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-nods-

I was starting to think we were the world's most hated MBTI group and pure evil by some comments here. It was like, Damn. How did I not see the Hell Demon peering out through my eyes when I looked in the mirror this morning?

But don't you feel that our inability to understand ourselves at times can also be confusing for other people too? I can understand some of the other thoughts here, in that sense. I feel like we can unintentionally present ourselves the wrong way at times. Especially in moments when we're really socially anxious.
Yea, definitely. We care to adapt to other people and be accommodating, so we will be flexible about as many things as possible, sometimes giving wrong impressions. I'm driven to understand how my feelings work and why they come to be, which from what I've seen is more common in people who are not too high F. Having NTP friends also helps a lot with this, as they are capable of getting me unstuck and pushing me to be more objective and investigative about my feelings, but it takes the will to do this to begin with.

"Identity" isn't something I particularly care about, INFPs like all P types are primarily directed outward to explore the world and it's possibilities, and secondarily where & how they fit in it. I think the idea that INFPs are subjective and focused on the "inner world" is perpetuated by mistyped people, since the MBTI system is based on bad assumptions, but I don't wanna get more technical here.
 

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@DTsuDTsu I can't remember any more if I saw it here in this thread or another thread you created but somebody already mentioned that it's useful to learn Fi and Fe differences for such types as those are quite different worldviews. Understanding INFJ's Fe as a Fi user seems to me a key to understanding INFJ's overall nature as other aspects of personality of INFJ and xNFP are naturally compatible enough. Of course, it works vice versa too not has only one partner required to understand this difference :)

Though, I don't know how aux Fe sees and understands dom Fi, I've only had longer experiences in relationships with dom Fe (suits less) and aux Fe (suits more) as Fi user.
 
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Okay, so this is actually a thing! I mean, the INFJ man I've been talking about is also a Scorpio, so I wondered if it's just his Scorpio nature to be reserved like that, or if the INFJ bit exacerbates it. It did feel like both sort of lent themselves to that. It's sad, though. You guys need some time to talk for sure! What would help you to open up?
I have so far encountered no pattern to suggest that I should believe in astrology, but I start to open up when the following things happen.

a) You show yourself capable of understanding me (some of that is intelligence, but not only)
b) You show that you care
c) You share gradually deeper and more meaningful things about yourself
d) You display some modicum of emotional stability/maturity (I can take a fair bit of darkness though, so it depends)

9 out of 10 people I meet never make it past a). I prefer listening anyway :happy:

Edit: Oh, and I certainly don't wear my heart anywhere near my sleeve. My cardiovascular arrangements look more like this.
 

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I do actually know another INFP with a personality disorder who behaves just like this. (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). She can get really nasty when she thinks she's not getting the attention she deserves - and anything at all can set off that nastiness. But that's the result of her personality disorder, not her type.

However yes, I don't think it's indicative of INFP people as a whole, absolutely not. I agree with you that it's rather opposite our general nature to try to stir all conversation about ourselves.
The "INFP" cognitive preferences don't fit the preferences that would lead to a narcissistic personality disorder. The P symbolises an adaptable person, that will change their understanding, beliefs, etc, intropunitively to adapt to the world. NPDs are the max opposite of that, they are extrapunitive, psychorigid/non adaptable.
 

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I think for me the sticking point is just how INFPs can get too caught up in trying to see themselves or people in general as "good" and trying to use their interactions with others to validate that image which is really ego. It's a barrier, in friendship, in love, in anything. It's a barrier. Then when the INFP is sending love signals it can bring up the question whether that's because of who I really am or just that they love the fact that I'm still a mystery, still a canvas to project onto, still not having earned my three strikes. So it can feel like they love their own fantasy of a person rather than the real person. Fi can feel like it wants a fantasy, either you participate in the fantasy or you'll be cast out from the heavens, back down into limbo.

But it just feels really impersonal, and so not robust, not something you can rely on. It feels like INFP's feelings are not stable because they have not accounted for reality when making that feeling judgment. So you feel like at any moment, with any misunderstanding, a switch could get flipped and the INFP will devalue you. You hope that's not true but you can't help but keep harboring doubts. It makes it hard to say what you really are thinking and experiencing, even though the INFP will be pushing you to do so because they have pre-concluded that they will like whatever you say. I mean they have formed this idealizing judgment of you which is unrealistic and they don't tend to consider ways that it might be unrealistic, they treat it as if it's reality. So this pressure builds up, and it can get to feel stifling, you get caught up between wanting to be loved vs. fearing that who you really are is not the actual target of that love. It's like... it feels like love that wasn't really "earned," it wasn't hard fought, it was just wishful love, love just for the sake of being loving, so it's hard to trust it. In a way it comes off as insincere, not because the feeling isn't really felt, but because the INFP is too eager to feel it, without much concern for whether it is warranted or not.
 

