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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's an analogy that you can skip, but I think it's a nice introduction to the topic.
 
Say you have a lepton that's the opposite of a hadron. You have a particle with a positive electric charge. You have another with a negative electric charge.

If something is not one thing, it must be the opposite, correct?

Of course, we could also say that there is a particle without a charge, or a particle with both charges simultaneously. And the absolutes end there, because if you add the positive charge with the charge that doesn't exist, it stays a positive charge. The absolutes have been laid out.

I was simply wondering what the base of the Enneagram is.

We have the three Triads: The Hornevian Triads; The Harmonic Triads; The Basic Triads.

I'd like to deconstruct these so I can determine what the base is for this system so I can understand why each Triad incorporates the most reasonable traits that would encompass all humans.

The Hornevian Triads are: Withdrawn; Assertive; Compliant.

So, what essential combination of traits create these three groups? I remember reading and talking to someone here* about the connections between neurotransmitters and the Triads, and, if my memory serves me correctly, it said that it's based on Drive.

Low Drive means Withdrawn, High Drive means Assertive, Medium Drive means Compliant.

So, I'm curious why Medium Drive would make one
always checked by their superego?
The Harmonic Triads are: Reactive; Competence; Positive Outlook.

This one probably makes the most sense out of all of them. The base just seems to be a scale between optimism and pessimism. However, I'm still a bit hazy on the definitions of these just as I am with all the rest.

Positive Outlook Types are optimistic under stress, so it would make sense if another set of Types was pessimistic under stress. The Reactive Types are simply
very volatile and reactive under stress
as the name would suggest. Is it implying that pessimism leads to volatility?

Finally, the Basic Triads are: Head; Heart; Gut.

I'm told that these are determined through a scale of Stress.

Why would mediocre stressful types be in the Heart Triad, which defines the Types in this Triad as
having a lot of struggle with self-image issues?
I just really wanna know how the Enneagram works. I've been driving myself insane, just deconstructing it with the help of Google and finding nothing in consistency with anything else. I'm inclined to just give up and build my own system on a similar premise and call that "Muffin's Enneagram" and just be done with it.

I'm actually doing that regardless, but I think my system would make more sense if I understood the Enneagram.

*The someone being @darude11 for anyone who's curious. I was hesitant in tagging you, darude, because of a lurking fear that I would be bringing up a topic that had a fairly satisfying death.
 

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The harmonic triad has nothing to do with optimism-pessimism. The way the positive outlook types operate is that they ignore/repress/avoid situations that they for various reasons find unpleasant. It has nothing to do with being an optimist. They can be very cynical people.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with how one deals with stress (disintegration point would explain that more), but how one deals with conflict. Reactive types deal with conflict by reacting against the situation for example.
 

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Triads are not scales. They are not composed of one positive, one negative, and one neutral member. I think of each triad as a miniature Enneagream with each type centered around a particular issue. Analogy-wise, I'd say triads are categories (like Quadrilaterals) and types belonging to one triad fit the triad's specifications (having four sides) but the types are not opposite to each other (Squares are not opposite of rectangles which are not opposite of rhombi).

The Hornevian Triads deal with one's social style. Imagine there are three children in the kitchen, and there is a cookie jar on the table. One child, the assertive child, is the one most likely to steal it. He wants what he wants and will assert his power over the environment (in this case, stealing it) to get it. The second one, the compliant child, feels he must earn the cookie. He has an internalized code of conduct that he is compliant to, and his actions are according to his principles (waiting for an adult, do a chore, etc). The third child, the withdrawn child, with withdraw into himself. He may distract himself from wanting the cookie, engage in a fantasy, pretend he never wanted the cookie in the first place, or otherwise remove himself from the environment. While the assertive child with change the outside world and the compliant child will engage and negotiate with it, the withdrawn child will remove himself from world entirely.

The Harmonic Triads is how one deals with conflict. Imagine that in some other part of the house, there is a big kid who has taken all the toys, and three kids who are watching him. The first child, the reactive child, is angry and wants the other kids angry too. She wants her emotions to be mirrored by those around her. The second child, the positive outlook child, will minimize her negative emotions and look on the bright side ("We can play with them when he's done. There are other toys.") The third child, the competency child, will push aside her emotions all together and look at it from a problem-solving perspective. While the first child wants a strong emotional reaction, the second child wants to settle down and focus on the positive, and the third won't bring emotions into it.

