[mintyphoenix]

I'm adventurous and very much outwardly so. I've got this friend who I've finally gotten close to, due to a fair amount of chance, but she's really interesting. I've never had anyone like her in my life before. She doesn't share much, but what I've managed to extract convinces me that she might be even more daring and incredible than I am! And smarter and wiser, obviously, though I'm hardly shabby myself.

I wrote all this down and gave it to her, and she seems to have taken it well. I come off strong, and my words are even more glaring, but she's doing a lot of things to protect me and comfort this tortured soul. Not the reaction I was expecting. She helps more than anything I've tried or hypothesized. I almost don't know how to react when she swings her arm on my shoulder and walks on. I'm only familiar with high-fiving, superficial external emotion. But this is so much better. I can separate everything else for the moment, which is something I can never do. And my thoughts don't race. She's a living soothing opiate. I've never been luckier.

My excellent, valiant ISFJ's, I know her tensions and troubles equal mine at the least. She made me burden her. There's something so easy and accessible to her, that I can tap into deep-set issues that I don't let anyone know about. But how do I reciprocate? I hate how I might make her feel used, and myself, for being so narcissistic and needy.

Thanks for your time and perspectives! Best of luck saving the world, and would-be-heroes like me! I run straight for the fire.

 

[teddy564339]

Not all ISFJ's are the same, but if she's like me, I would say the biggest thing is to make sure you tell how much you appreciate her and what she does for you, especially when she does things you value. Just make sure she knows you love, appreciate and value her. It's also helpful to be a good listener any time she has any problems, issues or concerns that she wants to vent about.

 

[mintyphoenix]

Fairly straightforward. Alright, just keep open about communication then, which I always do. No dramatic gestures? That's too bad. Those are my favorite to orchestrate.

But why does she hide her problems from me? I understand the not wanting to be a burden thing, but it doesn't burden me at all. In fact, watching her suffer gives me much more pain.

 

[teddy564339]

But why does she hide her problems from me? I understand the not wanting to be a burden thing, but it doesn't burden me at all. In fact, watching her suffer gives me much more pain.

Well, first of all, you have to make sure this is clear to her if you haven't already. You have to very clearly spell out to her that you would much rather her confide in you rather than watch her in pain.


But how you respond to her when she tells you her problems is also very important. I think this thread spells out my feelings on that pretty well:

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-for...listen-rather-then-solutions-corrections.html



So sometimes it takes an ISFJ a while to get completely comfortable opening up to someone. For me, I have to know that I'm not bothering the person, and I also have to know that they won't try to change me or judge me, just accept me for who I am.

 

[mintyphoenix]

Ok, thanks. I'm going to read through that thread.

What I am concerned with is if I have gotten myself in unnecessary danger trusting so much and easily. I confide in people I deem thoughtful and compassionate. I've never been exploited or betrayed, because my strong intuition has never been wrong before when it came to choosing friends. I've been extremely careful. I constantly evaluate and refine my choices, test them too. But I can't so much get a read on this ISFJ. So, are you guys deceitful at all? Because I just realized how much damage she is capable of doing, if she ever became spiteful...

And that would crush me, with pulverizing force.

I think she's great, but is that part of your darkness? For us, we get darkly moody and cynical. But we don't really lash out.

 

[teddy564339]

But I can't so much get a read on this ISFJ. So, are you guys deceitful at all? Because I just realized how much damage she is capable of doing, if she ever became spiteful...

And that would crush me, with pulverizing force.

I think she's great, but is that part of your darkness? For us, we get darkly moody and cynical. But we don't really lash out.

Trigun64 kind of mentioned this a little in this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-forum-nurturers/31424-not-being-taken-seriously.html

One of the problems that people do not realize is that ISFJ's have the capacity to just destroy people because of there Si. We had, if provoked, the ability to just go over every imperfection and every deep seated concern that another has, and just bring those to the surface and utterly humiliate and degrade someone. We do not do this, because its not the right thing to do. Thats one of the things that make ISFJ's interesting, we have this powerful and horrible ability that is balanced out by our nature.

People are so trusting of us that sometimes they do not even realize it. I have had people talk to me, and then when I bring up something we talked about later, they can not believe that they shared that with me. People also take this trust for granted. They will just pour out all of their problems and concerns on and ISFJ, but whenever an ISFJ needs someone, it is very hard to get them to listen.

The biggest thing that happens for ISFJ's is that we bottle up emotions too long and then they come bursting out in one big wave of negativity. So ISFJ's in general do need to practice healthy ways of sharing our problems and letting out our emotions.


I don't know if deceitful is the right word for the ISFJ dark side...I think maybe disingenuous would be a better word.