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Funny thing is that I was coming to PerC to rant about some INFP relation I have. I really hope my reply doesn't offend anyone. I will try to be considerate as I can in choosing my words and let me say that my comments are based only one friendship with an INFP so I can't say for sure that the things that annoy me might not be something that every INFP do. However, a month ago I did some digging for old posts on INFJ thoughts of INFP here on PerC and It had alot of replies all mostly saying the same things I am saying. They're probably minor things that other people wouldn't care about.

Anyway. Honestly speaking. I never met a friend that i found as "annoying" as I find my INFP friend and that I kinda get annoyed by almost everything he does which I do not know exactly why! I can't pinpoint what exactly made me start feeling that annoyed by all or any of their actions. we had a good friendship the first couple of weeks I knew him but after that. I just "can't" even though we still talk and I try to be as nice and supportive as I can but I feel like I wanna cut them off but I feel that's just too mean since I honestly don't think he's a bad person and definitely doesn't deserve to be ghosted and I don't like to hurt people even though all i get from the friendship right now is being annoyed. I think i started to get annoyed by them by noticing how much they need everyone's approval and praise in a way. Like if he tells me "I had a bad day" I don't think that having me being supportive is enough. I started to notice that almost everything they tell me about tiny details that happened in their day is on their twitter. Like something would come randomely and he would mention a good deed he did today and of course I praise him for having done something good but then he shares in a very "weird" way how he did this good thing today on his social media accounts and he can even get upset about people not responding or not getting any response back. I just started to notice this and in a way, some people like their social media and I can understand that coming for more extraverted people. But I just don't understand that constant need for praises and affirmation.
I'm not trying to defend his behavior so much as understand it as a fellow INFP. I am also introverted, but I like to use social media to open discussions and convey some of my deeper thoughts. Again, heart on the sleeve issue which doesn't tend to work out well for INFPs, but it's just who we are. :/

Anyway, the social media might be his way to express in words or pictures what he is feeling. And those things will feel precious to him because they possess so much meaning to him. To think that no one at all saw it or maybe feels what he feels probably feels quite isolating and lonely to him. There have absolutely been times when I've shared things on social media that I truly felt conveyed some of my deepest and most precious thoughts. I would feel so happy, as it's very difficult for me to properly convey what I want and need to convey, and it's like, "Ah, FINALLY, I was able to do it!" Then if it seems like no one at all cares or is interested or agrees with it, it can just feel quite lonely. The feeling I always get in that case is loneliness, and I wonder if I'm doomed to be alone in these deep thoughts, if no one else thinks the same way.

It could be like that for him, perhaps? I'm just trying to understand it as an INFP, and I hope it can help if I can provide some possibilities.

Also, I don't doubt for a second that he wants your praise. I think he probably also needs it. The flipside of that is that he very likely loves you dearly (whether as a friend or otherwise), considers your thoughts (and thoughts about him) precious, and thus goes to you about them. I know it might be tough, but please never tell him what you've said here. I do think you'd break his heart and he could get very depressed. :( It's not good to be so reliant on other people's thoughts about you, but I know I have been guilty of it, and I don't doubt he is here.

Again, it could also be a personality disorder. Sounds similar to Narcissistic Personality Disorder to me, and I do know an INFP with this condition. Incessant need for praise, anger and retaliation if one doesn't get it, things like that...But of course we can't know for sure...

The other thing that got me very upset at one point and it just happened again yesterday was he tries to "project" what is on his mind and just acts on it and somehow I am supposed to be apologising for something I didn't do. Like a few months ago for no reason we were talking about something and I didn't have a good day and was probably not very cheerful as I can be sometimes and all of a sudden I get "hey, I will leave you to be now because I don't want you to annoy anymore". So for me to abrubtly end a conversation we're having because you're "assuming" I am annoyed even though I am just having a bad day which you know that I do. it pissed me off.
OOH! I'm guilty of this, too! It's not you, believe me. It's not an attack on you! He feels that he is being annoying and worries that he is upsetting you. He's saying it actually as a kind of apology. I often say this to my friends because I feel so bad that I'm rambling or being down or whatever it is. I'll say things like, "Okay, okay, I'm sorry for rambling. I won't keep bothering you!"

