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Do you ever get frustrated when people don't listen to reason?

Since ISFJs have great memories, we are often "right" in arguments. Personally I find that even when I deliver my side of the argument with logic and reason, people just don't seem to get it. I find a lot of the time people just close their minds and "don't want to hear it" when they realize that they are wrong.

I read somewhere on here that ISFJs value justice, which makes sense because I don't like starting fights. I usually only argue to have the "correct" side revealed. I also argue if someone is being extremely unpleasant; justice must be achieved because they are wreaking havoc with their bad attitudes.

Does this relate to any of you? I was thinking of this today and I was wondering if I was the only one who experienced this with arguments.

As a side question, what types do you find you argue with the most? Are there any personality types that naturally don't get along with us?
 

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I don't argue much. The only things that can get me to argue much is if a) someone says/does something that goes against a principle of mine, or b)if someone says something that is wrong and/or insulting about myself or another person that might cast me or the other person in a negative light. I don't argue much about intellectual issues (like politics, history, etc.) because it takes me an extremely long time to figure out the best way to express my view on something. I probably won't even have a view unless I have done research. Occasionally I might get in an argument if something practical is not done efficiently or effectively, but that's usually only if something is directly affecting me or someone I care about.

I have noticed I have gotten into some messy debates with T's that never turn out well, since a lot of them involve values judgments and judgments about their perceptions of myself or others. I guess I only care about right and wrong (or fairness/justice). Debates with XNTJs almost never turn out well, because we both don't value what the other person values.
 

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Do you ever get frustrated when people don't listen to reason?

Since ISFJs have great memories, we are often "right" in arguments. Personally I find that even when I deliver my side of the argument with logic and reason, people just don't seem to get it. I find a lot of the time people just close their minds and "don't want to hear it" when they realize that they are wrong.
Interestingly enough, most people I talk to on PerC, especially Ns and most particularly NTs, think that SJs are the ones that don't listen to reason and logic and will stubbornly hold on to what they believe, even if it's pointed out that it's wrong.

In many ways this makes sense. With dominant Si, ISFJs usually do tend to prefer to keep things the same and have a harder time accepting new ideas without personal evidence. In addition, Fe makes ISFJs tend to base a lot on their social experiences, and their Ti leads them to a more subjective view on logic.

And NTs are known for placing logic above everything else, even politeness and subjective morality.


So it all depends on what you're focusing on, and who you're talking about. There are irrational people of all types. Sometimes it's a matter of it being down to the individual, and sometimes neither side is being irrational but both sides view the other as irrational.


Zeg said:
I read somewhere on here that ISFJs value justice, which makes sense because I don't like starting fights. I usually only argue to have the "correct" side revealed.
I think most types are like this. But how they get their is different than how we get there. Many NTs also only argue to learn more and reach the correct conclusion, but they aren't as emotionally sensitive as we are, so they're sometimes more blunt and direct with what they say.

And I would say NFs value justice very highly as well. I think the difference is that an ISFJ would focus more on justice in individual situations, whereas an NF would be focusing more universally and globally.

Which is the next point...it depends on what you're arguing about. It's very different if you're arguing about a personal situation compared to a more theoretical, large scale one like religion or politics.



And this is all assuming there actually is a correct side. Oftentimes it's not as simple as that. What one person views as correct is not the same as another.


Zeg said:
I also argue if someone is being extremely unpleasant; justice must be achieved because they are wreaking havoc with their bad attitudes.
Well, again a lot of this is up to interpretation. What one person finds unpleasant or a bad attitude is completely reasonable to another person. I think ISFJs are one of the most sensitive types in this regard. We often interpret what someone else is saying in a way that is different than they actually mean.


Zeg said:
Does this relate to any of you? I was thinking of this today and I was wondering if I was the only one who experienced this with arguments.
I think what you're describing here generally doesn't have a whole lot to do with type exactly. I think I've heard people of a lot of different types say similar things to what you just posted. I think what it is is that each type has certain things unique to them...certain priorities and communication styles...and we all have to be around others how have different ones. So it leads us to thinking that the other person is being unreasonable, and when we find out about the MBTI, we may start thinking that this explains it.