The basic triads deal with the core issues of each group, their primary fear. In other parts of the house, because this is a big house apparently, there are three more children. One child is dominating the basketball court. She won't let any of the other kids play, or if she does it will be on her terms. She, hailing from the gut triad, is fueled by a latent anger. Her fears are marked with an awareness of being in opposition to the outside environment, that there are things that are hers and things that are not hers, and she is preoccupied with maintaining this boundary, this sense of self. In another room, another child is laying on his bed with headphones on, squeezing a stress ball. This child is from the head triad and is motivated by anxiety and fear. In his eyes, the world is unsafe; there is no security, no consistency, no guidance, and he is struggling to find some strategy, some theory, that will help him cope. And in the adjacent room, there is a child checking herself in front of the mirror, switching outfits. The self-image child is not so worried about being fat or ugly as the name may suggests, but wants to project a certain image. She wants to be good, or kind, or smart, or competent, or unique, and wants others to validate this projection. The only way she can get her needs met is by becoming what she wants others to see. And when she doesn't live up to her own image she feels shame, which is the issue that the image type centers on.

It should be noted that for the basic triad there is at least one type that defies the stereotype. Nines for example, despite being in the gut triad, are out of touch with their own bodies, having suppressed their anger, and would probably be the last person acting like the gut triad child above. Similarly, even though a head type, the Seven might be hanging out with the gut triad kid, not because they are intune with their bodies but because they are fleeing from their overactive minds. Their way of coping with their fear is running from it. And the four child may balk at the idea that they need validation from others; they may very well be sitting quietly with the head type child, nursing their hurt feelings, and even this withdrawal is an attempt to bring others in, to garner attention.

Take everything I've said with a pound of salt. These are generalizations. I find it easier to examine each type and see how their behavior manifests in the triad rather than the other way around. Else, one might confuse Five as a gut type because they want independence and are afraid of being overwhelmed. Also, just because you are a head type doesn't mean you're introspective or know yourself well, and just because you're a gut type doesn't mean you are an athlete or magically in tune with your body.
 

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The way the positive outlook types operate is that they ignore/repress/avoid situations that they for various reasons find unpleasant. It has nothing to do with being an optimist. They can be very cynical people.
THANK YOU.

Positive Outlook isn't so much about optimism as it is denial and "Not being affected."
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Triads are not scales. They are not composed of one positive, one negative, and one neutral member.
I'm curious how the system works so that each Triad accounts for nearly every way things are dealt with, then. Does it just take the ways that have been observed the most?

Let me use this quote to further illustrate my question.


The Hornevian Triads deal with one's social style. Imagine there are three children in the kitchen, and there is a cookie jar on the table. One child, the assertive child, is the one most likely to steal it. He wants what he wants and will assert his power over the environment (in this case, stealing it) to get it. The second one, the compliant child, feels he must earn the cookie. He has an internalized code of conduct that he is compliant to, and his actions are according to his principles (waiting for an adult, do a chore, etc). The third child, the withdrawn child, with withdraw into himself. He may distract himself from wanting the cookie, engage in a fantasy, pretend he never wanted the cookie in the first place, or otherwise remove himself from the environment. While the assertive child with change the outside world and the compliant child will engage and negotiate with it, the withdrawn child will remove himself from world entirely.
The three ways that the analogical children deal with the situation relate to each other in what way? If they do not oppose each other, or anything akin, how do we know that these three methods of regarding one's environment encompass a sufficient spectrum? Perhaps you answered it in the analogy you created involving squares and rectangles. I must admit that I had trouble comprehending your message for that one.

If each Triad fails to encompass a sufficient spectrum, it leaves the majority of people unable to identify with any type at all, which, in my opinion, renders the system worthless.
 

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*The someone being @darude11 for anyone who's curious. I was hesitant in tagging you, darude, because of a lurking fear that I would be bringing up a topic that had a fairly satisfying death.
Sorry if I seemed aggresive, I'll try to say the least possible opinions of mine and try not to bring up neurotransmitters.

Harmonics are about individual outlook on situation - either optimistic or pessimistic.

Hornevians are about the self/consciousness of individual.

I despise the basic one, because I take tritypes as outcome of Enneagram, not single types.