But it's genuinely well-intended. I mean there are times where I could sort of feel that the other person was annoyed, and I've also said things like that then. But I was never angry at the person. More hurt that what I expected to happen (them get annoyed) came true.

I genuinely believe that he was well-intended with you. He probably wanted/needed to talk, could see that you were upset about something, and immediately the rush of worries started in his head. "It's either me and my rambling or something else, but either way it would be better not to keep talking and upsetting her more." He might be totally wrong about your feelings, obviously, but it's really not intended to hurt you! We are incredibly self-deprecating and tend to have low self-esteem. We constantly feel like our presences are little more than annoyance to people. (And indeed, in some replies to this thread, those concerns aren't exactly unwarranted, as clearly we are!) But I want you to know AS an INFP what our side is like. I really don't think he meant to hurt you, and I'm sorry it came across that way! :(

Of course I don't like to be mean again. So i just responded firmly why would you assume I am annoyed when I am not? why not just ask me? Why not better assume that as I said I was having a bad day so maybe I am just talking with no care because I am having a bad day? and this happened again yesterday. He messages me to ask how is my day and I sent a message saying "I will probably disapper for the next couple of weeks so don't take it personally if I don't talk much because I have some financial difficulties and I am not in the mood to chat". Again, all of a sudden, he's saying how no one care about him and no one cares if his day was good or bad even though I told him "I hope you're having a good day" at the end of my message. and again I asked firmly "You're saying no one cares about you, do you think I don't care about you?" which he just deflected and said "I am just tired and I will go to bed.".
Dammit, I can see this all playing out, hahaha! And I feel so sorry for you both!! WOW! Communication is incredible, though.

Again, it's not you. You were being honest. INFP is just too sensitive - and I feel I can say that. ;) Again, because we're always doubting ourselves and often feel that people don't like us (for whatever reason, but social awkwardness doesn't help), we're always prepared to think that if something goes wrong, it's our faults. Your message was just pure honesty about what was happening in your life, but he might well have taken it as, "Oh my God! I upset her so much that she doesn't want to talk to me for a long while! I knew it! I feel so stupid and upset and confused..."

Yeah...we can be a tough bunch. We overthink to the MAX. Those kind of words would have me thinking, too.

What he needs to learn to do (as I am learning) is to not take everything personally. (Another INFP flaw.) He needs to develop more self-love and understanding that others, including his good friend YOU, communicate differently. That if you are saying something, you are saying it directly and honestly. You wouldn't lie to him. Do you think you could sit down with him and talk to him about this? Let him know that this is just how you communicate and that you want him to know that it is NEVER about him (your choice to take a break, for example). If you can help him to learn to separate himself from what people say, to not worry that it's an attack on him or him not being good enough (and that if it ever is, the person is not worth his time anyway), etc. Does that make sense?

It's not your job to coach him, of course, so don't feel you have to. Just, if you care about him and want to help him through some of his annoying habits, it could be good. I am enjoying learning this process as an INFP myself. It actually feels GOOD to learn not to take everything personally. :) I hope he can, too!

I just don't understand why I get this after I literally said that I have financial issues and won't be able to talk much and somehow it transformed into me not caring about his day that I was forced out of guilt to continue talking to him for a few hours even though I was not in the mood for that at all. These two points are the main things that annoy me. But other stuff like him being very touchy and like hugs and cuddles and ....etc. which is something I really don't like. for example. I would never be able to be in an actual relationship with someone who is that touchy and feely because I don't like to be like that.
I'm sorry...I know it sucks! :(

As for the touch-feely bit. HAHAHA! I'm so sorry about that, too. I wonder if that IS an INFP thing. I do like it, but only with people I really, really trust.

In fact, only with a love partner I really, really trust. Hmmm...This might be unique to him? Or I might be a weird INFP.

hopefully that's not offensive to anyone. I usually just give examples of things that annoyed me because it's better than just stating INFP are this or that.
No, you weren't offensive at all! You're talking about how his behavior (or how you perceived it) made you feel, which is precisely what I was hoping to hear. So thank you for that honest and the consideration about how your words come across. Genuinely appreciated, and I hope you take good care!
 