But like I said, this is more dependent upon who the individual is. There are people who are unreasonable of all types, and there are reasonable, rational people of all types.


Zeg said:
As a side question, what types do you find you argue with the most? Are there any personality types that naturally don't get along with us?
As kittychris said, ISFJs and NTJs have very different priorities. ISFJs tend to place a lot of emphasis on social politeness and not hurting others' feelings. NTJs focus more on the facts and saying exactly what they think, no matter whose toes they step on.

In general I think ISFJs can have a tough time having these conversations with NTs, though INTPs gel a lot more with ISFJs, since we have similar cognitive functions.

Here's a thread I made about this a while back:

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-forum-nurturers/41880-debates-arguments-discussions-irl.html
 
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Do you ever get frustrated when people don't listen to reason?

Since ISFJs have great memories, we are often "right" in arguments. Personally I find that even when I deliver my side of the argument with logic and reason, people just don't seem to get it. I find a lot of the time people just close their minds and "don't want to hear it" when they realize that they are wrong.

I read somewhere on here that ISFJs value justice, which makes sense because I don't like starting fights. I usually only argue to have the "correct" side revealed. I also argue if someone is being extremely unpleasant; justice must be achieved because they are wreaking havoc with their bad attitudes.

Does this relate to any of you? I was thinking of this today and I was wondering if I was the only one who experienced this with arguments.

As a side question, what types do you find you argue with the most? Are there any personality types that naturally don't get along with us?
i agree, but its not always reason, but my logical conclusions based on my previous experience. There are times when i give advice to people i care about because i know what they are doing can have extreme consequences... the problem is that even if they dont listen to me they dont always have the worst happen. While this is good from one standpoint, it makes them listen even less to my logic. Robbing a store could (probably should) end up with you in prison/probation/fines or other negative things... yet there is always the off chance that you wont get caught. I argue with my brother alot, not sure of his type yet. The arguing with him is more intense than with others because i dont care as much about hurting his feelings and he cares none at all about hurting mine. He also doesnt stop talking... despite being wrong. I dont like arguing but he doesnt seem to mind it. So as far as type goes id say ISTJ INTP (not INTJ since we both tend to realize that its stupid to argue with a brick wall) and INFJ (mostly because one is my sister and one is my mom) but i dont argue with my mom as much as my sister. i have limited access to other types.
 
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I like debating about stuff, but it tends to happen with friends only. With other people, I keep my opinions to myself, because I'm too shy to say anything about them.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks everyone for taking the time to read and reply to my question.

I think that you guys are right when you say it isn't exactly a type thing; there are reasonable people and unreasonable people of all types.

And regarding the idea that SJ types are very close minded in arguments... I usually think I am right in an argument because I wouldn't argue otherwise. Often times I am right, but some times I am wrong as well (which I will not be too ashamed to admit). Now I'm worried; have I been being stubborn all this time without realizing it?
 

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Thanks everyone for taking the time to read and reply to my question.

I think that you guys are right when you say it isn't exactly a type thing; there are reasonable people and unreasonable people of all types.

And regarding the idea that SJ types are very close minded in arguments... I usually think I am right in an argument because I wouldn't argue otherwise. Often times I am right, but some times I am wrong as well (which I will not be too ashamed to admit). Now I'm worried; have I been being stubborn all this time without realizing it?
second guessing (third guessing?) seems to be a type trend... dont worry im sure you werent being stubborn
 

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Do you ever get frustrated when people don't listen to reason?

Since ISFJs have great memories, we are often "right" in arguments. Personally I find that even when I deliver my side of the argument with logic and reason, people just don't seem to get it. I find a lot of the time people just close their minds and "don't want to hear it" when they realize that they are wrong.

I read somewhere on here that ISFJs value justice, which makes sense because I don't like starting fights. I usually only argue to have the "correct" side revealed. I also argue if someone is being extremely unpleasant; justice must be achieved because they are wreaking havoc with their bad attitudes.

Does this relate to any of you? I was thinking of this today and I was wondering if I was the only one who experienced this with arguments.

As a side question, what types do you find you argue with the most? Are there any personality types that naturally don't get along with us?
I don't mean to be a troll but having "great memory" does not equate to being right. Memories both depend on highly subjective experiences and (when regarding concrete facts and figures) don't necessarily make you right -- it really depends on the argument.