 

[sts06]

The biggest thing that happens for ISFJ's is that we bottle up emotions too long and then they come bursting out in one big wave of negativity. So ISFJ's in general do need to practice healthy ways of sharing our problems and letting out our emotions.

I agree with this. I've said this elsewhere too, but I know that I need to talk to people or else if I let it go for too long it does come out in this huge wave (and a lot of 'old' resentments will turn up). I have some 'safe people' I vent to on a regular basis to avoid this kind of blow up too often.

mintyphoenix: I think it's safe to trust an ISFJ but if they are anything like me you would need to talk things through with them, and notice when they are getting stressed, or else they could let loose with the devastating things they know when they do explode. Now I know that for me personally, I can bring those things back up to the person but I wouldn't betray the confidence to anyone else, so the explosion will be at the person concerned, not to a third party. I don't know if that helps your fears or not, but even if I get spiteful I don't tell other people things about anyone.

 

[mintyphoenix]

Ok, thanks. I understand that you are not malicious, which is reassuring.

But this part scares me greatly:

"We had, if provoked, the ability to just go over every imperfection and every deep seated concern that another has, and just bring those to the surface and utterly humiliate and degrade someone. We do not do this, because its not the right thing to do."

I'm not the provoking, pushy, mean type, so I don't think I would be the cause of her ever losing control. And facing her wrath afterward. But I have witnessed her manipulating me by exploiting my values, catering her argument to my Achilles's Heels. I was not happy with her when she tried that to get her way. I still head steadfast and staunchly refused. But she succeeded in making me feel terrible.

She knows too much though, truths that are best left buried. The public would have a field day if some of this stuff came out. And I'm really camera shy.

 

[mintyphoenix]

Sts, you did allay my worst fears.

"Now I know that for me personally, I can bring those things back up to the person but I wouldn't betray the confidence to anyone else, so the explosion will be at the person concerned, not to a third party. I don't know if that helps your fears or not, but even if I get spiteful I don't tell other people things about anyone."

I'm ok if she wants to use it as shot if she's aiming it at me. It'd just be horrifying if she told the world. I realize she would have to be absolutely sinister to do this... To me, she's lovable and angelic. Since SJs are unfamiliar territory for me, I want to get a better feel for you guys. You know, just in case.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Means a bunch to me.

 

[Bigbrother87]

Personally, even if I did blow up at someone over many, many problems, I would NEVER air their problems out to the world.

I am a good listener and confidant for my friends, someone they can talk to and know it will go nowhere. In fact, my girlfriend was actually surprised that the innocent comments she makes haven't made there way to anyone else, that I'm a "black hole."

A great example is when I was assisting a friend on a school film and I started chatting with one of the actors about video games. The conversation developed and led to him talking about his home life and close matters to his heart, and he commented "why am I telling you this? I don't usually, you just seem like someone to talk to." That chance conversation has actually developed into a possible friendship that I look forward to pursuing.

Do I, personally, unburden myself easily? No. I have few friends I share by burdens with, and those I do talk to, when I REALLY really need to, have earned that privilege through years of close friendship. Now, none of those friends actively pursued my inner thoughts and sought to unburden me, like you are seeking to do, but it still takes time.

Just a few of my thoughts, take them as my personal experience and thoughts on this subject, nothing more.

 

[mintyphoenix]

That's the thing. I don't know if she has close friendships where she can unload all of the bleakness she must feel sometimes. She told me she moves around a lot. And she's been through a lot.

It's inexplicable. I've felt this kind of connection and followed it maybe 7x in my life, and due to circumstances, the other 5 or so who this appealed strongly to me got away. However, those 7 have been invaluable and influential in shaping my identity, mindset, opinions, wondrous life today. How to describe the feeling. It's as if you're ultra super intriguing to me, and I'm like a moth to a bonfire. You just have to be my best friend! And I pay so much attention and interest that eventually, I get all of that back.

It hasn't happened for 3-4 years, which is why this one is more irresistible than ever. And also, I've never had this much trouble charming anyone before. It's like she doesn't appreciate what I think are my more flattering qualities: spontaneity, happy-go-luckiness, impulsive and dramatic acts/displays of affection.

? Help me interpret. What goes on behind that composed mask she wears fused to her face?

 

[mintyphoenix]

Bigbro, why would you/her feel like you need to earn it? Don't you see, you/she already have? It's no privilege at all. I'm a modest person of modest means. I think this grammar is more confusing than the sentiment, but you get the gist of it. Y'all are highly intelligent and fine communicators when it comes to clearing up the mysteries of your ways, and I appreciate it immensely, even if I don't voice it. I get swept up with the serious elements and engrossed. But my comments are never meant to be attacking or aggressive. Moderate the tone where the English language puts my thoughts harshly.