I shouldn't mention motivational triad, it's not popular.
 

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You are viewing the Enneagram through absolutes, as if there is one Absolute positive, one Absolute negative, one Zero, with all possibilities lying in a linear spectrum. It would be better to view the Enneagram as a color wheel. Each triad is a primary color, each with its own flavor.

The basic triad is divided by head, heart, and gut. None of the three "oppose" each other. They are merely reflecting a central focus; in this case fear, shame, and anger. You may ask why they chose these three, and one theory posits that fear, shame and anger evolved from our freeze, flight and fight responses, and that our modern neuroses are maladaptions of these survival basics.

The Hornevian triad can be seen as ego, superego, and id.* The assertive types are motivated by the ego; they exert their force on the environment to satisfy their egoic desires. The compliant types get their name because they are compliant to their superego. They bargain using their code of conduct to get what they want. An assertive type will do what it wants, but a compliant type will think "if I do X, I will earn Y" or "If I want Y, I should do X." They aim to satisfy their conscience. The withdrawn types are sensitive to their id. They withdraw into the realm of their psyche. Their internal moods are more important to them than external people and events.

Now take the Harmonic Triads. They represent how one reacts, reduces, or removes their emotional conflict. Reactive types react directly to their emotions**. They want others to be incited by the same emotions they feel. Positive outlook reduce their emotions by minimizing the problem or avoiding it. Competency types remove emotions by taking an objective approach and analyzing the situation. One could look at it in terms of emotional distance: reactive types feel themselves fully, positive outlook types take a step back and only let themselves feel partially by denying their negative emotions, and competency types take even more steps back and don't let themselves feel at all. This is limited to only conflict though. A reactive type could be the most optimistic person in the world but when stressed feels the brunt of their anger (and wants you to feel anger too).

If each Triad fails to encompass a sufficient spectrum, it leaves the majority of people unable to identify with any type at all, which, in my opinion, renders the system worthless.
A few things to remember:

Triads divide the types into very broad, basic groupings. Unless one looks at the motivations behind the types, triads won't make much sense.
Triads overlap. Everyone belongs in several triads simultaneously.
The nine types are divided by three instincts and nine health levels.
Tritypes theory states that every person has one core type, and two types from the other two centers, and each type has wings. Someone with 6w7 4w3 9w8 is influenced by six types.

A person's type may be assertive, for example, but there are other influences (core, tritype, instincts, other triads. upbringing, etc). A Five is both in the withdrawn and power-seeking triad (2,5,8 in Enneagram directional theory). It means that Fives both withdraw from the world and seek power over it. How? If you've ever seen a Five in their element, maybe talking about his favorite interests, you will see their need for control. They can dominate a conversation. Knowledge is their domain; playing the expert is the niche. But if they feel their information is unwanted or they feel rejected, they will disappear.

The most important thing about the Enneagram is motivations. The triads are merely groupings of types with similar behaviors, but their reasons for the behavior can be drastically different. For instance both Fours and Fives are in the withdrawn triad, but Fours are also a heart type that withdraw to enhance their feelings, while Fives are a head type that withdraw to analyse the situation from a distance. Fours nurture their emotions, Fives detach from theirs, yet from an outside perspective their withdrawal can look the same.

The Enneagram does not account for everything. It categorizes basic drives of human psychology but it won't explain all behaviors, like why you like chocolate ice cream or why you tie your shoelaces wrong.

*Ruso and Hudson have also associated assertive types with id and withdrawn types with ego. This confusion is why I don't recommend using this analogy.
** I think reactive types are seen as pessimistic because they experience their negative emotions directly and are the most likely to voice it. Also the Harmonic triad deals only with conflict, which is almost always negative in some respect.
 

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@Bluity - excellent descriptions! Thank you.

Someone feel free to check me if I'm wrong, but I think the various triads beyond heart, head, and gut were all developed separately from the enneagram (I certainly know Freud's weren't), but various enneagram theorists have advocated that those separate triads can also be mapped into the enneagram. So those triads don't form any sort of basis for the enneagram. Rather, they are used by enneagram theorists to help bolster people's understanding of the enneagram through correlation.