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I see. Thank you for sharing. If I were you, I'd save this post for reference, maybe add it to your signature (inside spoilers maybe).
That would be weird.

It is also interesting to think that everyone would expect to encounter a rather different emotional/conversation culture if they travelled to your part of the world, but online, especially on US-dominated boards like PerC, people tend to expect something more ... American, I suppose. Places like PerC do need to have some common rules of course. You may want to consider sharing where you are from, although I understand why you wouldn't.
If a USA citizens would travel to where I live, they would surprise to see some man cry just because someone unfortunately raped and their is other men who try to emotionally support the man who cries and feel sorry for the rape victim and the guy who is crying for it, and while walking around the streets, the USA citizen would surprise to see an African family that try to enjoy their life, and around another corner, Asians is in hurry to reach somewhere, then the USA citizen would enter a store and see a friendly Arabian asking "how was your day" with a warm smile and then the USA citizen start to walk where they suppose to return, perhaps while they were in process of return, they would feel sorry for homeless Syrians that escaped from war and would be annoyed because of some rich AF Syrians that walking like they own the world. When the moon show his beautiful face, monsters awakes and wait for their prey in the shadows therefore I hope this USA citizen is prepared to defend their life because it could be their last night just because they might get killed by a kid who is left in a street while he was a baby just because his family couldn't afford to feed one more mount therefore they left him on street and some thugs took him an made him a criminal. I hope they would be considered of this fact while they defend their life and try to find a way to not hurt the kid if they care for his life of course.

Because where I live, there are different kind of people therefore everyone has their own reality. It's a good place to improve your Fe. It's not so different from the USA but some USA citizens seem anti-emotional and easy to be enemy with each other, I don't know. Perhaps it's because of the past of the USA.

And yes, if there is anything you can do to remember how other people in places like PerC might perceive your words, it would most likely be worth the effort. I think too many on PerC, you often come across like this when that almost certainly isn't your intention.
To me, my messages mostly seem like;



Because where I live, I learned a different kind of emotional expression depending on different situations therefore most people have their own subjective way to express their own emotion and it really seems different and ill if you not used to live in a place where there is different kind of people from a variety of culture.
 

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What's so interesting about your ex-wife is; your wife perhaps really suffer from any emotion related disorder if she is really a Fi-Se user. I mean, as far as I know, Fi-Se users sometimes very sensitive to negative emotions, even more than Fi users, therefore they may be very grumpy and very selfish especially under any slightest stress. If that's the case perhaps having low EQ and using Fi-Se functions may lead to emotion related disorders. I'm no doctor but I kinda see a pattern now.



It's definitely because of the culture I grew up and my past. I mean, where I live, people can express their negative emotions and they don't really take it personally. But of course, sometimes people here too misunderstand and take it personally and be enemy of you. We are very emotional people and we can easily understand if someone has ill intent or not therefore that's why in my culture we are more honest with our expression of negative emotions.

But in other societies (especially USA), because psychology is popular, people try to find mental illness in your every behavior. For example, I was discussing if Sigmund Freud is right and wrong about his thought about ego with a USA citizen, she avoided my questions (I wanted to learn her own opinion and made it very clear) and said I have an ego problem and shared some Wikipedia articles like how she is right. In my culture, we openly discuss scientific stuff and it's very objective discussing as much as we can. We want to learn, not try to be right therefore we explore possibilities like how a good scientist would do. But because of culture difference people misunderstands. Perhaps this is because, in my culture, we teach kids how to think like a scientist, we don't force information like it's true but perhaps in the USA, they just force you information and expect you to believe them, I really have no idea.

But it doesn't mean by behavior is acceptable because of my culture (not everyone here is negative and honest about their emotions like I'm). I'm not trying to be a drama queen but, I've some bad experienced in life and I still suffer the after-effects of this past. No, I don't suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, but sometimes I realize I'm in the mood of fighting a war that ended a long long time ago, like I'm a soldier and people in front of me are my enemies. Sometimes I don't realize if I'm in such mood. Perhaps this happens because of my bad genes and my personality that shutdowns my emotions automatically and prefers to be a cold analytical scientist.

