO SOMETHING WORTH THE BULLET IT WOULD TAKE TO PUT IT DOWN!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
some great posts here.

I have a huge dose of white knight - I do want to fix people, but it never works. I'm getting better about not trying. No really.

Yes, the vast majority of people are responsible for keeping large quantities of algae alive. They create co2 and crap. they think they are special snow flakes, but really I'm the ONLY special snow flake. (smiles).

at work, why not fuck around on facebook, or this site, or whatever? most jobs are makework, and a waste of time. people do them for the reasons tehy do, but no one cares. or at least no one who is important cares.

I have learned to just be fucking me. Fairly loudly. The vast majority of people wander away from in a hurry. a few stay. Some of those are just fucking oblivious.

A few look AT ME. those are the interesting ones.
 
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some great posts here.

I have a huge dose of white knight - I do want to fix people, but it never works. I'm getting better about not trying. No really.

Yes, the vast majority of people are responsible for keeping large quantities of algae alive. They create co2 and crap. they think they are special snow flakes, but really I'm the ONLY special snow flake. (smiles).
I do not consider myself as such, nor anyone else. I can get pretty militant about that too, which is a valuable trait in a government bureaucrat. Yes, there are people I like and people I don't, but in the end, regulation is regulation and statute is statute. Period.

at work, why not fuck around on facebook, or this site, or whatever? most jobs are makework, and a waste of time. people do them for the reasons tehy do, but no one cares.
If someone just doesn't care, then they need to GTFO and find another job, become an entrepreneur, or otherwise engage in some sort of (legal) self-supporting endeavor they CAN care about. Why spend your life just numbly going through the motions and waiting for the reaper to get around to it, when you could find something you can actually get ENGAGED on, fired up about, passionate about, and actually LIVE a life?

And when you have someone who is a fuckoff and is allowed to get away with it, it just makes things that much more difficult for everyone else. If someone is going to do their own job and half of someone else's too, then they ought to get paid their own salary, and half of the other person's, as well. :p

or at least no one who is important cares.
I would debate that. Generally, slackers who give no fucks don't become important people in any manner save cronyism or nepotism. And even that generally doesn't last long, because they are so incompetent and reflect so poorly on their important relative/friend that sooner or later, said relative or friend is forced to make a choice: sideline them/get rid of them to keep them from swamping the enterprise/destroying their own reputation, or watch the ship go down.

I have learned to just be fucking me. Fairly loudly. The vast majority of people wander away from in a hurry. a few stay. Some of those are just fucking oblivious.
In my 40 years on this planet, I've yet to acquire a "hater" who didn't turn out to be basically just pissed off that I'm brighter, more responsible, more knowledgeable, more honest, and just in general a better person than they are or likely ever will be. The second line of my sig applies in full, and fuck 'em.

A few look AT ME. those are the interesting ones.
To be honest, on a purely personal level, I find the majority of people to be boring. Every once in awhile, I find another person who is like me -- a Technicolor person in a pastel world. Some are quiet about it, some are loud about it, but it is THOSE people I gravitate to... well, minus the red-flag ones, at any rate.

Tepid is for baths, not for people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
in 100 years NO ONE will care that any of us ever lived. doing a great thing at a job has almost no interest for me.

rules are made by sheep to make the sheep feel important over other sheep. I'll follow them, or at least not get caught ignoring them.

rare is the technicolor person. How do I find them? By being me and washing the sheep away.

you are a youngster.

i no longer care why people don't like me. well, at least most people. Not my circus. not my monkeys.

I've found great undesrtanding in Ruiz, and the 4 agreements, and The Mastery of Love. It's not about me. If I'm authentic, life is simpler. Assumptions fuck up my world. I generally my best.
 
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Yeahhh, maybe it's the Te, but I can't roll with the snowflake party going on up here. Statistically, I'm an average person living an average life with an average amount of talent, intelligence, and self awareness. I don't see the point pretending I'm above others when all the facts point otherwise.