If you're debating the existence of God or whether abortion should be legal or not -- having a strong memory will serve you little justice.

If you're debating what color socks Stephen King wore in 1978 on March 3rd, that's another thing. Although, you can still be wrong in these types of arguments as well. Si tends to remember concrete facts and details -- whereas an Ni may remember what happened through understanding a the general idea. So, if Ni knows that Stephen King's favorite color of socks is orange and Si is going by what they think they remember from several years ago it's difficult to ascertain who would be right and who wrong.

Also, "logic and reason" is also based on the way you perceive your arguments to be. Perhaps you may even be the one who "doesn't want to hear it" when you realize that you may be wrong.

Again, I hate to troll but I'd just like to offer a different perspective.
 

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I don't mean to be a troll but having "great memory" does not equate to being right. Memories both depend on highly subjective experiences and (when regarding concrete facts and figures) don't necessarily make you right -- it really depends on the argument.

If you're debating the existence of God or whether abortion should be legal or not -- having a strong memory will serve you little justice.

If you're debating what color socks Stephen King wore in 1978 on March 3rd, that's another thing.
Again, I hate to troll but I'd just like to offer a different perspective.
This was pretty witty and a clever way to make a good point. Embrace your inner troll.

Do you ever get frustrated when people don't listen to reason?

Since ISFJs have great memories, we are often "right" in arguments. Personally I find that even when I deliver my side of the argument with logic and reason, people just don't seem to get it. I find a lot of the time people just close their minds and "don't want to hear it" when they realize that they are wrong.
The question, sort of like what SerialHero brought up, is what are you "arguing." Are you arguing over whether a person should or should not do something (the correct course of action) or are you arguing a topic? Let me point out that if you have the will and inclination it is very easy to make a logical argument. Because of x and y then z. You could stick anything in there to try to make an argument. However, it takes particular skill to persuade, which requires personal experience, facts, and a certain amount of manipulation. But making a logical argument doesn't mean you're "right."

The other situation you brought up is when people "don't want to hear it." Perhaps they considered your basis for your argument and need time to take it into consideration. Or maybe they need to learn from experience. I will always base my personal decisions on my own reasons, and though quite stubborn, the opinion of other people on what I should or should not do with my life holds little value.

But again, I would probably need more information or a personal experience of the type of arguments and the context to give a better reply.
 

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I don't mean to be a troll but having "great memory" does not equate to being right. Memories both depend on highly subjective experiences and (when regarding concrete facts and figures) don't necessarily make you right -- it really depends on the argument.

If you're debating the existence of God or whether abortion should be legal or not -- having a strong memory will serve you little justice.

If you're debating what color socks Stephen King wore in 1978 on March 3rd, that's another thing. Although, you can still be wrong in these types of arguments as well. Si tends to remember concrete facts and details -- whereas an Ni may remember what happened through understanding a the general idea. So, if Ni knows that Stephen King's favorite color of socks is orange and Si is going by what they think they remember from several years ago it's difficult to ascertain who would be right and who wrong.

Also, "logic and reason" is also based on the way you perceive your arguments to be. Perhaps you may even be the one who "doesn't want to hear it" when you realize that you may be wrong.

Again, I hate to troll but I'd just like to offer a different perspective.
All experience and fact is pretty personal if you ask me - I agree that a good memory doesn't equate to being right - but I think someone's train of logic can be just as subjective as the things a person remembers. All facts are something remembered, and interpreted to an extent. I guess the NT user might remember the ideas more than simply the details, and after working through the idea at the time, they'll remember the correct idea - atleast by their logic, whereas the SJ will remember what coherently fit into their world view, or just particular nuggets of information, whether right or wrong. Something like that. I guess instead of memories and past focus, it's what's coherent for SJs - which looks like past focus and sticking to old traditions; it feels more like sticking to what feels most right in terms of what I already know; something that can fit best and most easily into my web; what is farmiliar we have more of a grip of. It takes a while to process something unfarmiliar.