Because I have a very high EQ (no I'm not trying to ego masturbate, it's not something that I would feel good about it. I have a point to make), the doctor said, I don't realize; some people are not good at dealing with their emotions as much as I do. I mean, I'm not get upset from some negative emotions as much as some people do therefore I may hurt their feeling even though it's not my intent because sometimes I don't aware how much I'm negative because I mistakenly think it's okay but in reality I'm like beating people with words. Because of my cold analytical side, I can be a very annoying person.

So, people may think I'm angry just because I write "fuck" and whatnot but in fact, it's my way to share my slightest negative emotion. Sometimes I behave like it because of my weird sense of humor (my avatar for example). Some people are very black and white about emotion detection therefore they may think what I expressed is hate, but there is a lot of negative emotion like helpless, defeated, annoyed, dislike, disturbed, etc. and there is some emotions I feel that has no word for it like "I love you and I hate myself for treating you like this like you deserved this particular behavior but I assure you, you deserve the best and I'll do my best to be helpful to you but I'm not capable to treat you like how I think you deserved the best treatment because shit happens and I'm sorry for it". I can feel a lot of different kind of emotions but people can't understand it and sometimes best way for me to express emotion is cursing to avoid making explanation of what I really feel because some cursing words sums up the emotion I feel about particular subject if I can use such words in the right time and if people can understand it.
There is a Lot that I Hate about this country culturally and it is a test of one's endurance just to live here. I remember as a kid that it was different and people got along better but sadly post 9/11 things have gone down hill. The people have changed and the society here is just bullshit as all there is just work and more work until you either retire or kick the bucket early.
 
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Because where I live, I learned a different kind of emotional expression depending on different situations therefore most people have their own subjective way to express their own emotion and it really seems different and ill if you not used to live in different kind of people from a variety of culture.
Yes. As you know, I've lived in all sorts of places, and to me, places like PerC are "abroad" ... so I adjust and adapt my expression so as to avoid misunderstandings.
 

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That would be weird.



If a USA citizens would travel to where I live, they would surprise to see some man cry just because someone unfortunately raped and their is other men who try to emotionally support the man who cries and feel sorry for the rape victim and the guy who is crying for it, and while walking around the streets, the USA citizen would surprise to see an African family that try to enjoy their life, and around another corner, Asians is in hurry to reach somewhere, then the USA citizen would enter a store and see a friendly Arabian asking "how was your day" with a warm smile and then the USA citizen start to walk where they suppose to return, perhaps while they were in process of return, they would feel sorry for homeless Syrians that escaped from war and would be annoyed because of some rich AF Syrians that walking like they own the world. When the moon show his beautiful face, monsters awakes and wait for their prey in the shadows therefore I hope this USA citizen is prepared to defend their life because it could be their last night just because they might get killed by a kid who is left in a street while he was a baby just because his family couldn't afford to feed one more mount therefore they left him on street and some thugs took him an made him a criminal. I hope they would be considered of this fact while they defend their life and try to find a way to not hurt the kid if they care for his life of course.

Because where I live, there are different kind of people therefore everyone has their own reality. It's a good place to improve your Fe. It's not so different from the USA but some USA citizens seem anti-emotional and easy to be enemy with each other, I don't know. Perhaps it's because of the past of the USA.



To me, my messages mostly seem like;



Because where I live, I learned a different kind of emotional expression depending on different situations therefore most people have their own subjective way to express their own emotion and it really seems different and ill if you not used to live in different kind of people from a variety of culture.
The old stiff upper lip isn't American in origin, its a British disease that sadly spread to the rest of the anglosphere long ago.
Issues like this don't cycle out easily and require significant cultural changes to take place before there is any real improvement. There isn't much choice once one gets passed it all as other people here don't like emotional men at all so people like myself are at disadvantage from the start worse still if you are introverted and slower paced than the mindless hurr durr of modern society. I don't see it getting better at least in the short term and the long term I will probably be the dirt under the hill by then.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Yea, definitely. We care to adapt to other people and be accommodating, so we will be flexible about as many things as possible, sometimes giving wrong impressions. I'm driven to understand how my feelings work and why they come to be, which from what I've seen is more common in people who are not too high F. Having NTP friends also helps a lot with this, as they are capable of getting me unstuck and pushing me to be more objective and investigative about my feelings, but it takes the will to do this to begin with.