Live your Technicolor dreams. I'll just keep being me.
 

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in 100 years NO ONE will care that any of us ever lived. doing a great thing at a job has almost no interest for me.
Getting into the history books? Even that is not the point per se. Do YOU give a shit that you're living now? THAT is the point. :proud:

And FYI, you'd be astounded at what ends up being eagerly poured over by future generations, re: the activities of random people 100+ years ago. I worked in Archives for 8 years, trust me on this. The civil war era records were the worst, in my opinion. See, Kentucky was a border state between the North and the South, and in that conflict they had a particular fetish for burning courthouses.

Now, guess where a lot of these records were stored? ...yeah. :dry:

Much was lost, and even a fair amount of the things that were not have fire or smoke damage. So yes, some dickhead in a retreating army decides it would be hilarious to put a match to the building on their way out, and over a century and a half later, yes, it still matters.

rules are made by sheep to make the sheep feel important over other sheep. I'll follow them, or at least not get caught ignoring them.
In some rare cases, this is true. In the main, it is not. Without law, rules, order, the system degenerates into chaos and anarchy. Barring gathering data on social breakdown, mental pathology, and the darker side of human nature in general, nothing worthwhile is accomplished.

Well, not unless you consider exploitation, theft, murder, etc. to be worthwhile, and in the main, I do not.

rare is the technicolor person. How do I find them? By being me and washing the sheep away.
I find that sheep tend to react with avoidance when possible, towards anyone who cares about something other than mindless gossip, what the neighbors think, and the same base biological drives that might motivate a field mouse.

It is not a moral failing per se, to be a sheep. But on a purely personal level, I find them boring and unrelatable.

you are a youngster.
LOL, I'm 40 years old! :laughing:

Granted, given how long people in my family tend to live, that's comparatively young. Nevertheless, I'm still 40.

i no longer care why people don't like me. well, at least most people. Not my circus. not my monkeys.
I've found great undesrtanding in Ruiz, and the 4 agreements, and The Mastery of Love. It's not about me. If I'm authentic, life is simpler. Assumptions fuck up my world. I generally my best.
Knowing why and caring why someone doesn't like you are two fundamentally different things. Even when I have the former, I usually don't have the latter. If someone doesn't like how I am, the odds approach 100% that I can't stand how they are, either. I live my values, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can GTFO.
 

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Yeahhh, maybe it's the Te, but I can't roll with the snowflake party going on up here. Statistically, I'm an average person living an average life with an average amount of talent, intelligence, and self awareness. I don't see the point pretending I'm above others when all the facts point otherwise.

Live your Technicolor dreams. I'll just keep being me.
Morally speaking (and assuming the people I've known who had that trait are anything like a representative sampling) that innate intensity of personality I'm referring to when I say "Technicolor" doesn't seem to automatically predispose people to good or evil, to being "better" or "worse" compared to others.

Rather, it just magnifies whatever tendencies to goodness or to turpitude they otherwise have.

Or to summarize...

Sheep = majority are selfish assholes.
Technicolor people = majority are selfish assholes.
 

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Returning to the topic, I am capable of expressing some of that kind of vulnerable mushy stuff, although it is clumsy, and takes a lot of effort even in writing, let alone in person. It requires a great deal of focus, is incredibly energy-intensive, and is such a massive drain on my internal processor that it requires me to almost entirely shut down my awareness of the world around me in order to do so.

Basically, it requires me to temporarily unhook the Fi power plant...




From the Te industrial complex that it powers...




... and then I have to locate Fi, as it exists when not functioning as a power plant or a moral arbiter...



... and then I have to translate the series of soft/weak/vulnerable emotional surges and mental images into plain English.

And all of this is while struggling against a lifetime of, "WHAT THE FUCK, ARE YOU CRAZY?! TELL THEM NOTHING OF THIS!!!" psychological conditioning.

It is not easy.
 

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I understand vulnerability as the state of being defenceless. It means to not attempt to protect oneself from another. If you put yourself in a position where you are not trying to defend/protect/shield/control yourself, then you are being vulnerable.