But I'm curious/amused, what would you need to do for me in order to feel you deserved it? Rescue me from a burning skyscraper? Deliver my first-born child? Protect me from a pack of savage wolves by shooting arrows into their hearts? Because I'll orchestrate these scenarios and make sure she steps into them before the denouement; I asphyxiate in the first one's outcome.

 

[teddy564339]

It's like she doesn't appreciate what I think are my more flattering qualities: spontaneity, happy-go-luckiness, impulsive and dramatic acts/displays of affection.

I'll be honest in saying that these qualities aren't appealing to me either. Not to say I can't appreciate them or see the value in them...but they're not something I can relate to at all and not something that I think I could base a friendship off of. They actually sound more ENFP or ESFP-like to me.

I do have an INFP friend who I'm decently close with, though we're also co-workers, which gives us a good bit in common off the bat. I think what I like about with him is that I feel overall very comfortable around him...I don't feel like I have to be anybody, I don't have to impress him, I can just be myself. I think it's due to us both being introverted and feeling males...we don't feel pressured to be social, and we don't feel pressured to "act tough". We can just say what's on our minds. I'm a huge dork and geek, and a lot of the things I like to do are pretty geeky. With someone people, I feel like I get judged for that, so I never share them and don't open up. With him, I can tell him the things I like and he generally responds positively.

That's not to say that we don't have differences. He's always thinking about big picture things and is really politically minded, whereas those things don't appeal to me much (but I often humor him and listen and sometimes discuss it with him since I know it's important to him). He also cracks a lot more jokes than I do, and he has no problem teasing me or others (and again, I'm ok with that since I trust him and know that he accepts me and that it's all in fun). Finally, I am in general more uptight than he is and he's more go with the flow, but other than a few jokes every now and then, he accepts that about me and doesn't let it get in the way of our friendship. And that's an area where we help each other out...he understands that sometimes he needs to buckle down and get things done, and I understand that sometimes I need to loosen up and not worry so much.


So I think the thing is...those strengths you mentioned really aren't something that appeals to an ISFJ personally. We have dominant Si....we like consistency, we like simplicity, we like to know what's coming and have things planned out. Even though my INFP friend doesn't strongly do the things you mentioned, I can see them in him a little...and I would say that we're friends despite those things, not because of them.


So I guess something that helps is to find the things you do have in common and focus on those. That way the differences won't be as big of a deal.

 

[mintyphoenix]

"And that's an area where we help each other out...he understands that sometimes he needs to buckle down and get things done, and I understand that sometimes I need to loosen up and not worry so much."

I'm amazed at this aspect of her. She's efficient, like a fighter jet, whereas I'm a creaking pickup truck that's leaking motor oil while cruising at 40mph in a zig zag pattern that often takes me offroad.

I accept her wholeheartedly, just want to give her hugs all the time. But am not sure if that'll be comfortable for her, so I keep the squishing to myself.

"He's always thinking about big picture things and is really politically minded, whereas those things don't appeal to me much (but I often humor him and listen and sometimes discuss it with him since I know it's important to him). He also cracks a lot more jokes than I do, and he has no problem teasing me or others (and again, I'm ok with that since I trust him and know that he accepts me and that it's all in fun)."

This is spot on! I know when she tries, because I can still tell she's disinterested as I'm chattering animatedly. Her facial features will betray her true feelings. But I love that she makes an effort. Must really care, I can tell. And that strengthens the bond, from my side, at least.

I don't know if I'm careful enough with my teasing though. Sometimes, I try new things, and they don't come off at all the way I intended. I don't get much of a reaction either way, but it's more that I can't inhibit myself from making flamboyant connections. I hope she can handle it, because I can't tone it down, especially when I'm happy.

Thanks for the insight! Will try to be more of a rustic homebody around her.

 

[Bigbrother87]

Bigbro, why would you/her feel like you need to earn it? Don't you see, you/she already have? It's no privilege at all. I'm a modest person of modest means. I think this grammar is more confusing than the sentiment, but you get the gist of it. Y'all are highly intelligent and fine communicators when it comes to clearing up the mysteries of your ways, and I appreciate it immensely, even if I don't voice it. I get swept up with the serious elements and engrossed. But my comments are never meant to be attacking or aggressive. Moderate the tone where the English language puts my thoughts harshly.

But I'm curious/amused, what would you need to do for me in order to feel you deserved it? Rescue me from a burning skyscraper? Deliver my first-born child? Protect me from a pack of savage wolves by shooting arrows into their hearts? Because I'll orchestrate these scenarios and make sure she steps into them before the denouement; I asphyxiate in the first one's outcome.