"Identity" isn't something I particularly care about, INFPs like all P types are primarily directed outward to explore the world and it's possibilities, and secondarily where & how they fit in it. I think the idea that INFPs are subjective and focused on the "inner world" is perpetuated by mistyped people, since the MBTI system is based on bad assumptions, but I don't wanna get more technical here.
Yes, a certain amount of will involved, absolutely! The good thing is that INFP people can be very passionate, so I do believe we can absolutely have the drive to want to evolve and become better! It can be very exciting!

I also agree with what you said about mistyping. I'm almost obsessive about exploring the world outside and its possibilities, and yes, where and how I fit into it all. We have a rich inner world, I do believe, but it's not only that! I think that just tends to offer more possibility.

Thanks for bringing more viewpoints about INFPs in here, too! :)

@DTsuDTsu I can't remember any more if I saw it here in this thread or another thread you created but somebody already mentioned that it's useful to learn Fi and Fe differences for such types as those are quite different worldviews. Understanding INFJ's Fe as a Fi user seems to me a key to understanding INFJ's overall nature as other aspects of personality of INFJ and xNFP are naturally compatible enough. Of course, it works vice versa too not has only one partner required to understand this difference :)

Though, I don't know how aux Fe sees and understands dom Fi, I've only had longer experiences in relationships with dom Fe (suits less) and aux Fe (suits more) as Fi user.
No, I agree completely! This is quite valuable, especially if one is going to have a relationship with someone who uses Fe! I'm actually going to do some research into how to better develop that. I'm already working on self-improvement, and developing new understanding is a sincere goal. Thank you so much!

I have so far encountered no pattern to suggest that I should believe in astrology, but I start to open up when the following things happen.

a) You show yourself capable of understanding me (some of that is intelligence, but not only)
b) You show that you care
c) You share gradually deeper and more meaningful things about yourself
d) You display some modicum of emotional stability/maturity (I can take a fair bit of darkness though, so it depends)

9 out of 10 people I meet never make it past a). I prefer listening anyway :happy:

Edit: Oh, and I certainly don't wear my heart anywhere near my sleeve. My cardiovascular arrangements look more like this.
:laughing:

As for Astrology, I've had too many experiences with it to discount it, although I don't understand how it can be, just that it somehow is. (And I don't mean "Sun signs" and "Horoscope" and all that. I like the complicated birth chart stuff. :))

The "INFP" cognitive preferences don't fit the preferences that would lead to a narcissistic personality disorder. The P symbolises an adaptable person, that will change their understanding, beliefs, etc, intropunitively to adapt to the world. NPDs are the max opposite of that, they are extrapunitive, psychorigid/non adaptable.
That's a good point...But they also know how to make it seem like they can adapt to everyone around them, and in some sense, they do, even if it's fake. They know social cues very well and just how to adapt. I wouldn't think an INFP is capable of being an overt Narcissist, but a Covert for sure. I also just don't think that INFP is the only group who could have a personality disorder. Just, the person in the example one member shared seemed more like a Narcissist rather than a standard INFP person, but if she really was an INFP....hmmm.
 

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It's very true! Although I do feel like INFP/INFJ men are as rare a breed as they are said to be. The idea of a man who isn't afraid to be human and vulnerable, to possess emotions, and really feel things around him...That is almost Godly to me, it seems so rare and precious!

And hahaha, well, I'm very happy to hear that about your INFP male friend. Good for him! He's not too socially anxious? I wonder if that's just an issue for some of us more than others.

And don't sell yourself short! I am sure you would be an absolute magnet if people knew all the beautiful things within! But I do feel that INFJs tend to hide that, don't you? I'm generalizing now, but I do feel that the group members tend to be too hard on themselves. INFPs can be like that, too, of course, but I think the enjoyment of being "unique" or "strange" helps a bit.
The problem is that society doesn't like emotional men especially if those emotions are expressed strongly, I read around of women liking emotional men but my experience has been the opposite. Most men don't like emotional men either seeing and treating us as weak and women like so HSP people have put up an act to appear or vibe off as being normal. I don't enjoy having to shutdown and put up an act just to appear somewhat normal. Gets worse if you happen to be spiritual as that spooks the normies.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
I think for me the sticking point is just how INFPs can get too caught up in trying to see themselves or people in general as "good" and trying to use their interactions with others to validate that image which is really ego. It's a barrier, in friendship, in love, in anything. It's a barrier. Then when the INFP is sending love signals it can bring up the question whether that's because of who I really am or just that they love the fact that I'm still a mystery, still a canvas to project onto, still not having earned my three strikes. So it can feel like they love their own fantasy of a person rather than the real person. Fi can feel like it wants a fantasy, either you participate in the fantasy or you'll be cast out from the heavens, back down into limbo.