As far as the head, heart, and gut triad, I think those are by far the most useful and most basic. Since I began to study the enneagram theory, I've come to see that these three "centers of intelligence" have been used to describe the three "motivators" human beings use to survive and thrive in the world throughout millenia. References can be seen as far back as the Bible and Plato (the power of "thoughts, feelings, and actions" - head, heart, gut), throughout eastern philosophy, and even today, where you hear the self-development crowd speak of power coming from the experience of being "touched, moved, and inspired" (heart, head, gut). As far as I know, none of these sources ever based their insights on the teachings of the enneagram.

While the enneagram theory may be based entirely in those three intelligences, it's hardly the only theory that uses that triad to explain where our power as human beings comes from.
 

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And to the OP, I would highly recommend going deeper than the internet if you truly want to get what the enneagram offers. While what I've found on the internet (including this site) has greatly expanded my understanding of the enneagram, nothing can compare to reading the source material from authors who have dedicated their careers to understanding and explaining it's function. As with everything else on the internet, I find that you have to dig through a lot of superficiality and misinformation to find the elements of truth.

(Though finding insightful posts like Bluity's is what keeps me returning to the internet over and over looking for greater understanding. Thanks for keeping the dream alive, @Bluity!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry if I seemed aggresive, I'll try to say the least possible opinions of mine and try not to bring up neurotransmitters.

Harmonics are about individual outlook on situation - either optimistic or pessimistic.

Hornevians are about the self/consciousness of individual.

I despise the basic one, because I take tritypes as outcome of Enneagram, not single types.

I shouldn't mention motivational triad, it's not popular.
Oh, no, I didn't disapprove of it. I thoroughly enjoyed the things that you asserted in that topic. I simply didn't want you to feel obligated to bring up things from that thread simply because I made a reference to it. Feel free to bring up your own opinions if you wish, I'd like as many views on this as I can to sort out which makes the most sense to me.

The basic triad is divided by head, heart, and gut. None of the three "oppose" each other. They are merely reflecting a central focus; in this case fear, shame, and anger. You may ask why they chose these three, and one theory posits that fear, shame and anger evolved from our freeze, flight and fight responses, and that our modern neuroses are maladaptions of these survival basics.

The Hornevian triad can be seen as ego, superego, and id.* The assertive types are motivated by the ego; they exert their force on the environment to satisfy their egoic desires. The compliant types get their name because they are compliant to their superego. They bargain using their code of conduct to get what they want. An assertive type will do what it wants, but a compliant type will think "if I do X, I will earn Y" or "If I want Y, I should do X." They aim to satisfy their conscience. The withdrawn types are sensitive to their id. They withdraw into the realm of their psyche. Their internal moods are more important to them than external people and events.

Now take the Harmonic Triads. They represent how one reacts, reduces, or removes their emotional conflict. Reactive types react directly to their emotions**. They want others to be incited by the same emotions they feel. Positive outlook reduce their emotions by minimizing the problem or avoiding it. Competency types remove emotions by taking an objective approach and analyzing the situation. One could look at it in terms of emotional distance: reactive types feel themselves fully, positive outlook types take a step back and only let themselves feel partially by denying their negative emotions, and competency types take even more steps back and don't let themselves feel at all. This is limited to only conflict though. A reactive type could be the most optimistic person in the world but when stressed feels the brunt of their anger (and wants you to feel anger too).
Those all sound like they oppose each other. Also, the color wheel consists of bases that are not involved in each other in any way. There is not blue in red, not red in green, not green in blue, which only supports what I said. Perhaps I'm taking your metaphor too literally, perhaps I'm taking an abstract system and merely looking at it for its face value, but while you are very insightful, a lot of what you say appears to contradict in my mind.

And to the OP, I would highly recommend going deeper than the internet if you truly want to get what the enneagram offers. While what I've found on the internet (including this site) has greatly expanded my understanding of the enneagram, nothing can compare to reading the source material from authors who have dedicated their careers to understanding and explaining it's function. As with everything else on the internet, I find that you have to dig through a lot of superficiality and misinformation to find the elements of truth.

(Though finding insightful posts like Bluity's is what keeps me returning to the internet over and over looking for greater understanding. Thanks for keeping the dream alive, @Bluity!)
Whether things are perceived by the authors as misinformation or not, it's all interpreted from the source material. More than likely, I'll find more from looking at non-source material than actual source material. Also, as looking at both the internet and the source material is a more specific circumstance, it is less likely to be sustainable by a significant margin. If I stumble upon it, that's okay. If I seek out source material, that's ill acted.
 