I think this is all a bit theoretical though. I'm not sure that I remember details actively, I have a pretty rubbish everyday memory to be honest. Names and sense of direction forever eludes me, and god forbid I need to find my keys/debit card/glasses(while they're in my hand/staring me in the face, if it's not been stored/I have a preconceived idea in my mind of where they'll be).
 

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I have only really debated with one ISFJ in my life. I can tell you that it's not really that much of a debate. @Zeg mentioned having an incredible memory. So does my mom. However, she cannot explain to be why she votes straight ticket rather than weighing each candidate's pros and cons. She cannot explain any reasoning behind anything she believes other than personal experiences that, like @Serial Hero said, are extremely subjective and sometimes entirely mislead by perception, or saying, "I just do." Now I am not saying that one cannot use that as justification for ones own beliefs. Induction can and is a valid form of proof to ones own self. However, she also uses it to try and convince me of other things. I end up absolutely shredding her argument, and she gets frustrated.

All of that said, she also has very weak Ne. The reason why that is important is that Ne is the function that might change your preconceived notions. I have found that in SJs with poorly developed Ne, they tend to be closed-minded, and therefore bad at debating. Part of debate is the willingness to have your mind changed. I don't notice that very much in SFJs. There seems to be more of a need to defend ones point rather than to discuss the issue at hand in order to come to an optimal conclusion. Like Teddy said, this makes a lot of sense that an SJ would be the type that would hold onto what they believe rather than debate in order to find the best conclusion. As Ne is an SJ's tertiary/inferior function, and Ne is essentially the "most open-minded" function, it would stand to reason that undeveloped SJs would have a tendency no refuse to budge in their opinions. And when I say that Ne is the "most open-minded" function, I mean that Ne dominant users are known to change opinions constantly because they are always looking at different angles and weighing new data. Of course, ESxJs would have a lesser tendency to do this than ISxJs due to the difference in ordering.

As far as the OP's debate skills are concerned, I can't say anything about that. I can say that in my experience, debate from an ISFJ is not necessarily their strong suit.

Also, Zeg, if you indeed have been stubborn this whole time, I wouldn't worry too much about it. All types can be stubborn at times. Whether or not you are stubborn is irrelevant since you intention appears to be that of not wanting to be stubborn. Also the consideration of your potential stubbornness shows your willingness to change your mind.

One final disclaimer, the above detailing my personal experiences with SJs was meant to address the subject at hand rather than pass judgment on anyone here. I don't like to assume that that's how it will be taken, but I have gotten into some...trouble making generalizations about SJs based on personal experience.
 

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One final disclaimer, the above detailing my personal experiences with SJs was meant to address the subject at hand rather than pass judgment on anyone here. I don't like to assume that that's how it will be taken, but I have gotten into some...trouble making generalizations about SJs based on personal experience.
I don't know if you've read much here or seen around, but others - Teddy comes to mind - have mentioned we can take offence because we look at things as specifics often and are generally sensitive anyway, while NTs especially are more general so mean no offence generally. :) You seem to be adressing this whether knowingly of some thoughts in the same vein here or not./Awkward phrasing aka Yay forum progression/thoughfulness/it made me smile even if it made no one else smile >_> <_<.



I don't think I answered the original question...I tend to avoid arguments like the plague. I can sorta go for debates though, hehe. I tend to think I'm right otherwise why would I be debating - I could be trying to sound my ideas out against contrary responses though, if the subject is not too serious/delicate. I don't know about people refusing to see the correct side - I see everyone's side as resonable from their POV, or selse why would they argue for it, hence alot of my reluctance to argue with people, who am I to assume I'm right. But I kinda can't help myself from intervening if I see something I see as clearly incorrect and the person isn't too intimidating.

For example illogical statements/bad grammar/if a friend its getting emotional about someone they like, and subjectivity is taking over, and most importantly when I can see that giving them an alternative view will help them deal with the situation in the long run, I will try and help them see the other side. For example, 'You feel like he's not seeing you enough; you feel he doesn't like you as much as you like him, have you expressed this concern to him? No? Talk to him about it :). You know he's rather independant. You also know he's very honest, and everyone can see he cares about you. He can't do things to make you happy again if you don't let him know you're unhappy. It might not be so enjoyable to bring up an uncomfortable subject to begin with, but by bringing it up you can resolve it.'
 
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