But it just feels really impersonal, and so not robust, not something you can rely on. It feels like INFP's feelings are not stable because they have not accounted for reality when making that feeling judgment. So you feel like at any moment, with any misunderstanding, a switch could get flipped and the INFP will devalue you. You hope that's not true but you can't help but keep harboring doubts. It makes it hard to say what you really are thinking and experiencing, even though the INFP will be pushing you to do so because they have pre-concluded that they will like whatever you say. I mean they have formed this idealizing judgment of you which is unrealistic and they don't tend to consider ways that it might be unrealistic, they treat it as if it's reality. So this pressure builds up, and it can get to feel stifling, you get caught up between wanting to be loved vs. fearing that who you really are is not the actual target of that love. It's like... it feels like love that wasn't really "earned," it wasn't hard fought, it was just wishful love, love just for the sake of being loving, so it's hard to trust it. In a way it comes off as insincere, not because the feeling isn't really felt, but because the INFP is too eager to feel it, without much concern for whether it is warranted or not.
Thanks for the reply!

I can see how it could be a barrier for sure. Because of course things are not really like that, and so when they go wrong, it hurts tremendously, and we often (rather than realizing it was just always that way and we were being too idealistic) feel like the person/people related to the situation were being needlessly cruel, horrible, whatever it might be.

For my part, I love a good mystery, but I value stability far more. So it's okay for me to unravel the mystery and be happy with what I have left - the good and the bad. I just need stability and to know that the person will always be there for me. I'm not saying I don't put people on pedestals - I know I do! - but I feel like it's not always true that we're going to get bored if there's no more mystery or fantasy or something like that.

For the other part, that's a tough one! I can see what you're saying, but I don't know how to respond or who to handle such a situation! Oof! But if this is an INFJ's perception of the situation, I'm not entirely sure there is anything an INFP can do to change it. The two would really have to care for each other and trust!

Very nicely-worded, and thank you for sharing!
 

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Discussion Starter #54
The problem is that society doesn't like emotional men especially if those emotions are expressed strongly, I read around of women liking emotional men but my experience has been the opposite. Most men don't like emotional men either seeing and treating us as weak and women like so HSP people have put up an act to appear or vibe off as being normal. I don't enjoy having to shutdown and put up an act just to appear somewhat normal. Gets worse if you happen to be spiritual as that spooks the normies.
Well there's one INFP woman out there who adores you guys! And though I know it must feel like a rarity, I'm positive there are more, too.

Don't you feel like it's such a waste of human life to pretend to be something you're not? I'm not saying you're doing that, haha, just commiserating with ya. I mean, society's strict enforcement of gender roles and "how things are" and all that...How is it even human to go through life without emotions? Where is the joy in the experience if we're constantly pretending to be something we're not and don't want to be? Ugh, it's just sad!

Emotional men make far better fathers and partners, in my opinion! And amazing people in general!

Keep on spooking the normies - you've got a beautiful soul in there!
 

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Well there's one INFP woman out there who adores you guys! And though I know it must feel like a rarity, I'm positive there are more, too.

Don't you feel like it's such a waste of human life to pretend to be something you're not? I'm not saying you're doing that, haha, just commiserating with ya. I mean, society's strict enforcement of gender roles and "how things are" and all that...How is it even human to go through life without emotions? Where is the joy in the experience if we're constantly pretending to be something we're not and don't want to be? Ugh, it's just sad!

Emotional men make far better fathers and partners, in my opinion! And amazing people in general!

Keep on spooking the normies - you've got a beautiful soul in there!
Exactly and this world feels like a prison because of society, try being the shamanic sort when the machine like western mind lock stock and barrel deems such people to be obsolete. The total lack of empathy in people disturbs me the most and I still struggle to fully understand the coldness of people these days.
 

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Yes. As you know, I've lived in all sorts of places, and to me, places like PerC are "abroad" ... so I adjust and adapt my expression so as to avoid misunderstandings.
Yeah, I've a lot to learn and be experienced as you are. I suppose I have to compomise to adjust and adapt without losing my real self.
 

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@The Edwardian Spirit

I never even visited the USA but for some reasons, I know a lot about how bad the country is and I really feel sorry for the whole country even though I really dislike the country, its society, some of USA citizens etc. as some people have realized from some of my messages. I really wish for a better future for the USA and for the world but I'm not Jesus unfortunately therefore only I can do is defend what I can.
 