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Gurdjieff (the one who brought the Enneagram symbol to everyone) talked of Affirming, Denying, and Reconciling. The fourth way also came out of his teachings which goes beyond emphasis on any one of the traditional three spiritual pathways: the way of the fakir - struggle with the physical body, the way of the monk - struggle with the affective, and the way of the yogi - struggle with mental habits. The body-based, heart-based, and head-based triads may have come out of this or something similar.

The 9 pointed Enneagram symbol lends itself well to this triadic nature (3 groups of 3 types). This 3 x 3 nature of the symbol is irresistible for a lot of people (especially Riso & Hudson). People started applying existing psychological theories in terms of triads.

Karen Horney wrote about an Assertive type (moving against people), Compliant type (moving toward people), and Detached type (moving away from people). Although she died well before the Enneagram personality types developed, some people applied her work to them.

Freud's id, ego, and superego was another.

Sometimes authors simply discover their own patterns in the triads (e.g., Riso's Harmonics: positive outlook, competency, and intensity).

It all fits too neatly for me to be accurate. It can both offer insight into possible similarities but it can also create generalities that may not be accurate (at least without a little twisting of the terms). I used to make up triads of my own that work better for me than what I've found in the literature.

Bottom line I think is that, as Naranjo has written, the Enneagram symbol gives a way to organize your thinking. I think sometimes people get lost in what the symbol tells them because it makes things so much easier (though not necessarily more accurate).

Myers-Briggs is dyadic, Enneagram is triadic, maybe the next will be quadratic.
 

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Those all sound like they oppose each other.


Then you must have a different definition of opposition than I do. What opposes what, do you think?

Also, the color wheel consists of bases that are not involved in each other in any way. There is not blue in red, not red in green, not green in blue, which only supports what I said.
Actually it supports what I said. Just like blue does not oppose red, assertive types do not "oppose" compliant. In the OP you were trying to fit the triads in a negative/neutral/positive line. I'm saying don't do that. The triads represent three different attitudes that cannot be measured on a scale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Then you must have a different definition of opposition than I do. What opposes what, do you think?

Actually it supports what I said. Just like blue does not oppose red, assertive types do not "oppose" compliant. In the OP you were trying to fit the triads in a negative/neutral/positive line. I'm saying don't do that. The triads represent three different attitudes that cannot be measured on a scale.
Perhaps I've worded things rather peculiarly.

What I mean is, I'd like to know how the system ensures that, while you're being affected by everything, if you're being affected by one thing, you're not affected by another, and I'd like to know how it ensures that there actually IS a system. I don't think it would be very sound if we just took 9 random motivations and made that it. WHY those 9 motivations? The way I understood the system was that there were three Triads, then another three Triads. For every Type in one Triad, there is another accompanying Traid. 3x3 is 9.

Then, I wondered why those Triads worked the way they did. Why Positive Outlook, Competency, and Reactive? Why is it that when we deal with our emotions, we either reduce our emotions to our positive ones, deal with all our strongest emotions, or simply approach our emotions objectively? Do those overlap? If so, do they overlap each other in equal ways to make sure no Type has an advantage over another?

And why would a Type 5 seek Knowledge because they approach their emotions objectively?

The color wheel's red, blue, and green do not overlap as bases. We KNOW that if we are blue, we are NOT green. If we're green, we are NOT red. If we're red, we are NOT blue. If I'm a Withdrawn, why am I not a Compliant? Can't I be all three equally? What marks them as different in a sense that ensures that they don't overlap enough for me to evenly distribute amongst all the Types?
 

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What you're asking is the history of the Enneagram. Why these particular motivations were chosen. Unfortunately that is not my forte. Better minds here can elaborate on how it evolved from Gurdjieff and Ichazo and Narajo into it's modern form.

Remember though that typologies are not all-inclusive, they all have a particular focus. MBTI decides to focus on thinking, feeling, sensing and intuiting. Enneagram focuses on issues of the mind, the heart, and the body. There are issues that neither typologies address, but that is not their goal. MBTI's goal is behavior and personality, Enneagram is on motivations and drives.