Unfortunately, in my case, it's not any ONE thing any of my closest friends has done. As per usual, though, Teddy has thoughts close to mine, and here's what I can add with my own experiences.

I also have an INFP close friend/coworker, and that close friendship developed first through contact amongst our group of church friends. Then when it was found out he lived out near me, and since I didn't have a car, I'd get the opportunity to catch a ride home with him.

We've both mentioned that we miss those trips now, when it was just a time to talk about anything. He spoke about more than I did, but there were times when he got to listen to me, if I really needed to talk to someone. We're coworkers now at a production company, I'm the nitty-gritty, Various and Sundry, get it done to keep everything moving guy, and he's the last guy to touch a project because he's best at making everything look great. I'm a doer, he's a creator. We appreciate that about the other person, and attempt to use it to better the company.

For me at least, I think it's time. It's proving yourself, even when you'll do right anyway, in any number of small ways over X amount of time. X may be shorter than you think, since your friend may find herself with something to talk about at any time.

I know that when I had a problem one time, I ran down the list of all of my friends in my head, comparing past situations and their reactions to the support I felt I needed then. At that particular time, I came up with one name who would likely answer their phone and help me. Was that the INFP friend? In that case, no, because he had many projects at work to do and didn't want to bother him.

Oh, that's another problem. I, personally, have a horrible time valuing myself over what my friends are doing. "I want people over, but F1 is working, F2 might be working, F3 possibly has family over, F4 might have homework and F5 may be too busy? Guess I won't be calling any of them then."
Yes, I realize that that attitude is not good or healthy for me, and I'm working on it, but I bring it up to say that I can't count the number of times I've said something to them like "oh, you can't make it because of that? I understand, I hope you have fun." Hang up, and then feel irrationally hurt and ill-valued. Do I hope they have fun and in my mind understand completely why they can't make it? Yes, but it still hurts sometimes.

I see that I've rambled a bit, sorry. I guess a bottom line would be that my best friends are those who value me as me, accept me as me, and try to make it a point to be there in small and large ways, over a short/long period of time.

What does that give me? One possibly ISFP Girlfriend, ENFJ and INFP best friends, one INFJ friendship I want to pursue, a handful of untyped but highly valued people in my life, and a lot of other valued acquaintances that haven't yet had the chance to take any steps toward something deeper.

 

[Narrator]

Concerning appriciating qualities in others...I'm going to paraphrase Hitch, there isn't one girl in this world who wouldn't secretly love to be swept off her feet, so grand or romantic gestures can be a big hit, but generally security and consistency are good.

The few INFPier people I've known, I've been close to - and I've felt an intrinsic trust and safetey with them. Even if things don't get expressed, though they probably do, there's alot of affection there.


To feel like recieving affection is okay...It depends on the person, the kind of affection, what state I'm in at the time. Never, or rarely when I've got a guilty conscience. I guess the best kind of affection is when it feels pure but not too openly and pushily connected, too much empathy or feelery care or when the person is very concerned with doing exactly the right thing can be too much, and not with huge or crazy momentum that'll turn to anger if it's not recieved right. When there's a lack of judgement.

 

[mintyphoenix]

I'm pleased with how our friendship is growing. She's got a sharp eye, which thankfully she has stopped using at me, (does that indicate progress? Even gentle criticism was quite hurtful to me.) and is strategically tactical in a way that even the most decorated general would marvel at. Saved me from stumbling into a puddle of vomit while I was watching children and dogs frolic in the park. Very grateful for that.

And I finally got it out of her that she perceives that I don't like her cooking, with a melancholy, "But you don't like my cooking...", that slipped out the other day. Damn, hate that I made her feel that, which I quickly tried to reassure her that that wasn't the case. I just don't really like to eat. Find it a chore, which makes sense to most of my type... But I don't think she believes anything that comes out of my mouth. Would you know it? "I'm too nice." In actuality, I'm a throughly terrible person. Mean, dishonest, cruel, I lock plenty of people out... I have lots of bad moments.

I am puzzled though by how she can seem like 2, 3?, drastically different people. 1 of these, the true self I hope, fits snugly with the idealized mold of her that I have imagined of her, based on my observations over a long period of time and diverse interactions. The kindness and dedication to others that I've witnessed her give is unparalleled. That's why I selected her as one of my "special people". But the other modes that she occupies for a longer time, I am distrustful of. They demonstrate ordinariness and sadly, even the rare bout of corruption. Crosses my values. Find it alarming.

She's charming and hilarious and makes me feel elated, but I can't pretend the other stuff isn't going on, even if she keeps it away from me, another example of her tact... I can see this veering off course if I jump into a misguided attempt to save her, which is my instinctual response.