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The old stiff upper lip isn't American in origin, its a British disease that sadly spread to the rest of the anglosphere long ago.
No no, like many things in Britain we took / adopted it from other places.
The ideal of the stiff upper lip can be traced back to Ancient Greece and the Stoic school of philosophy founded by Zeno of Citium.
Greek philosophers like Heraclitus and Socrates, as well as the Spartans were some of the biggest inspirations.

The Roman empire of course took it on board too, and it continued to spread. The concept arrived in England much later actually, but once it did become big in England the English public school system was definitely heavily inspired on it (it's become less strict over time - no more corporal punishment). So I get why we get associated with stoicism but we're not the originators of the ideal.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Exactly and this world feels like a prison because of society, try being the shamanic sort when the machine like western mind lock stock and barrel deems such people to be obsolete. The total lack of empathy in people disturbs me the most and I still struggle to fully understand the coldness of people these days.
-nods-

It really does, doesn't it?

And it's amazing, yes! The world seems only to be getting colder and colder, making empathy out to be this undesirable (and seemingly rarer and rarer) trait. I can't imagine we're headed anyway good as a society if we keep up at this rate!
 

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Many thanks, guys! I'm looking forward to any input you can give me! :heart: I know our dreaminess levels can probably make even the best people want to run headlong into a brick wall.
Heya, dear INFP.

I know the struggle from both sides. You know what sucks ass? How different INFJ vs INFP are, but how they tend to reach the same destination through on different paths, but only to have a fall out due to the difference and arguing on how one way is better than the other.

I like INFPs. I like them way more than INFJs. I often make this distinction between INFJ and INFP. INFJs are dark on the outside and sunny on the inside, while INFPs are sunny on the outside and dark on the inside.

I am sort of brooding to the outside world, but deep down inside I think happy puppies and sunny days and stuff like that.
The INFPs I met are all cheery on the outside but have these darkish tones on the inside and they think of stuff that creeps me out.

Anyways. I always found it easy to connect with INFPs. It sparks right away or it blows right away. Some INFPs can't seem to fit my personality, but I find a lot do. But, as always, it ends up in some sort of dispute over the way we reach the same result on the different paths.

INFPs tend to be very stubborn. Bless your hearts, you amuse me and your artwork and imagination makes me envious. I can merely visualize the things but you're very good at putting it all together. Your imagination and energy make me thing of my childhood when I was quite happy and innocent and in my own world playing. There is something that is refreshing to see and experience.

But you tend to get offended way faster than I can and I often feel left out. And when I seek explanation it is already too late because you feel so offended to the core that I may as well be marked as non-grata. It feels so bad man. Even on the forum, the talks I had with some INFPs were very enjoyable only to turn salty due to some overdose of independence/individuality from the INFP side. And I'm like, but what did I do wrong? Ugh. It's nice, but so hard to maintain a relationship with one INFP.

So, what could you do? Well, fine, take offense, be angry, feel hurt. But please, always come back to discuss and settle things. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to try to talk to you guys only to be shut down when trying to reconnect. It's always a bitter sweet taste after the whole friendship/romance ends with you guys.

Another thing you need to negotiate is your raging authenticity. I know you are very individualistic and stuff, but it would do us both well to tone it down just a bit. I for one, don't like it when the INFP just runs away into the world as if forgetting I exist. A relationship of any kind implies some sort of continuous connection. You can't be in a relationship and act as if you're not. If you alter your personality a bit you're not letting go of something that is you, you just make some room for a partner. It's like sharing a bed. You scoot a bit over for the other person to fit. You cannot be fully autonomous while still demanding a relationship. You need to adjust and mature in such a way that you can allow a relationship to thrive.

But don't think that this is one sided. You also need a sufficiently grown up INFJ that can understand that this goes both ways. INFJs tend to be as stubborn as INFPs are so this cannot work if this philosophy is not shared.

Other than that, I have no recommendations. I always enjoy INFP company. Or at least I stop by the side of the road and watch INFP play (drawing, art, discussions) and just observe. Like I do on the INFP forums. I visit and take a look at what you people are up to.

It frustrates me how much I wish to interact with INFPs only to end up in some stupid dispute about absolutely non-sense or be put off by their almost punishing independence.
 
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