I think being vulnerable is a risk. If you show someone your vulnerability, it would be their weakness to abuse it. Only a person weak in character would feel the need to abuse someone else's "nakedness". It often has to do with their own insecurities and, to be honest, the simple fact that most of the time most people are basically incapable of putting themselves in a really vulnerable position because they would have to look inside deep enough and face what their nakedness actually looks like, and since it is such a rare thing, it is difficult to recognise it.
Being vulnerable is being without any masks. It is not an easy task, to remove all the layers and layers of masks, truly see yourself for who you are, and even harder, find the people who will stay if you show it to them.
I honestly think that it is not so easy to find the match(es) who know(s) how to deal with those moments of nakedness in the right way.
Also, people's nakednesses can look completely different from one another.

Often I see people thinking that vulnerability has necessarily to correlate to "fragility". I disagree. My nakedness is not crying and looking sad. My sadness is a layer covering something else. My nakedness is my raw anger. When all my "control" is lost, when all my defences are gone, that is what is left. If you never saw me angry, then you never saw me vulnerable. For some people, the anger they show is a layer covering something else that is still deeper. So, as I see it, the concept is the same, but the display can vary a lot.

Since my naked vulnerability almost exclusively drives people away, (because in the moment that I start to show anger most people react very wrongly to it), it became my habit to put much effort in containing it. Only a person who would remain serene and calm in face of my anger, and would choose to stay with me, would be dealing with it the way I truly need it.
 

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I know that each number has different struggles, but isn't being vulnerable a sign of strength?
Like, you are confident enough in yourself to be raw and real with people - offering a tender part of yourself that is able to be hurt by another person if they don't honour what you've shared.. That to me takes courage. And for a number that really respects strength, I would think 8s would aspire to be the strongest :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I know that each number has different struggles, but isn't being vulnerable a sign of strength?
Like, you are confident enough in yourself to be raw and real with people - offering a tender part of yourself that is able to be hurt by another person if they don't honour what you've shared.. That to me takes courage. And for a number that really respects strength, I would think 8s would aspire to be the strongest :D
smiles. That certainly makes sense, but it is not how I saw it for many years. That is the blind spot for 8's, and at some level, some of us desire to learn to be vulnerable with the right person. And we make shells and walls and rage out to keep ourselves safe.

On a similar note, theory suggests 9's would find more peace if they could be more assertive in keeping others away, but it isn't easy for a 9 to create conflict.
 

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smiles. That certainly makes sense, but it is not how I saw it for many years. That is the blind spot for 8's, and at some level, some of us desire to learn to be vulnerable with the right person. And we make shells and walls and rage out to keep ourselves safe.

On a similar note, theory suggests 9's would find more peace if they could be more assertive in keeping others away, but it isn't easy for a 9 to create conflict.

Yeah a bit smug for me to say from my computer ;) I have enough 8 friends to know most 8s would just roll their eyes and think it would be stupid to unnecessarily expose themselves, but I guess the irony is outsiders often see through the bravado of 8s and see that as a weakness.

Of course! I think all numbers have their contradictions.. Each numbers motivation is the opposite of their fear, and I think pursuing a value looks very different to avoiding a point of stress, even though they are different sides of the same coin.
As a 9 I want harmony, but to actually pursue that means dealing with things actively. However my head game isn’t strong I fall into the trap of connecting peace to passivity – to which disaster ensues, accidentally infuriating people by dodging all their emotion, or procrastinating tasks and making them way more stressful than they need to be. At New Years I asked my 9 friend (who is 32) what wisdom he had gained from 2016 – he said “sometimes problems just solve themselves” essentially saying if you ignore a problem it will go away. BAD 9. NO.

And I guess in general all numbers struggle with vulnerability, they just deal with it in different ways. 8s project their energy outwards, like a gushing river that pushes people away from getting close, while 9s tend to deflect… Boxing vs Judo haha

 
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