Also, don't get caught up with why it is three attitudes and not five. Typologies, rightly or wrongly, apply mathematical bases to the decidedly unmathematical human psyche. Just as how MBTI uses the four dichotomies, Enneagram uses nine motivations. MBTI can be boiled down the kiersy's Four temperaments, Enneagram can be boiled down to three sets of triads. Recognize that these numbers have more to do with theorists' need for order than anything else.

Then, I wondered why those Triads worked the way they did. Why Positive Outlook, Competency, and Reactive? Why is it that when we deal with our emotions, we either reduce our emotions to our positive ones, deal with all our strongest emotions, or simply approach our emotions objectively? Do those overlap? If so, do they overlap each other in equal ways to make sure no Type has an advantage over another?
The terms Postive Outlook, Competency, and Reactive give the impression that someone just plucked random words and applied them to random behaviors. It may easier to think of them in terms of distance. Imagine emotional conflict as a raging bonfire. Reactive types are next to it; emotion burns them, consumes them, they react to it because it's right there. Positive types are farther off. They want to see the positive aspects of the fire (the beauty, the light) without being affected by the negative (the heat and the burning), so they take a step back so the fire is literally minimized in their eyes. Competency types are waay back in the shadows. They see the scene in its wholeness, yet they don't let themselves feel the fire; they shove emotion's warmth away, so it doesn't cloud their judgement.

Your use of "equal" leads me to believe you are still thinking of this as if each attitude has a mathematical value, like 1 and -1. It's not like that. They don't cancel each other out. And whether it is an "advantage" or not depends completely on the circumstances and person.

And why would a Type 5 seek Knowledge because they approach their emotions objectively?
Types Five does not seek knowledge because they approach their emotions objectively. Both their knowledge-seeking and objectivity comes from the same source: their desire for omniscience. Every type has a virtue, something they compulsively strive for, and Fives want understanding more than everything. Why do they want to understated? Because, like Head Types, their primary emotion is fear. Fives fear being engulfed by the world, that they cannot protect themselves from a world that demands too much and gives too little. So, what do Fives do to make reality less scary? Find a strategy, some sense of security like a Six? Distract yourself from it, so you don't face it head on, like a Seven? Fives instead decide to understand it, to make sense of it. Because knowledge is power, and for Fives who feel themselves too weak to survive the onslaught of the world, knowledge is the only power they feel they have. They use their minds to make sense of reality, and they become so cerebral that they keep their wild, irrational emotions at a distance. Their knowledge-seeking did not cause their objectivity; they are both caused out of fear of being too close, too vulnerable, and objectivity gives them enough distance to make them feel safe.

The color wheel's red, blue, and green do not overlap as bases. We KNOW that if we are blue, we are NOT green. If we're green, we are NOT red. If we're red, we are NOT blue. If I'm a Withdrawn, why am I not a Compliant? Can't I be all three equally? What marks them as different in a sense that ensures that they don't overlap enough for me to evenly distribute amongst all the Types?
It's true that red, blue and yellow do not overlap as bases. But we are not bases. We are all shades of brown. All of us can relate to all types, but it's a matter of degrees. An important distinction to make is that people are not types, they have types. You are not a Five, you are a person with a core Five type with other types attached to your tritype. The perfect Five who is perfectly withdrawn, perfectly competent, perfectly objective, does not exist. Your behavior may very well overlap other triads. In fact, most likely it does.

Some of us are Super Duper Withdrawn (triple Withdrawn, 459). That means the majority of times, we act Withdrawn. Likewise, some of us are Xtreme Assertives (378), and others are Completely Compliant (126). The majority of us are mixed. That means that, perhaps 70% of the time, in emotional conflict we assert, but 20% we are compliant and the rare 10% we withdraw. At the very least the nonassertive subtypes may soften the core type, make it less action-oriented.

Since we're going to Metaphor Central, think of the triads as direction. Withdrawn types are drawn towards the world of thought. Assertive Types are drawn to the world of action. And Compliant types are drawn to the world of morals, of rules and principles. Rarely are people in one direction; some people go two steps towards withdrawn but one step toward assertive. And there will always be those people that do one step towards all three. If you've ever been in a situation where you wanted to leave, but also wanted to stay and state your mind, but also wanted to make the most of the situation, then you probably know what that feels. Note that the three don't cancel each other out, they just leave you confused.
 
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